Learning English Language In Thailand: Hype Or Necessity?

[scorecard]

  On 4/2/2012 at 6:09 AM, MaxLee said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:50 AM, mackes said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 1:38 AM, MaxLee said:

There can't be effective learning without discipline first.

What about motivation?

That anyway. Students' motivation for learning is zero for most of them, from the day they were born because they are spoon fed by their parents. That way kids don't learn how to think and solve problems.

I have a twist of this point to share. I have two granddaughters born here in Thailand, the eldest just starting P2. She had homework from kinder 2 and 3 and a lot of homework from P1.

Her father (my Thai son) is serious about completion of the homework, but on many occasions he caught our nanny:

- Doing the homework, or

- Watching my granddaughter counting on her fingers for the addition and substraction questions, then just before grandaughter says an answer nanny sprouts out the answer.

Nanny's retort was always "but you have to help, it's not nice if you don't help", "But she's so tired", etc.

My son's retort "She has to learn to do it herself, are you going to be in the room when she takes her mid-term / end of term test or when she gets a job?"

Son has now totally stopped nanny from doing this, mainly by banning nanny from being anywhere near the homework activity and by ensuring either he or his wife were close by.

[David006]

  On 4/2/2012 at 3:49 AM, dominique355 said:

If any of you readers would like to DO something, rather than complain and know it better, here is an idea:

For a couple of years I have been organizing and raising funds to support English teachers from rural Tahiland to come to Bangkok and follow an intensive, 3-week course at the Language Institute of Thammasat University (LITU).

For this year I have been able to collect funds for 84 English teachers. (84th birthday of HM)

The OBEC also supports this program by supplying lodging, food, transportation and a per diem.

My group pays for the language course, THB 8,000 per teacher or about THB 700,000 in total.

Anyone who is interested in supporting, please PM me. Everly help, no matter how big, is appreciated.

Interesting.....that teacher in my previous post was just off to a meeting with the Min of Ed in Trang to discuss the fact that 20 odd teachers were off to the US, Canada, New Zealand or Australia..objective? don't know....Hopefully to better learn English so they could teach it?? Sounds like some funds being used a bit differently to your efforts??? Hopefully you are aware....?

The teacher asked me what was the best place to choose to visit with the best weather.....?

[bigbamboo]

  On 4/2/2012 at 12:34 AM, AZBill said:

I agree that the reasons behind learning English should have nothing to do with these archaic colonization arguments. It is about globalization, and English is the language that is most used in this new world. It is astounding that the Thai leadership doesn't get this - third world thinking is their problem. I also agree that most of the foreign English teachers in this country are not well qualified, nor are the local teachers. The problem is that well qualified teachers of English have no interest in working for 40 or 50 thousand baht a month in Asia. Most of the expat teachers here become teachers because they can't do anything else to make a living here but still want to enjoy the cheap lifestyle of Thailand. Thus you get the hillbillies and the lower levels of foreign society getting passed off as teachers. (Note: Texas doesn't have many hills nor hillbillies). Also Thai students are not the most motivated nor easy to teach students in the world and it takes a true professional who knows how to both teach and motivate. I just saw my young brother-in-law's english lesson plan from his school and it's pathetic. Half the sentences are grammatically incorrect, and numerous words are not even spelled correctly.

'Note: Texas doesn't have many hills or hillbillies'

No, but it did have that master of the English language, George W Bush, as it's governor!

[Skywalker69]

  On 4/2/2012 at 1:34 AM, lovelaos said:

Why would a qualified teacher go to work in Thailand when they could work in other Asian countries for 3x the salary?

Could be that he is married and have family in Thailand.

[hellodolly]

  On 4/2/2012 at 1:37 AM, whybother said:

The problem isn't necessarily that all Thais should learn English.

It's that the ones that do decide to learn English should be able to learn from better qualified English teachers.

You hit the nail rite on the head. Many areas might never need the English language as they will not be involved in business. Do you need English to work in a rice paddy or on a assembly line. The need for English is definitely there but not for 95% of the population.

Go to a market where they don't speak English and you will soon see that they can understand your needs. Just point on the other hand there are the ignorant ones who just stand there and blabber on in English and make no attempt to communicate.

I don't consider the British colonization as that I consider it the British attempt at rapeing the world.

People forget that China is just waking up and they might do better to learn some form of Chinese.

But to be fair about it China does have the largest English speaking population in the world.

