Thai Wife Underpaid In Uk

[7by7]

A racist comment has been deleted.

Keep on topic, or have a posting holiday; your choice.

[bigdave1960]

First thank you all those who have taken the trouble to post much appreciated

answers to some questions raised Owner of the restaurant is Thai with UK citizenship lived here about 16 years .

Yes my wife has a national insurance number she applied for it herself (with my help) 2 days after arriving here

Yes settlement visa does give her the right to work in the UK

she gets paid cash in hand no payslip

Having read all your coments and suggestions I have phoned her at work and told her ever mind what her Boss is doing wrong its what she is doing wrong that matters and the best way forward would be to speak with her boss and see if a reduction in hours or increase in pay (or both) along with properly done payslips in return for not taking things further ( approx calculation says she is probably owed around 8000 pounds in under paid wages)

one final thing Ive been unable to find out she gets meals while on duty can that be counted as part of her wages ? if so by how much?

[SimonD]

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Meals for staff in the catering industry are gratis. One of the perks of low-paid work...

[bigdave1960]

Yes I certainly intend to if she is happy for me to do so I am more than happy to speak with him , I am making sure I know all the relevent facts and employment law to convince him I know what I am on about but offer him a way for an amicable settlement , hence for instance question about meals at work which I have now found out come under benefits in kind and DO NOT count towards minimum wage

[daveh]

My wife's friend was in a very similar situation in the US. Some of the tactics used were:

o Paying below minimum wage (which is actually allowed in parts of the US for wait staff because they are expected to get tips)

o Being forced to give a healthy percentage of tips to the owner, who happens to be the one totaling up all the tips and divides it "fairly".

o Having to chip in for such things as new glassware and carpet for the restaurant.

o Having her employees participate in "share", which seems to be some kind of scheme used in Thailand where friends chip in money to a shared pool then get it out later.

She felt that it would be ungrateful to report the owner. After all, she gave her a job paying more money than she would have gotten back home. Ultimately, her husband convinced her to move on to better restaurants.

After many discussions among Thais, I am surprised how some Thais consider this type of restaurant owner as "smart" for being able to make money like this.

Finally one of her former employees reported her. The owner is now paying for a lawyer and is under investigation for human trafficking (I suppose this is for helping people get tourist visas then working illegally in the restaurant?). But given that the US justice system moves slowly (it's been over a year now). I'm betting she will be retired and living back in Thailand before there is even a hint of a trial.

Edited May 23, 2012 by daveh

[theblether]

The issues on this thread are all over the place. Let's stick to the OP.

The OP has stated that his legally landed wife is working 60 hours per week at a rate of £3.00 per hour. His wife is entitled to work in the UK and she is entitled to protection from abuse.

I've been spending some time researching this answer today and I should point out that I am a UK employer, and I have spoken to my sister who is a Director of Human Resources for the NHS, as well as other family members including a Company Secretary of 26 years standing, an industrial accountant, and a Company Director of 27 years standing who has recently retired and taken to helping out at the Citizens Advice Bureau. The Company Director referred me to the Citizens Advice Guide as it is user friendly, here it is

http://www.advicegui..._employment.htm

I'm only concerned with the OP, I have lifted the relevant passages from the guide, they are all in bold.The first part we need to be concerned with is whether or not the lady is an employee or not, here is the source of the problem.....

Are you an employee or self employed.......

It is very important to find out what your employment status is. Many employment rights, such as the right not to be unfairly dismissed, and the right to redundancy pay, rely on you being an employee........

It is common for an employer to call someone self-employed, or a ‘casual worker’ or a ‘trainee’, when that person is really an employee. Employers do this in order to avoid having to pay tax and national insurance for their employees and to try to avoid them having employment rights.

Now here is the definition of an employee, it may shock some of you.....

How to tell if someone is an employee or not

The following factors will all help you decide whether you are an employee or self-employed when you want to find out what your employment rights are:-

does your employer tell you what work to do and how to do it (even if you are left alone to actually carry out the work). Does your employer provide you with work, or do you have to go out and find your own work to do. If your employer controls the work to be done and provides the work, you will be an employee

how you are paid. If you are paid a regular amount of pay at regular intervals, rather than being paid per job done, this indicates you are an employee

The reason why this definition is so important is that it prevents malicious abuse of employees by rogue employers. The OP's wife is absolutely, and have no doubt about it, an employee. The HMRC would not accept any notion that she was self employed and working permanently in the restaurant.

