Buddhism And Equality

[jmdf103]

one of my main gripes about buddhism is the hierarchy of elitism it seems create. For example a couple of weeks ago i went to buy a bus ticket at chiang mai bus station and the only waiting area with seats was reserved for monks. Aren't we all the same? Equal human beings?

What would have happened if i went and sat down with them, since i am not buddhist? Buddhism is not yet a state religion so if a muslim wanted to sit down would he have been allowed?

i guess what i am getting at is it should be optional whether of not to defer to a monk. Surely a voluntary act of deference means more than a forced "you may no sit" order.

Edited April 4, 2012 by jmdf103

[andrew55]

After some years as a guest in the Kingdom I have not noticed this "hierarchy of elitism" within Buddhism. Certainly not as much as in many other religions which the mods don't like discussed on their sub-forum. Think of a few religions and consider how rigid their hierarchies are.

If our hosts in Thailand like to provide separate seating for their monks then I will certainly respect that.

In practice if you had sat down I think no Thai would have said anything - they'd think as a farang you just don't know any better. Not 'ciwilai'. I hope. I think for a Muslim the same. A farang with more experience of Thai cultural rules may have pointed out to you that you were behaving less than politely.

Also be aware that the monks may not touch or be touched by a woman I believe. That would also justify the segregated seating, would it not?

If these were the only available seats and you needed to sit down I'm sure if you asked if you might please sit a while I'd imagine you'd be welcomed. Probably have a nice chat with the robed men to boot.

Sabai old mate, sabai.

Edited April 4, 2012 by andrew55

[huli]

I don't see where Buddhism is responsible for creating a hierarchy of elitism, as you say. Monks don't demand they have the most comfortable seats. They live lives of austerity. It is just that this society respects them greatly for their model lives, and demonstrate this respect by showing monks deference. The Thai people enjoy this.

It is, of course, true that we are all equal human beings at our core, but this is apart from the human relationships in life as we actually live it. Should a child demand to be the equal of his parent? The idea that all people are equal is hardy part of life in Thailand, which is very class-conscious. Powerful and rich people are always given additional signs of respect, compared to a Burmese laborer, as an extreme example. The "wai" has many levels of respect, depending on age and other factors. Women are second-class citizens too, an obvious fact-of-life in Thai society.

The idea you express that everyone is equal, while at first appearing to be an ultimate truth, can be seen as only applying in this world under certain circumstances, for example, in a vote among citizens. Non-citizens are not equal to them in this case, and we expats are not equal to Thais in many respects. None of this is Buddhism.

According to my Thai wife, if you did sit down with the monks, no one would have said anything. Everyone would assume that you didn't understand Thai society, and that would be that. It wouldn't matter one way or the other if you are Buddhist or not, and who could know anyway? If a Muslim sat down, especially a Muslim clergy, no one would think twice about it. However, a woman could not sit there mainly because of the Buddhist rules about women not touching monks, which has to be prevented. This is considered dangerous to a monk's goal of a pure mind, free of carnal desire. Every Thai woman knows this, and why, and it is not a reason for resentment on their part.

[andrew55]

I don't see where Buddhism is responsible for creating a hierarchy of elitism, as you say. Monks don't demand they have the most comfortable seats. They live lives of austerity. It is just that this society respects them greatly for their model lives, and demonstrate this respect by showing monks deference. The Thai people enjoy this.

It is, of course, true that we are all equal human beings at our core, but this is apart from the human relationships in life as we actually live it. Should a child demand to be the equal of his parent? The idea that all people are equal is hardy part of life in Thailand, which is very class-conscious. Powerful and rich people are always given additional signs of respect, compared to a Burmese laborer, as an extreme example. The "wai" has many levels of respect, depending on age and other factors. Women are second-class citizens too, an obvious fact-of-life in Thai society.

The idea you express that everyone is equal, while at first appearing to be an ultimate truth, can be seen as only applying in this world under certain circumstances, for example, in a vote among citizens. Non-citizens are not equal to them in this case, and we expats are not equal to Thais in many respects. None of this is Buddhism.

