Thai Police Arrest Brit With Foetuses For Black Magic

[canuckamuck]

Para, "The short story is Khun Paen's wife was pregnant and she died. Khun Paen asked Buddha not to let his unborn child die as well so through a somewhat grizzly process Khun Paen's son was 'born' and helped protect him."

I am aware of this story, my problem is that a "one off" incident involving Khun Paen, then becomes a general concept and practice. Particularly when the foetus is not a "family" member but a bought artefact. It's as if Thais said, "Aha, so that's how it's done" and all copied him, but they forgot the involvement of the Buddha.

'Particularly when the fetus is not a "family" member'

How do youy know my friend Samsara means we are all trapped in the cycle of birth and rebirth until Enlightenment allows us to leave suffering and spend eternity in Nirvana so maybe that featus was a family member after all?

The whole Khun Paen and lesser know rival of Khun Chan is over 800 years old and was IMO like a lot of Amulets from that time given to soldiers to help protect them during battles. Nang Paya, Phra Rod, Phra Pong Supan another classic highly desirable Amulet from the same era.

Only the unbelievably expensive and desirable Somdej Toh is more recent (150+ years old). Prices from a prime Somdej starts around 5,000,000 and I have heard rumors that Jackie Chan paid almost 50M BT for 1.

You would think that monks would encourage people in practice rather than good luck charms,. Oh yeah, I forgot, there's money to be made.

Edited May 19, 2012 by canuckamuck

[anterian]

Para, I am sorry I cannot reply in "quote" format, for some reason this does not work in England.

This entire subject of amulets, religious symbols and fetish objects, has interested me for many years. Even in England we have "horseshoes", lucky heather and rabbit's feet. As to relics of the holy cross, if all were combined they would make a small forest of trees. Islam is no better, if all the preserved relics of the Prophet were combined the result would be a physical giant.

In Thailand we see a confrontation between pure non materialistic Buddhist ideas and animistic spirit beliefs, and these latter are winning, even to the extent of being endorsed by the majority of monks.

I do not think one can simply say Thais are culturally different because of this, I think all cultures whose religions are based on a supreme deity feel the need of a more personal relationship, a guardian angel, spirit or ancestral ghost. The main difference between Thai culture and western culture is that this need is more blatant, more "in your face".

[Para]

You would think that monks would encourage people in practice rather than good luck charms,. Oh yeah, I forgot, there's money to be made.

L.P. Sinh's temple is currently undergoing a 300M refit where do you think this money comes from? Do you think Monks make Amulets and keep the money for personal gain?

[Para]

Para, I am sorry I cannot reply in "quote" format, for some reason this does not work in England.

This entire subject of amulets, religious symbols and fetish objects, has interested me for many years. Even in England we have "horseshoes", lucky heather and rabbit's feet. As to relics of the holy cross, if all were combined they would make a small forest of trees. Islam is no better, if all the preserved relics of the Prophet were combined the result would be a physical giant.

In Thailand we see a confrontation between pure non materialistic Buddhist ideas and animistic spirit beliefs, and these latter are winning, even to the extent of being endorsed by the majority of monks.

I do not think one can simply say Thais are culturally different because of this, I think all cultures whose religions are based on a supreme deity feel the need of a more personal relationship, a guardian angel, spirit or ancestral ghost. The main difference between Thai culture and western culture is that this need is more blatant, more "in your face".

Ah the absolute pleasure of an open mind congratulations.........

Phra Para

[Mosha]

Brit??????

Doesn't take much to classed as a Briton these days. When I was a child it was an ethnicity, with many generations born on that island.

[kerryk]

And thinking about cultural norms...

Taking a step back from the culture i grew up in, and observing this from the outside, there are issues that are cultural norms in our culture that personally disgust me a lot more than when somebody here puts a mummified human fetus in his own home or temple, and worships the spirit contained in it.

A few examples:

I find it disgusting not to remove one's shoes when entering a home, carrying dirt and bacteria from the street into the home.

I find it disgusting to sit on a toilet, and prefer the least possible skin contact with the toiled seat, and think squatting is a far more refined way of relieving oneself.

