Racism Against Farangs

[arthurwait]

I had an unsettling experience today. The Mia and I live in a Thai style condo in BKK, I am the only farrang in the building and I havent seen any in or around the area we live. As we left the building and entered the soi I noticed a guy staring at me intently, I nodded at him and he screamed at me. I have limited Thai so I asked the mia what he said? She replied that she didnt understand him but not to worry because he was just a stupid rude man, which means she didnt want to translate it for me.. I have been abused before but usually its followed by laughter or its whispered which dilute the threat. But as I said I dont know what he said but the manner he spoke upset me, he screamed at me with such venom and hatred that the incident haunted me all day.

I realised then that we interact with Thai thousands of time without incident or malice but it only takes one bad incident to ruin your day and has the potential to spiral into violence that could ruin your life.

I don't know if it will help but referring to your wife as mia is low so or bar girl talk. Try "pal e a." It is the polite way to say wife.

Pan ra ya.

[kerryk]

I had an unsettling experience today. The Mia and I live in a Thai style condo in BKK, I am the only farrang in the building and I havent seen any in or around the area we live. As we left the building and entered the soi I noticed a guy staring at me intently, I nodded at him and he screamed at me. I have limited Thai so I asked the mia what he said? She replied that she didnt understand him but not to worry because he was just a stupid rude man, which means she didnt want to translate it for me.. I have been abused before but usually its followed by laughter or its whispered which dilute the threat. But as I said I dont know what he said but the manner he spoke upset me, he screamed at me with such venom and hatred that the incident haunted me all day.

I realised then that we interact with Thai thousands of time without incident or malice but it only takes one bad incident to ruin your day and has the potential to spiral into violence that could ruin your life.

I don't know if it will help but referring to your wife as mia is low so or bar girl talk. Try "pal e a." It is the polite way to say wife.

Pan ra ya.

Could be. Depends. I hear Pa li ya.

[arthurwait]

Once I was on a bus stuck in traffic on the express way and bored, I decided to utilize my time doing my nails and got my nail varnish out.

It was an aircon bus so I thought it could not be that much of a bother smell-wise, especially that we were surrounded by traffic smoke anyhow.

I had not done one hand than a guy looking angry, came to me that he smelt (pêêt), in great length.

I did not get everything obviously, but sensed a lot of hostility for an act which for me seemed quite banal.

Anyway I had promptly stop, put my varnish away, and waited for the end of the lecture politely.

End of the story ?

Nooooo

what I did was apparently VERY VERY reprehensible.

So bad that he went to tell the ticket assistant guy, who came and lectured me about the really horrible nasty nature of my action in a vehement and loud manner so the all bus could hear.

After that I put my Ipod on, and try to forget the all drama.

Apparently someone still had not forgotten about it, because when I look over my shoulder, the guy who told me off the first time (and who was seating much further back from) had come to my row and was sneaking on me to find out if I was still doing it (doing my nails)

I met his gaze and there it was again a THIRD litany about how bad I was to dare to apply my nail varnish on a public bus, which I was not doing anymore anyway but still he found it appropriate to sermon me it about it.

He came a few times to check on me if as if I would have the idea to start my nail routine again.

I think he was just hoping that I would do it again so he could shout at me some more, but I did not give him that satisfaction.

Great ! I thought : We were on the express way, so no one could get off, and I had a hater on my back

He carried on 3 or 4 times like this : snooping on me to check what I was doing, passing me and glancing angrily at me.

I had enough, got up and told him to leave me alone.

I wanted to complain for moral harassment to the ticket guy too, but obviously could not because I was already the " nail varnish bad farang girl", and my thai being minimal, I sensed it would have lead to more aggravation.

So I got yet another loud and angry lecture in front of the all bus. It was the 5th time and I starting to feel humiliated, so I answered him. In English, I did not care if he did not understood me, it did not seem to bother him that I did not get half of his litanies, but may be some people in the bus would understand me and I wanted them to hear a bit of my say.

I told him that I had stopped it ages ago and that he should leave me alone now. He did not obviously, it made things worse, as I knew it would, but I fell better now that I finally said something too.

The all thing was just getting absurd.