According to my Thai wife, if you did sit down with the monks, no one would have said anything. Everyone would assume that you didn't understand Thai society, and that would be that. It wouldn't matter one way or the other if you are Buddhist or not, and who could know anyway? If a Muslim sat down, especially a Muslim clergy, no one would think twice about it. However, a woman could not sit there mainly because of the Buddhist rules about women not touching monks, which has to be prevented. This is considered dangerous to a monk's goal of a pure mind, free of carnal desire. Every Thai woman knows this, and why, and it is not a reason for resentment on their part.

A very articulate post huli. Thank you.

I must disagree with you regarding women being considered 2nd class citizens. I think in fact the matriarch is often senior to the patriarch. My light reading on Thailand currrently and historically suggests that some very large businesses have been and are run by women. It seems that this has been so for generations. Also very senior community positions. I note that male staff seem to have no problems with a female boss. etc etc.

Back to topic. Please forgive.

[jmdf103]

After some years as a guest in the Kingdom I have not noticed this "hierarchy of elitism" within Buddhism. Certainly not as much as in many other religions which the mods don't like discussed on their sub-forum. Think of a few religions and consider how rigid their hierarchies are.

If our hosts in Thailand like to provide separate seating for their monks then I will certainly respect that.

In practice if you had sat down I think no Thai would have said anything - they'd think as a farang you just don't know any better. Not 'ciwilai'. I hope. I think for a Muslim the same. A farang with more experience of Thai cultural rules may have pointed out to you that you were behaving less than politely.

Also be aware that the monks may not touch or be touched by a woman I believe. That would also justify the segregated seating, would it not?

If these were the only available seats and you needed to sit down I'm sure if you asked if you might please sit a while I'd imagine you'd be welcomed. Probably have a nice chat with the robed men to boot.

Sabai old mate, sabai.

The hierarchy is clearly demonstrated by merit making practices. From my conversations with thais, they tell me that the higher the level of monk that the offering is made to the more merit is accrued. This is surely an upside down logic, where it is more virtueous to make an offering to a high ranking abbot say, than to a starving beggar on the street. The rich getting richer no?

The hierarchy i refer to is obvious in my opinion and has different aspects. Physical; ie the levels of elevation above each other the different ranks must sit, with the laymen at the bottom. Metaphorical; ie when an image of monks is created higher ranking monks must be shown above lower ranking monks.

A few weeks ago when queuing at the gate to board a plane, a middle aged monk without being asked, went to the front of the queue and the lady checking the boarding passes prostrated herself on the floor, to which the monk nonchalantly dropped his boarding pass on the floor for her to pick up. I realise that his behaviour is protocol and is institutionalized, but this is elitism nonetheless. She is a human being too, if a monk wants to live a celebate lifestyle thats fine, but why should she have to change the way she behaves just to accommodate his lifestyle choice. Societies that aspire to equality must start from basic human standards of respect.

[IMA_FARANG]

I'm retired in Thailand and do 90 day reporting at immigration. I was there last week and there is a sign that does say in English."Monk and Priest get priority". While I was waiting an obviously newly ordained foriegn monk was ushered in and taken to that desk before others waiting in the queue.

Such treatment is normal in Thailand as a sign of respect for them.

I'm sure, if you were waiting and those were the only seats available, they would certainly allow you to sit there if you asked politely.

The only problem I can see might be for a young female since the ordination rules do prohibit unneeded contact with females...but that is at the option of the monk to chose or refuse. So it would depend on the monk and his determination of the rules.

Religion of the person shouldn't be an problem.

[Para]

The reason for the seperate area is to stop any chance of accidental contact from lay people and also a sign of respect for the Monk. If you had of chosen to sit I am sure any Monks there would of simply welcomed you and enjoyed chatting with you.

Please dont confuse respect shown by lay people towards Monks as expectation by Monk's......