Okay, here is the next shock for many of you......A contract of employment can be written, or it can be verbal.

As soon as an employer offers a verbal statement of employment it becomes a contract of employment. How many employers out there know that? The OP's wife has been verbally offered a position, told her duties, and has been told the hours she has to work.....here is the relevant passage.

What is a contract of employment?

There is always a contract between an employee and employer. You may not have anything in writing, but a contract will still exist. This is because your agreement to work for your employer and your employer’s agreement to pay you for your work forms a contract.

Here is the next important part......

Your employer does have to give you a written statement within two months of you starting work. The statement must contain certain terms and conditions.

A contract gives both you and your employer certain rights and obligations. The most common example is that you have a right to be paid for the work you do. Your employer has a right to give reasonable instructions to you and for you to work at your job. These rights and obligations are called contractual terms.

The rights that you have under your contract of employment are in addition to the rights you have under law, such as, for example, the right to a national minimum wage and the right to paid holidays.

We can deduce that the OP's wife does not have a written Contract of Employment, that is illegal. In effect the law allows for a period when you are on a verbal trial in this regard of two months, however after that you must receive a written contract.

Here are the Basic Employee Rights in the UK.....

http://www.advicegui...hts_at_work.htm

I'm not going through all of them, I'll be hear all night, however the employee is entitled to things such as paid annual leave, statutory sick pay etc etc An employee working 40 hours per week is entitled to 28 days paid holiday per year, not the mere 10 days ( or is it 14, OP please clarify ), that the wife is getting at the moment. Many people make the mistake of including normal days off into their so called 2 week break, that is incorrect.

Here is the next problem.....the Working Time Directive.....

It is illegal to compel someone to work more than 48 hours per week without their express written consent.

http://www.direct.go...off/dg_10029426

There is plenty to the Working Time Regulations, and it goes beyond how many hours per week.....check this link

http://www.freelance...-bank-holidays/

Right, I could go on and on about this subject, I think I have proven that under the law the OP's is an employee....let's look at the payment issues.

The current minimum wage for someone in the UK over 21 is £6.08 per hour,

http://www.hmrc.gov....-to-day/nmw.htm

the actual cost to the employer is 12% on top of that, this additional payment is called the Employers National Insurance Contribution. On the minimum wage of 60 hours x £6.08 = £364.80. The ENIC additional content is £30.47 per week, which calculates out to £1584.46 per annum.

That is £1584.46 stolen from the UK taxpayer.

The OP's wife going through at the minimum wage on a 60 hour week would be producing this level of income and taxation.

Gross Pay £18,969.60 £1,580.80 £364.80

Tax free Allowances £8,105.00 £675.42 £155.87

Total taxable £10,864.60 £905.38 £208.93

xTax due £2,172.92 £181.08 £41.79

National Insurance£1,365.31 £113.78 £26.26

Total Deductions£3,538.23 £294.85 £68.04

Net Wage £15,431.37 £1,285.95 £296.76

Employers NI £1,584.46 £132.04 £30.47

If you add on the Income Tax that the wife should be paying, and the NIC that she should be paying on just the basic wage that totals £3538.23, now adding the ENIC the total theft from the system is £5167.69.

OP, your wife is complicit in stealing £5167.69 per annum from the UK government. She is complicit because she is allowing it. You are complicit too because you are allowing it. How much more rightful tax due is this employer denying the Exchequer?

have a look at this.......

http://www.direct.go...MRC/DG_10010579

Now have a look at this.....

http://www.justanswe...tributions.html

No pay slips, no record of payments etc is a recipe for disaster, a serious recipe for disaster. The OP is taking the risk of the restaurant being raided and his wife being caught up in a tax investigation. Surely it occurred to the OP that "foreign" owned restaurants are known for employing people illegally and are often randomly raided?....please note the first one was a Thai food outlet......

http://www.ukba.home...illegal-workers

http://www.ukba.home...worker-grantham

http://www.ukba.home...illegal-workers

Did the OP seriously go to the trouble of getting his wife a settlement visa to then get her caught up in these types of raids? Where they go the other agencies follow.

