Traffic Accident Victim In The Family - And Corrupt Cops

[BigBikeBKK]

My gf & I came off our bike a few months ago, which put me in a wheelchair for nearly six weeks; while I was being maltreated in the local govt hospital (bandaged up and being sent out while still unable to walk) the gf, who was injured herself, was receiving calls from the local BiB demanding we attend the station as soon as we were released from hospital. When we attended, there were a dozen people in there all wanting a piece of the action; the big BiB came out and said to me, without asking ANY questions, "You wrong. You pay 20,000 baht and we finish. You not pay, we go to [the main station in Samui] and you go court, pay big fine. Be big trouble." The problem here was - I wasn't in the wrong.

At that stage, all I wanted to do was go to a proper hospital and get proper treatment, so I paid. The subsequent proper treatment has cost me over 150,000 baht so far, none of which was covered by insurance, because the BiB didn't write an accident report.

Unfortunately, these are the types of situations where the best thing to do is suck it up and move on.

I followed James whole story from the start and while he probably was put under pressure by the cops and not given time to think , his story does change alittle bit in his original post he fully admitted the accident was his fault , this post claims he was not in the wrong.

Interesting. But I wouldn't say it changed "a little bit," but rather a lot. Whether he was in the wrong or not is a rather important piece of information. This is standard TV protocol, however, which is to embellish a story to garner sympathy.

Took a bit of digging but found James' original post about his accident where he says quite clearly that he was at fault:

Posted 2012-03-26 21:07:04

Gf & I came off our motorbike yesterday - my fault - and there were a large number of people taking pictures, of both us, and the motorbike wedged under the front of an SUV, as we were waiting for the ambulance. Just wondering if anyone here on TV took any pictures? I'd love to get a few if anyone did. PM me if you did and I'll give you my email address. Thanks.

Thead:

What's the story James?

[evadgib]

"Black box" recorders for bikes & cars cost considerably less than the THB 30k the OP has been asked to pay. IMO any residents that are otherwise legal should arm themselves with one & produce the files when needed. It's a no brainer.

what is that? can you tell more?buy were?

1. A camera the size of a fag packet mounted behind your rear view mirror

2. See "Techmoan" channel on youtube for detailed product reviews.

3. Ebay or direct from the supplier (mine came tax free from UK).

HTH

[BigBikeBKK]

"Black box" recorders for bikes & cars cost considerably less than the THB 30k the OP has been asked to pay. IMO any residents that are otherwise legal should arm themselves with one & produce the files when needed. It's a no brainer.

What he said.

Scams can range from being something like this:

or like this:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmpx_2zwPlg&feature=fvwrel

Not to mention dash cams can save your butt in the accidents especially in Thailand.

I think I'm going to have to seriously think about installing a dash cam in my car. In my 7 years driving in Thailand I've been very lucky to have never been in a serious accident, but these videos go to show just how easily a little fender bender can be blamed on the wrong party. Without a video these cars would most certainly have been declared at fault.

[Heng]

Ordering a few today. Haven't been in an accident in a decade but would love to have it as backup. Anyone have any experience with the Thai heat and slightly more direct sun burning these cameras out?

[farang000999]

"Black box" recorders for bikes & cars cost considerably less than the THB 30k the OP has been asked to pay. IMO any residents that are otherwise legal should arm themselves with one & produce the files when needed. It's a no brainer.

what is that? can you tell more?buy were?

a camera in the car.

[churchill]

I was recently involved in an accident .. I was stationary and the other car , on an empty road , lost control and crashed into a concrete pole .. Thankfully nobody was hurt ..

I considered myself a witness to a dangerous driving event .. my insurance agreed ..

However the police report was made up without speaking to me or my passengers or another witness .. The local prosecutor , again without speaking to me , decided I was guilty of a criminal charge .. basing his assumptions on an incorrect police report .

To cut a long story short , and after being locked in a cell for an afternoon and my passport being confiscated , I am in court on Monday ... I have decided to plead guilty and say I caused the accident ... Just by being there I was at fault . I am in a no win situation and have been told through local contacts that I will be found guilty ( even though nobody yet knows the facts )

I then at least have my passport back ... but will be landed with a civil case from the other driver to recover damages , which my insurance should pay ..

