With Delusion How Do We Discern Greed & Aversion?

[rockyysdt]

We are taught that freedom from Dhuka comes with the elimination of Greed, Aversion & Delusion.

I'm aware of obvious examples of greed and aversion in my life but it's becoming more apparent that delusion affects our ability to discern greed and aversion.

I can see many examples of delusion in others.

This allows them to justify their greed and aversion on a daily basis.

On the other hand my own delusion is not so easy to see.

Deep seated conditioning allows me to believe many of my actions are pure, but when viewed by another, are clearly unacceptable.

Many of these may be in direct conflict with precepts, while others can be subtle and indirect.

I subscribe to regular exercise of one kind or another.

Each of us will have their own personal exercise routine which suits the individual.

An Ajahn taught me that standing upright and swinging one arm forward until above the head, whilst swinging the other backwards and then alternating,100 to 200 times, is an excellent exercise and also suitable for Monks.

My view is that respecting my body includes keeping it at its optimal condition.

This aids my ability to practice concentration and awareness, and wards off discretionary illnesses.

My discretionary poompui friend says that it is a waste of time, saying:

"What is the value of doing something which prolongs life if I get hit by a bus tomorrow?

I couldn't believe this answer and realized I was observing a form of delusion.

The same reasoning would also allow cigarette smoking.

How do we discern our delusion?

Edited May 25, 2012 by rockyysdt

[hookedondhamma]

By keeping sila, practicing samadhi, and using panya to cut through defilements?

By no means is it my intention to offend, but sometimes I look at this forum and wonder where one gets the time to practice when asking questions via Thai Visa. If you're in Thailand, have you tried to get to a temple? If you can't speak Thai, there's always the Ajahn Cha temples which have different nationalities.

Maybe you could get ahold of Aajahn Jayasaro, or come across recommendations from other people from other well-practiced monks. There are endless resources both on and offline. Different teachers, different methods, etc.

Yes, my situation is different as I'm not a householder. But having enough to worry about as it is as a householder, why add to the bank of thoughts?

Of course to each his own and good luck in finding a satisfactory answer, Rocky :-).

Edited May 25, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Brucenkhamen]

How do we see blindness?

I suspect you can't discern delusion because if you did it wouldn't be delusion anymore, the inability to discern it is the definition.

So i wouldn't bother trying to see delusion rather discern the results of delusion and change the habit patterns that led to those results.

[rockyysdt]

By keeping sila, practicing samadhi, and using panya to cut through defilements?

By no means is it my intention to offend, but sometimes I look at this forum and wonder where one gets the time to practice when asking questions via Thai Visa. If you're in Thailand, have you tried to get to a temple? If you can't speak Thai, there's always the Ajahn Cha temples which have different nationalities.

Maybe you could get ahold of Aajahn Jayasaro, or come across recommendations from other people from other well-practiced monks. There are endless resources both on and offline. Different teachers, different methods, etc.

Yes, my situation is different as I'm not a householder. But having enough to worry about as it is as a householder, why add to the bank of thoughts?

Of course to each his own and good luck in finding a satisfactory answer, Rocky :-).

No offence taken HoD.

I think of this forum as part of the triple gem.

Buddha.

Dharma.

Sangha.

There are excellent contributors amongst us too numerous to mention.

I also think of posts as a two way thing, invoking thought in others on their journeys as well as gaining personal knowledge.

Thank you and Bruce for the feedback.

Bruce's suggestion of learning from the results of delusion, is pretty powerful. With awareness we can learn from our mistakes.

Thanks for the references and suggestions.

Practicing sila is fine but its the subtle interpretation which is subject to delusion (conditioning).

For example, refrain from misconduct is subjective, and subject to delusion.

Edited May 25, 2012 by rockyysdt

[huli]

It seems to me that greed and aversion are observable without a whole lot of insight. Unless a person is totally under the sway of samsara, surely we know when we like/want something or other, or dislike/are averse to things, conditions etc.

Delusion on the other hand, ultimately the delusion of self, is the penultimate challenge.

Is there a human delusion about what is desired or not? I don't think that is the paradigm.

