No To America's Use Of U-Tapao: Thai Opinion

[blazes]

As I said in the previous threads on these matter, China will try to block this through their stooges in Thailand. The article's author seems to be one.

The PRC is bullying everyone in the region. The Vietnamese have a much longer history with the Chinese than with the Americans.

From what I have read, the Vietnamese HATE the Chinese.

China has "stooges" in Thailand, but America has "allies". Nice distinction.

Has any empire in human history been as geographically stretched as the USA? Empires by definition are vehicles for "bullying" as you call it. Luckily for all of us, empires eventually collapse from within.

[Arkady]

Thanong's article is rather muddled. He didn't come up with any compelling arguments as to why Thailand should reject the overtures from its long time ally. If he had based his argument on the human rights aspects of the torture chambers operated by the US after the invasion of Afghanistan it might have made more sense but he seems not to have been bothered by that and perhaps the torture chambers were also handy for Thailand's own Muslim terrorists. He didn't explain how Thailand would benefit from rejecting the US or what downside there would be from accepting. I think it is just nostalgia for the anti-US sentiment of the 70s student movements when the Kukrit government closed down Utapao and all the other US military basis.

[oops]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

At the end of the day China will most likely swallow the region anyway, irrspective of whether the US is there or not.....as with all with all empires through out history they eventually fail and the American empire will be no different and the next empire appears to being created in China....history coming full circle...3000 odd year ago...there was a Chinese empire..

That is not likely. There are so many countries that do not want China as the world power including Russia. Russia runs around right now with the freedom to act like the drama queen that they are only because America allows them that freedom and understands that the PM holds out only for attention making it seem like everything hinges on his decision while everyone that understands this sits back and laughs. Where's China would never allow this type of behaviour and Russia knows this. If China ever did become the world power everyone here would suffer at the fate of one man with the same mantality as Kim Jung ill .

[kerryk]

I don't care where someone that agrees with you is from. You made the claim.. now back it up with showing us all where you read such things. Just because another member steps up and says "he's right" doesn't make your statement anymore correct.

It's become obvious that you just spout crap without backing it up with anything....

Go an look in the Pattaya Forum...as stated in my first post, there was an excellent thread on this exact topic sometime back...So off you go..Pattaya forum...go on you know you want to..and prove I am talking cr*p....

As regards "he's right" I didnt say he was right...I it was he who was concurring with the statement I made and went further to supply dates and locations, which was information I didnt know and didnt profess to know.

Ohhh so you profess that your knowledge came from Thai Visa forums... I see.. well that explains everything... And this is from the guy that just told me not to believe what I read on wikipedia.

Since you have a hard time reading what I have wrote and understanding it, I will stop here in this argument. It is quite obvious to me that you are spouting crap and have little to nothing to back it up with and your further posts on this have done nothing to change that,

Good thread called, "Did America create Pattaya." Far more accurate and detailed than that small blurb in Thaiways. Take a look. If you disagree with the conclusion present your facts in that thread and reopen the debate.

[Soutpeel]

I don't care where someone that agrees with you is from. You made the claim.. now back it up with showing us all where you read such things. Just because another member steps up and says "he's right" doesn't make your statement anymore correct.

It's become obvious that you just spout crap without backing it up with anything....

http://www.1stoppatt...pattaya/history

everyones got it wrong but you eh?

You made me do it....didnt you ?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/358302-did-america-create-pattaya/

Just to quote one post from someone who was there in 1963 at the and supplied photo's

"british and australian troops had an R&R camp on pattaya beach in 1963!! no bars no hotels only a dirt road the first bar and brothel opened in april 1964, it wasnt until 1966 that us troops passing through plucked up the courage to stop, this was yonks before the vietnam debacle kicked off have attached a couple of piccies of pattaya beach 63 and 64"

my I humbly suggest you read the thread posted...you may learn something..I know I did when I read it the first time round.....

[Soutpeel]

I don't care where someone that agrees with you is from. You made the claim.. now back it up with showing us all where you read such things. Just because another member steps up and says "he's right" doesn't make your statement anymore correct.

It's become obvious that you just spout crap without backing it up with anything....

Go an look in the Pattaya Forum...as stated in my first post, there was an excellent thread on this exact topic sometime back...So off you go..Pattaya forum...go on you know you want to..and prove I am talking cr*p....

