Flutd

[Rimmer]

After many visits to all the vets in Pattya we finally found one that did a microscope test on my female cat's urine.

All the others simply did a gram negative/positive test and came up with nothing, so despite the cat visibly having blood in the urine they all said there is nothing wrong. So not impressed at all!

In fact I believe that incorrect treatment from the start has turned the problem into a chronic one.

Anyway we found two young lady vets who seem to know about cat's and they sent off a sample of urine to BKK and it came back with particles in the urine. (sand) they called it.

They prescribed Hills Feline Urinary S/O to disolve the particles. Fine I have read about this treatment but I seem to remember reading that it has to given at the exclusion of any other food. But they say we can give this with other food. So now I'm confused.

The manufactureres site is a disgrace, links don't work "ask the Vet" page is not working and you can only join the forum if you live in the US of A What utter BS!!

So here we are asking the question that I suspect only Miss B will be able to answer.

The cat is an Oriental white, lady cat and has had struvites and bladder problems for over 1 year or more.

There is no longer a blockage or struvites but I suspect that the bladder may be inflamed as she make frequent trips to the litter box in order to make a few drops of pp.

She has been on extended anti biotics and rowatinex for weeks on end and on the Feline S/0 for about three months now.

We give here water 4 times a day by mouth in a syringe.

Diet is Canned Fish and a little Cooked chicken on account of the fact that struvites can not form in a high protien diet and canned fish food has zero protein and the chicken some protein right?

So guys what's the answer? S/O food for ever more or just for a few months and do we give it on it's own or what? Cos frankly I don't know and no one else seems to know either. Also If she has to eat S/O for extended periods will this be harmfull to here?

Any help greatly appreciated.

R

[BambinA]

Diet is Canned Fish and a little Cooked chicken on account of the fact that struvites can not form in a high protien diet and canned fish food has zero protein and the chicken some protein right?

So guys what's the answer? S/O food for ever more or just for a few months and do we give it on it's own or what? Cos frankly I don't know and no one else seems to know either. Also If she has to eat S/O for extended periods will this be harmfull to here?

Struvite -Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate

management

- dietary dissolution(acidifying diet, low in Cal. Mg and PO4

- s/d use for make acidify the urine of cat , but should be used only as need to main tain the urine pH between 6-7

urinary and s/d diet should not be use in young cats, as they may induce acidemia and anorexia..other low mineral diets ,such as feline c/d maybe benefit in the preventation of recurrence

[bina]

i'm not the cat person.... but...

twenty some years ago when i worked in a kennel and had to deal with cats also, we had some that got something like aci-gel smeared on their nose (they lick it off) to increase acidity content...

in dogs, we salted their food to increase water intake for the males with cystitis; dont know if this is similar or not??

fish has protein so does chicken ; could it be the 'ash' content u are thinking of?

uekenuba etc have special diet cans u might want to check it out...

also, check out the vet link sites i and some others posted...like the merch vet site etc....

really wildly guessing here im a goat/dog etc person

maybe try feeding real people food (real fish/chicken etc)

i have to admit, for my poor male boxer, that seemed the only thing to help out when his liver acts up... eating real food not pellets or canned stuff (very expensive though)with the high percents of fat/addtitives/salts/other junk

funnily enough, male alpacas and male sheep get the same thing... and they DO have to get lower protein pellets (sheep pellets for males only!like 12% whereas females and babies get 18% protein)... the ammonia name clicked now in my brain.... try googleing : low protein foods + cats

[bina]

got some info:

What does it mean when a food is “low in ash” or “low in magnesium”?

In the interest of reducing urinary problems in cats, we have been making cat food with a low overall mineral (or ash) content for a long time. We know now that magnesium is the mineral to watch if we want to prevent struvites from forming in a cat's urinary system. The answer lies in giving your pet cat food that is low in magnesium. Please note that urinary pH is another factor to take into account when seeking to avoid urinary problems in cats.

http://www.feline-nutrition.com/urinarytract.htm -- thought this was inteeresting....

there are lots of sites: also try: BARF (bones and raw food diets) for cats ... i think they are a bit crazy but as i said, for my male it helped him thru a bad period (now gaining wieght again and not throwing up etc... using vet guidance of course)

some place ssuggested putting ascorbic acid (vitamin c) in food also?>..

good luck

[BambinA]

some place ssuggested putting ascorbic acid (vitamin c) in food also?>..

for acidify the urine

[Rimmer]

Thanks guys, some interesteting comments and usefull links.