Here's the nub of the matter, if the OP's wife went to the tax authorities she would be regarded as a victim. The HMRC would take action against the employer and move to recover the money lost by this fraud.

If the OP's wife is caught on the premises then the burden of proof falls on her. I can easily calculate the actual tax due just now if the OP would tell me the start date. It is very much a case of who get's the story in first, if it becomes a problem. Proactive is far better.

In that case you will find yourself in an Alice in Wonderland Magic Roundabout scenario, I have been in several "disputes" with the Revenue over the years and I know what I'm doing, I helped a friend win a Tribunal last month where one of the issues was the lack of a written Contract Of Employment.

Trust me OP, you don't want to get involved in that situation. It is brain damage, and I mean brain damage.

So in summary, your wife is illegally employed, is complicit in tax fraud, and is breaking employment regulations left right and centre, and to make it worse, it's not her fault, it's your fault.

It's your fault because you have failed in your duty of care to your wife, it was you that relocated her to the UK, and it is you that is allowing this to continue. This is the harsh reality of the matter, I'm sorry if it irritates you however I'm doing you a favour. Show your wife this reply.

To all those that are taking a live and let live attitude, an attitude that it is a good way for the wife to integrate into UK society, in this case you are wrong.

The UK tax authorities are currently merciless, they have never been so motivated to extract every coin that they can. They are using various relatively new measures to gain as much revenue as possible, and they are taking people to court at every opportunity.

You may have been in business in the UK in the past, but you have never seen such a concerted effort by the tax authorities and trust me, the Immigration authorities as you are seeing now. Under no circumstances would I expose my Thai partner to the threat of this level of scrutiny, and believe me, I know what I'm doing.

OP, tell your wife to hand her notice in, she will get a job in a heart beat, even in places like Dominos Pizza and MacDonalds. OP, take control of the situation before you regret it.......and if she objects just point out this is British culture, I've always wanted to say that to a Thai.

Edited May 23, 2012 by theblether

[David48]

Thanks all for the answer re the legality of working ...

A lot of the focus here is on the Restaurant owner and his hiring practices.

Not a lot of focus on your wife’s feelings about working where she does.

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Whether she feels intimidated by this man or not, barging into her work to 'sort the situation out' maybe actually resented by your wife, and that resentment and loss of her 'face' at work maybe redirected back to you.

Support her by all means, but find out what 'she' wants, not what you think she wants.

The end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

Edited May 23, 2012 by David48

[David48]

It must be hard for her to integrate fully into a new Culture and maybe this job is a stepping stone for her to better and legal employment in the future.

What ever you do, I suggest agitating at home but getting her to do the actions.

Maybe a good starting point might be to have her 'on the books' for want of a better term and not paid cash in hand. Pointing out to her that if is she is discovered working illegally, it may have ramifications for her in the future.

[endure]

Yes I'll continue to advocate letting her do what seems best to her, obviously being careful not to jeopardize her own legitimate status herself.

If that's threatened then she'll most likely want to give it up no matter how much she's enjoying it, but just present the facts and let her make up her own mind.

Definitely don't IMO get involved in making trouble for the employer, not your business and could well cause problems for your family and not solve the evil "exploitation" issue anyway, may well be officials/police taking backhanders there not as if that's unheard of eh?

Police and officials in the UK don't, on the whole, take backhanders. It's not Thailand.

[SimonD]

Thanks all for the answer re the legality of working ...

A lot of the focus here is on the Restaurant owner and his hiring practices.

Not a lot of focus on your wife’s feelings about working where she does.

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Whether she feels intimidated by this man or not, barging into her work to 'sort the situation out' maybe actually resented by your wife, and that resentment and loss of her 'face' at work maybe redirected back to you.

Support her by all means, but find out what 'she' wants, not what you think she wants.

The end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

Thanks all for the answer re the legality of working ...