As regards "he's right" I didnt say he was right...I it was he who was concurring with the statement I made and went further to supply dates and locations, which was information I didnt know and didnt profess to know.

Ohhh so you profess that your knowledge came from Thai Visa forums... I see.. well that explains everything... And this is from the guy that just told me not to believe what I read on wikipedia.

Since you have a hard time reading what I have wrote and understanding it, I will stop here in this argument. It is quite obvious to me that you are spouting crap and have little to nothing to back it up with and your further posts on this have done nothing to change that,

Good thread called, "Did America create Pattaya." Far more accurate and detailed than that small blurb in Thaiways. Take a look. If you disagree with the conclusion present your facts in that thread and reopen the debate.

Kerryk...thank you for this...know we dont always agree..but it appears you not a bad lad after all...

[Soutpeel]

I don't care where someone that agrees with you is from. You made the claim.. now back it up with showing us all where you read such things. Just because another member steps up and says "he's right" doesn't make your statement anymore correct.

It's become obvious that you just spout crap without backing it up with anything....

Go an look in the Pattaya Forum...as stated in my first post, there was an excellent thread on this exact topic sometime back...So off you go..Pattaya forum...go on you know you want to..and prove I am talking cr*p....

As regards "he's right" I didnt say he was right...I it was he who was concurring with the statement I made and went further to supply dates and locations, which was information I didnt know and didnt profess to know.

Ohhh so you profess that your knowledge came from Thai Visa forums... I see.. well that explains everything... And this is from the guy that just told me not to believe what I read on wikipedia.

Since you have a hard time reading what I have wrote and understanding it, I will stop here in this argument. It is quite obvious to me that you are spouting crap and have little to nothing to back it up with and your further posts on this have done nothing to change that,

Waiting with baited breath for your apology...As Kerryk states...please read and if you dispute what is written by people who were actually there do pop back and tell us...

[Soutpeel]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

At the end of the day China will most likely swallow the region anyway, irrspective of whether the US is there or not.....as with all with all empires through out history they eventually fail and the American empire will be no different and the next empire appears to being created in China....history coming full circle...3000 odd year ago...there was a Chinese empire..

That is not likely. There are so many countries that do not want China as the world power including Russia. Russia runs around right now with the freedom to act like the drama queen that they are only because America allows them that freedom and understands that the PM holds out only for attention making it seem like everything hinges on his decision while everyone that understands this sits back and laughs. Where's China would never allow this type of behaviour and Russia knows this. If China ever did become the world power everyone here would suffer at the fate of one man with the same mantality as Kim Jung ill .

how old are you 12 ?

[Jayman]

I don't care where someone that agrees with you is from. You made the claim.. now back it up with showing us all where you read such things. Just because another member steps up and says "he's right" doesn't make your statement anymore correct.

It's become obvious that you just spout crap without backing it up with anything....

http://www.1stoppatt...pattaya/history

everyones got it wrong but you eh?

You made me do it....didnt you ?

http://www.thaivisa....create-pattaya/

Just to quote one post from someone who was there in 1963 at the and supplied photo's

"british and australian troops had an R&R camp on pattaya beach in 1963!! no bars no hotels only a dirt road the first bar and brothel opened in april 1964, it wasnt until 1966 that us troops passing through plucked up the courage to stop, this was yonks before the vietnam debacle kicked off have attached a couple of piccies of pattaya beach 63 and 64"

my I humbly suggest you read the thread posted...you may learn something..I know I did when I read it the first time round.....

Again.. don't believe everything you read on TVF. Just cause a poster says it don't make it so. If you read through that thread you could post equally as many posts stating otherwise.

I personally know Thais that are born and raised in Pattaya and are in their 40-50's and they all tell me the first white folks they remember in their town were yanks.

here's geriatric kid's post on that thread

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry3530424

This whole discussion on this thread came out of utapao and that the GI's come to pattaya for the prostitutes and I said that there are so many prostitutes in pattaya because of all the GI's coming here.. You had to chime in with how much you read on TVF by saying it's the aussies. I still disagree that the aussie gi's came in such numbers as to warrant so many thai prostitutes. Even to this day, the US mil comes here in huge numbers and just ask around in the bars and you will know when they are going to show up. Extra girls show up to service them. Can the same be said for the aussie gi's?