I have a few problems with shaking hands, as i don't know, and don't want to know what the other person has done before shaking my hand.

etc.

....having sex with someone, you never know who's been there before.

Me

[gand]

Six human foetuses which had been "roasted" and covered in gold leaf as part of a black magic ritual

The suspect bought the foetuses several days ago from a Taiwanese man in Thailand for 200,000 baht ($6,500) and planned to sell them in Taiwan for up to six times that amount, police said.

It is always, all about the money and not a dam_n thing funny.

[canuckamuck]

You would think that monks would encourage people in practice rather than good luck charms,. Oh yeah, I forgot, there's money to be made.

L.P. Sinh's temple is currently undergoing a 300M refit where do you think this money comes from? Do you think Monks make Amulets and keep the money for personal gain?

What the heck do they need a 300M upgrade for. Is it to ensure they life of austerity they signed up for. And yes I think there are a number of very wealthy monks in Thailand

[Unkomoncents]

Couldn't agree more, but most societies would agree on a large number of rules, whether they abide by them or not. Wanton murder is, strangely enough, taboo in all cultures. That's because it's not conducive to human society. Half of my family is Thai and my wife was appalled by this. I understand that some people may do some things and that those things may reflect the culture, but that doesn't make them acceptable in the context of human society (living together so as to reap the benefits of specialization of labor, etc.). Many of the behaviors exhibited in developing countries are fundamentally counter to modern living. For example, in many African cultures, it is believed that unprotected coitus with a virgin will relieve one of physical ailments. Hence the AIDS epidemic. I don't feel like I should have to nod and pat everyone on the back for things that most people, worldwide, would find abhorrent. I just want to know where the fetuses came from. That would make this whole issue much easier to comment on. By the way, I also feel no nostalgia for handshakes.

Generally, these fetuses come from abortions.

"Real" Gumarn Thong - naturally occurring mummified corpses of fetuses or babies - do come from graveyards, mostly the graveyards of the Thai-Chinese rescue foundations, and when found, they will be specially taken care off, fed clothed and given toys until they will be given a funeral. Organizers of these festivals explained me that they believe it to cause bad karma to force these children's spirits to remain in these corpses.

While i completely agree that the idiocy of having sex with a virgin would remove AIDS and other STD's is not exactly conductive to both evolution and human society, i do not see this issue of fetuses in any way close to this, other than when children would get killed for this purpose, which would be also very much against the cultural-religious norm here in Thailand, and not just in other countries.

There is another practice here, which really stretches even my tolerance - this is "nam man paai". Ask your wife if she has heard of that.

Yeah, she knows. I don't know quite what to say. I mean, on some level I understand the application of Shariah law in the Middle East, as it seems to have a purpose and there is some measure of logic to it, however brutal it may be. This nam man paai stuff, though, I just...there aren't words...Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I am not going to criticize what is done in another country by a people quite different from my own. Nevertheless, I think I can fairly comment that these kinds of things will only fly in certain developing East Asian countries. If someone in Qatar or even Singapore got caught rendering nam man paai, well...god help them.

[Para]

Six human foetuses which had been "roasted" and covered in gold leaf as part of a black magic ritual

The suspect bought the foetuses several days ago from a Taiwanese man in Thailand for 200,000 baht ($6,500) and planned to sell them in Taiwan for up to six times that amount, police said.

Six human foetuses which had been "roasted" and covered in gold leaf as part of a black magic ritual

The suspect bought the foetuses several days ago from a Taiwanese man in Thailand for 200,000 baht ($6,500) and planned to sell them in Taiwan for up to six times that amount, police said.

It is always, all about the money and not a dam_n thing funny.

Sorry not having it for a second.

There are only 3 or 4 Monks in Thailand who are respected enough to prepare a Khun Paen Amulet.

Using logic for a second 6 fetuses were roasted then covered in gold leaf to be sold? Impossible. The fetuses are indeed cremated and then used as part of a mix that makes up an amulet it doesn't form one on its own.

What could well of happened here is that there is an image of Baby Buddha which is easy to spot as he has his right hand and finger raised. Theses are very often covered in gold leaf.