Almost forgot last summer we visited Angkor Wat. There were many English speaking Cambodians but thy could not understand it.

[lujanit]

Just thinking slightly outside the box here. If Thai was only spoken what happens when Aircraft Controllers don't speak English? Some people open their mouths without knowing or maybe wanting to know reality.

[dominique355]

  On 4/2/2012 at 6:36 AM, David006 said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 3:49 AM, dominique355 said:

If any of you readers would like to DO something, rather than complain and know it better, here is an idea:

For a couple of years I have been organizing and raising funds to support English teachers from rural Tahiland to come to Bangkok and follow an intensive, 3-week course at the Language Institute of Thammasat University (LITU).

For this year I have been able to collect funds for 84 English teachers. (84th birthday of HM)

The OBEC also supports this program by supplying lodging, food, transportation and a per diem.

My group pays for the language course, THB 8,000 per teacher or about THB 700,000 in total.

Anyone who is interested in supporting, please PM me. Everly help, no matter how big, is appreciated.

Interesting.....that teacher in my previous post was just off to a meeting with the Min of Ed in Trang to discuss the fact that 20 odd teachers were off to the US, Canada, New Zealand or Australia..objective? don't know....Hopefully to better learn English so they could teach it?? Sounds like some funds being used a bit differently to your efforts??? Hopefully you are aware....?

The teacher asked me what was the best place to choose to visit with the best weather.....?

This program has been runing for several years and our funds go directly to Language Institute Thammasat University , not to the teachers. No diversion of funds possible.

[lovelaos]

  On 4/2/2012 at 8:56 AM, Skywalker69 said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 1:34 AM, lovelaos said:

Why would a qualified teacher go to work in Thailand when they could work in other Asian countries for 3x the salary?

Could be that he is married and have family in Thailand.

Fair point but Thailand is not going to attract qualified, quality teachers when the salaries being paid are a pittance.

[sirchai]

"If Thailand really wants to employ a foreign teacher, then he/she must be a real qualified language teacher, not just a na (t) ive speaker. It has to be one who has a high degree in language or linguistics, and who has also learned at least one or more foreign languages."

I can't believe that BS. Not just a high degree makes a teacher successful.I'd say Thais believe their Masters in English makes them to better English speakers.

But most of them with such a degree can't even say one sentence without a mistake in English.

Foreigners here have to have the ability to deal with the Thai culture, plus being used to all the lies and why's is necessary.

.Isn't a degree in language also called linguistics? It's true that people who've learned at least another language do know more how to teach one, but would those people work here under these circumstances?

Many of us who taught here for many years still have to do a lot of paperwork to get a visa and work permit, while other "specialists" let's say Indian computer Programmer are warmly welcome in almost all countries around the globe.

Their welcome present is a passport and a high salary. Of course not in Thailand,

[Soutpeel]

  On 4/2/2012 at 11:42 AM, sirchai said:

I can't believe that BS. Not just a high degree makes a teacher successful.I'd say Thais believe their Masters in English makes them to better English speakers.

I speak English as a native speaker and never had anyone with a degree, never mind a Master's degree teach me the language and I have coped pretty well over the years

For the most part only basic English is required in Thailand and this could be taught by anyone who is a native speaker of English.

[dao16]

The focus should be more on educating the few who really need it and want it (like the examples given in many posts...multi-national workers, those who would emigrate, air-traffic controllers, people involved in tourism/hospitality, etc). The people who don't see the need can study something else. By trying to force English down everyone's face, you end up with millions upon millions of people who can say "hallo, falang, whey you come fom?" Just make English a specialization like you would math/science or whatever. Would be better.

Of course, all the changes in teaching styles and pay would still be needed, but it would be more manageable.

[sirchai]

  On 4/2/2012 at 12:14 PM, Soutpeel said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 11:42 AM, sirchai said:

I can't believe that BS. Not just a high degree makes a teacher successful.I'd say Thais believe their Masters in English makes them to better English speakers.

I speak English as a native speaker and never had anyone with a degree, never mind a Master's degree teach me the language and I have coped pretty well over the years

For the most part only basic English is required in Thailand and this could be taught by anyone who is a native speaker of English.

Evryding Airy Maann?

[Sing_Sling]

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:40 PM, dao16 said:

Just make English a specialization like you would math/science or whatever. Would be better.

Maths and science are not electives . . . nor should English be one.

[sirchai]

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:48 PM, Sing_Sling said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:40 PM, dao16 said:

Just make English a specialization like you would math/science or whatever. Would be better.

