Middle Class In Thailand

[brit1984]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

[transam]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

What an excellent comparison. 10 out of 10.

[zzaa09]

i would say (guess ) 80-90% of thais could be classified as poor /low paid /working class /bottom range salary

10-15% are likely to be hi-society /rich /very well paid

1-5% are likely to be too rich to care what things costs /probably dont even have to work /buy everything from paragon /have servants do everything for them etc

this is just a very rough estimation ,there is no way to give exact figures on wealth in a country where much of the economy thrives under the table and hardly anyone reports earnings or pays tax etc

Shopping at Paragon.

How terribly gauche.

[theblether]

Methinks the middle class in Thailand suffer from the same problem that every middle class in the world suffers from.

They are drowning in debt, striving to achieve but constantly worrying from one month to the next. Too much disposable income going on consumerism and not enough to foundation saving. I have seen extraordinary vehicle loan agreements in Thailand, people putting themselves under ridiculous pressure. I think a lot of people are getting in too deep, way too deep.

With the way debtor law is in Thailand I fear for the middle class if a downturn hits, which it inevitably will.

[transam]

Methinks the middle class in Thailand suffer from the same problem that every middle class in the world suffers from.

They are drowning in debt, striving to achieve but constantly worrying from one month to the next. Too much disposable income going on consumerism and not enough to foundation saving. I have seen extraordinary vehicle loan agreements in Thailand, people putting themselves under ridiculous pressure. I think a lot of people are getting in too deep, way too deep.

With the way debtor law is in Thailand I fear for the middle class if a downturn hits, which it inevitably will.

Blimey, all that's me too a tee.

[Soutpeel]

Easy

Bangkok....Elite/Upper classes/middle class

Rest of Thailand...what evers left

Underclass...living in Pattaya

Only joking....

[zzaa09]

Methinks the middle class in Thailand suffer from the same problem that every middle class in the world suffers from.

They are drowning in debt, striving to achieve but constantly worrying from one month to the next. Too much disposable income going on consumerism and not enough to foundation saving. I have seen extraordinary vehicle loan agreements in Thailand, people putting themselves under ridiculous pressure. I think a lot of people are getting in too deep, way too deep.

With the way debtor law is in Thailand I fear for the middle class if a downturn hits, which it inevitably will.

Driven by the social engineered concept of mindless and needless consumption.

[Soutpeel]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

and for our colonial cousins who dont know who Wayne Rooney is...

The Kardashians.....lower class

Edited May 2, 2012 by Soutpeel

[wana]

i thought in thailand ( a poor country ) ,anyone with lots of money is middle class wealthy

dont matter if they earned it from owning a huge farm ,owning a shopping plaza or even being in a sleazy but well paid job such as a lawyer .....

You would be wrong then, class structure in a feudal society is not, by any means, wealth based.

Brit has it right.

how can you be in the higher echelons of society or upper middle class or whatever you want to call it and still be broke ?

somewhere along the line ,class and wealth intersect whether you want to believe it or not

it gets very murky because class will be further broken down into segments etc but you realistically need some wealth to be anything higher than

"working class " which is barely a step above homeless and destitiute if you happen to be in a job that pays almost nothing in return for working like a slave which many thai people are ......

[CodyB]

4% of Thai Chinese have $1 million US in assets. They probably account for about 80% of the millionaires in the country so, let's say about 0.075% of the population is very wealthy by Thai standards.

The middle class, I'd presume is overwhelmingly Ethnic Thai's in government positions that earn relatively good salaries (10-20,000 baht) a month but perhaps earn extra income through other 'avenues'. Also in the middle class you would have a vast amount of Chinese thai business owners that aren't in the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to amassed wealth. IT seems as if many that live in Tourist areas earn quite a bit of dough from the foreign visitors as well. Street food vendors in Phuket make an absolute killing btw.

[Beetlejuice]

i thought in thailand ( a poor country ) ,anyone with lots of money is middle class wealthy

dont matter if they earned it from owning a huge farm ,owning a shopping plaza or even being in a sleazy but well paid job such as a lawyer .....

You would be wrong then, class structure in a feudal society is not, by any means, wealth based.

Brit has it right.

So would you describe some unworthy layabout slob of no wealth but comes from a well to do family, as a posh git down on his luck? Or would you describe a 400 baht an hour hooker who works in a cheap bar and also comes from a middle class family as a poshtitute?