I could see how angry he was and that it had not much to do with nail varnish, it was just for him an opportunity to shout his anger and frustration at foreigners. I waited patiently a fifth time that he finished vomiting his hatred and prayed to arrive in town soon.

No one in the bus, said anything, and I was really relieved when we finally arrived at destination and I could get out of his horror of a huis clos

How is this racist ?

[arthurwait]

I had an unsettling experience today. The Mia and I live in a Thai style condo in BKK, I am the only farrang in the building and I havent seen any in or around the area we live. As we left the building and entered the soi I noticed a guy staring at me intently, I nodded at him and he screamed at me. I have limited Thai so I asked the mia what he said? She replied that she didnt understand him but not to worry because he was just a stupid rude man, which means she didnt want to translate it for me.. I have been abused before but usually its followed by laughter or its whispered which dilute the threat. But as I said I dont know what he said but the manner he spoke upset me, he screamed at me with such venom and hatred that the incident haunted me all day.

I realised then that we interact with Thai thousands of time without incident or malice but it only takes one bad incident to ruin your day and has the potential to spiral into violence that could ruin your life.

I don't know if it will help but referring to your wife as mia is low so or bar girl talk. Try "pal e a." It is the polite way to say wife.

Pan ra ya.

Could be. Depends. I hear Pa li ya.

It will get said something like pan la a or pan la ya or as you say when said quickly due to the the lazy r thing. I've not heard that many people use it instead of Mia. My wife would cut my balls off if I said Mia though. She also hates pua.

Edited April 12, 2012 by arthurwait

[brit1984]

Once I was on a bus stuck in traffic on the express way and bored, I decided to utilize my time doing my nails and got my nail varnish out.

It was an aircon bus so I thought it could not be that much of a bother smell-wise, especially that we were surrounded by traffic smoke anyhow.

I had not done one hand than a guy looking angry, came to me that he smelt (pêêt), in great length.

I did not get everything obviously, but sensed a lot of hostility for an act which for me seemed quite banal.

Anyway I had promptly stop, put my varnish away, and waited for the end of the lecture politely.

End of the story ?

Nooooo

what I did was apparently VERY VERY reprehensible.

So bad that he went to tell the ticket assistant guy, who came and lectured me about the really horrible nasty nature of my action in a vehement and loud manner so the all bus could hear.

After that I put my Ipod on, and try to forget the all drama.

Apparently someone still had not forgotten about it, because when I look over my shoulder, the guy who told me off the first time (and who was seating much further back from) had come to my row and was sneaking on me to find out if I was still doing it (doing my nails)

I met his gaze and there it was again a THIRD litany about how bad I was to dare to apply my nail varnish on a public bus, which I was not doing anymore anyway but still he found it appropriate to sermon me it about it.

He came a few times to check on me if as if I would have the idea to start my nail routine again.

I think he was just hoping that I would do it again so he could shout at me some more, but I did not give him that satisfaction.

Great ! I thought : We were on the express way, so no one could get off, and I had a hater on my back

He carried on 3 or 4 times like this : snooping on me to check what I was doing, passing me and glancing angrily at me.

I had enough, got up and told him to leave me alone.

I wanted to complain for moral harassment to the ticket guy too, but obviously could not because I was already the " nail varnish bad farang girl", and my thai being minimal, I sensed it would have lead to more aggravation.

So I got yet another loud and angry lecture in front of the all bus. It was the 5th time and I starting to feel humiliated, so I answered him. In English, I did not care if he did not understood me, it did not seem to bother him that I did not get half of his litanies, but may be some people in the bus would understand me and I wanted them to hear a bit of my say.

I told him that I had stopped it ages ago and that he should leave me alone now. He did not obviously, it made things worse, as I knew it would, but I fell better now that I finally said something too.

The all thing was just getting absurd.

I could see how angry he was and that it had not much to do with nail varnish, it was just for him an opportunity to shout his anger and frustration at foreigners. I waited patiently a fifth time that he finished vomiting his hatred and prayed to arrive in town soon.

No one in the bus, said anything, and I was really relieved when we finally arrived at destination and I could get out of his horror of a huis clos

How is this racist ?

Maybe a Thai girl was also doing her nails on the bus while all of this was going on... or maybe it is just another example of Analien's "is it coz I iz black?" mentality...

