UK pensions

[chiang mai]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

C M.

cant you understand that someone who has worked all his life paid all his taxes and his NI , and expected a pension ,then finds out at the time he comes to a country to live outside Britain ,is not going to get what he paid in for ,especially when he reads that some low life has just walked through the Channel tunnel ,gets welcomed with a flat ,benefits and health care , especially as he has just been told that when he is home he is going to have to pay 150% of the cost of his national health treatment ?

and please dont say you knew you would not get your full pension , because 99% of us did not have a clue ,its not as if the govt shouted it from the rooftops ,it was just hidden away in the small print .

Yes IC I can and do understand that, a person who has worked all their life and paid in etc., had an expectation that wasn't met. But there's not many years between us you and I, we're broadly the same age so we both started out at roughly the same time, working and paying in. Perhaps that's where the similarities end IC because I told myself in my mid 30's that I wasn't going to rely on a state pension from any country, I was going to earn and save my retirement funds independent of those things, if the pensions came about at retirement time they would be gravy, a bonus.

The second difference is that I saw most of what's happening now, coming down the tracks like a steam train, the independent financial guys were shouting it from the roof tops and it was being written about weekly in the broadsheets. The data was all there and nothing was hidden so I knew it was inevitable that pension ages would have to rise and amounts be reduced (even with the new state pension), simply, an ageing population with too many people taking money out of the system and fewer people paying in. And of course, I also knew (because it was public knowledge and not hidden) that I wouldn't get annual pension uplift each year in Thailand, that had already been in place for some time so no surprise there.

Lastly on this point, you only need look at the pension and expat rule changes that are being adopted in other countries to see the writing on the wall and see some of what could easily be in store for us. Earlier in the thread I cited an example of what changes the US government had implemented regarding pensions/expats and that's just one example; look at Australia and see what's happening there, yes I know it's a different system but the same principles apply, in Aus. they stop paying pension entirely if you're outside the country for more than a set period and it's Aus. Immigration that notifies the Pensions folks as they pass through the Arrivals hall!

What has happened with the NHS and expats I did not see and could never have guessed, I maintain that is one of the bigger crimes against expat pensioners that any government has inflicted.

Refugees and asylum seekers, what happens with them and benefits is not my business and I don't really care because it doesn't affect me.

[jpinx]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

If health, pensions, and a few other small items are itemised separately, what comes under "Welfare". ???

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

If health, pensions, and a few other small items are itemised separately, what comes under "Welfare". ???

Benefits ! Edited January 30, 2016 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[jpinx]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

If health, pensions, and a few other small items are itemised separately, what comes under "Welfare". ???

Benefits !

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

those with a basic state pension and a generous occupational pension

<snip>

I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

I would like to change the phrase "generous occupational pension" to "hard-earned occupational pension"

...just so that it doesn't sound like we don't actually deserve it.

[evadgib]

"hard-earned occupational pension"

Many still shudder upon hearing this...

Edited January 30, 2016 by evadgib

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

After 47 years of employment and retirement only after a major operation,my personal crusade is to live as long as possible and squeeze as much pleasure as possible out of my hard earned and yes, my well deserved occupational pensions. In the words of the song "tonight I'm going to party like it's 1999"

[kingalfred]

I agree

[i claudius]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

C M.

cant you understand that someone who has worked all his life paid all his taxes and his NI , and expected a pension ,then finds out at the time he comes to a country to live outside Britain ,is not going to get what he paid in for ,especially when he reads that some low life has just walked through the Channel tunnel ,gets welcomed with a flat ,benefits and health care , especially as he has just been told that when he is home he is going to have to pay 150% of the cost of his national health treatment ?

and please dont say you knew you would not get your full pension , because 99% of us did not have a clue ,its not as if the govt shouted it from the rooftops ,it was just hidden away in the small print .