Well to do and class is not something that can be passed on to children like a bloodline or family name.

Unless someone descends from an inherited aristocracy, than in my opinion a person’s class is determined by their occupation, environment, wealth and lifestyle.

[wana]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

i have to agree there ,and for any americans who might be reading and not know who Wayne rooney is .....

Think along the lines of ...................................... Paris Hilton

[Soutpeel]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

i have to agree there ,and for any americans who might be reading and not know who Wayne rooney is .....

Think along the lines of ...................................... Paris Hilton

Naah...in comparision with Kardashians, Paris Hilton is a classy lady

[wana]

For those of you who cannot grasp the difference between class and wealth... Wayne Rooney is lower class

i have to agree there ,and for any americans who might be reading and not know who Wayne rooney is .....

Think along the lines of ...................................... Paris Hilton

Naah...in comparision with Kardashians, Paris Hilton is a classy lady

britney spears ? mega rich A-list superstar or skanky trailer park trash ? i know which one i vote for

[Plucky]

Always found this a difficult one. I know people who are rich due to family but poor educationally and others vice versa but both seem to hold the same ground.

But the poor and well educated up and coming are more my type.

Argh aren't I a nice bloke!

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[citizen33]

This is an interesting topic, but I'd guess that different groups define class boundaries in different ways. I was talking to a friend, who is an Associate Professor in a leading Thai university, about one of the departmental staff (clerical assistants) whose new SUV I'd been admiring. My friend said that the person concerned has a husband with a small business in Bangkok. She said that In his case it is a respectable business but you do wonder sometimes. For instance if a daughter tells her middle-class parents that she wants to marry a man who has a company, the first question will be what does he do. If the daughter had said the suitor was a doctor or a teacher then no problem. So it seems that for some there is still a profession versus trade distinction.

Incidentally the phrase one of our erudite members (above) was looking for when he sought to define the characteristics of the middle class was delayed or deferred gratification (not 'delayed gratitude'). Yes, I know I'm a pedant!

Edited May 2, 2012 by citizen33

[JurgenG]

4% of Thai Chinese have $1 million US in assets. They probably account for about 80% of the millionaires in the country so, let's say about 0.075% of the population is very wealthy by Thai standards.

The middle class, I'd presume is overwhelmingly Ethnic Thai's in government positions that earn relatively good salaries (10-20,000 baht) a month but perhaps earn extra income through other 'avenues'. Also in the middle class you would have a vast amount of Chinese thai business owners that aren't in the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to amassed wealth. IT seems as if many that live in Tourist areas earn quite a bit of dough from the foreign visitors as well. Street food vendors in Phuket make an absolute killing btw.

Where did you get these figures from ?

If I don't make mistake, 0.075 % is about 45,000 people. 1 M USD is about 31 M THB. It's the price of a nice house or a nice condo in good location. In a number of area in Thailand you will pay 1M THB for 1 rai or more. I believe the number of people having assets of US$ 1M or more is much bigger than what you say.

Just to refer to the above post, a doctor with a small clinic has very often more than US$ 1 M in assets.

Edited May 2, 2012 by JurgenG

[arthurwait]

i would say (guess ) 80-90% of thais could be classified as poor /low paid /working class /bottom range salary

10-15% are likely to be hi-society /rich /very well paid

1-5% are likely to be too rich to care what things costs /probably dont even have to work /buy everything from paragon /have servants do everything for them etc

this is just a very rough estimation ,there is no way to give exact figures on wealth in a country where much of the economy thrives under the table and hardly anyone reports earnings or pays tax etc

I would say that the numbers of Thai poor are no where near those figures.

The numbers of Thai middle class are not as numerous as they used to be as many were financially wiped out during the 1997 Asian financial crisis and never recovered, but also during that time there were a greater number of underclass and poor within the outer cities and spread over several regions of the Kingdom.

But a lot has changed and today the rural Thais may seem poor according to appearances and lifestyle, but many are owners of huge amounts of land that has been inherited from past generations, and although lacking in funds, cash flow and on low incomes, actually have a considerable wealth in assets, so these people could be categorised as upper working class or middle class.

Living standards in Thailand have much improved over the last 25 years, and I would guess that the most prosperous are living in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and other northern provinces and the most poverty stricken in the North eastern regions of the country.

Appearances can be deceptive and I believe that the Thais are much wealthier these days than many people may believe, although I cannot produce any official facts or figures.