[KKvampire]

It's the Thai thinking all Falangs are rich. they do give us a sneer if we have a seat on a bus or BTS MRT when it should be a Thai seat, Of course I pay tax in Thailand , (one more month) and still have to pay for other benefits which Thais get for free , whereas Thais get these benefits in my country if they are paying Tax, Twas ever thus, but sure I've had enough as well,

Edited April 12, 2012 by KKvampire

[HeavyDrinker]

...and indeed there are such Thai - Chinese Associations nationwide so they clearly identify themselves as such.

Skinner wrote much about this especially in his seminal Chinese Society in Thailand: An Analytical History. (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1957)

[RakJungTorlae]

this thread reminds me of eating fried rice when your not hungry at all. thinking witch vegetable or meaty bit to much on and at the same time it looks and smells like $h!T

[Kananga]

It was a simple question. Find us an academic text that mentions skin color and nose shape and body proportions to identify ethnicity.

Ok, I will. When you apologise for calling me a racist.

[kerryk]

...and indeed there are such Thai - Chinese Associations nationwide so they clearly identify themselves as such.

Skinner wrote much about this especially in his seminal Chinese Society in Thailand: An Analytical History. (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1957)

Skinner wrote, There are also no sharp differences in physical appearance between the Chinese and Thai. This situation, Skinner argued that, made full assimilation possible (Skinner, 1957:299-300)

The only ones who can tell the difference between Thais and Chinese are our racist friends.

[waza]

Actually what we call ethnic Thai were originally from China and replaced the aboriginal ethnic groups. These were the Dai people, The Dai people are valley-dwelling rice cultivators of China's southwest frontier. The name "Dai" has been used officially since 1953 to replace "Tai" or "Thai." (Tai Lü: ᦑᦺᦟ; [d̥ai˥˩], Tai Nüa: ᥖᥭᥰ; [d̥ai˥], Chinese: 傣族; pinyin: Dǎizú) is one of several ethnic groups living in the Xishuangbanna Dai Autonomous Prefecture and the Dehong Dai and Jingpo Autonomous Prefecture (both in southern Yunnan, China), but by extension can apply to groups in Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, and Burma when Dai is used to mean specifically Tai Lue, Chinese Shan or even Tai in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand#Etymology

[RakJungTorlae]

isent it racest to say "all asains look the same"? this skinner dude dug him self a hole on that one.. never the less i don't like those bob Marley looking Asians.

[kerryk]

By this we can clearly see that Skinner could see there were differences, just not 'sharp' ones.

So what are the differences that Skinner saw?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Ok here we go.

Everyone take a guess at which one is the ethnic Thai Chinese one because poor old kerry is oblivious and thinks anyone who can spot this is a racist. Lets hope he doesnt or that will make him a racist too! Remember, according to kerry both races are indistinguishable.

From an objective scientific point of view there is no hard and fast definition - it is mostly a sociological construct determined by perception.

Where populations coexist geographically and freely co-mingle, the observable distinctions of phenotype will start to break down. Obviously one can observe that higher-class Thais tend to be taller and have whiter skin, but it would be impossible to dependably distinguish between say a north-central tall and white-skinned Thai with no recent-Chinese DNA and one without.

It is true that short and dark Thais probably share DNA characteristics to a higher degree with each other than they do with the tall lighter-skinned Thai. However it would be completely impossible to divide the population into clearly-defined "boxes" by race. Just as most "black" Americans - those who self-identify as such have in fact a minority of pure-African ancestry, and a certain percentage of Greeks, Italians and Spaniards, who most Americans would consider Caucasian actually have a higher percentage of African DNA. It's just a perceptual construct based on social conditioning, not a scientifically supportable distinction.

Even though the locals certainly think they can make such distinctions, they are not just based on phenotype, but also language patterns, names and actual biographical details. All of my Thai students have mostly Chinese ancestors, but they consider that to be a minor detail, AFATAK they are Thai. Many poor upcountry peasant Thais would consider their "Chinese-ness" to be significant, and would privately express some resentment about the class differences.

So yes, these categories are "real", but only in the same sense that Buddhism is real - a creation of the human mind.

[Maestro]

I have deleted some flames and the replies to them.

