Lightning Protection Device

[ravip]

I came across this product and was quite impressed with the warranty stated.

http://www.belkin.co...oduct_Id=481734

Connected Equipment Warranty

We will repair or replace any equipment damaged by a surge, spike, or lightning strike while properly connected to our surge protector, up to the maximum value stated on the front of the package. See complete warranty inside for full details, limitations, and exclusions

Could be a super lifesaver for electronics during a tropical storm if it works as stated.

Has anyone first hand experience with this product?

Any advice?

Thank you.

[tomat]

I use Belkin power strips all over our office (some of them this model) but I mostly use them because they actually work with all plugs and most importantly the plugs don't fall out like on the 100 baht Thai power strips.

I wouldn't trust anything to protect against a lightning strike, I think there has been several discussions on here already about how to protect from lightning and I seem to remember that the result is the same every time, that nothing can protect you 100%.

Good to know though about this warranty, but this being Thailand I would like to see someone get the damaged gear refunded before I believe it

[ThaidDown]

Yes, as said Belkin products do work, some of the Thai "protectors" have 3 pin sockets and 2 core cable.

Not being picky but the link posted by ravip is to a Belkin India site, max warranty payout 100,000 Rs, would this warranty actually apply to Belkin in Thailand ?. Have not searched for Thai Belkin though.

[Darrel]

Those strips are better than nothing but not wonderful.

I would use something like this: http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/B00006BBIK

which does protect effectively against mains-borne power surges and also allows you time to save/back up your work in case of power failure which the strips do not do.

They are widely available in electronic stores here.

The most important thing to do in case of storms is to remove the phone line connection to your ADSL modem, as this is the thing most likely to be damaged.

[ravip]

Yes, as said Belkin products do work, some of the Thai "protectors" have 3 pin sockets and 2 core cable.

Not being picky but the link posted by ravip is to a Belkin India site, max warranty payout 100,000 Rs, would this warranty actually apply to Belkin in Thailand ?. Have not searched for Thai Belkin though.

"posted by ravip is to a Belkin India site" - very valid point, which I myself did not realise!

[craigt3365]

Those strips are better than nothing but not wonderful.

I would use something like this: http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/B00006BBIK

which does protect effectively against mains-borne power surges and also allows you time to save/back up your work in case of power failure which the strips do not do.

They are widely available in electronic stores here.

The most important thing to do in case of storms is to remove the phone line connection to your ADSL modem, as this is the thing most likely to be damaged.

Rimmer, one of our mods, had his power/phone cables hit by a lightning strike. Lots of damage. Craziest one was to his modem and computer. Through the phone line. You could see the damage where the line went into the modem.

[Darrel]

Rimmer, one of our mods, had his power/phone cables hit by a lightning strike. Lots of damage. Craziest one was to his modem and computer. Through the phone line. You could see the damage where the line went into the modem.

Indeed. Power lines have quite a lot of protection in them that is put in place by the electric company but normally there is nothing on the phone line at all, and so any strike on or near a telegraph pole (even one a long way away) could easily transmit the full force down the line to your modem. Modems are sensitive at the best of times and of course if your modem is connected to your PC, be it via USB or ethernet, then the surge will pass along the line and could easily fry your motherboard as you mention. I have seen hard drives destroyed by lighting strikes to the phone line also.

Having lived for decades in southern Europe where dramatic lightning storms are common I long ago learnt to unplug phone leads at the first indication of thunder. My cable internet here doesnt suffer at all from this though (there is no direct connection from my modem to the outside anyway as it is fibre to the building). Actually it doesnt even drop out during storms.

[astral]

Would it survive this??

A direct strike on the overhead cables in the road.

This is all that was left of the electric meter.....................

Not my house, but just next door.

[cdnvic]

If you want real protection you need a UPS, and you need to make sure that incoming phone and cable is protected as well.

[Crossy]

Belkin's Connected Equipment Warranty does indeed apply in Thailand assuming you buy your Belkin device here.

I've not had cause to claim, but there's a TV member who says he has.

[Rimmer]

The day before Songkran this year I had a strike on the 33kva HT power lines outside the house, the splash over also put several holes in the Internet cable line using the same poles. A poor old dog got zapped standing 20 meters away on the wet ground as the cable thrashed around in the road.