But I agree with other posters that it seems to be very difficult to get justice and one has to accept that the least stressful route is probably the best . I would try and avoid courts at all costs ...

Your insurance doesn't include bail bond? Bummer!

IF your insurance company is potentially liable for a claim it's in their own fiduciary interest to send an attorney to represent you in court. (that's what my insurance company did when I was a witness to a fatal accident).

You SHOULD go to court and declare your innocence! Thai municipal courts are remarkably fair, impartial and just.

Court is were the TRUTH will be determined and is a check against corrupt police actions like the one you've described.

The insurance did pay the bail , 150,000 Baht ..

I have requested the insurance co send a lawyer .. which they have said .. Yes to , however they got wind that I may plead guilty and then didn't want to send anybody .. I have insisted and hopefully they will send somebody ..

I also have my own lawyer .. So it is now managing a bad situation ... and as seems normal the lawyers huddle together from all sides and decide an outcome ....

Yes I could go on and fight but just by being at the scene of an accident I can be deemed partly responsible it is a matter of % ..and to go on only prolongs the stress and increases lawyer fees ..

The maximum fine if I plead guilty is 1000 baht and then I get my passport back ... and I have been assured no criminal record .... then the civil case starts .. but I am a bit more relaxed about that .. as the insurance co should cover the costs .

[churchill]

I was recently involved in an accident .. I was stationary and the other car , on an empty road , lost control and crashed into a concrete pole .. Thankfully nobody was hurt ..

I considered myself a witness to a dangerous driving event .. my insurance agreed ..

However the police report was made up without speaking to me or my passengers or another witness .. The local prosecutor , again without speaking to me , decided I was guilty of a criminal charge .. basing his assumptions on an incorrect police report .

To cut a long story short , and after being locked in a cell for an afternoon and my passport being confiscated , I am in court on Monday ... I have decided to plead guilty and say I caused the accident ... Just by being there I was at fault . I am in a no win situation and have been told through local contacts that I will be found guilty ( even though nobody yet knows the facts )

I then at least have my passport back ... but will be landed with a civil case from the other driver to recover damages , which my insurance should pay ..

But I agree with other posters that it seems to be very difficult to get justice and one has to accept that the least stressful route is probably the best . I would try and avoid courts at all costs ...

This is terrible and quite a contrast to what I have experienced and witnessed in Thailand (that of friends too).

It just goes to show that for different people in different areas and given different circumstances there is no norm and experiences can differ dramatically.

No one can truly tell how they will respond unless in the same situation, but I’d like to think I would fight this as far as I can.

Sometimes it is easier to simply allow yourself to become the path of least resistance, it might be cheaper in the long run too. I can certainly understand Churchill for making this decision.

However, I can’t help but think that in the same circumstances I would fight this all the way starting out with accusations against the police officer who made the a false report.

Of course, without adequate back up this can prove somewhat difficult.

On the incident, why were you locked up? Was the other driver also locked up? Did you sign any Police report? We're you stopped at traffic lights or just on the side of the road? (i.e. could you have been stopped in a 'no-stop area? - I think main highways might be a non-stop area).

Was the other driver tested for drink driving?, could they calculate speed etc ?... I suspect that with an honest and good lawyer you might have a shot.

Best of luck.

Thanks .. I did fight as long as I could ... all along the police , the prosector told me just to plead guilty and pay 1000 Baht fine ...I was sure I was not the cause of the accident and was not going to be forced to say something I did not believe .. I also felt that if I admitted guilt then I could be liable for further problems ..

The crunch came , when with no warning .. I thought I had an appointment with the prosecutor in court , I was led to a police cell .. against asked to sign the false statement from the police .. I said I could not .. Immediately , with no warning .. I was asked to empty my pockets .. take off my belt and marched to and very dirty cell with open toilets and 12 or so other not so friendly looking men .

Having never been in a cell and never having had any problems with the police , and never having had a car accident in 30 years of driving this came as a complete shock and something I would never want to experience again .

'On the incident, why were you locked up? Was the other driver also locked up? Did you sign any Police report? We're you stopped at traffic lights or just on the side of the road? (i.e. could you have been stopped in a 'no-stop area? - I think main highways might be a non-stop area).