Just my opinion folks.

I was informed this weekend by the wife that on some recent news the wealthiest cities by whatever they included are 1.Bangkok 2. Khon Ken (Never been can that be right or am I remembering right ?) 3. Chonburi City. Can anyone can find this survey ?

[GuestHouse]

Incidentally the phrase one of our erudite members (above) was looking for when he sought to define the characteristics of the middle class was delayed or deferred gratification (not 'delayed gratitude'). Yes, I know I'm a pedant!

Thanks for the correction, and you are right that is the phrase I was intending to use.

The Thai Middle Class are not strapping themselves to huge debts - they are behaving like the middle class the world over, investing in their human capital, primarily education, but also social and political networks and importunely building capital over conspicuous consumption.

As I say above, class has very little to do with money.

[GuestHouse]

Class is an aura of confidence that is being sure without being cocky. Class has nothing to do with money. Class never runs scared. It is self-discipline and self-knowledge. It's the sure-footedness that comes with having proved you can meet life.

People on here seem to forget, there's money, and then there's class. The two are often separated.

Class is entirely intangible, and the way it affects things isn't subject to scientific analysis, and it's not supposed to be real but it's pervasive and powerful all the same.

You are correct, class and money are not the same thing.

But just as the middle class and upper class exude confidence class also limits the expectations, outlook and confidence of the working class and lower classes.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I don't get the people who pontificate on the Thai economy, don't provide any source or figures, and then even have the audacity to claim that there are no figures.

Of course there are figures. Let me take a stab at a middle class:

1. People with cars. (This is known at the transport department; they're the folks paying road tax every year. Feel free to only count vehicles newer than x years, which the transport department also knows.)

2. Families who pay tax on an income over xxK per month. (you get to define the amount; don't want to debate the number.) Yes there are a few traders & hustlers who make OK income but don't pay tax on a salary; not sure most of those qualify as middle class; a secure (office) job could be considered an aspect of middle classishness.

And of course the middle class is vastly expanding, from a couple decades ago.

Edited May 3, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[nocturn]

I agree with and understand the distinction between class and wealth (or lack thereof), but re-reading the OP, I do not think that distinction was necessarily one intended.

For you what is the middle class of Thailand ? The upper middle class ? The "Hi-so" ? And any other class ? The 1% ...

How much do they earn ? What do they do for a living ? The size of their house ? The kind of car they drive ?

The OP seems focused on wealth, income, possessions rather than class.

[PattayaParent]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

Probably a fair assessment.

I consider the Thais that I work with to be part of a 'new middle class'. They are degree educated, the guys in engineering disciplines and the girls in a variety of degrees (marketing, accountants, statistics, business to name a few). They earn a decent salary, have a decent standard of living,car definitely, some of them houses, have good expectations for the future and have spouses of a similar position.

I think our perceptions are biased by the type of Thais we meet daily. If you hang out in bars or are retired and play golf daily you are meeting a different 'class' (for want of a better word, not implying low class) of people than if you are working here. And possibly to a degree where you are working.

I was planning to do a poll on it which I'll try to get around to soon.

[PattayaParent]

Upper class: These guys turn left when getting on a plane, and have flown first class more times than they have sat in a BKK Taxi (never). Kids educated in UK.

One of my company drivers has their kid in university in England!

[PattayaParent]

how can you be in the higher echelons of society or upper middle class or whatever you want to call it and still be broke ?

Robert Maxwell

Bernie Madoff

[transam]

how can you be in the higher echelons of society or upper middle class or whatever you want to call it and still be broke ?

Robert Maxwell

Bernie Madoff

AND a few names at Lloyd's eh.

[DP25]

I don't get the people who pontificate on the Thai economy, don't provide any source or figures, and then even have the audacity to claim that there are no figures.

Of course there are figures. Let me take a stab at a middle class:

1. People with cars. (This is known at the transport department; they're the folks paying road tax every year. Feel free to only count vehicles newer than x years, which the transport department also knows.)

2. Families who pay tax on an income over xxK per month. (you get to define the amount; don't want to debate the number.) Yes there are a few traders & hustlers who make OK income but don't pay tax on a salary; not sure most of those qualify as middle class; a secure (office) job could be considered an aspect of middle classishness.

And of course the middle class is vastly expanding, from a couple decades ago.