A lot of the focus here is on the Restaurant owner and his hiring practices.

Not a lot of focus on your wife’s feelings about working where she does.

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Whether she feels intimidated by this man or not, barging into her work to 'sort the situation out' maybe actually resented by your wife, and that resentment and loss of her 'face' at work maybe redirected back to you.

Support her by all means, but find out what 'she' wants, not what you think she wants.

The end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

Pray point out where used the phrase 'barging into her work'? Please don't deliberately twist my post, or insert false meaning. If you don't understand the sentiment behind it just keep quiet.

[edwinclapham]

Thanks all for the answer re the legality of working ...

A lot of the focus here is on the Restaurant owner and his hiring practices.

Not a lot of focus on your wife’s feelings about working where she does.

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Whether she feels intimidated by this man or not, barging into her work to 'sort the situation out' maybe actually resented by your wife, and that resentment and loss of her 'face' at work maybe redirected back to you.

Support her by all means, but find out what 'she' wants, not what you think she wants.

The end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

Dont buy this at all. The end game here is she is breaking the law, as is her husband.

What she wants doesnt come into the equation , she has to learn to respect the UK laws.. the same if not more stringent laws exist in Australia.

The "westerner" has to comply with the Thai laws .. same same and very little different!

[theblether]

The bottom line is HMRC are being robbed of almost £5200 a year, at a minimum, from this employer. They won't take kindly to that.......

OP, this is serious beyond what many people are indicating here, I know what I'm doing when it comes to matters like this. Do you and your wife a favour and get her out of there.

Edited May 23, 2012 by theblether

[David48]

Thanks all for the answer re the legality of working ...

A lot of the focus here is on the Restaurant owner and his hiring practices.

Not a lot of focus on your wife’s feelings about working where she does.

Why don't YOU go and speak to her boss, or at least give her some support. She probably feels intimidated by this man.

Whether she feels intimidated by this man or not, barging into her work to 'sort the situation out' maybe actually resented by your wife, and that resentment and loss of her 'face' at work maybe redirected back to you.

Support her by all means, but find out what 'she' wants, not what you think she wants.

The end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

Pray point out where used the phrase 'barging into her work'? Please don't deliberately twist my post, or insert false meaning. If you don't understand the sentiment behind it just keep quiet.

Nope, you didn't say 'barging into her work'.

But think for one moment if the roles were reversed.

You are working illegally (but apparently happily) in Thailand for a Boss for cash in hand and below award wages.

Your wife knows this and is not happy and decides to take it upon herself to talk with your Boss about the situation.

Think realistically how you would feel?

Remembering that you had not asked your partner to speak to your Boss.

It appears that I am in the minority here but I maintain the end game here is your wife and her feelings, not exposing an illegal hiring practise by her Boss.

EDIT:- removed the word 'confront' as mentioned by SimonD in a later post

Edited May 23, 2012 by David48

[edwinclapham]

David, morals, feelings , ethics etc etc do not come into play with the whole situation. Why on earth should the British tax payer subsidise the whole dam_n situation for what is ultimately GREED!

Where does the NHS/ Pensions obtain their funding from?

Working "black" is an epidemic in the UK and I for one am happy as a British citizen to see it stamped out, and hard!

" the end game here is your wife and her feelings," the end game here is she is contributing to an illegal system . "Her feelings" do not buy a hospital bed or support a pensioner who has spent years contributing into a run down system.

It would be interesting to see your retort should this happen here in Australia, you know dam_n well the reprecusions that exist for the worker and the employee!

Edited May 23, 2012 by edwinclapham

[David48]

The issues that I am writing about are the relationship issues not the legality issues of illegal employment.

In essence I agree with what SimonD wrote about supporting her, I was just indicating that the course of action suggested may not be the most prudent.

Even though theblethers argument and mine may appear at odds, I agree with him also.

Another major issue is to not get caught working illegally anywhere and doing the best to out of her current situation ... as quickly as possible.

EDIT:- edwininclapham ... we posted at the same time.