Was the other driver tested for drink driving?, could they calculate speed etc ?... I suspect that with an honest and good lawyer you might have a shot.'

i was locked up as the prosecutor decided this was a criminal case .. so bail had to be posted .. I was locked up whilst that was being paid ( I did not know that though .. I had no idea how long I was going to be locked up )

briefly .. I was driving my daughter to school .. I was exiting a small road onto the main road .. There was a large rubbish truck obscuring both my view and the other drivers view ... I had to edge out about 1 metre to see if it was safe to turn .. when I saw the other driver I stopped expecting him to continue straight . as the road was empty .. but he was driving way too fast .. saw me .. and for some reason over braked and skidded and then lost control and crashed .. The prosecutors report based on the police report forgot to mention the rubbish truck !

No tests were made on myself or the other driver..... and he was driving too fast ...and did not have any insurance ..

PS I think the OP mentioned Samui...so was this accident ..

I contacted the British Embassy , who tried to request a copy of the police report from Nathon Police but they were unable to contact them ... ! either the phone not answered or calls not returned .

Edited May 26, 2012 by churchill

[taninthai]

^

sounds like 50/50 blame to me and would be a fair outcome

Have to say your insurance company seem completely useless was the insurance called and no vehicles moved until they arrived on the scene of the accident

Edited May 26, 2012 by taninthai

[richard_smith237]

Did the other car have its compulsory insurance? Por-ror-bor (or something which sounds like that)... If not, he shouldn't have been on the road in the first place and you could plead that.

But, after describing your accident, I would say you are in no way at fault. However, I can see how that in Thailand some may place a percentage of the blame at your feet as they believe you inadvertently caused the accident (as did the speed and careless driving of the other driver).

Tough one - Again good luck, I hope this costs you nothing more in the civil case.

[churchill]

Did the other car have its compulsory insurance? Por-ror-bor (or something which sounds like that)... If not, he shouldn't have been on the road in the first place and you could plead that.

But, after describing your accident, I would say you are in no way at fault. However, I can see how that in Thailand some may place a percentage of the blame at your feet as they believe you inadvertently caused the accident (as did the speed and careless driving of the other driver).

Tough one - Again good luck, I hope this costs you nothing more in the civil case.

Thanks .. I believe the other car had no insurance ..which is why , imo , the case has been stacked against me so my insurance is forced to pay .

[churchill]

^

sounds like 50/50 blame to me and would be a fair outcome

Have to say your insurance company seem completely useless was the insurance called and no vehicles moved until they arrived on the scene of the accident

Unfortunately I did back my car the 1 metre I was sticking into the road , as my daughter , one of her teachers and her son were in the back and I considered it unsafe ..it was an instant reaction , and i realise a mistake . My insurance company was called and was on site within an hour ..but of no use after that .

[richard_smith237]

Maybe you could accept blame for 50% of the accident, but object that you are 100% at fault.

What does pleading guilty do over pleading innocent? i.e. could any additional charges be brought against you if you plead innocent, or for 50% of the blame and they charge you with 100% of the blame?

I wouldn't wish to give in so easily, I'd like to protect myself from any civil action as much as possible. If you plead guilty are you sure your insurance will back any claims made against you in a civil case?

[churchill]

Maybe you could accept blame for 50% of the accident, but object that you are 100% at fault.

What does pleading guilty do over pleading innocent? i.e. could any additional charges be brought against you if you plead innocent, or for 50% of the blame and they charge you with 100% of the blame?

I wouldn't wish to give in so easily, I'd like to protect myself from any civil action as much as possible. If you plead guilty are you sure your insurance will back any claims made against you in a civil case?

One is never sure ... but as I understand it if the Judge accepts my guilty plea then my insurance company will be liable .... and they have accepted this verbally . If the other driver claims a reasonable amount I assume my insurance will agree to pay and so no more court action ...but If he claims a silly amount then the civil case will go forward .

If I carry on fighting it is probable that I will be found partly liable .. which will muddle the following civil case with my insurers .. and will mean increased costs , court visits , stress etc .. also most importantly I will not have my passport .. and although I can request it in emergencies I do not want to have to rely to the Thai court system to be able to travel .

[taninthai]

I can't get my head around the fact that your insurance is going to be willing to pay out to an un insured vehicle there is no damage to your vehicle so it's only repairs to other vehicle would have thought the insurance company would have fought and worked a bit harder on this one but maybe it's just my western thinking.