Also, from personal experience.. when I first landed in Thailand it was up in Udorn Thani and there were TONS of prostitutes waiting for us when we got off the C-130's. We were even told that the girls were brought in to service us. So I know for a fact that the prostitutes come for the Gi's... and I mean that in all the ways it can be taken

Edited June 8, 2012 by Jayman

[metisdead]

Ok, let's continue the discussion of the history or origination of Pattaya in the topic running here:

Any more posts about the history of Pattaya will be removed.

Let's now get back to the topic of "No to America's Use of U-Tapao: Thai Opinion"

[thaiedward]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Thanks for most-reasonable post.

[IAMHERE]

If there were an exchange between China and the U.S. , then Thailand would already have China's buddies Burma to deal with. Thailand wants to be dominated by China like they were by the Japanese 'up to them'.

[bangkokheat]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

Oh bugger, does this mean we better brush up on Mandarin?

and learn how to use chop sticks properly..

I'm going to change my last name to Lee and stop trimming those hair growing out of my mole.

dont talk about your girlfriend like that, its mean Bruce

[JAG]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

I prefer to stay under Chinese control than under American control....

Right. Well, let's start with this. All those criticisms you post in TVF are forbidden under the Chinese doctrine. They are deemed to be antisocial behaviour. Would you be able to live without access to news sources other than approved Chinese sources? etc. etc. etc.

Good point G'kid, but I would believe H90, after all the Chinese cannot be bothered with the democratic process, and far prefer to tell the people what is good for them!!

[visionchaser45]

"But the underlying objective is still to contain China, which is rising to challenge the fiscally bankrupt US as the main global power." I'd say that ship has already sailed. China has more wealth, the means of production, and an extremely powerful military.

"If Thailand accedes to American wishes, our relations with China will go sour. In the event of a US-China military conflict, Thailand would certainly become China's enemy. Pursuing a policy against China is counter-productive to Thailand's interests." Who says Thailand's leaders aren't smart?

Edited June 8, 2012 by visionchaser45

[sunanta]

This editorial makes sweeping statements and conclusions with little support of reality or facts and certainly is remiss in its lack of history. For example, in citing Asian nations and their position, Taiwan was completely omitted and they certainly are a very sore point with the Chinese. Yet the Philippines was cited as the "naughty boy" to annoy China. What is the basis for such an obtuse editorial remark and omission?

The editorial characterizes the US as "desperate" to strengthen its military ties with Thailand. What's the basis for concluding that the US is "desperate and not just politically thrashing about before the election?" One could easily conclude that Thailand is f---ed without the military support of the US and is "desperate" whether they articulate it or not. Unless of course, they envision being occupied by China and evolving to a Chinese quasi slave state later. With 56% of China being male, you can be sure that China regards Thailand as a resource, the same way it views Burma's oil, rubber, rice, and women. The Asian nations represent needed Chinese resources and help China chip away at that male/female demographic gap in the future.

Once in a conversation with a colleague in Singapore about why Singapore had conscription, he responded that Singapore had to defend and protect against invasion by China and being subjected to communism. That got sort of a shrug and wondered why in the world they would perceive that they could do anything to prevent China from just walking in whenever they wanted.

In reality, one could conclude that the US is concerned about Thailand's ability to stay loyal to its partnership as it proved it couldn't with the Japanese in WWII and declared war on the USA. Hence the US's urgency in making U-Tapao an unflagging commitment now. The US is committed to supporting its Asian partners as it has for decades and so far has borne the cost of doing so with the exception of the Japanese navy and the South Korean army as well as the Australian navy and army. It was the US navy that came down to the Coral Sea to battle the Japanese and keep them away from Australia's sheep when Churchill turned his back on them and his resources to Germany. It was the US that came to the assistance of South Korea and lost many lives defending it against North Korea and China. So let's not forget these facts in sizing up the situation. As far as Indonesia is concerned, they were happy to swing over to the Japanese to get rid of the Dutch. Then things went south for them after and they became a very beleaguered Japanese occupation.

The editorial's last comment about if Thailand accedes to the US and sours their relationship with China they will become a Chinese enemy is preposterous. The US was in U-Tapao for years and still have a presence there and China is not threating Thailand. The editorial continues with "In the event of a US/China military conflict, China would certainly become China's enemy. So what is the editorial trying to say? The editorial makes a weak argument for reaching the right decision for the wrong reason. A US/China military conflict in north Asia (ie. N. Korea) has nothing to do with Thailand. A US/China conflict over Taiwan has nothing to do with Thailand, except China probably resents that millions of Chinese nationalists fled to Thailand, and became a psuedo type of Taiwan.