Despite all the computers being unplugged, One of the computer main boards was fried as was the modem, I suspect the ADSL line was still plugged in and it back fed through the modem into the computer, from there it ran up the USB cable and destroyed a Laser printer. It also destroyed one air conditioning unit, one CCD camera and an external hard drive.

I suspect I was zapped two ways, one through the internet cable and also through the power lines.

A 15Mw lightning bolt that has just come 7 or more Km across the sky is not going to stop very easily, solution IMHO when you hear a storm getting close is to switch off, unplug, and turn off the main switch of the distribution board.

[Pib]

Rimmer, one of our mods, had his power/phone cables hit by a lightning strike. Lots of damage. Craziest one was to his modem and computer. Through the phone line. You could see the damage where the line went into the modem.

Indeed. Power lines have quite a lot of protection in them that is put in place by the electric company but normally there is nothing on the phone line at all, and so any strike on or near a telegraph pole (even one a long way away) could easily transmit the full force down the line to your modem. Modems are sensitive at the best of times and of course if your modem is connected to your PC, be it via USB or ethernet, then the surge will pass along the line and could easily fry your motherboard as you mention. I have seen hard drives destroyed by lighting strikes to the phone line also.

Having lived for decades in southern Europe where dramatic lightning storms are common I long ago learnt to unplug phone leads at the first indication of thunder. My cable internet here doesnt suffer at all from this though (there is no direct connection from my modem to the outside anyway as it is fibre to the building). Actually it doesnt even drop out during storms.

That's true to a degree about power lines as large varistors (usually gray looking devices which can be easily mistaken for insulators which are normally redish-brown) are usually placed on those power poles containing transformers and some other locations. And those high voltage transmission lines running on those towers a hundred or more meters tall usually have a couple of cables connected to ground which are strung on the very top of the towers/running parallel above the power lines....hopefully those ground wires above the high voltage lines attract/take the lightning strike versus the power lines.

However, for those varistors on some of the poles feeding power to your moobaan/condo/etc., they only conduct to ground (divert part of the high voltage lightning strike) when several thousand volts (approx in the 2 to 3K volt ballpark) appear on the lines from a direct or induced lightning strike...and those varistors will only lower the surge to the 2 to 3K volt level which mean a voltage spike of 2-3K could still arrive the service entrance of your home and must be dealt with via other surge protection. Plus if the lightning strike was say a couple hundred meters away (or closer) from your home or between your transformer and home those transformer-located varistors will do little to nothing in reducing the surge voltage arriving at your home's power line entrance. And then you have a nearby lightning strike to the ground which can come up through your home safety ground...like shown on page 16 of attached surge surge suppression presentation I found on the internet....so many ways for lightning to get into your house.

My worst lightning surge occurred about a year ago when a direct lightning strike on my neighbor's house which blew a hole in the top of their roof and for my house the lightning seemed to find it main path through my phone lines as it smoked my ADSL Billion modem, separate Linksys router, VOIP adapter/box, power adapters on all those mentioned devices, and two power adapters on two cordless phones....I've since also added some surge protection to my phone line circuits along with a self-made power line whole house surge protector and surge protected power strips where my electronics plug-in. I also have True cable internet and they install a cable surge suppressor/isolator between where the cable enters your home and connects to the cable modem.

I figure this low cost surge protection investment which cost less than the above mentioned damage items is a good investment to hopefully help protect against lightning caused surges, equipment/man-made surges (like brief power line turn on & off of a second or less the power company is always doing to balance the load around my western Bangkok area....and also household equipment like A/Cs, water pumps, appliances, etc., turning off and on pretty much 24 hours a day...and I expect in highrises this equipment/mad-made surges are worst due to really heavy equipment/motors like building A/Cs and elevator motors turning off and on 24 hours a day). This equipment/man-mad voltage spikes can possibly damage your electronic devices over the long term if surge protector manufacturers and others know what they are talking about....then again, maybe it's mostly fear advertising.....the more risk-probable you can make people think a certain event might personally affect them it makes it more likely they will buy your product/service. I guess each person just needs to get the best information available and make their own judgement as to how much risk they want to take. When it comes to electronics, so many folks think along the lines I'll be replacing the item in a few years/it will be obsolete in a few years so I won't take any additional warranty protection, or surge protection, or ......

But probably the best lightning surge protection is just to unplug everything and go hide under the bed...but with my luck the bed would collaspe on me during the storm.

Thomas&Betts_Furse Surge Protection Presentation.pdf

[BB1950]

Would it survive this??