Yes moving the car was not the best thing to do I suppose the other party is simply saying you were out in the middle of the road and there is no way to disprove it

[jamesbrock]

Dear James,

I'm not attacking you, I'm just asking for more details, because the story, as you've reported it in this thread, doesn't make much sense.

There has to be more to the story. And it seems, from subsequent posts that indeed there is more to the story. (I guess it's covered in another thread? Perhaps you can provide a link?)

I don't want to ASSUME anything, but either you were guilty or you weren't. I realize that sometimes even if innocent it's still easier and less headache to just pay off the cops in Thailand. If that's the case, please say so.

Your comment about needing a police report in order for your insurance to cover your medical bills also sounds a bit suspect. When I crashed my bike my health insurance company (BUPA) didn't require or ask for a police report. But it's stated quite clearly in the policy that I'm not covered if driving drunk and also that coverage limits are 50% for motorcycle accidents. (This type of language is common to pretty much all health insurance policies I looked at prior to choosing BUPA).

Wishing you a full and speedy recovery. Again, I'm not here to attack you, I just want to understand why you had to pay 20,000 Baht when you say that you weren't in the wrong. Was is blatant police corruption or were you actually in the wrong?

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

Ride on!

Tony

Ok, no problems Tony. Apologies for taking it the wrong way. That happens a lot with written communication.

As for my story "changing a little bit" - it did, but I only left out information the I didn't deem relevant lest the post be too long, and included two months of retrospection.

While I fully accept that I do not posses the required riding skills to recover once my rear wheel slips out from underneath my bike, it was a patch of water deliberately and IMO unnecessarily sprayed across the road that caused the rear wheel to slip in the first place. In those first few days after the accident (the thread linked to above was started the day after) it was my own poor riding skills that I blamed for coming off - had I been a better rider, I could have recovered; however, over the past few months it has become clear that the water sprayed across the road was the direct cause, and the loss of traction was simply the effect.

Do I blame the shopkeeper for my loss of traction? You bet! Do I still think a better rider could have recovered? Of course! Was I "in the wrong"? No, I don't think I was. Do you?

[jamesbrock]

Paid for WHAT?

As you may have read in the thread linked to, we had only just taken off, so weren't going very fast at all; however, we were going fast enough to slide across the yellow line (or, more accurately, as can be seen by the gouges still in the road, bounce) directly into the path of a (by the driver's own admission) speeding pick-up. Allegedly, a second motorbike was damaged as del, although I didn't see that at all while waiting for the ambulance. So I had to pay for the damages to both vehicles, as well as loss of earnings to the driver of the pick-up, and his boss. The driver told a mutual friend that he received 7000 baht.

Go to court for what?

That was never fully spelled out. But I assume it could be for anything.

What law(s) are you accused of violating that would lead to a 20k Baht fine?

They were never spelled out. And, it wasn't a 'fine'; there was no receipt, nothing written anywhere, and no police report filed. It was extortion in its purest form. Pay up, or we'll make you wish you had.

[jamesbrock]

What did the police say you did wrong?

They blamed me for damaging the other two vehicles. They asked me no questions as to the specifics of the crash whatsoever, it had obviously already been discussed while they were waiting for the hospital to release me.

Drunk?

No.

Was your bike insured?

It was a rental. Its damages were sorted out directly with the owner. My gf tried to get the insurance details from the owner, to help with the medical costs, but was told she couldn't as I didn't die. She went around to the police station to question this, and was told it didn't matter as a police report was never filed. At that, she angrily yelled out, "Do you want more money??" and stormed out.

Did you have a valid license?

That question was never asked. They never asked to see any ID at all, or get any other details than my gf's mobile number at the scene; they never even asked for my name!

Whether anyone agrees with the law of cause and effect, or believes I was 'in the wrong' or not is irrelevant to me; the fact that I damaged two (or three) vehicles is not in question, and I would happily have paid for any damages that the accident caused without complaint - if that's all they wanted. However, the way they were all waiting while I was being maltreated in the first hospital, the demand that I attend the police station before seeking proper medical treatment, they way the shake down happened, what was threatened, and the over the top amount of money, and the fact that there is no record of this at all proves that this was extortion. Nothing more, nothing less.

[jamesbrock]

PS I think the OP mentioned Samui...so was this accident ..

