Wife Told Lies And Abducted Our Son

[thaicbr]

Good point about airfare.

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[cjchaos]

I got my child back around a month ago. The Thai court order stipulates I get 10 months with him and my ex wife 2 months. The court order stipulates that my ex wife has the right to visitation to be in Thailand. I dont see how any school in UK will allow such a long vacation when he goes to school, he is young and it is damaging to his English ability at pre school years and the flights are an expense I can't afford.

I cant see how a UK court would support and honor a Thai court order if your sons education is at risk. I also can't see why you would have to pay for flights. If your wife has visitation rights "to be in Thailand", she'll have to pay for the flights to pick him up and return him. If she doesn't return him SHE is violating her visitation rights. Under no circumstances would I allow this to happen mid term.

Does the court order state one annual visit with a continuous duration of 2 months?

Yes it stated continuous. I dont think it is the interest of the child. A Lawyer here said it is against UK law to be outside UK for 2 months but I may get a second opinion. The same lawyer said that a child has to be in a country for 12 months to be a habitual resident. I know that is not true as habitual resident is more down to intent and not based on one factor such is time in UK. ICACU told me that If a child has a return ticket, type of visa or passport entering on, if registered at a doctors ect.... I don't know what classes as a habitual resident in Thailand though. The way it is seen here is habitual residence cannot be changed because an abduction, I think that is in Brussels 2, but a court may change that after 12 months if the hague convention is regarded inable to act after that lengh of time. I know as Thailand are not party to the Hague convention they may have classed my son as a habituial resident of Thailand when making the order, but UK also classed my son as a habitual resident as he was abducted. I suspect UK will say the court order was made out of juristriction. I suspect a wardship order would confirm no foreign orders can be enforced without going through the high court, so civil court won't have the power to enforce the foreign order, even though I doubt they would as the foreign order seems unlawful here. I'll have to check with ICACU though.

Edited March 23, 2013 by cjchaos

[Mario2008]

Locating the child and taking him back to the UK could back-fire on you. If the custody will be settled in the UK, a UK judge might not look kindly on it. This is something you must discuss with a UK-lawyer, who is familiar with cases like this.

I have always wondered about the legal aspects of this type of action compared to the initial "abduction". If he would locate his son and bring him back to UK, why would that differ and be an "abduction" where as the mothers abduction is NOT an "abduction"? He wouldn't be abducting anything, he would return home with his son after a holiday. After all, his son lives in UK, correct?

Who is abducting depends on who takes the child out of the country. (Talking about international abduction of course).

[Forethat]

Locating the child and taking him back to the UK could back-fire on you. If the custody will be settled in the UK, a UK judge might not look kindly on it. This is something you must discuss with a UK-lawyer, who is familiar with cases like this.

I have always wondered about the legal aspects of this type of action compared to the initial "abduction". If he would locate his son and bring him back to UK, why would that differ and be an "abduction" where as the mothers abduction is NOT an "abduction"? He wouldn't be abducting anything, he would return home with his son after a holiday. After all, his son lives in UK, correct?

Who is abducting depends on who takes the child out of the country. (Talking about international abduction of course).

If you reside in one country and return the child after a holiday it's international abduction? I beg to differ.

[Italian guy]

Thank you Mario 2008 for being an endless source of information on this kind of matters! I just hope it isn't because of personal experience. I have reasons to be afraid to end up in a similar situation but with a big difference: that I live in Thailand! And Thai law wouldn't help me in any way if my wife disappears with the child. I feel trapped, I'm bearing an unbearable burden to keep staying with a person that I hate, out of fear of losing my daughter. In the meantime I'm trying to figure a way out of this situation.

[Mario2008]

Thai judges are fair and will decide in favour of the child. But the police will normally not do anything in family cases, till there is a court decision that must be uphold.

Raising a child under stress of a relation that ran sour is also not in the benefit of the child, it will only get worse for all 3 of you.

[Italian guy]

Raising a child under stress of a relation that ran sour is also not in the benefit of the child, it will only get worse for all 3 of you.

True! But I can't be the only loser in this game.

I'm considering moving the family to my country. So, if one day my wife decides to abduct our daughter we'll play the game according to MY rules. I would have much more power there than here.

[A1Str8]

This is sad man. I truly feel for you, I mean what you are going through.

The answer to your question is quite simple. Let's be honest she played it out smartly. Now that you are in her country she knows you dont have a good chance to get your son back. Having some clues about the thai legal system I can tell you it is going to be a long painful process..all the court hearings and stuff and at the end you still cant be sure that you are going to get him back or not. But going through this would indicate a desperate and hopeless dad who doesn't really know what he is doing. Let's be smarter than that. Simple solution: turn the weapon your wife uses, against her. And that is: she tricked you into coming to her country because here you are forced to play by their rules. Well than do it. Just follow a few easy steps and you are going to get him back. 1: use Google and do some research on good! lawyers here. There are plenty of them. It is very important to find a good one with good reputation and he must be in business for a loooong time! By choosing one that fits that criteria, you are going to get a veteran who has connections in all kinds of places. Just the places that you are going to need help from. 2: So find a lawyer like that and make an appointment. Upon meeting him tell him the story. Be firm and dedicated so he can see you are willing to go as far as it takes to get your son back.

Than make it clear to him that you would like to make this process as fast and effective as possible and of course he can be assured that you are going to be a gentleman when the time comes to return the favors.

It is going to work but it is just my advice.

Whichever road you are going to take I wish you the best!

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[EyesWideOpen]

If you have the kids passport and you both have the same last name try this.

Make up some phoney story and tell it to her father, about wanting to make sure your son is "well cared for" and that you want to put a few million baht in a bank account for your son.

But you just need to meet your wife and son one last time before you leave in order to hand over the money and say goodbye...