Yes IC I can and do understand that, a person who has worked all their life and paid in etc., had an expectation that wasn't met. But there's not many years between us you and I, we're broadly the same age so we both started out at roughly the same time, working and paying in. Perhaps that's where the similarities end IC because I told myself in my mid 30's that I wasn't going to rely on a state pension from any country, I was going to earn and save my retirement funds independent of those things, if the pensions came about at retirement time they would be gravy, a bonus.

The second difference is that I saw most of what's happening now, coming down the tracks like a steam train, the independent financial guys were shouting it from the roof tops and it was being written about weekly in the broadsheets. The data was all there and nothing was hidden so I knew it was inevitable that pension ages would have to rise and amounts be reduced (even with the new state pension), simply, an ageing population with too many people taking money out of the system and fewer people paying in. And of course, I also knew (because it was public knowledge and not hidden) that I wouldn't get annual pension uplift each year in Thailand, that had already been in place for some time so no surprise there.

Lastly on this point, you only need look at the pension and expat rule changes that are being adopted in other countries to see the writing on the wall and see some of what could easily be in store for us. Earlier in the thread I cited an example of what changes the US government had implemented regarding pensions/expats and that's just one example; look at Australia and see what's happening there, yes I know it's a different system but the same principles apply, in Aus. they stop paying pension entirely if you're outside the country for more than a set period and it's Aus. Immigration that notifies the Pensions folks as they pass through the Arrivals hall!

What has happened with the NHS and expats I did not see and could never have guessed, I maintain that is one of the bigger crimes against expat pensioners that any government has inflicted.

Refugees and asylum seekers, what happens with them and benefits is not my business and I don't really care because it doesn't affect me.

Actually I do not have to live on my pension as I have enough to make life easy,but and a big but ,I paid in ,I want what I paid for,as for Australia well they did not pay in every week for their pensions ,so it is a benefit not a right,so anyone claiming it living here is the same as someone on the social claiming while living here.. the govt pension is mine bought and paid for ,we want it. ALL of it

[sandyf]

<snip>

those with a basic state pension and a generous occupational pension

<snip>

I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

I would like to change the phrase "generous occupational pension" to "hard-earned occupational pension"

...just so that it doesn't sound like we don't actually deserve it.

The top end occupational pensions are predominantly civil servants and would stand by the original phrase.

If however you have managed to obtain a generous pension from industry or the rank and file services then well done.

[billd766]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

C M.

cant you understand that someone who has worked all his life paid all his taxes and his NI , and expected a pension ,then finds out at the time he comes to a country to live outside Britain ,is not going to get what he paid in for ,especially when he reads that some low life has just walked through the Channel tunnel ,gets welcomed with a flat ,benefits and health care , especially as he has just been told that when he is home he is going to have to pay 150% of the cost of his national health treatment ?

and please dont say you knew you would not get your full pension , because 99% of us did not have a clue ,its not as if the govt shouted it from the rooftops ,it was just hidden away in the small print .

Yes IC I can and do understand that, a person who has worked all their life and paid in etc., had an expectation that wasn't met. But there's not many years between us you and I, we're broadly the same age so we both started out at roughly the same time, working and paying in. Perhaps that's where the similarities end IC because I told myself in my mid 30's that I wasn't going to rely on a state pension from any country, I was going to earn and save my retirement funds independent of those things, if the pensions came about at retirement time they would be gravy, a bonus.

The second difference is that I saw most of what's happening now, coming down the tracks like a steam train, the independent financial guys were shouting it from the roof tops and it was being written about weekly in the broadsheets. The data was all there and nothing was hidden so I knew it was inevitable that pension ages would have to rise and amounts be reduced (even with the new state pension), simply, an ageing population with too many people taking money out of the system and fewer people paying in. And of course, I also knew (because it was public knowledge and not hidden) that I wouldn't get annual pension uplift each year in Thailand, that had already been in place for some time so no surprise there.