The food that I am giving that dissolves calcium oxalate and struvites is

Royal Canin Urinary SO. the web page is at:

http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/SO30.html

But having said all that I need to know

1. If I should be giving this food to the exclusion of any other or will it work just as well mixed with other food?

2. Is it dangerous to the cat to continue with this type of food in view of the chronic and re occuring condition?

And should I switch to Hills SD once the problem goes away?

That's it really, Just these two things. Because the more one reads about this problem the more confusing it becomes and the more one realises that no one fully understands it.

Interesting to note from one of the links that Burmese cats suffer this problem more than ordianry cats. Wonder if that goes for Siamese as well?

[Scott]

Best of luck. My cat had a similar problem to yours and it has been nearly a year of constant battling. I managed to find a good vet (here in BKK), she eventually sent us to Kasesart University to a specialist. (The purpose was to find out of the vet clinic was providing the right treatment--they were). The cat will be on the rowaflex (spelling?), probably very long term, it's been on it for nearly a year. It's also on 2 mg of diazapam which apparently helps relax the bladder and urinary tract so it can urinate.

When the cat was really really sick, he was in the hospital for 2 weeks at a time for the better part of 6 months. Home for a few days to a week and then back. The kidneys also were failing (the cat had to be on renal food only--nothing else with it)--this was apparently a very serious problem. Eventually, they decided they were going to do a surgery that was like a sex change--re-routing the urinary canal. As they were preparing to do the surgery, the cat urinated on the vet!! so they decided they would wait.

The cat has been healthy for about 6 months now. He gets his 2 medications each day (the diazapam makes him sleep really well at night, but he's gotten quite fat). His kidney function is normal and he is now on a steady diet of Science Diet only. Because he gets the medication for his bladder, he doesn't need the Urinary.

If you are giving him a special diet for Urinary, then that is all he should get. You may want to get a kidney function test done on him as well.

When the condition improves, get him off all the other foods and put him on Science Diet. I have 3 cats and basically has helped a lot.

Again, best of luck. It's so difficult to see a cat in pain.

[Rimmer]

Best of luck. My cat had a similar problem to yours and it has been nearly a year of constant battling. I managed to find a good vet (here in BKK), she eventually sent us to Kasesart University to a specialist.

SNIP

If you are giving him a special diet for Urinary, then that is all he should get. You may want to get a kidney function test done on him as well.

SNIP

That's what I wanted to know

Thanks Scott, very usefull post. I have copied into notepad for future reference.

Sounds like you had a very close call with your cat, male right? This problem can kill males in 2 days if not treated, Our other cat a handsome male called 'Snowball' had the problem and my GF picked it up with hours, the vet put a drain on him and gave him a large shot of antibiotic, he then ran around the house for three months dripping blood and urine everywhere but is fine now. I feed him on Hills SD and give them both water by syringe 4 times a day, this flushes out anything that might form inside. Interesting to note that your cat is on Rowatinex and will be for a long time, I tink I may start her back on it again because although the obstruction has cleared up I think the bladder may still be infected and causing her to keep wanting to pp. (Comments please on this action)

She has had a kidney test and it's OK also blood tests and every other test in the book, basicaly she is healthy except for this chronic cystitis.

Anyway a very usefull post and cat owners should take note.

I put some pics of them both up at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/banjopicker/sets/1811501/

That should take you straight there with having to look at all my other rubbush.