[oggie911]

but i knew a lady who was giving money by a monk for sexual favors so how can he touch a lady and the rest of the monks cant that a load of codswobble

[huli]

but i knew a lady who was giving money by a monk for sexual favors so how can he touch a lady and the rest of the monks cant that a load of codswobble

Wow, that is a very bad monk indeed. Perhaps comparable to the Catholic priests who got in all that trouble. Human nature being what it is, some people fail to keep their vows or precepts, as the case may be. If that monk were exposed he would be disrobed or kicked out. The codswobble apples to the wayward monk only.

[Brucenkhamen]

The main issue here I think is to prevent any awkwardness around the monks not being allowed to sit next to or be accidentally brushed by female passengers.

[Para]

but i knew a lady who was giving money by a monk for sexual favors so how can he touch a lady and the rest of the monks cant that a load of codswobble

With Thailand having over 250,000 Monks unfortunately some do fall to temptation. Please do not let isolated incidents cloud your opinion of all of us......

Para

[hookedondhamma]

The main issue here I think is to prevent any awkwardness around the monks not being allowed to sit next to or be accidentally brushed by female passengers.

As a layperson, I used to be somewhat confused about some of the things I saw done at my temple (Thai Isaan) in the United States (even more when I heard others gossiping or slandering - it always occured why those who did just didn't ask a monk - for the most part the few Americans in the temple were all straightforward with each other, but I guess sometimes it's just more interesting to do?)

I guess I had the merit to be able to figure out there was a reason behind all of it. At the time I spoke no Thai or Lao for that matter, and the only sources available were the few English books at the temple. Then I began to search for the answers on the internet, put two and two together, etc.

Hearing words like 'allegedly, supposedly' and phrases like 'Well, I heard [fill in the blank]' don't necessarily make for good information, because it's often based on speculation.

Speaking of, one of the basic, but important precepts in Therevada Buddhism (others I wouldn't be too aware of as my sect is the Dhammayut order) is that of refraining from false speech, idle chatter ... one of the reasons it's so peaceful at a temple.

Sure I've heard my fair share of accustions about 'this monk - that monk' but I finally got to the point where I realized their problem is not mine. If there's a way I can help, wonderful. If not, then there is 'upekkha - equanitmity, letting go in those cases where we should remain indifferent, being unruffled - neither pleased nor upset - where we are no longer able to be of help' (from Ajaahn Lee, Craft of the Heart, Wat Asokaram).

From my personal experience some people will be afraid of or slander what they don't understand due to insecurity of some sort, and some will take the effort to figure out why, and perhaps, turn that fear into a worthwhile lesson.

For me, I've never seen it as 'inequality' or 'elitism', even as a layperson. Ego can be a big deterrent.

There's a great website called accesstoinsight dot org, or even a better source, a monk, to consult if there are any lingering questions (we're always happy to answer them :-)

With Metta :-)

[rockyysdt]

Hi jmd.

Buddhism or what the Buddha taught has nothing to do with the Government of any country nor its rules.

The rules you sight aren't ones stipulated by Buddhism nor by the Buddhas teachings.

Your grievance is one with the law of the land rather than with Buddhism itself.

Far from being elite, a wise Monk would follow this.

"A wise man walks with his head bowed.

A wise man is humble. "

Anything short of this fuels the ego.

Edited April 6, 2012 by rockyysdt

[jmdf103]

Hi jmd.

Buddhism or what the Buddha taught has nothing to do with the Government of any country nor its rules.

The rules you sight aren't ones stipulated by Buddhism nor by the Buddhas teachings.

Your grievance is one with the law of the land rather than with Buddhism itself.

Far from being elite, a wise Monk would follow this.

"A wise man walks with his head bowed.

A wise man is humble. "

Anything short of this fuels the ego.

yes you have summed up my feeling that the institution of government has corrupted buddhism for its own needs. Henry VIII, the shiite/sunni power struggle after the death of mohammed, the romanisation of christianity....... religion seems to be a handy tool of power.

Edited April 6, 2012 by jmdf103

[Xangsamhua]

yes you have summed up my feeling that the institution of government has corrupted buddhism for its own needs. Henry VIII, the shiite/sunni power struggle after the death of mohammed, the romanisation of christianity....... religion seems to be a handy tool of power.