Lastly on this point, you only need look at the pension and expat rule changes that are being adopted in other countries to see the writing on the wall and see some of what could easily be in store for us. Earlier in the thread I cited an example of what changes the US government had implemented regarding pensions/expats and that's just one example; look at Australia and see what's happening there, yes I know it's a different system but the same principles apply, in Aus. they stop paying pension entirely if you're outside the country for more than a set period and it's Aus. Immigration that notifies the Pensions folks as they pass through the Arrivals hall!

What has happened with the NHS and expats I did not see and could never have guessed, I maintain that is one of the bigger crimes against expat pensioners that any government has inflicted.

Refugees and asylum seekers, what happens with them and benefits is not my business and I don't really care because it doesn't affect me.

Actually I do not have to live on my pension as I have enough to make life easy,but and a big but ,I paid in ,I want what I paid for,as for Australia well they did not pay in every week for their pensions ,so it is a benefit not a right,so anyone claiming it living here is the same as someone on the social claiming while living here.. the govt pension is mine bought and paid for ,we want it. ALL of it

I agree with you 100%.

Freddie Mercury and Queen had a hit with this.

[sandyf]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

If health, pensions, and a few other small items are itemised separately, what comes under "Welfare". ???

Benefits !

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

About our decision

We have decided that you are entitled to a UK State Pension at the weekly amount of £000.00 from 1 September 2012. This is based on your own UK National Insurance contributions.

[jpinx]

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

About our decision

We have decided that you are entitled to a UK State Pension at the weekly amount of £000.00 from 1 September 2012. This is based on your own UK National Insurance contributions.

=========================

Getting glibber You have to love the wordsmiths - - but you may also be "entitled" to many other "benefits"

[JetsetBkk]

The top end occupational pensions are predominantly civil servants and would stand by the original phrase.

If however you have managed to obtain a generous pension from industry or the rank and file services then well done.

Yes, civil servants' pensions ARE generous and, I believe, still index linked.

Mine WAS from industry, but was near enough what I was told it would be and was what I paid into, every month. So I still would not call it "generous" . It was "as promised" .

Also, and similar to "i claudius", I never took the old age pension into consideration when calculating my income after retirement. It was always going to be "a nice little extra", but since the GBP has devalued from 74 to 52 baht, the "nice little extra" has become not so nice .

[evadgib]

Mine too will be spending money but like everyone else i'm a fully paid up member of the NI club whether I liked it or not.

[loppylugs1]

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

[jpinx]

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

You mean --- ".....gets pension credits stopped.."

I only correct you to try to prevent a few heart-attacks

[JetsetBkk]

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

3. Eligibility

Guarantee Credit

To qualify for Guarantee Credit:

you must live in Great Britain

you or your partner must have reached Pension Credit qualifying age

The qualifying age for Pension Credit is gradually going up to 66 in line with the increase in the State Pension age for women to 65 and the further increase to 66 for men and women.

Savings Credit

To qualify for the extra Savings Credit you or your partner must be 65 or over.

Youre treated as a couple if you live with your husband, wife or partner. You dont have to be married or in a civil partnership.

You cant get Pension Credit if you move abroad permanently.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility

[jacky54]

can somebody explain why local authority pensions which are funded by the govt and council tax pay increases yearly where ever you live but state pensions only do so to those living in countries with this reciprocal agreement? Why is one different from the other? they have both taken money out of your pay packet every month

Edited January 31, 2016 by jacky54

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

can somebody explain why local authority pensions which are funded by the govt and council tax pay increases yearly where ever you live but state pensions only do so to those living in countries with this reciprocal agreement? Why is one different from the other? they have both taken money out of your pay packet every month[/quote

It's a question without an answer!

[loppylugs1]

very glib! haha!!

But didn't someone else point out that pensions are now classed as a benefit? As opposed to a "right" -- even though you've pre-paid it,,,

That is open to interpretation, there is no dispute that some sources refer to it as a benefit. The Pension Service however do use the word 'entitled' and I would say that is from the horses mouth.

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

You mean --- ".....gets pension credits stopped.."