[Kananga]

By this we can clearly see that Skinner could see there were differences, just not 'sharp' ones.

So what are the differences that Skinner saw?

I have no idea what the non sharp differences that Skinner saw were. If he were here today I am sure he would share them with us. If you are suggesting that if I cant list the differences there are none when skinner clearly uses the word sharp then you are fooling no one.

That would be like saying that there are no sharp differences between a whopper and a big mac. They are indeed similar and the whopper could assimilate into the McDonalds menu, but because I didnt list the inclusion of mayonnaise and exclusion of mustard in the whopper they must be the same when they clearly have differences. I cant believe I have to use the cheeseburger analogy to get this into your head.

What abou the pictures. Did you spot the odd one out?

[kerryk]

By this we can clearly see that Skinner could see there were differences, just not 'sharp' ones.

So what are the differences that Skinner saw?

I have no idea what the non sharp differences that Skinner saw were. If he were here today I am sure he would share them with us. If you are suggesting that if I cant list the differences there are none when skinner clearly uses the word sharp then you are fooling no one.

That would be like saying that there are no sharp differences between a whopper and a big mac. They are indeed similar and the whopper could assimilate into the McDonalds menu, but because I didnt list the inclusion of mayonnaise and exclusion of mustard in the whopper they must be the same when they clearly have differences. I cant believe I have to use the cheeseburger analogy to get this into your head.

What abou the pictures. Did you spot the odd one out?

Perhaps it was clothing style or food eaten or games played while an infant. In other words you don't know if Skinner saw any physical differences. I am sure if he had he would have mentioned them. Sharp difference is only a word to allow some leeway in discussion and may be language or shoe preference. It would not have been physical appearance because he would not have wanted the racist tag placed after his name. The Nuremberg trials would still have been fresh in his mind.

[Kananga]

By this we can clearly see that Skinner could see there were differences, just not 'sharp' ones.

So what are the differences that Skinner saw?

I have no idea what the non sharp differences that Skinner saw were. If he were here today I am sure he would share them with us. If you are suggesting that if I cant list the differences there are none when skinner clearly uses the word sharp then you are fooling no one.

That would be like saying that there are no sharp differences between a whopper and a big mac. They are indeed similar and the whopper could assimilate into the McDonalds menu, but because I didnt list the inclusion of mayonnaise and exclusion of mustard in the whopper they must be the same when they clearly have differences. I cant believe I have to use the cheeseburger analogy to get this into your head.

What abou the pictures. Did you spot the odd one out?

Perhaps it was clothing style or food eaten or games played while an infant. In other words you don't know if Skinner saw any physical differences. I am sure if he had he would have mentioned them. Sharp difference is only a word to allow some leeway in discussion and may be language or shoe preference. It would not have been physical appearance because he would not have wanted the racist tag placed after his name. The Nuremberg trials would still have been fresh in his mind.

Ok, fun is over. Time to shut you down.

you don't know if Skinner saw any physical differences

Neither do you

Sharp difference is only a word to allow some leeway in discussion and may be language or shoe preference.

Maybe? So you don't know. This therefore is merely your opinion. Mine is different.

It would not have been physical appearance because he would not have wanted the racist tag placed after his name.

This is also merely your opinion. Mine is different. Perhaps he did see them, but didnt mention them because like you assume, he didnt want a racist tag from the overreacting ignorant rantoids. So he just let us know subtly he was aware of differences by using the key adjective that is 'sharp'. Makes sense to me, or he would have just said there were no differences. Especially if he was worried about a racist tag like you assume.

The Nuremberg trials would still have been fresh in his mind.

And you know this for a fact? Where exactly does Skinner mention this. He doesn't. You just made it up.

Goodnight.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Kananga

[Tywais]

Post commenting on moderation removed.

[smokie36]

Great thread....only another 20 pages to go. Take a deep breath!

[balo]

Fascinating story by the OP . If only she could spend 20k on poor Thais or find a family to adopt instead of wasting it on soi dogs.

Human lifes are more important to save . 20k would help a lot of people in the Bangkok slums...

I live cheap to , travel with local buses and trains , never had a problem , mostly smiles wherever I go .