[Xangsamhua]

By no means is it my intention to offend, but sometimes I look at this forum and wonder where one gets the time to practice when asking questions via Thai Visa. If you're in Thailand, have you tried to get to a temple? If you can't speak Thai, there's always the Ajahn Cha temples which have different nationalities.

Phra Hooked, you can't have much respect for the Thai Visa Buddhism forum if you think it's a useless venue for asking questions.

OK, "get thee to a temple" might be better advice if one wants the real McCoy, Thai Theravadin-wise, but asking other, usually Western, students and seekers may have a place, too. It's another forum, another vehicle, a kind of lay online sangha, even if the expertise isn't all that great sometimes. But are people looking here for expertise or just wanting to know what others think? In fact, some forum members have quite a bit of expertise, and your own responses are helpful, too.

I rather like the forum, and have spent a bit of time on it. I like to see what Camerata, Sabaijai, Phra Fred, Phra Khaowong, Rocky, Huli, Lungmi, IMAFarang and others have to say, including yourself.

Seeking wisdom is a form of practice; testing an argument or new point of view against the responses of courteous others is helpful, as Rocky has shown and found with what he learnt from John Peacock. These are ways of helping one's ability to discern.

I'm sure people are looking to other sources as well for wisdom and insight, but this small forum has a place. I doubt anyone's practice is confined to or dominated by it.

[camerata]

As far as sila is concerned, Ajahn Brahm says it can be summarized as, "Don't hurt others, and don't hurt yourself." That pretty much cuts through any confusion. I would also add that it's best to ask yourself if the intent behind speech or actions is mainly to benefit yourself or others.

[rockyysdt]

As far as sila is concerned, Ajahn Brahm says it can be summarized as, "Don't hurt others, and don't hurt yourself." That pretty much cuts through any confusion. I would also add that it's best to ask yourself if the intent behind speech or actions is mainly to benefit yourself or others.

I'm aware of others who don't seem to have the maturity to be aware that they maybe hurting others by their words/deeds.

This might possibly be part of the reason why Monks may totally abstain from certain activities, ensuring no hurt is caused.

Who benefits is a very good one, but again, delusion my cause one to think that the other also benefits.

Edited May 25, 2012 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Well, this is why we have the Sangha and kalayanamit. The precepts are worded so that following them will pretty much guarantee we are going in the right direction. Those who are not very advanced on the path or are just not very mature can ask a monk or noble friend for advice about them.

But avijja (delusion/ignorance) is at the root of the human condition. It is "the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing."

So we can never be free of it until we attain arahantship. There's no point in obsessing about how delusion might distort your views because you already know that it will. It's the practice that reveals the specific delusions and the tricks of the ego to you. It's a very gradual process, so if you want all your doubts resolved here and now... good luck with that.

You need to come up with a strategy for dealing with doubts instead of letting them overwhelm you. Ajahn Sumedho said he just watched them arise and fade away, like any other phenomena. He has doubts like the rest of us, but he deals with them by recognizing that they are impermanent. At the end of the day, only you can resolve your doubts - nobody else can do it for you.

[rockyysdt]

Well, this is why we have the Sangha and kalayanamit. The precepts are worded so that following them will pretty much guarantee we are going in the right direction. Those who are not very advanced on the path or are just not very mature can ask a monk or noble friend for advice about them.

But avijja (delusion/ignorance) is at the root of the human condition. It is "the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing."

So we can never be free of it until we attain arahantship. There's no point in obsessing about how delusion might distort your views because you already know that it will. It's the practice that reveals the specific delusions and the tricks of the ego to you. It's a very gradual process, so if you want all your doubts resolved here and now... good luck with that.

You need to come up with a strategy for dealing with doubts instead of letting them overwhelm you. Ajahn Sumedho said he just watched them arise and fade away, like any other phenomena. He has doubts like the rest of us, but he deals with them by recognizing that they are impermanent. At the end of the day, only you can resolve your doubts - nobody else can do it for you.

You're correct and my focus should be on practice and overcoming negative thought which has been an obstacle to maintaining practice.

I like this reference from a publication which reads:

Once the contemplation of the body is practiced, developed, and often repeated, has become ones habit, ones foundation, is firmly established, strengthened and well perfected .............