Hopefully, Thailand will say no to U-Tapao and save the US taxpayers a lot of expense in pandering to the Thais and utilizing US taxpayer money once again to line the pockets of Thais. The US has better fish to fry in its own backyard economy, and it needs to utilize Australia, the Philippines, and other resources in Asia Pacific for its accelerated arsenal. Let Thailand swing in the wind on this one and figure out how to play it on their own. The US Generals and Leon Panetta should let this decision be made after the election and not push the Thais with monetary enticements that belong to the American people.

well said...they always back the nag..

[kerryk]

"But the underlying objective is still to contain China, which is rising to challenge the fiscally bankrupt US as the main global power." I'd say that ship has already sailed. China has more wealth, the means of production, and an extremely powerful military.

"If Thailand accedes to American wishes, our relations with China will go sour. In the event of a US-China military conflict, Thailand would certainly become China's enemy. Pursuing a policy against China is counter-productive to Thailand's interests." Who says Thailand's leaders aren't smart?

Almost everyone who posts on Thai Visa.

[OzMick]

"But the underlying objective is still to contain China, which is rising to challenge the fiscally bankrupt US as the main global power." I'd say that ship has already sailed. China has more wealth, the means of production, and an extremely powerful military.

"If Thailand accedes to American wishes, our relations with China will go sour. In the event of a US-China military conflict, Thailand would certainly become China's enemy. Pursuing a policy against China is counter-productive to Thailand's interests." Who says Thailand's leaders aren't smart?

The problem is that most of the US debt is owed to China. The historical precedent for this, repeated untold times, is to declare war and tell the creditor to do what a duck can't - stick your bill in your @rse.

Edited June 8, 2012 by OzMick

[Johpa]

As I said in the previous threads on these matter, China will try to block this through their stooges in Thailand. The article's author seems to be one.

The PRC is bullying everyone in the region. The Vietnamese have a much longer history with the Chinese than with the Americans.

From what I have read, the Vietnamese HATE the Chinese.

The difference between Vietnam and Thailand is that Vietnam is not controled and ruled by a dominating ethnic Chinese minority. Although 20 yeasr ago or so much of the wealth extracted from Thailand was reinvested in the US. Today much of the extracted wealth is invested into China, the home country, e.g., the CP Group. Although ironically a signifcant sum of accumulated wealth, hard assets, were sold to Vietnam via a Chinese (PRC) middleman with the money relocated elsewhere, probably Switzerland. So Thailand will remain a rather unique shared colony of the PRC and the US.

[KeyserSoze01]

Maybe we will get a Thai astronaut out of this deal. Heck,all China wants is to annex Thailand anyway.......BamBoo sunclock.....

That may be a bit difficult as they don't share a border. So, unless China is going to over run Myanmar and / or Laos, Thailand has nothing to worry about from the Chinese. I would be more worried about the US's intention and what repercussions would fall on Thailand for hosting an aggressor nation.

[khaowong1]

China is Thailand's direct competitor for exports and has already badly damaged Thailand rice industry with the manipulation of their currency. The United States on the other hand has been Thailand's #1 ally in terms of trade and foreign policy for more than a century. Cowtowing to China who look to exploit Thailand more than anything else is plain foolish. Thailand's relations with the US is FAR more important than appeasing the Chinese.

look at this way...China is the new big boy on the block and will end up being the worlds only superpower whether you like it or not...So Thailand would be very wise to Kowtow down to China....

It is my belief that China will end up "owing" most the US over the next 20 years or so...

Don't bet your house on that.

[KeyserSoze01]

China is Thailand's direct competitor for exports and has already badly damaged Thailand rice industry with the manipulation of their currency. The United States on the other hand has been Thailand's #1 ally in terms of trade and foreign policy for more than a century. Cowtowing to China who look to exploit Thailand more than anything else is plain foolish. Thailand's relations with the US is FAR more important than appeasing the Chinese.

look at this way...China is the new big boy on the block and will end up being the worlds only superpower whether you like it or not...So Thailand would be very wise to Kowtow down to China....

It is my belief that China will end up "owing" most the US over the next 20 years or so...