A direct strike on the overhead cables in the road.

This is all that was left of the electric meter.....................

Not my house, but just next door.

At least the box is still there!

I live not to far from Rimmer. About 5 years ago I had a direct strike. When the PEA were at the house after the strike, they wanted the electric meter to turn in. We looked around and about 10 meters away we found a hunk of metal that you could hold in the palm of you hand. It was assumed that was all that was left of the meter.

Fortunately I was lucky that most of my computer equipment was unaffected. I was using the computer at the time. Everything connected to an APC UPC was protected. The phone lines are also connected to the UPC. An external CD drive which wasn't connected to the UPC but was connected to a surge protector was damaged. Keep in mind the UPC couldn't have done it's job without proper grounding!

However a lot of electrical stuff was damaged or destroyed: 97 light bulbs, 8 florescent fixtures, 3 air conditioners, a ceiling fan, a water pump controller, 3 photocell switches, and a microwave oven. Several other electrical/electronic items failed within a couple months later.

My neighbor's TV literally blew up! At another neighbor's house all the mobile phones that were charging were destroyed.

After the destruction to the electric meter. I decided under the right conditions anything could be affected. I implemented a lights off unplug policy when a storm is near. If the storm gets worse, to kill the mains in order to protect items that can't be easily unplugged.

Since then, we've had 3 direct strikes since without incident. During one of those strikes a nearby Thai house burned to the ground. Unfortunately the owners weren't home.

I agree with Rimmer: when you hear a storm getting close; switch off, unplug, and turn off the main switch of the distribution board/box! Albeit it's inconvenient, it's the best form of protection.

[craigt3365]

Wow...quite the story, BB. We had a house hit in our village last year and they lost everything electrical. Two questions:

1. My house insurance says they cover this. But you know insurance companies. The dirty deeds are in the fine print....

2. If you switch off the main board, will that protect everything????

[Pib]

2. If you switch off the main board, will that protect everything????

No it won't, but you have just created a major roadblock for one way (robably the most common way) for a lightning surge to get into your house which is through your incoming power lines.

[h90]

Yes, as said Belkin products do work, some of the Thai "protectors" have 3 pin sockets and 2 core cable.

Not being picky but the link posted by ravip is to a Belkin India site, max warranty payout 100,000 Rs, would this warranty actually apply to Belkin in Thailand ?. Have not searched for Thai Belkin though.

Also the cables from the socket to the computer may look perfect but have only 2 wires inside. We just bought one and ground was not connected, while all the maybe 20 other cables in the office were OK (we measured them all).

[craigt3365]

What about a Safe-T-Cut RC80? Would that help? We have one installed.

[Pib]

What about a Safe-T-Cut RC80? Would that help? We have one installed.

Didn't see any RC80 device listed on the Safe-T-Cut web page. Maybe its an older part number or I just didn't see it on the web site. Since the part number starts with a RC like for Residual Current you sure it's not a Residual Current Device (RCD)? What type of specs does it show on the front of it...that info will tell whether it's a surge protector or ?????? If it says stuff like 30ma or 0.030A it probably a RCD which just protects a person from shock/electocution during to leakage/fault current...if the specs says something along the lines of 10KA it's probably a surge protector which would help protect against lightning...but probably only in one mode if it's just one plug-in module.

[h90]

a bit off topic.....

The power supply....one of the cheapo power supplies just killed an electronic here, complete without lightning.

The specialist (we hired one because the broken device is 1 Million Baht value) measured "spikes" in the output.....

[craigt3365]

It's a big panel. It says:

Residential current operated circuit breaker with integral overcurrent protection for household and similar uses RCBO.

It has 3 large circuit breaker switches, one for the main. And then a rotary dial to select 5, 10, 20, or 30 mA.

It's in a very large panel, but I would guess is something similar to this?

http://www.safe-t-cut.com/eng/index.php?name=product&file=readproduct&id=28

[Pib]

It's a big panel. It says:

Residential current operated circuit breaker with integral overcurrent protection for household and similar uses RCBO.

It has 3 large circuit breaker switches, one for the main. And then a rotary dial to select 5, 10, 20, or 30 mA.

It's in a very large panel, but I would guess is something similar to this?

http://www.safe-t-cu...adproduct&id=28

Yea, that's just a service panel with circuit breakers with an adjustable Residual Current Device built-in; no surge protection.