Well, yes, kings and princes and politicians do use popular and institutional religion for their own ends. This could be said of the Great Dhammarajah, Asoke, himself, who may well have understood as much about the Buddhadhamma as Constantine did of the teachings of Christ. But he saw the value of Buddhism to the peace and stability of the Mauryan Empire, and he was sick of the rancour, rigidity and ritualism of the Brahman clergy of his time.

However, the teaching of the founder and the beliefs and practices of the devotees over the ages are bound to move apart. "Pure" religious teaching and practice is hard for the average householder, something the Buddha acknowledged and the reason he used mythic stories and images and common cosmic assumptions in his sermons to householders. A reason, too, for basing the maintenance and continuation of his core teaching on a monastic Sangha.

Over the centuries until very recently in Buddhist countries, the body of Dhamma was passed on through the monks, while the laity got the Jataka stories and very simple versions of the Dhamma. All this evolved into a culturally widespread assumption that the monks embodied the Dhamma and the lay people sustained it by sustaining the monks. Together with this grew the increasing lionization of the monastic Sangha, with demonstrative outward shows of deference towards the monks, a deference able, however, to separate the robe from the person wearing it. He may or may not be worthy of respect and deference, but the robe certainly is.

There's no point grumbling over failure to uphold the precepts and standards of "pure" religion. If you will only accept the latter you will be very isolated. Best to find a mountain top to sit on or, alternatively, seek out something manifestly less than perfect, but nevertheless well-intended and reasonable. The serious and experienced members of this forum seem to have done that.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The hierarchy is clearly demonstrated by merit making practices. From my conversations with thais, they tell me that the higher the level of monk that the offering is made to the more merit is accrued. This is surely an upside down logic, where it is more virtueous to make an offering to a high ranking abbot say, than to a starving beggar on the street. The rich getting richer no?

The hierarchy i refer to is obvious in my opinion and has different aspects. Physical; ie the levels of elevation above each other the different ranks must sit, with the laymen at the bottom. Metaphorical; ie when an image of monks is created higher ranking monks must be shown above lower ranking monks.

The hierarchy mindset is not the result of the religion, but of the cultures within which has arisen - it permeates all aspects of Asian life - political, economic, social as well as religious.

If you are actually interested in Buddhism, it is very easy to join a monastery, just look for ones that have English-speaking abbots or at least monks within their hierarchy.

Otherwise just treat them as an interesting but to-you irrelevent aspect of Thai culture.

Monks have the highest status of all out of respect for their sacrifices for the common good. You may not believe or respect this, but to show respect for your host country's culture I would advise you to pretend to go along with local customs. Just as you should give up your seat on public transportation to a child accompanied by his/her parents, as they do here. Just as you should follow any directives given you by any uniformed personnel, even if you don't think you should "have to".

Waffling on in theoretical sociology terms won't accomplish anything in reality.

[khaowong1]

but i knew a lady who was giving money by a monk for sexual favors so how can he touch a lady and the rest of the monks cant that a load of codswobble

With Thailand having over 250,000 Monks unfortunately some do fall to temptation. Please do not let isolated incidents cloud your opinion of all of us......

Para

+1

[lungmi]

Two days ago a member of my Thai family was ordained.

Big emotion for his mother and father.

When he came out of the ceremony with the yellow robe, his mother asked as a good mother: Everything o.k. now?

But she used his nickname. Confusion. I asked him in English, what is your monk's name?. Everyone understood quickly.

Later in his room many people came to offer comforts for his life as monk, young girls included. He was confused.

My wife told him that he had to put the small yellow blanket on the ground to accept the offerings of women.

---------------

For all rituals in Thailand concerning monks there is not a problem.

The innocence of a not instructed farang but with the open mind to learn about Buddhist culture makes you rich.

[hookedondhamma]

Two days ago a member of my Thai family was ordained.

Big emotion for his mother and father.

When he came out of the ceremony with the yellow robe, his mother asked as a good mother: Everything o.k. now?

But she used his nickname. Confusion. I asked him in English, what is your monk's name?. Everyone understood quickly.