Edited April 12, 2012 by balo

[StreetCowboy]

I used to see everything in black and white, to save on the license fee, but in fact it was just monochrome shades of grey. At the end of the day I couldn't tell where the black became white and vice versa.

If you really want to dredge up racist dogma, you ould probably do worse than refer to the regulations and guidelines used in apartheid South Africa. They went to a lot of effort to make it work.

SC

[Gary A]

To get back on topic, I think some farangs here are seriously paranoid. Confusing dual pricing with racism is way off the mark. As far as actual racism, if it exists, I ignore it to the point that I don't even notice it.

I do see discrimination. HiSo Bangkok people think they are very superior to the Issan people. I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

[kerryk]

To get back on topic, I think some farangs here are seriously paranoid. Confusing dual pricing with racism is way off the mark. As far as actual racism, if it exists, I ignore it to the point that I don't even notice it.

I do see discrimination. HiSo Bangkok people think they are very superior to the Issan people. I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

I have a Thai lady friend, Assumption MA grad who told me that the most dangerous Thai people were a Chinese Issan mix because of the shrewdness of the Chinese nature and the toughness of the Issan nature. Wacko wacko wacko. She actually believed it. Next we will be talking about what ethnic groups play violins best or jump highest.

[Ijustwannateach]

The last 24 hrs I've had to fend off (with thanks and good humour) 4 different people, complete strangers, who were falling all over themselves to help me (assuming that I spoke no Thai in shop/restaurant/pub/etc.). It's because they were racist!!! I should've clubbed 'em with my flip-flops.

[Kananga]

To get back on topic, I think some farangs here are seriously paranoid. Confusing dual pricing with racism is way off the mark. As far as actual racism, if it exists, I ignore it to the point that I don't even notice it.

I do see discrimination. HiSo Bangkok people think they are very superior to the Issan people. I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

I have a Thai lady friend, Assumption MA grad who told me that the most dangerous Thai people were a Chinese Issan mix because of the shrewdness of the Chinese nature and the toughness of the Issan nature. Wacko wacko wacko. She actually believed it. Next we will be talking about what ethnic groups play violins best or jump highest.

So you're still friends with genocidal wacko racists? You should pop over to my castle for schnapps. I'll tell you about my grand plan to eradicate the hmong.

[waza]

Because of your choices in your daily life you are perhaps meeting with a greater mix of uneducated folk than the average Westerner. If you were to mix with a greater amount of uneducated folk in your home country (or folk uneducated to the same extent) you may find yourself facing very similar hostilities or lack of acceptance. No one is simply bothered about your environmental, animal kindness and organic efforts. The hospitals etc might however see the negative and conclude you are draining the system you have no paid in to. You may simply be an enigma to the bus drivers who have no comprehension of why you are not taking a taxi, that might simply be more of a suggestion...

But, to live a life you have chosen in Thailand, or I suspect any other country as a foreigner, you will need to have thick skin.

I think you may be onto something there. I too have noticed that the greatest level of racism is from the lower socio econonic group., but I am starting to think maybe it isnt race bias but a wealth bias. However, this cant be openly shown to rich Thais as they have power, control and connections. But we farrangs are a soft target to vent their frustrations on and this increase in racusm is actually increasd frustration due to economic stress caused by inflation.

[HeavyDrinker]

to eradicate the hmong.

Re-culturalise was the phrase I think...?

The last 24 hrs I've had to fend off (with thanks and good humour) 4 different people, complete strangers, who were falling all over themselves to help me (assuming that I spoke no Thai in shop/restaurant/pub/etc.). It's because they were racist!!! I should've clubbed 'em with my flip-flops

That's a positive thing. Should have still beat them though...

[kerryk]

The last 24 hrs I've had to fend off (with thanks and good humour) 4 different people, complete strangers, who were falling all over themselves to help me (assuming that I spoke no Thai in shop/restaurant/pub/etc.). It's because they were racist!!! I should've clubbed 'em with my flip-flops.

You lost me. What makes you think they were racist?

[Berkshire]

For calling someone "racist" for one.

It is a vile accusation .

Really? Farangs on TV call Thais racist all the time (isn't that what this whole thread is about). That's pretty vile, wouldn't you agree? Especially since it's a totally bogus accusation.