Also I agree with you ... 100% (before your edit)

I am simple approaching the discussion from an alternative viewpoint

Edited May 23, 2012 by David48

[marstons]

Its illegal and should be reported, culture or not, comfort or not, its illegal in that country, period. Chances are other workers do not have a work permit hence the secrecy issue. Suprised some people are advising an illegal activity should go on on,

[marstons]

First thank you all those who have taken the trouble to post much appreciated

answers to some questions raised Owner of the restaurant is Thai with UK citizenship lived here about 16 years .

Yes my wife has a national insurance number she applied for it herself (with my help) 2 days after arriving here

Yes settlement visa does give her the right to work in the UK

she gets paid cash in hand no payslip

Having read all your coments and suggestions I have phoned her at work and told her ever mind what her Boss is doing wrong its what she is doing wrong that matters and the best way forward would be to speak with her boss and see if a reduction in hours or increase in pay (or both) along with properly done payslips in return for not taking things further ( approx calculation says she is probably owed around 8000 pounds in under paid wages)

one final thing Ive been unable to find out she gets meals while on duty can that be counted as part of her wages ? if so by how much?

go and vist a solicitor who speialises in employment law, should get free half hour and maybe £8000 back. personally no way would i let somebody expoloit my wife in that way in my home country. Sooner drop to 2 meals a day. If its cash in hand then you maybe liable for a good tax bill and its commiting fraud, tax evasion, few people spent time inside for that one.

it is a legal requirement to give a wage slip.

Edited May 23, 2012 by marstons

[SimonD]

@ David48,

I have no desire to continue this boring spat with you. It is derailing the OP's topic and serves no purpose. Just to close...

You falsely ascribe to my post the assertion that I am encouraging the OP to 'confront' the boss. Striking it out but leaving it in is childish and trollish. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth or taking the thread off topic by inserting an imaginary Thailand scenario.

You are certainly in a minority here, the thread has moved on... or haven't you not noticed?

I could take your posts apart line by line and point out the false assumptions you have made but I don't think there is any point. You still wouldn't get it. Goodnight.

End.

Edited May 23, 2012 by SimonD

[edwinclapham]

The issues that I am writing about are the relationship issues not the legality issues of illegal employment.

In essence I agree with what SimonD wrote about supporting her, I was just indicating that the course of action suggested may not be the most prudent.

Even though theblethers argument and mine may appear at odds, I agree with him also.

Another major issue is to not get caught working illegally anywhere and doing the best to out of her current situation ... as quickly as possible.

EDIT:- edwininclapham ... we posted at the same time.

Also I agree with you ... 100%

I am simple approaching the discussion from an alternative viewpoint

I think David the Uk as you knew it is a very different country today, we have the influx of a variety of nations (which can be commendable) who abuse our system thro and thro and I find it a bitter pill to swallow watching employers and employees make a mockery of our structure.

Our pensioners suffer ten fold ultimately as well as our disabled / sick etc etc and as I said......

Cheers

Eddie

Edited May 23, 2012 by edwinclapham

[smokie36]

Its not as if these Thai restaurants are cheap either! If other places can pay their way to the tax man then why not the Thai restaurants!!

[kennkate]

OP I know it's difficult maybe easier you live in London. It took my wife 2 years to obtain a job. She used the time to obtain her level 1 & 2 ESOL at school.

She has now got ILR.

She now has a job in a food processing factory Yes it is only £6.08 Per Hr She only works 24 Hrs a week But she gets 28 Days Holliday paid.

She is working Today 5 To 11 PM for that shift she is paid £6.83 So if your wife is working unsociable Hrs she should be getting more than Min Wage. Time and 1/3 on saturday and Double time on Sundays. That might not be in the legislation but most workers expect it.

It make my blood boil to think that people flout the law. People fought long and hard for that right. Your wife has the same rights as I have. Born and bred in the UK.

No way would I allow my wife to work cash in hand for £3.00 per Hr She may be willing to do it But tell her it is not Legal for her to be doing that in the UK.

[edwinclapham]

^^ agreed .. I would also love to know what proportion of these so called employers comply with putting their employees through the hygiene courses as laid down by legislation as well!

[simple1]

Yes I'll continue to advocate letting her do what seems best to her, obviously being careful not to jeopardize her own legitimate status herself.