[theajarn]

Don't know who's more sick ... the people that believe in this rubbish, or the people who make money off of it.

[Para]

What the heck do they need a 300M upgrade for. Is it to ensure they life of austerity they signed up for. And yes I think there are a number of very wealthy monks in Thailand

Understand the concept of making merit then you will know the answer....

Sadly I will however agree with you that there are Monks that abuse their position and accumulate wealth for personal gain.

[Para]

Don't know who's more sick ... the people that believe in this rubbish, or the people who make money off of it.

Any luck with your lottery numbers this week? ;-)

[ruddy2000]

Chow Hok kwen....Sure sounds British

[transam]

Chow Hok kwen....Sure sounds British

Yes, it's a Birmingham clan.

[pastitche]

"Chow Hok Kuen" A classic British name if ever I heard one...! Was it really necessary to have Brit in the headline?

Oh I don't know,Taksin Shinawatra is apparently a very common Montenegrin name??

That's amazing.... because it's also apparently a classic Nicaraguan name as well as an apparently commonly-encountered Ugandan name.

.

I have just read the whole thread and in spite of its straying into British citizenship/ethnicity it appears that your attempt to deflect it with an obvious untruth into another Thaksin attack didn't work. Maybe next time your apparent trolling will work

[folium]

British my arse, and i stick by that even if he/she does have a British Passport..

They give our passports to anyone these days. Have you landed in heathrow recently? You wouldn't think you where in England. If you say anything you're called racist.

Lets not forget; the most popular boys name in England for the last 5 years or so has been "muhammad"

Nice story but utter BS (unless you want it to be "true"), see below for 2011:

The top 100 boys' names in 2011

1. Oliver

2. Jack

3. Harry

4. Charlie

5. James

6. Joshua

7. Alfie

8. Thomas

9. Jacob

10. Ethan

11. Noah

12. Daniel

13. George

14. William

15. Samuel

16. Alexander

17. Oscar

18. Lucas

19. Dylan

20. Max

21. Benjamin

22. Henry

23. Leo

24. Ryan

25. Matthew

26. Finley

27. Isaac

28. Aiden

29. Jayden

30. Jake

31. Joseph

32. Alex

33. Logan

34. Luke

35. Muhammad

[folium]

Obviously not British enough.

I hope the British ambassador reads the many posts here that imply non-Anglo names cannot possibly be British.

Actually, I expected the wrongdoer's name to be John Smith or whatever "British" names there are out there because living in Pattaya, real anglo names like the Tom. Dicks and Harrys are commonly appearing when reporting even worse crimes and miscellaneous illegal behaviour committed by "real" Brits. Proof that even the "real" Brits are not whiter than white these days.

Just goes to show how the BNP appears to be well represented in parts of Thailand (and particularly on TVF). Britain has always been a nation of immigrants, get over it.

[folium]

before I even entered the thread I knew I would see a foreign name, not racist or bigoted, I just knew it

I totally agree with you. The stupid tolerant west has given thousands of passports to scum from the following countries and they muddy our reputations. Afghanistan,SriLanka,India,Malaysia and China. These crooks use our passports to travel the world and create mayhem. How often do you hear.... "Australian arrested in Vietnam with drugs or Australian arrested in China with young children held captive in room" ...theyre not Aussies, theyre Asians with Aussie passports issued by Canberra. Same situation goes for Canadians, Brits and Americans.

Its not racism.

Mercifully many of the scum who got a UK passport at birth have washed up in Thailand, great relief to all concerned.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I agree, but we cannot exist in human societies where there is no agreement about morality or truth.

...

The problem is that we cannot live that way. If we accept that everything is mere opinion and bias, then the distinction between right and wrong ceases to exist.

...

The fact that some people in one country engage in a particular behavior doesn't make it OK, by this society's standards or by others. The reason this is in the news, is because Thais clearly don't see this as everyday Thai behavior. I'm just shocked by the number of people that leap up to defend something they themselves would, under the right circumstances, admit is (in the very least) bizarre.

Bizarre yes, distasteful sure, but so are many many aspects of my own society to individuals from others.

The biggest problem the Thais see with this is his trying to take them out of the country, not the practice itself.