Later in his room many people came to offer comforts for his life as monk, young girls included. He was confused.

My wife told him that he had to put the small yellow blanket on the ground to accept the offerings of women.

---------------

For all rituals in Thailand concerning monks there is not a problem.

The innocence of a not instructed farang but with the open mind to learn about Buddhist culture makes you rich.

Congrats to him! I wish him the best! Lol, talk about names. The English name. The Thai nickname. The Formal Monk name. It's not too bad when you get used to it :-) The offering cloth (small yellow blanket) - I can understand that. Many times I'll forget about it, too (but just about anything will work: tissue, or piece of paper, edge of robe in dire forgetfulness, etc.) when recieving requisites from laywomen.

There's a good explanation of it at the accesstoinsight dot org page if you're interested.

[fabianfred]

Two days ago a member of my Thai family was ordained.

Big emotion for his mother and father.

When he came out of the ceremony with the yellow robe, his mother asked as a good mother: Everything o.k. now?

But she used his nickname. Confusion. I asked him in English, what is your monk's name?. Everyone understood quickly.

Later in his room many people came to offer comforts for his life as monk, young girls included. He was confused.

My wife told him that he had to put the small yellow blanket on the ground to accept the offerings of women.

---------------

For all rituals in Thailand concerning monks there is not a problem.

The innocence of a not instructed farang but with the open mind to learn about Buddhist culture makes you rich.

Congrats to him! I wish him the best! Lol, talk about names. The English name. The Thai nickname. The Formal Monk name. It's not too bad when you get used to it :-) The offering cloth (small yellow blanket) - I can understand that. Many times I'll forget about it, too (but just about anything will work: tissue, or piece of paper, edge of robe in dire forgetfulness, etc.) when recieving requisites from laywomen.

There's a good explanation of it at the accesstoinsight dot org page if you're interested.

link please...?

[hookedondhamma]

Ha! I just went to the website and couldn't find it! Time to do a manual search. From what I remember it was about different Buddhist traditions and the monks' interaction with women, so not so much on the 'variations' of how it is used, but more so a comparison among branches. Perhaps it was a digital book. It's been a long time ... สญญา อนีจจาติ

Speaking of robe, after chanting today a laylady completely caught me off gaurd. After sitting in meditation I heard the crinkle of the plastic bag and thought 'what can I use? hmmm., no paper, no pamphlets ... the robe again.' Sure enough turned around and used the robe.

[lungmi]

Ha! I just went to the website and couldn't find it! Time to do a manual search. From what I remember it was about different Buddhist traditions and the monks' interaction with women, so not so much on the 'variations' of how it is used, but more so a comparison among branches. Perhaps it was a digital book. It's been a long time ... สญญา อนีจจาติ

Speaking of robe, after chanting today a laylady completely caught me off gaurd. After sitting in meditation I heard the crinkle of the plastic bag and thought 'what can I use? hmmm., no paper, no pamphlets ... the robe again.' Sure enough turned around and used the robe.

Not the correct way, but your intention was correct. Where is the problem?

[hookedondhamma]

Ha! I just went to the website and couldn't find it! Time to do a manual search. From what I remember it was about different Buddhist traditions and the monks' interaction with women, so not so much on the 'variations' of how it is used, but more so a comparison among branches. Perhaps it was a digital book. It's been a long time ... สญญา อนีจจาติ

Speaking of robe, after chanting today a laylady completely caught me off gaurd. After sitting in meditation I heard the crinkle of the plastic bag and thought 'what can I use? hmmm., no paper, no pamphlets ... the robe again.' Sure enough turned around and used the robe.

Not the correct way, but your intention was correct. Where is the problem?

That was the point. No offering cloth in sight - it isn't something many of us carry 24/7, other than Wan Phra or other special events that pop up. Rather than accept it not offered (which is also 'not the correct way') using the robe is the next best thing. No problem, unless you want to see one.

[fabianfred]

These offering cloths are called 'Thai offering cloth', because only Thailand uses them. The monks in Sri Lankha, Burma and Laos do not, and their women can be offended if they are used.