[craigt3365]

It's a big panel. It says:

Residential current operated circuit breaker with integral overcurrent protection for household and similar uses RCBO.

It has 3 large circuit breaker switches, one for the main. And then a rotary dial to select 5, 10, 20, or 30 mA.

It's in a very large panel, but I would guess is something similar to this?

http://www.safe-t-cu...adproduct&id=28

Yea, that's just a service panel with circuit breakers with an adjustable Residual Current Device built-in; no surge protection.

Bummer!

[astral]

During lightning storms consider unplugging the cable to your satellite dish

as the dish may attract the lightning.

[craigt3365]

Will this thing help? An electrician said it helps with the "coarse" surges, but still need a "fine" surge protector:

http://www.terakit.c...E_D-2011-04.pdf

[Pib]

It would definitely help as it appears to provide one (or two) mode(s) of surge protection from Line to Neutral (L-N), and apparently also Line to Earth (L-E) based on how the main L & N wires are shown coming-in and hooked to the main circuit box. A hookup I'm not so sure about. Normally you would like to get protection in all three modes which is Line to Neutral (L-N), Neutral to Earth (N-E), and Line to Earth (L-E). But it depends on what type of electrical supply/earthing system you have and the design of the surge protector if that would be possible and recommended/safe to do all three modes versus just two or one mode.

It does have a one time surge rating of 15KA; supposedly the maximum lightning-induced surge (nearby strike) a person can normally expect at the service entrance is 10KA, but normally the nearby lightning surge would be much less...something down around a few KA. Now, a direct lightning strike like to your electric meter pole is probably going to send more than 10KA into the main service box. The 6KA rating means it can handle such a surge up to 6KA repeatedly...but repeatedly may only be a couple times or up to around 15-20 times...it depends on how the manufacturer has tested and what rating standards he's using....for a brand name like Square D I would think (hope) it's up around 15-20 times. Where the guy said it handles "course" surges he probably means surges from nearby lightning strikes and it only protects in one mode....remember, lightning can find its way into your home via L-N, L-E, and N-E although L-N is probably the most common....plus, a person really needs surge protection at his service entrance to stop the majority of the sure....and to stop the remaining portion of the surge voltage that still gets through the whole house surge protector then other surge protectors, like surge-protected power strips, would handle the rest of the surge just before that remaining bit of surge had a chance to enter your plug-in electronic/electrical devices..

Regarding modes of protection, I have a TT earthing system and although there are surge manufacturers out there that sell whole house protectors for TT which provides surge protection in all three modes for a single phase system I also see many manufacturers and regulations/documents recommend only protection in the two modes of L-N and N-E; L-E is not recommended due to technical factors associated with the TT system and if there was a constant short or a leaking varistor between L-E it could create a shocking hazard since voltage/potential may appear on the cases of electrical items.

I would ask/recommend Crossy and/or electau take a look and comment on the item's installation hookup instructions. Both hookup methods show the Neutral service line coming in and hooking to the Earth bar and then onto the Neutral input lug on the main breaker versus coming in directly to the main breaker Neutral lug. If the house is wired for 3 wires (i.e., includes the protective earth(PE) wire) then a person would be hooking PE to the main service Neutral line as shown in the hookup instructions. If the incoming Line/Phase and Neutral lines got switched mistakenly for whatever reason or the Line/Phase wire shorting to the Neutral wire then it could place voltage on your PE devices to include the main circuit box itself? Right? What kind of earthing system would you call this? Or is this just an error in the installation instructions or something I don't understand? Based on this wikipedia link it appears it could possibly be a TN-C earthing system which is supposedly rarely used but the instructions earthing still don't look right for a TN-C system since earthing in the instructions is at the residence versus the transformer. Then again, maybe the installation instructions are assuming the house is just wired throughout with 2 wires (no protective/safety earth).

Additionally, unless the surge protector has some internal fusing, hook up method one relies totally on the main circuit breaker for over current protection. Whole house surge protectors normally recommend 15A or 50A in over current circuit breaker protection...this whole house protector would probably recommend a 15A breaker since it's only a 15KA protector. But if the main breaker used in a person's main circuit box is higher, like maybe in the 50A to 80A ballpark then if the surge protector decides to short out and if it don't have any surge protector internal fusing (it probably does) then there would be a lot of current feeding the smoke until the main breaker tripped...if it trips. But if it's like a lot of Thai main circuit boxes been feed by a 15A service with a 10A main circuit breaker then this 15KA protector would have the right sized circuit breaker protecting it. And then hook up method two shows "no" circuit breaker protection since the protector hook wires are hooked to the incoming side of the main breaker.