100 years, possibly. 20 years, no way. The only aggressor nation on the planet today is the US. They will not give up that role easily as they feel justified in their actions by being the "world cop" to administer western values across the planet. Misguided fools if you ask me. Get your own house in order before you try to impose your beliefs on someone else.

[KeyserSoze01]

Oh Goody...I can't remember the last time there was a good round of America bashing on TV.

In this case it is well deserved. BTW, I'm American myself. The military industrial complex has had a stranglehold on the US for the last 60 years. It's time to stop and focus on the future instead of forcing your ideology down people's throats at the end of a bayonet. Hasn't worked that well in the Middle East, now has it?

[bumpkin]

The many amusing comments written here demonstrate one thing, that there is great confidence in ignorance !

And for our dear USA friends, there is another version of history apart for that emanating from Hollywood and Walt Disney.

[secondhome]

I was stationed there during the American War. I now teach Law and English at the university-level in BKK and all of Vietnam. Some valid points made both by pros and cons. However, inaccuracies posted on both sides. Think critically!

[KeyserSoze01]

Remember who funded and built Utapao? The US. American military forces won't be stopped. I wonder how much they have donated this time to set up camp again. In any event, we all know that everyone has their price, and here, more than anywhere. Obviously China hasn't opened up their wallet as much as the US. Big Money goes around the world.

The irony is that the US is borrowing the money from China to further bolster their position in SEA. You can't make this stuff up.

[kerryk]

China is Thailand's direct competitor for exports and has already badly damaged Thailand rice industry with the manipulation of their currency. The United States on the other hand has been Thailand's #1 ally in terms of trade and foreign policy for more than a century. Cowtowing to China who look to exploit Thailand more than anything else is plain foolish. Thailand's relations with the US is FAR more important than appeasing the Chinese.

look at this way...China is the new big boy on the block and will end up being the worlds only superpower whether you like it or not...So Thailand would be very wise to Kowtow down to China....

It is my belief that China will end up "owing" most the US over the next 20 years or so...

100 years, possibly. 20 years, no way. The only aggressor nation on the planet today is the US. They will not give up that role easily as they feel justified in their actions by being the "world cop" to administer western values across the planet. Misguided fools if you ask me. Get your own house in order before you try to impose your beliefs on someone else.

I think you are correct but your motivation is wrong. Profit is the driving force. Americans don't want to be cops (well except for those kind of guys who even do it for free, you can see them in Pattaya) but I mean normal people. I never figured out military policeman either. Americans don't realize just how much their allies hate them. If they read Thai Visa for a year I guarantee you foreign aid would completely stop. I tell everyone I know to log on and wake up. It is not that people are not grateful but they are downright hateful and Americans don't have a clue.Americans travel, check the below passport numbers. NEW JERSEY 68.36% ALASKA 65.01% MASSACHUSETTS 63.42% NEW YORK 62.47% CALIFORNIA 60.19% NEW HAMPSHIRE 59.39% CONNECTICUT 58.50% WASHINGTON 57.28% VERMONT 56.32% MARYLAND 56.21% MINNESOTA 56.14% COLORADO 54.88% RHODE ISLAND 54.40% FLORIDA 52.83% but even with the travel they don't seem to grasp the venom that is spewed out at them when they are not looking. Reading Thai Visa can fill this void in the average Americans knowledge. That's why I tell Americans about Thai Visa. It is a necessary part of education that is missing from the average US citizens life experience. I mean gee, the US built U-Tapao and saved Thailand from the same fate as befell the countries around them. The Thai economy is quite a bit more robust than Laos, Cambodia, Burma or Vietnam; all close allies of China (at least during that war period).

[metisdead]

Off topic and inflammatory posts have been removed. This topic is not about where the US gets it's oil from or who the biggest supplier of US oil is. Please stay on topic.

[cigar7]

China is clearly getting out of control and countries like Thailand or The Philippines, can never defend themselves against a country like China. India also needs to get more involved in controlling and limiting China. China is biggest threat to democracy and freedom.

[VegasVic]

The USA, The USA, why, why, why, can't the just mind their own business. All they can think about is destruction. Why can't they just get on with their own business and leave everyone else alone.

Yes indeed why cant those yanks just mind their own business and forget about and setting up a humanatarian/disaster relief aid center and a NASA atmosphereic research center at UTAPAO! Oh the horror