Well I posted some figures in the other thread but I'll post them again here too

http://www.nationmul...s-30164639.html

The country's tax revenue is provided by only a small group of people. According to statistics released last year, only 2.3 million people nationwide pay personal income tax to help finance public spending for the country's population of more than 64 million. Some 9 million people file personal income tax returns each year, but the majority are exempt from tax liability as they earn less than Bt20,000 per month.

In the meanwhile, middle-income earners have been squeezed between the rich and poor. Some 60,000 people each year pay taxes in the highest bracket of 37 per cent, which applies for an annual income of more than Bt4 million per year. This group of 60,000 accounts for as much as 50 per cent of total personal income tax collected each year. And a full one-third of income tax collected is paid by just 2,400 people in the country who earn over Bt10 million per year. The richest 20 per cent of the population accounts for 54 per cent of total income, while the poorest 20 per cent accounts for just 4.8 per cent, according to the Finance Ministry.

Only 9 million Thais are registered to pay taxes, out of a work force of nearly 40 million people. Of those 9 million, only 2.3 million make enough money to pay income tax. A total of 60,000 people in the entire country pay the highest income tax rate for making 4 million baht a year or more.

The vast majority of Thais are not even registered to pay income tax. However all kinds of small business operators don't and still make decent money, enough to afford cars and other middle class things. Additionally many people who do have jobs where they are registered to pay income tax, also have secondary jobs or small businesses where they do not. So some of those 7 million who are registered but do not make enough to pay, would make enough if anyone knew about their second job or the small business they run on the side.

As for cars, there were roughly 800,000 cars sold last year in Thailand last year. This was below expectations due to the flood, for 2012 they predict 1.2 million sold. From tax returns only 2.3 million people are making enough to pay income tax, but clearly there is a large population of people out there making decent money that are not paying taxes. Most of those 2.3 million tax payers are not buying a new car every other year, especially as most of them are probably around 20-30k per month, so there is a large population of middle class earners in Thailand that are not being recorded or taxed.

[JurgenG]

I agree with and understand the distinction between class and wealth (or lack thereof), but re-reading the OP, I do not think that distinction was necessarily one intended.

For you what is the middle class of Thailand ? The upper middle class ? The "Hi-so" ? And any other class ? The 1% ...

How much do they earn ? What do they do for a living ? The size of their house ? The kind of car they drive ?

The OP seems focused on wealth, income, possessions rather than class.

Class :

A set, collection, group, or configuration containing members regarded as having certain attributes or traits in common; a kind or category.

a. A social stratum whose members share certain economic, social, or cultural characteristics: the lower-income classes.

b. Social rank or caste, especially high rank.

c. Informal Elegance of style, taste, and manner: an actor with class.

You can chose the definition you prefer but I was obviously referring to the "a"

Edited May 3, 2012 by JurgenG

[JurgenG]

Only 9 million Thais are registered to pay taxes, out of a work force of nearly 40 million people. Of those 9 million, only 2.3 million make enough money to pay income tax. A total of 60,000 people in the entire country pay the highest income tax rate for making 4 million baht a year or more.

The vast majority of Thais are not even registered to pay income tax. However all kinds of small business operators don't and still make decent money, enough to afford cars and other middle class things. Additionally many people who do have jobs where they are registered to pay income tax, also have secondary jobs or small businesses where they do not. So some of those 7 million who are registered but do not make enough to pay, would make enough if anyone knew about their second job or the small business they run on the side.

As for cars, there were roughly 800,000 cars sold last year in Thailand last year. This was below expectations due to the flood, for 2012 they predict 1.2 million sold. From tax returns only 2.3 million people are making enough to pay income tax, but clearly there is a large population of people out there making decent money that are not paying taxes. Most of those 2.3 million tax payers are not buying a new car every other year, especially as most of them are probably around 20-30k per month, so there is a large population of middle class earners in Thailand that are not being recorded or taxed.

I think you have a very good point here.

I can read the statistics but it doesn't relate to my experience of living with middle-class people. You have a good explanation here

[TommoPhysicist]

dxzHowever all kinds of small business operators don't and still make decent money, enough to afford cars and other middle class things. Additionally many people who do have jobs where they are registered to pay income tax, also have secondary jobs or small businesses where they do not. So some of those 7 million who are registered but do not make enough to pay, would make enough if anyone knew about their second job or the small business they run on the side.

Owning a car is not an indication of middle class.

Education and occupation are.