Maths and science are not electives . . . nor should English be one.

There's nothing wrong with your username.....

[tswooosh]

The major issue inThailands education system is Nepotism, always has been and always will be.

Heads of departments giving jobs to nephew's or niece's, sons or daughters, regardless of qualifications. This is especially prevelent in the poorer regions of thailand.

When will they realise they are hurting their country and possible future groth; lets face it Singapore 30 years ago was poorer and more uneducated than Thailand, but look at it now, same goes to a lesser degree for all the surrounding countries. Please Thailand stop being blinkered, if you truely LOVE your country, make it better for all, the divide between rich and poor is getting bigger at the expense of the countrys groth. No more head in the sand ~ PLEASE.

I remember going to a business seminar in Bangkok a few years ago, which basically stated if the Government gave 15 years FREE education, it would bring the education upto the adjacent countries and subsequently have a major groth for the country. Pity the few who are able to pay don't want the 95% who arn't educated, otherwise they would realise what is actually going on in their country, and subsequently do something about it.

Rant over

[garrya]

  On 4/2/2012 at 3:11 AM, noitom said:

Thai university students never learn to "organize their thinking" - They never learn to properly analyze the writing and then develop an intelligent approach to respond. They aren't taught to think. So the English skills they are taught by rote and rules don't mean a thing when they deal with the real world. Many of the university students are fairly competent at reading English. They understand much of it, but they don't "comprehend." Thai society, educators, and government officials are merely repeating the same thing expecting the results to be different.

In response to this editorial, "linguistics" is the study of language form, meaning and context. Thai teaching focuses little or nothing on true meaning and context. Therefore Thai students never really grasp how to put English into practice. This "thinking" gap is a Thai cultural deficiency. Thais are not encouraged to explore and understand anything outside the Thai experience. It is the culture of "Thainess" that blocks their advancement in English. Of course, Thai teachers and foreign teachers should be upgraded. They should hire more people with practical business and organizational experience and not just English grammar and literature education, but rather what did they do with it in real life. Current Thai English teaching standards in Thailand are abysmal. Compensation needs to be upgraded as well.

Agree 100 %.

[attrayant]

  Quote

If Thailand really wants to employ a foreign teacher, then he/she must be a real qualified language teacher, not just a na (t) ive speaker. It has to be one who has a high degree in language or linguistics, and who has also learned at least one or more foreign languages.

I am so tired of this angle. I learned conversational English from my mother and father and other members of society I interacted with, none of who were degree-holding polyglots. This was well before I ever went to school and started learning from a "qualified" grammar teacher. If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for anybody else.

If students want to understand the mechanics of English and go to western universities to study Hemingway, fine - at some point they'll benefit from formal education by a language engineer and sentence diagraming. But don't try to tell me that mere exposure to native speakers holds zero value. That's how almost every child learns their mother tongue.

[zoroastra999]

There are two basic rules of learning. Both are almost universally overlooked:

1) It is impossible to teach anything to anybody if they have no desire to learn what you are trying to teaching them.

2) If somebody REALLY wants to learn something then virtually no obstacle can stand in their way.

In Scandinavia, India, Switzerland etc. people want to learn English - so they do.

InThailand people don't - so they don't

That's how simple it is. It has nothing to do with schools, teachers, policies, resources or anything else.

We cannot motivate other people. They must motivate themselves. If we attempt to force English on to them, we are attempting the impossible - and we will do damage.

[ikke]

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:04 AM, lovelaos said:

"Thailand was never colonized so why botherto learn English. For them English is the language of the British colonies. It has no place in Thai society. Someothers with a myopic vision believe that Thai peopleshould not be made to feel insecure and inferior because of all the hype about importance of learning English"

This attitude says it all. Whilst Thais hold on to this rather pathetic argument it will forever be the poor relative of Asia.

I would not even think about colonisation if the locals would speak English, for me all British colonized countries drive on the wrong side off the road.....

[dao16]

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:48 PM, Sing_Sling said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:40 PM, dao16 said:

Just make English a specialization like you would math/science or whatever. Would be better.

Maths and science are not electives . . . nor should English be one.

I didn't say they should be electives as such. However, you are aware that school systems across the world have specializations, where the science kids focus on science and the lang kids focus on lang, while they all do study all subjects, right????