The objective ethical standard IMO is who was harmed by this and to what degree?

So far the answer seems to be no one, at least for those of us who believe that allowing abortions is a good thing.

[Para]

Bizarre yes, distasteful sure, but so are many many aspects of my own society to individuals from others.

The biggest problem the Thais see with this is his trying to take them out of the country, not the practice itself.

The objective ethical standard IMO is who was harmed by this and to what degree?

So far the answer seems to be no one, at least for those of us who believe that allowing abortions is a good thing.

An excellent but brutally honest post get ready for the flack from the pathetic hand wringers that TV has so many of.......

Phra Para

[gand]

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness. My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness. Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."

"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."

- Dalai Lama

[nicknostitz]

There is another practice here, which really stretches even my tolerance - this is "nam man paai". Ask your wife if she has heard of that.

Would you mind posting the Thai for 'nam man paai' as I am struggling to find a translation and will ask one of the Monks here.....

I am sorry, i can only speak Thai, not write it.

Nam man paai is a special oil extracted from a corpse, and is often used in charms.

[nicknostitz]

There is another practice here, which really stretches even my tolerance - this is "nam man paai". Ask your wife if she has heard of that.

Yeah, she knows. I don't know quite what to say. I mean, on some level I understand the application of Shariah law in the Middle East, as it seems to have a purpose and there is some measure of logic to it, however brutal it may be. This nam man paai stuff, though, I just...there aren't words...Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I am not going to criticize what is done in another country by a people quite different from my own. Nevertheless, I think I can fairly comment that these kinds of things will only fly in certain developing East Asian countries. If someone in Qatar or even Singapore got caught rendering nam man paai, well...god help them.

I wouldn't be too sure about Singapore though - Thai amulets and other magical charms are extremely popular there...

[gand]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

[Para]

I wouldn't be too sure about Singapore though - Thai amulets and other magical charms are extremely popular there...

I am on a number of MY and SG boards and their obsession with KMT is crazy....

[Para]

Perpetuating superstitions does nobody any good.

Agreed but what is superstition and what is simply not fully understood yet?

Look back through the dark ages and the sufferings at he hands of superstition.

Ignorance (not yours) is a very dangerous thing.

Phra Para

[techboy]

Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.

[techboy]

And thinking about cultural norms...

Taking a step back from the culture i grew up in, and observing this from the outside, there are issues that are cultural norms in our culture that personally disgust me a lot more than when somebody here puts a mummified human fetus in his own home or temple, and worships the spirit contained in it.

A few examples:

I find it disgusting not to remove one's shoes when entering a home, carrying dirt and bacteria from the street into the home.

I find it disgusting to sit on a toilet, and prefer the least possible skin contact with the toiled seat, and think squatting is a far more refined way of relieving oneself.

I have a few problems with shaking hands, as i don't know, and don't want to know what the other person has done before shaking my hand.

etc.

From the standpoint of vectors for transmission of infection you are making sense about toilet seats. However in taking your shoes off you are exposing your socks or bare feet to fungus or infectious bacteria that someone else may have left behind. Then you put your shoes back on and provide a nice moist, warm, dark environment which is ideal for the cultivation of whatever microbes your feet came in contact with. Shaking hands? Your reasoning is ridiculous. In that case you'd best not be touching any money. Just think how many hands you are "shaking" when you handle that filthy stuff.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness. My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness. Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."

"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."

- Dalai Lama

Please note that these animist practices have nothing to do with Buddhism proper.

It is true that the local practice of that philosophy/science (more than a religion) have been mixed with the precursor animist beliefs in each place, and that many of the wizards/witches/voudou doctor/shamans whatever you want to call the animist practitioners are also Buddhist monks.

Just as the Catholic church adopted the local "pagan" (pre-Christian) festivals, converted the local prior gods to saints all over the world. That institution is simply more cohesive and controlled from an international center to maintain an appearance of consistency over the various parts over the centuries, while Buddhism encourages each practitioner to seek the truth in their own heart and spirit rather than blindly accepting the authority of scripture and institutions.

Sayasart practices like these have nothing to do with true Buddhism.