[hookedondhamma]

These offering cloths are called 'Thai offering cloth', because only Thailand uses them. The monks in Sri Lankha, Burma and Laos do not, and their women can be offended if they are used.

Was going to post the same thing yesterday, but noticed that it was originally referred to as a 'small yellow blanket' and decided to just leave it at that to avoid any confusion.

[Jawnie]

The concept of equality does not apply in the same sense as it does, say, with regard to US freedoms and rights. In fact, in Buddhism, individuals are distinctly unequal due to their karma: gods, demigods, humans, animals, hungry ghosts, hell beings. Each individual is responsible for their own circumstances.

The only equality in Buddhism is that each being, regardless of realm, has the Buddha-nature and is capable of achieving enlightenment.

Sometimes humans have managed to progress a little (or a lot) further than most on the path toward enlightenment and sometimes that progress is recognized by giving them higher seats, better food, etc.

[rockyysdt]

Each individual is responsible for their own circumstances.

Interestingly, I was listening to an ABC radio programme concerning prison populations.

Researchers have found that a very high percentage of the prison population includes inmates with low IQ & mental cognitive disfunction.

The presenter further indicated that their condition contributed, to varying degrees, their inability to make appropriate life choices.

In other words they had a congenital condition which affected their ability to exercise responsibility.

Their criminal behavior is largely beyond their mental capacity to control themselves.

For a number of reasons, such people are largely undiagnosed and/or not offered appropriate medical assistance.

They are treated the same way as other criminals.

Edited May 2, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

Each individual is responsible for their own circumstances.

Interestingly, I was listening to an ABC radio programme concerning prison populations.

Researchers have found that a very high percentage of the prison population includes inmates with low IQ & mental cognitive disfunction.

The presenter further indicated that their condition contributed, to varying degrees, their inability to make appropriate life choices.

In other words they had a congenital condition which affected their ability to exercise responsibility.

Their criminal behavior is largely beyond their mental capacity to control themselves.

For a number of reasons, such people are largely undiagnosed and/or not offered appropriate medical assistance.

They are treated the same way as other criminals.

First among The Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind is the uniqueness of being human. Humans, in order to practice the Dharma, must have the 18 Freedoms and Endowments, including a mind which can discern right from wrong and to be without heavy mental or emotional afflictions. The individuals you cite have these afflictions and hence, are not completely endowed for the purpose of practicing the Dharma. That they are not so endowed is due to the influence of previous karma which as led to the formation of their current mind stream, or internal obscurations. Equally, the fact that they are imprisoned is the result of previous karma resulting in external obscurations, ie., being in jail. Together, their circumstances make Dharma practice extremely difficult for them. In fact, their present circumstances increase the likelihood for them to accumulate more negative karma.

It will be a long time indeed before their circumstances accumulate sufficient good karma to hear and perceive the Dharma. This is why masters constantly say that now is the time for practice, because your karma has brought you to the point where you have a healthy mind and can hear and practice the Dharma. If you leave this life without practicing the Dharma, it could be tens of thousands, or millions, of years before you have the same opportunity.

[rockyysdt]

First among The Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind is the uniqueness of being human. Humans, in order to practice the Dharma, must have the 18 Freedoms and Endowments, including a mind which can discern right from wrong and to be without heavy mental or emotional afflictions. The individuals you cite have these afflictions and hence, are not completely endowed for the purpose of practicing the Dharma. That they are not so endowed is due to the influence of previous karma which as led to the formation of their current mind stream, or internal obscurations. Equally, the fact that they are imprisoned is the result of previous karma resulting in external obscurations, ie., being in jail. Together, their circumstances make Dharma practice extremely difficult for them. In fact, their present circumstances increase the likelihood for them to accumulate more negative karma.

It will be a long time indeed before their circumstances accumulate sufficient good karma to hear and perceive the Dharma. This is why masters constantly say that now is the time for practice, because your karma has brought you to the point where you have a healthy mind and can hear and practice the Dharma. If you leave this life without practicing the Dharma, it could be tens of thousands, or millions, of years before you have the same opportunity.

Better still awakening in this life.