Sorry to hear of your troubles. That is a terrible situation, and mine pales in comparison; however it's exactly what I was hoping to avoid by coughing up the cash.

It comes as no surprise that it happened in Samui - that's where my incident took place.

[taninthai]

I don't think this was extortion at all yes you were pressured but you let them pressure you they don't know if your a long term stayer or just a tourist who could have been leaving the next day

Water on the road is common in Thailand it doesn't really take an experienced rider to know that their is not as much grip there as on dry roads ,I look at it from the car drivers view who is also a victim here driving along on his side of the road and a guy on a bike crosses to his side and hits his car , I would also be straight down the pOlice station wanting money for repairs to my car asap sorry just don't see any extortion there.

Seriously how can you blame the shopkeeper he is probably thinking along the same lines if the ferang new how to ride properly had safety gear etc riding bikes is not about having the experience to recover the situation if it all goes wrong it's about seeing the situation before it happens and making adjustments so said situation does not occur in the first place all this you failed to do

[Trembly]

If your wife wants to see 'justice' done then her best bet would be to find a policeman (say, Inspector or Superintendent) who is over the heads of the police who wrote said report and pay him to squash it. From amphoe level the police chain of command goes from province to regional sector. Northern Isan is Sector 4 and Southern Isan is Sector 3.

If your wife is closely related to any Kha-Rachagan (translation : "Person In His Majesty's Service", which covers civil servants and servicemen of all descriptions - basically anyone who is permanently employed in any Government Ministry or Department) this could prove to be a boon. Many police will happily give fellow People In His Majesty's Service a break, it's one of the perks and is expected. Speeding tickets, breathalizer fails, parking tickets etc are routinely waived upon the smiling presentation of Kha-Rachagan ID.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Trembly

[churchill]

If your wife wants to see 'justice' done then her best bet would be to find a policeman (say, Inspector or Superintendent) who is over the heads of the police who wrote said report and pay him to squash it. From amphoe level the police chain of command goes from province to regional sector. Northern Isan is Sector 4 and Southern Isan is Sector 3.

If your wife is closely related to any Kha-Rachagan (translation : "Person In His Majesty's Service", which covers civil servants and servicemen of all descriptions - basically anyone who is permanently employed in any Government Ministry or Department) this could prove to be a boon. Many police will happily give fellow People In His Majesty's Service a break, it's one of the perks and is expected. Speeding tickets, breathalizer fails, parking tickets etc are routinely waived upon the smiling presentation of Kha-Rachagan ID.

Easier said than done ..

[jamesbrock]

I don't think this was extortion at all yes you were pressured but you let them pressure you they don't know if your a long term stayer or just a tourist who could have been leaving the next day

Water on the road is common in Thailand it doesn't really take an experienced rider to know that their is not as much grip there as on dry roads ,I look at it from the car drivers view who is also a victim here driving along on his side of the road and a guy on a bike crosses to his side and hits his car , I would also be straight down the pOlice station wanting money for repairs to my car asap sorry just don't see any extortion there.

Seriously how can you blame the shopkeeper he is probably thinking along the same lines if the ferang new how to ride properly had safety gear etc riding bikes is not about having the experience to recover the situation if it all goes wrong it's about seeing the situation before it happens and making adjustments so said situation does not occur in the first place all this you failed to do

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to hold it.

While it differs from mine, I'm not about to get into an argument over perceptions, which will invariably differ based on any number of factors. I merely posted the story to let the OP know that my advice was based in personal experience, not to hijack the discussion.

[taninthai]

^

no need to get into an argument over it Mate that's just the way it works in Thailand you cause an accident you pay for damage and inconvenience caused to the other party no corruption or extortion just pure facts.

[churchill]

I can't get my head around the fact that your insurance is going to be willing to pay out to an un insured vehicle there is no damage to your vehicle so it's only repairs to other vehicle would have thought the insurance company would have fought and worked a bit harder on this one but maybe it's just my western thinking.

Yes moving the car was not the best thing to do I suppose the other party is simply saying you were out in the middle of the road and there is no way to disprove it

Just about sums it up .... I will meet and speak to the Insurance Company's lawyer for the 1st time .. on Monday when I am due in court .