If that's threatened then she'll most likely want to give it up no matter how much she's enjoying it, but just present the facts and let her make up her own mind.

Definitely don't IMO get involved in making trouble for the employer, not your business and could well cause problems for your family and not solve the evil "exploitation" issue anyway, may well be officials/police taking backhanders there not as if that's unheard of eh?

They are living in the UK, not Thailand

[simple1]

First thank you all those who have taken the trouble to post much appreciated

answers to some questions raised Owner of the restaurant is Thai with UK citizenship lived here about 16 years .

Yes my wife has a national insurance number she applied for it herself (with my help) 2 days after arriving here

Yes settlement visa does give her the right to work in the UK

she gets paid cash in hand no payslip

Having read all your coments and suggestions I have phoned her at work and told her ever mind what her Boss is doing wrong its what she is doing wrong that matters and the best way forward would be to speak with her boss and see if a reduction in hours or increase in pay (or both) along with properly done payslips in return for not taking things further ( approx calculation says she is probably owed around 8000 pounds in under paid wages)

one final thing Ive been unable to find out she gets meals while on duty can that be counted as part of her wages ? if so by how much?

go and vist a solicitor who speialises in employment law, should get free half hour and maybe £8000 back. personally no way would i let somebody expoloit my wife in that way in my home country. Sooner drop to 2 meals a day. If its cash in hand then you maybe liable for a good tax bill and its commiting fraud, tax evasion, few people spent time inside for that one.

it is a legal requirement to give a wage slip.

The UK governemnt agency will address this matter, no need for a lawyer. I would have thought that if the Thai owner has been living in the UK for 16 years he will be well aware of employment laws and his modus operandi is well established. Highly likely if you approach him will fire your wife. Just report him, authority will not mention your or your wifes name to the owner. Stop mucking around.

[meatboy]

one thing she has to learn is,how long does she intend to stay in the uk,i am 20yrs older than my wife so we planed to move to thailand when i reached pension age[65] so my wife had almost 20years work in the uk.in which time she built up a portion of the state pension and a private pension both totaling aprox 6500bht.per week which she can live comfortably without me.so the longer the ops wife continues to work without building up some security for her future will not help.when my wife tell people what she will get at 60 and 66 they say how lucky she is.mind you the job situation in the uk is not what it used to be but still better than being at home.

[theblether]

It is a dilemma but one that cost more in the long run.

Yes the restaurant is acting illegally ..

http://www.direct.go...Tax/DG_10010537

What about cash in hand?

It's illegal for your employer to pay you cash in hand without deducting tax and National Insurance contributions from your wages.

If you accept money in this way, you risk losing your employment rights and the right to some benefits, such as:

• maternity or paternity leave
  
• sick pay
  
• Jobseeker's Allowance
  

In addition you could end up having to pay the tax and National Insurance contributions yourself.

Personally I would be very careful because you guys could stand to loose more than your pittance hourly rate.

Although I disagree with your wife's exploitation, I was reading with some degree of indifference until I got to this post.

If your wife intends to stay in the UK and get UK citizenship she should always stay on the right side of the Inland Revenue. Once those buggers get onto you for any reason they will be impossible to shake off and your wife's tax avoidance could cost her the opportunity to gain British Citizenship, never mind back tax.

For the sake of clarity, there are two issues at hand here, non payment of tax and exploitation. The exploitation trumps the non payment hands down, as long as the wife in question approaches the authorities. They will act, and react on her behalf and based upon the information given, they will find in her favour and look favourably upon her.

However if they CATCH her working without payslips and tax records then she is in bother, it's not two sides of the same coin, it's two different coins.

Based upon her illegal rate of £3.00 per hour, and her illegal 60 hour week, she is earning £180.00 a week, the tax she is due to pay on that this year is £251.00, and the National Insurance is £212.16, combining to £436.16. Less than £9.00 a week, who in their right mind would risk the ire of the HMRC for that tiny amount of money? Especially in light of the fact that it will go towards future pension rights etc as well.

OP.......get this sorted out.