Something just don't seem right about how the incoming Neutral service wire is hooked up in the main circuit box but I could be wrong--won't be the first or last time...and Thailand is definitely the Land of Electrical Surprises. Cheers.

[Crossy]

Feeding the incoming neutral via the earth bar with a local earth stake is the standard Thai implementation of TN-C-S with MEN, it is incidentally also how the NEC requires the same connection in the US.

Personally I don't like it, but since the local regulations require it, so be it.

HOWEVER.

If you currently have a TT system you should not connect like this, adding a MEN link to an area which is not TN-C-S is potentially dangerous.

To our surge arrestor arrangements.

If you have MEN then a single arrestor between L and E is required (the N is already connected to E so no significant surge voltage can be generated between them). The surge arrestor must be protected by its own MCB in case the arrestor fails short (as they do sometimes), this MCB is usually fairly low rated (10A or so), the energy in even a 15kA surge is too small and fast for the electromechanical MCB to react.

If you have a TT system you need two arrestors, one connected L-E and the other N-E, the L-E arrestor needs an MCB, the N-E arrestor does not as no significant voltage is normally present and a shorted arrestor will not pose any danger of fire. Providing L-N protection is not often done, mainly on cost grounds but electronics tends to be most robust in this mode anyway and the L-E and N-E modes will normally provide sufficient protection.

Our house is currently wired TT, we have two 100kA arrestors L-E and N-E, when we have permanent power (i.e. when we move in) I will connect our MEN link and make it TN-C-S as the area has MEN implemented (this from the PEA inspector who visited yesterday).

[Pib]

If you have a TT system you need two arrestors, one connected L-E and the other N-E, the L-E arrestor needs an MCB, the N-E arrestor does not as no significant voltage is normally present and a shorted arrestor will not pose any danger of fire. Providing L-N protection is not often done, mainly on cost grounds but most electronics is most robust in this mode anyway and the L-E and N-E modes will normally provide sufficient protection.

You sure about the L-E on a TT system. Almost everything I've seen says L-N and N-E like the cuts & pastes from manufacturer presentations/documents showing surge arrestor connections for TT systems. For example, see attachments. The particulars attachments are for 3 phase power but each phase is an identical hookup for the arrestors (varistors, spark gap, etc) which means a single phase should be the same in terms of L-N and N-E on a TT system.

As FYI, the first attachment also shows a TN-S or TN-C-S arrestor hookup and it shows L-E and N-E setup but for a TT setup L-N and N-E. But if I read your post right you say L-E and N-E is for TT systems. I'm confused.

[Pib]

Just to add a little more to my above post, where I said almost everything I had found for a TT system seemed to recommend L-N and N-E, there have been other manufacturer documents I've googled across that recommend L-N and L-E such as the attached UK based ProTech document and below partial quote.

In TN-C-S Systems connect the device between the Line conductor and Earth

In TN-S and TT Systems connect the device between Line and both Neutral and Earth

Maybe the answer is surge protection in all three modes, L-E, L-N, and N-E, is safe and OK for a TT system?

ProTech surge-guard.pdf

[Crossy]

I'm no expert on these things, so I too have to rely on the instructions.

The cartridge based units I have which are DIN mount have three terminals (L, N and E) and two arrestor cartridges. The carts definitely connect between L-E and N-E. The data sheets indicate that this unit is suitable for TT, TN-S and TN-C-S supplies.

If you look at the single phase applications on page 3 of your attachment you'll see TT connects L-E and N-E, TN-S is the same and TN-C-S uses a single unit L-E which is what I said

I doubt that you'll have any issues adding a L-N device but whether it will actually add further protection.

[Pib]

Thanks. And then on that same page 3 for a three phase TT system it shows a connection between L-N for each phase and N-E. Seems if you would just erase the L2 & L3 part of that 3 phase TT hookup drawing it should match the single phase drawing just to the left which shows the L-E and N-E as you mention. And what makes it even more confusing, so far whenever I've bought a three wire surge protected power strip (around a half dozen) here in Thailand and opened it up to look inside it has had one each varistor hooked across the L-N terminals, but there was one power strip that had the varistor hooked across L-E.