At said meeting grab the kid and run.

Wow I like the way you think. To add the final touch, hire a few policeman from another area to ride shotgun

for you. And while you are grabbing the kid, fling the wife a packet of going away money.....

[Mario2008]

This is sad man. I truly feel for you, I mean what you are going through.

The answer to your question is quite simple. Let's be honest she played it out smartly. Now that you are in her country she knows you dont have a good chance to get your son back. Having some clues about the thai legal system I can tell you it is going to be a long painful process..all the court hearings and stuff and at the end you still cant be sure that you are going to get him back or not. But going through this would indicate a desperate and hopeless dad who doesn't really know what he is doing. Let's be smarter than that. Simple solution: turn the weapon your wife uses, against her. And that is: she tricked you into coming to her country because here you are forced to play by their rules. Well than do it. Just follow a few easy steps and you are going to get him back. 1: use Google and do some research on good! lawyers here. There are plenty of them. It is very important to find a good one with good reputation and he must be in business for a loooong time! By choosing one that fits that criteria, you are going to get a veteran who has connections in all kinds of places. Just the places that you are going to need help from. 2: So find a lawyer like that and make an appointment. Upon meeting him tell him the story. Be firm and dedicated so he can see you are willing to go as far as it takes to get your son back.

Than make it clear to him that you would like to make this process as fast and effective as possible and of course he can be assured that you are going to be a gentleman when the time comes to return the favors.

It is going to work but it is just my advice.

Whichever road you are going to take I wish you the best!

Sent from one of my devices using the internet

In any country it is going to be a long and painfull process with no certainty on the outcome.

The only thing different with some other countries is that there is no parental abduction law.

[cjchaos]

I didn't update this for a long time and it is a completely different set of circumstances now. I got my son back into the UK almost a year ago and it states on the Thai custody agreement that was stamped in the Thai court that she is entitled to two months each year visitation, since then I got a court order from the UK in my favor stating my son must not be removed out of my care and only I am allowed to remove him from the UK, but not for a period of longer than one month.

My ex wife asked me recently to take my son to Thailand for the 2 months visitation and I basically said no, I told her because I have a new court order now and I can't afford the airfair. She was served the court order as soon as I got it. I made her aware about the proceedings in the UK, but she wouldn't provide an address to serve proceedings to and she failed to attend the UK court, I even offered her video link up as a way to attend but had no response.

My real concerns are the fact she abducted my son before she is unlikely to return him after the 2 months, she isn't even living in Thailand. As she is not living in Thailand now and would most likely abduct our son to Africa and not spend 2 months in Thailand, the fact I have both his passports isn't a good enough reason to trust her with him for 2 months. She could just use another babies passport as his passport picture is when he was a baby. I wouldn't rule it out as it is totally in her character.

Also, he would be very unsettled, he's got used to me as his parent and is very clingy to me because after my ex wife abandoned him it left him with a fear of abandonment, he spent 9 months with her relatives before I got him back to the UK. It wouldn't help him for him to spend 2 months with a mother he no longer remembers either and then be passed back to me again. She doesn't understand the dangers of putting a child on a motorbike, she claims it would be safe if she was driving, however I would never allow it. She even tried to enter UK without me knowing a day after video calling me, immigration stopped her from entering. They called me up and asked me if I am still her sponsor and I said no, I told them everything and they were too concerned to allow her into the UK, it didn't suprise me to find out she then went to Africa shortly after being refused entry to the UK, this is where I feared she wold take him. The Immigration did say she may be able to get a visit visa to visit our son in the future but it may be impossible because of her history. As I am in UK with my son and I have a UK court order, I would imagine this to take priority over the Thai order due to the fact UK court orders govern the UK and not Thai custodial agreements that are now unrealistic. When I agreed to this 2 months I had little choice as I had to appear reasonable because Thailand and UK do not have the hague agreement in force. The UK recognized the abduction under wrongful retention meant that habitual residence was UK, but Thailand felt it had jurisdiction also. As there is a different court order in place in UK than Thailand, and the UK courts and caffcass both felt it in our sons interest that the child is not out of Thailand for 2 months each year from the custodial parent. When I say 2 months, I mean 2 months straight without gap and also expected me to pay child maintenance for that time while I get nothing from her as the main carer, plus no airfair. I became a single parent and quit my work to take care of my son so it is totally un affordable.

She told me the Thai Courts were going to write to the UK courts to show them that I signed a custodial agreement in Thailand. I've actually already shown the Thai order to the UK courts before the order was made in the UK. I would assume since I am the main carer and she was granted visitation, that it would be more an access thing.

Has anybody had such experience about a complex issue like this? I don't think I have to be concerned because I read on http://www.justice.gov.uk/ below,

Outside Europe

There are no provisions for enforcing access/contact orders between the United Kingdom and countries outside Europe. Enforcement may be possible in some countries under article 21 of the Hague Convention. See section on contact with your child outside the European Union in a Hague Convention country. It is not usually possible to register British orders in overseas countries including Commonwealth countries.

As UK and Thailand have no treaty under the hague convention then I would assume if she wanted access then she would have to go through the UK courts. Caffcass recommended supervised contact however, no contact has been drawn in the UK order, it just states he has to stay with me. As far as I know, if she wanted contact she would have to apply in UK unless I was generous enough to offer her supervised contact if she can obtain a visa without having to use the courts.

Basically, Thai order - ex wife has 2 months access without gap in Thailand.

UK order, no access defined, just states he must stay with me and cannot be out the UK country for longer than one month.

What do you guys think?

Edited February 7, 2014 by cjchaos

[Mario2008]

In the UK you have nothing to worry, you have your court order. Just don't go on holiday to Thailand with the child.

[battersea]

cjchaos... can you recommend a good lawyer ?

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