Edited May 23, 2012 by theblether

[GuestHouse]

I suppose that is why so many of us choose to live in Thailand, and why those of us who try to make a living in the UK struggle internationally. I'm delighted that she and her employer are doing their bit to make the UK competitive and roll back the nanny state bureaucracy that has apparently driven so many of us out of the country.

There's no way I would make a fuss to my employer about getting the mimnimum wage, and I am glad that I am free to negotiate whatever he and I both feel is appropriate for my services. If she feels she is worth more, then perhaps she should take her services elsewhere, rather than creating work for lawyers and bureaucrats

SC

I suspect that if the "Nanny State" was rolled back and the social and welfare protections it provides removed then this might bring about an abundance in the UK of what it is the actually primary motivator for many UK males moving to Thailand.

But don't rush SC - The nanny state is there for you too, its your backstop, the place you have the right to go and be comforted if your life overseas goes to rat sh1t. - And don't be too quick to knock that idea - you'd not be the first to learn that lesson of life, there's no shame in it.

Meanwhile, it is not simply a matter of the restaurant owner's behaviour being illegal - the behaviour is illegal because it is exploitation.

It is the exploitation that needs dealing with, the illegal bit is the means not the issue.

To not act is to standby and watch the wife here being exploited.

I understand where the peasant thinking is coming from (I'm talking about the bend over and take anything that is dished out to you UK peasant line of thought).

But it is based on an deep routed British Cultural cap doffing attitude laced with the neoliberal idea that we are each in charge of our entire destiny.

Members of the board might wish to run their lives on those lines, but my advice to the OP is don't standby and let your wife be exploited, help her get her RIGHTS and assert her own dignity.

That people equate laws that assert people's rights to not be exploited and their right to assert their individual dignity with the idea of 'Nanny State' that drove them from the UK - Well the whole ridiculousness of that argument reveals the truth of their motives will be found somewhere south of their intellect.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Never thought I'd see the day but I've come 'round 180 degrees on this.

IMO don't do any open discussions negotiating with the Thai boss, don't be involved in dobbing him in AFAIC that's not worth the risks involved unless you're 100% sure there can't be any downside for you or your wife from him or the authorities.

Get her into a properly documented job, if at all possible with fellow Thais for her comfort and sanity in an alien culture.

OT by the by: as an ex-employer in the US and a current employer here I have to say thank god I never had to start a business in the UK. These kinds of requirements will continue to stifle Europe's growth and ultimately not do their population any favors. Wages and conditions will continue to equalize between different parts of the world, borders will become irrelevant, both countries and their citizens need to radically adjust their expectations in order to be competitive. The only people that deserve a decent standard of living anymore are those that are capable of maintaining a variety of in-demand skills and the ability to navigate the market as freelancers, willing to move where they can fill demands that pay well. And of course the entrepeneurs willing to risk it all for the big win, but they are few and far between, and are going to be less and less willing to have their risks increased and rewards reduced by these types of stifling jurisdictions.

Edited May 24, 2012 by 7by7
Unnecessary quote of earlier post removed.

[simple1]

Great post. Just one point of detail. If the wife hands in her notice now she will lose the estimated 8,000 pounds in back pay as I would guess the owner does not keep an audit trail of employee records. So report the owner and resign once an investigation is underway.

Edited May 24, 2012 by 7by7
Unnecessary full quote of preceding post removed.

[StreetCowboy]

...

...

Great post. Just one point of detail. If the wife hands in her notice now she will lose the estimated 8,000 pounds in back pay as I would guess the owner does not keep an audit trail of employee records. So report the owner and resign once an investigation is underway.

I suppose its easy for bureaucrats and people thousands of miles away to bandy numbers about, but for the people concerned, having one's employer persecuted through the courts and their business closed down is unlikely to be beneficial in the long run.

It's many a long year since I did casual labour in a restaurant, but, like the OP's wife, I was never forced into it, and always had the option to take my services elsewhere.

My recommendation would be that the OP's wife could use local national standards as a guideline for what is a reasonable wage, terms of employment and so forth, but, so long as things remain reasonably amicable with her employer, I would stick to the British (actually, English common law) way of a negotiated contract between equal parties.

SC

Edited May 24, 2012 by StreetCowboy