[lovelaos]

  On 4/2/2012 at 3:37 PM, ikke said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 2:04 AM, lovelaos said:

"Thailand was never colonized so why botherto learn English. For them English is the language of the British colonies. It has no place in Thai society. Someothers with a myopic vision believe that Thai peopleshould not be made to feel insecure and inferior because of all the hype about importance of learning English"

This attitude says it all. Whilst Thais hold on to this rather pathetic argument it will forever be the poor relative of Asia.

I would not even think about colonisation if the locals would speak English, for me all British colonized countries drive on the wrong side off the road.....

......and speak better English than Thais.

[spiritrace]

I speak enough Chinese and Japanese to get by but Thai is difficult for me to learn. Don't know why, just is.

English is the Universal Business language and becoming the social universal language. Conversational English is most important. I am not so concerned about the technical issues of English or spelling. Conversational English at least gets the lines of communication going. Most people who are learning English will never need to know the technical applications of the language or precise spelling.

Also American English is much easier to understand. I have spoken with a lot of farang English speakers and the British English is hard to understand at times.

Conversational English first then if the person wants to go on they can learn the technical after that.

[IsaanUSA]

This should be a thread with a poll.

I vote hype. English is not a necessity for a huge majority of the population. Of course a little English knowledge wouldn't hurt

[Rhys]

WAD..Eeee lect zion time cumming again..555

[BigJohnnyBKK]

  On 4/2/2012 at 3:32 PM, zoroastra999 said:

1) It is impossible to teach anything to anybody if they have no desire to learn what you are trying to teaching them.

2) If somebody REALLY wants to learn something then virtually no obstacle can stand in their way.

We cannot motivate other people. They must motivate themselves. If we attempt to force English on to them, we are attempting the impossible - and we will do damage.

  On 4/2/2012 at 9:19 AM, hellodolly said:

Many areas might never need the English language as they will not be involved in business. Do you need English to work in a rice paddy or on a assembly line. The need for English is definitely there but not for 95% of the population.

  On 4/2/2012 at 4:04 PM, IsaanUSA said:

English is not a necessity for a huge majority of the population.

Of course, but right now the tiny majority that have the **opportunity** to get effective training in English are the wealthy only. If students that performed well could be given that opportunity on an equal basis, regardless of rural vs urban, wealth of the family etc, then those intelligent, ambitious and hard-working students would have a good shot at the better jobs, nearly all of which do require a certain level of English - or at least the ability to fake it higher than the ability of the HR person, which isn't saying much.

But then you'd have poor upcountry kids taking jobs away from lazy spoiled rich kids, and that can't be allowed to happen can it?

  On 4/2/2012 at 1:37 AM, whybother said:

The problem isn't necessarily that all Thais should learn English. It's that the ones that do decide to learn English should be able to learn from better qualified English teachers.

Exactly, nail on the head.

> A white hillbilly native speaker from Texas, USA without a degree in English literature can never be an inspiration for Thai students.

As if a Scot or Welsh teacher is any more comprehensible. The point isn't the accent, they will and should get a mix of speakers from different places, even most teachers from Singapore, India and the Philippines will do a better job than the locals. They do need to have a basic minimum objective test standard for spelling, grammar and writing ability though.

Thailand gets away with offering substandard salaries because their women deliver such excellent value for money.

> an intensive, 3-week course at the Language Institute of Thammasat University (LITU)

Great idea in theory and certainly better than nothing, but 3 weeks, no matter how intensive is only going to have a marginal impact on the effective level of the student's language skills.

Fundamental problem with the teachers and their administrators is that no one is even willing to admit how bad their English actually is, due to the face issue. And of course no one can learn until they admit they need to. . .

> Fair point but Thailand is not going to attract qualified, quality teachers when the salaries being paid are a pittance.

> Why would a qualified teacher go to work in Thailand when they could work in other Asian countries for 3x the salary?

Thailand can get away with paying sub-par salaries because their lovely women deliver such great value for money.

[sprq]

  On 4/2/2012 at 4:01 PM, spiritrace said:

I speak enough Chinese and Japanese to get by but Thai is difficult for me to learn. Don't know why, just is.

English is the Universal Business language and becoming the social universal language. Conversational English is most important. I am not so concerned about the technical issues of English or spelling. Conversational English at least gets the lines of communication going. Most people who are learning English will never need to know the technical applications of the language or precise spelling.

Also American English is much easier to understand. I have spoken with a lot of farang English speakers and the British English is hard to understand at times.