[robblok]

I don't think this was extortion at all yes you were pressured but you let them pressure you they don't know if your a long term stayer or just a tourist who could have been leaving the next day

Water on the road is common in Thailand it doesn't really take an experienced rider to know that their is not as much grip there as on dry roads ,I look at it from the car drivers view who is also a victim here driving along on his side of the road and a guy on a bike crosses to his side and hits his car , I would also be straight down the pOlice station wanting money for repairs to my car asap sorry just don't see any extortion there.

Seriously how can you blame the shopkeeper he is probably thinking along the same lines if the ferang new how to ride properly had safety gear etc riding bikes is not about having the experience to recover the situation if it all goes wrong it's about seeing the situation before it happens and making adjustments so said situation does not occur in the first place all this you failed to do

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to hold it.

While it differs from mine, I'm not about to get into an argument over perceptions, which will invariably differ based on any number of factors. I merely posted the story to let the OP know that my advice was based in personal experience, not to hijack the discussion.

Agree here with taninthai. You were wrong

[bonobo]

I was hit from behind by a guy driving a motorcycle while I was turning right into a parking lot. The guy was attempting to pass me in the oncoming traffic lane. (Each direction had two lanes and the left lane was clear.) This was at night, and he his light did not work. He ended up breaking his ankle and my car was damaged.

When the police first arrived, the officer told the pillion rider that they were at fault. Then the she started crying saying that the guy had no license, no insurance. The officer asked me if I had insurance, and I said yes. Suddenly I was at fault. The officer remarked to my then g/f that he knew I was not at fault, but since I had insurance, he thought we should just let the insurance pay for the guy's medical bills

[Berkshire]

I could have recovered; however, over the past few months it has become clear that the water sprayed across the road was the direct cause, and the loss of traction was simply the effect.

Do I blame the shopkeeper for my loss of traction? You bet! Do I still think a better rider could have recovered? Of course! Was I "in the wrong"? No, I don't think I was. Do you?

Apologies for perhaps going OT again and certainly don't want to pick on you, James. But...."the water sprayed across the road was the direct cause"....? So it's the wet road? Like what happens when it rains? Hmmm.

[jamesbrock]

Like what happens when it rains? Hmmm.

I ride a lot more carefully!!

[Trembly]

If your wife wants to see 'justice' done then her best bet would be to find a policeman (say, Inspector or Superintendent) who is over the heads of the police who wrote said report and pay him to squash it. From amphoe level the police chain of command goes from province to regional sector. Northern Isan is Sector 4 and Southern Isan is Sector 3.

If your wife is closely related to any Kha-Rachagan (translation : "Person In His Majesty's Service", which covers civil servants and servicemen of all descriptions - basically anyone who is permanently employed in any Government Ministry or Department) this could prove to be a boon. Many police will happily give fellow People In His Majesty's Service a break, it's one of the perks and is expected. Speeding tickets, breathalizer fails, parking tickets etc are routinely waived upon the smiling presentation of Kha-Rachagan ID.

Easier said than done ..

Depends.

[YipYipYa123]

I was hit from behind by a guy driving a motorcycle while I was turning right into a parking lot. The guy was attempting to pass me in the oncoming traffic lane. (Each direction had two lanes and the left lane was clear.) This was at night, and he his light did not work. He ended up breaking his ankle and my car was damaged.

When the police first arrived, the officer told the pillion rider that they were at fault. Then the she started crying saying that the guy had no license, no insurance. The officer asked me if I had insurance, and I said yes. Suddenly I was at fault. The officer remarked to my then g/f that he knew I was not at fault, but since I had insurance, he thought we should just let the insurance pay for the guy's medical bills

this happened my neighbour also ,a old drunk thai crashed into him when he was stopped in the middle lane waiting to turn right

(hes american and couldnt speak a word of thai but he could smell whisky of the guy and he musta been well pissed to hit a stopped car )

anyway .police landed down ,a conversation was had in thai and it was decided the farang caused the damage

he must to admit to being "at fault" and the insurance will take care everything Or go court and there "be big trouble " and

"pay big money "

not wanting to lose hundreds of thousands on lawyers fees,forfeit his passport and then probably lose anyway ,he agreed with the story and everyone went home happy including the police who probably got some tea money outta clearing up the whole mess

seriously though ,if you cant speak thai well you are screwed in a mess like this ,the whole thing moves at warp speed and facts are overlooked as inconvniences when blame and more importantly payments are being allocated