I only correct you to try to prevent a few heart-attacks

As I read it,the pension itself is stopped,but that's only people on pension credits,actual OAP for someone not on credits will not be effected

[jpinx]

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

You mean --- ".....gets pension credits stopped.."

I only correct you to try to prevent a few heart-attacks

As I read it,the pension itself is stopped,but that's only people on pension credits,actual OAP for someone not on credits will not be effected

That is a worry for many -- do we have any other reference to this "stoppage of the basic pension" anywhere else.? I can't find any reference to that. The basic pension has always been an absolute right until you die, only the "extras" can be stopped.

Edited January 31, 2016 by jpinx

[evadgib]

can somebody explain why local authority pensions which are funded by the govt and council tax pay increases yearly where ever you live but state pensions only do so to those living in countries with this reciprocal agreement? Why is one different from the other? they have both taken money out of your pay packet every month

Why not submit an FoI request?

Slightly off topic but here's how their reply might go

Jeremy Paxman's infamous Michael Howard interview ...

Edited January 31, 2016 by evadgib

[loppylugs1]

Just terminology,"benefit" "entitlement"..which ever. Cannot be stopped,adjusted,paid back,or reduced,but maybe suspended until whatever address you wish to add,or proof of life is established,when suspension will be lifted and payments restored and paid back

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

You mean --- ".....gets pension credits stopped.."

I only correct you to try to prevent a few heart-attacks

As I read it,the pension itself is stopped,but that's only people on pension credits,actual OAP for someone not on credits will not be effected

That is a worry for many -- do we have any other reference to this "stoppage of the basic pension" anywhere else.? I can't find any reference to that. The basic pension has always been an absolute right until you die, only the "extras" can be stopped.

Its there ,someone has posted the details,it is the guaranteed pension, where not enough NI have been paid,and you are entitled to a minimum £155 or whatever the amount will be in April...its the 4 weeks out of the UK or refined the GB it will be stopped that is not published

[loppylugs1]

Four weeks,three times a year maximum as I read it out of GB,seems funny ,not UK Pretty sure there will be stringent checks on this one

[jpinx]

Four weeks,three times a year maximum as I read it out of GB,seems funny ,not UK Pretty sure there will be stringent checks on this one

Ouch -- so if you want a few months in balmy Portrush you're going to lose everything. What about the British residents there? This really is not making any sense at all.........

[sandyf]

The new 2016 pension is quite onerous on pension credits, anyone out of the UK for longer than 4 weeks,gets pension stopped.

The government have really pulled a fast one on the Pension Credit scheme. I was on pension credit when I was 61, the eligible age was based on the female retirement age, 60 at that point in time. That meant that men on a low income were eligible in the 5 year period prior to state pension age. By equalising the retirement age that income top up has been removed.

In those days you were allowed 13 weeks abroad before the credit became subject to investigation, if the reason for being abroad was valid, say for medical treatment, then you continued to receive the credit.

There was a bonus to the scheme that was never advertised, when you ceased to be eligible, payment continued for a further six months. Not sure if that is still in place or not. As soon as I sold my house I returned to Thailand and payments continued for the 6 months.

The Pension Credit was introduced in 2003 by Gordon Brown to replace the Minimum Income Guarantee(GMI) which he had introduced in 1997. The GMI was not age related so how far away have they deviated from the original concept.

[Ricardo]

Ah but if you're out of the UK for more than four weeks at-a-time, you might be enjoying yourself too much, and that would never do !

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Ah but if you're out of the UK for more than four weeks at-a-time, you might be enjoying yourself too much, and that would never do !

Particularly so if they suspect that you are spending your time sipping pino colada's while lying on the beach in the arms of your 18 year old ,sexy supermodel girlfriend. I suspect that retirees to Belarus or the Ukraine get their pension increase,no problem.

[jacky54]

if they ever do upgrade it will probably be the pressure from those retiring back to Pakistan and India rather than us lot, can't have them 'discriminated' against