Conversational English first then if the person wants to go on they can learn the technical after that.

You must be referring to the different ways that Americans and British speak, not to American English and British English as varieties of the language. In that, I would agree with you, and I'm a Brit: it is my experience that Americans tend to speak more clearly and, of course, more loudly, whereas Brits often mumble and swallow their words. But as varieties of English, in grammar, vocabulary, spelling, etc. there is really no difference as regards intelligibility; it just depends which brand you're used to whether one is more intelligible than the other, not on their intrinsic qualities.

[shawndoc]

  On 4/2/2012 at 4:04 PM, IsaanUSA said:

I vote hype. English is not a necessity for a huge majority of the population.

But then, neither is history, civics, math, or whatever other classes are left over. The idea of compulsary education is not just to teach what most will use once they finish school, but to give them a well rounded education which will allow them to jump off and persue their interests or career path that they choose, as well as make them more rounded people in general.

Even ignoring the international business aspects of learning English, you would think with a country that has such a large segment of industry revolving around international tourism would focus on getting as much of the population speaking English as possible. Tourism is an industry that touches everyone from all social and economic tiers in Thailand, and with English being the defacto "international" language it just makes sense that you would want as much of your population as possible being at least somewhat competant in it.

[Ijustwannateach]

I had to snicker a little reading the position of the writer. He is a Fulbright fellow, yet he has been relegated to working with Assumption University- well known among foreign educators in Bangkok as one of the stingiest employers, with some of the dullest students (on average with many exceptions I'm sure). No wonder he's frustrated about the state of education.

Seriously, the problem is economics. They either can't or don't want to be able to afford more 'usual' foreign language teachers, and they take advantage of their reputation as a 'vacationland' to pay peanuts to those willing to accept them (or the retired, who do it for beer money and the visa).

There are OTHER alternatives here for real teachers and educators, but they are difficult to find and not always extremely transparent. And they usually don't help the normal, average people who are presumably more in need of support in learning English.

English *is* an economic issue- if for no other reason, the need to communicate within the regional sphere among people who don't have another common language. However, I don't see Thailand as being willing to make the painful decision to open itself up entirely to the kind of competition which will expose its relative weaknesses in order to toughen up. Too much loss of face.

[sfbandung]

I think on balance it is an excellent article.

Whilst there is no substitute for the immersion method (when people ask my wife, who has lived in an English speaking country now for 2 and a half years, how her English got so good she says, "I didn't have any choice if I wanted to communicate with people") if one is going to learn to speak English then it is best if it is coming from someone who not only knows how to speak the language, but how to teach it. So many posters here have scoffed at the notion, but it makes sense. An experienced teacher of English understands where a foreigner, or secifically a Thai, is going to struggle, and focusses on that. Experience is what I'm talking about.

It has been said, and correctly, though that these people will not be attracted here while the rates of pay are so pathetic. That comes down to funding and that comes down to people wanting it to happen. And the politicians don't want it to happen badly enough yet.

To suggest a rural-dwelling Thai rice farmer needs to speak English is ridiculous of course. But it is far more ridiculous to suggest that it would not be advantageous for the average skills in speaking English across Thailand to be improved dramatically. Thais have an Asia-wide reputation for having lousy, or non-existant, English skills. And it matters.

[IsaanUSA]

  On 4/2/2012 at 5:11 PM, shawndoc said:

  On 4/2/2012 at 4:04 PM, IsaanUSA said:

I vote hype. English is not a necessity for a huge majority of the population.

But then, neither is history, civics, math, or whatever other classes are left over. The idea of compulsary education is not just to teach what most will use once they finish school, but to give them a well rounded education which will allow them to jump off and persue their interests or career path that they choose, as well as make them more rounded people in general.

Even ignoring the international business aspects of learning English, you would think with a country that has such a large segment of industry revolving around international tourism would focus on getting as much of the population speaking English as possible. Tourism is an industry that touches everyone from all social and economic tiers in Thailand, and with English being the defacto "international" language it just makes sense that you would want as much of your population as possible being at least somewhat competant in it.

Key word, necessity. Food and water are a necessity. Shelter is a necessity. One could argue that some form of communication is a necessity. But the English language in Thailand is not a necessity. Just like history, math and science....we don't need them to live but they sure make things better. Actually English isn't even a necessity in the USA. There are plenty of Spanish speaking people that get by daily in the US and I'm not even talking about border states.

I didn't write the silly question, but it does say necessity.