Thanks again guys most helpfull

[chiangmaibruce]

My cat has just come home after his third bout of FLUTD (with more than a year in between each bout). He is a desexed male, and each time he has had to have a catheter inserted for a few days. Since his 2nd bout he has been fed nothing but Hills C/D (and for a while, Royal Canin Urinary) and has always had access to fresh water. So after forking out for the special vet food am very disappointed and concerned this has happened again.

On testing his urine was found to be more alkaline than the top end of the range 'promised' in the Hill C/D info (so not sure why that is). The vet prescribed acidifying tablets (and anti-biotics) even though the detailed Hills provided to vets says not to use these in conjunction with the C/D pellets.

Interesting to read these earlier posts (and also current research on the net, for e.g. catinfo.org) and see how consensus has changed about causes and treatment for this medical problem. Now they seem to be saying that the single main issue is ensuring adequate water intake, with some saying that feeding dry food is a no-no (even dietary special mixes). They are even saying that feeding these special dry diets esp. for eg. Hills S/D for extended periods can cause other health issues. So quite a few folks are saying that fresh meat is the way to go (esp. chicken/turkey/rabbit), or failing that good quality tinned food (without grains, vegetables, fillers, etc).

Stress is also a significant factor, with diet factors like protein now seen as less significant.

So I have been looking at canned cat food in supermarkets and the range here is more limited than in Oz. They only seem to have various fish varieties and most places only have Whiskas or Friskies.

Has anyone else given up on the special dry food and gone back to fresh or tinned? How did the cat accept it? What brands did you use? Any more illness?

[Rimmer]

My cat has just come home after his third bout of FLUTD (with more than a year in between each bout). He is a desexed male, and each time he has had to have a catheter inserted for a few days. Since his 2nd bout he has been fed nothing but Hills C/D (and for a while, Royal Canin Urinary) and has always had access to fresh water. So after forking out for the special vet food am very disappointed and concerned this has happened again.

On testing his urine was found to be more alkaline than the top end of the range 'promised' in the Hill C/D info (so not sure why that is). The vet prescribed acidifying tablets (and anti-biotics) even though the detailed Hills provided to vets says not to use these in conjunction with the C/D pellets.

Interesting to read these earlier posts (and also current research on the net, for e.g. catinfo.org) and see how consensus has changed about causes and treatment for this medical problem. Now they seem to be saying that the single main issue is ensuring adequate water intake, with some saying that feeding dry food is a no-no (even dietary special mixes). They are even saying that feeding these special dry diets esp. for eg. Hills S/D for extended periods can cause other health issues. So quite a few folks are saying that fresh meat is the way to go (esp. chicken/turkey/rabbit), or failing that good quality tinned food (without grains, vegetables, fillers, etc).

Stress is also a significant factor, with diet factors like protein now seen as less significant.

So I have been looking at canned cat food in supermarkets and the range here is more limited than in Oz. They only seem to have various fish varieties and most places only have Whiskas or Friskies.

Has anyone else given up on the special dry food and gone back to fresh or tinned? How did the cat accept it? What brands did you use? Any more illness?

After five years of trying these over priced products like you I have come to the conclusion that all those fancy special cat foods simply do not do the job for which they claim, they should be banned along with snake oil and ponzi schemes.

Feed your cats a little cooked chicken for protein, a little canned fish such as whiskas and a little dry cat food biscuits.

Before meals give them 500 ml of water which washes straight through them and washes impurities straight through. After food give them another 500ml. Been doing that for 5 years now after all the fancy foods failed miserably. works for us and our 9 cats.

They also have 500 ml of water each before we go to bed, bit of a chore but now the cats don't get sick.

Use good quality drinking water, not the high calcium stuff out of the tap and the little plastic syringes, the cat's soon get used to the ritual.

[chiangmaibruce]

Thanks for the update.

But please tell me you mean 50ml (500ml = half litre). Otherwise they would never leave their litter tray

Yes, I have one of the little syringes and will be using it for the time being - vet suggested they need about 600ml each day so I guess a bit of guesswork will be involved, ie. water in tinned food + water drunk from bowl + syringe to make up the shortfall

..... and just see how it goes

[Rimmer]

Thanks for the update.

But please tell me you mean 50ml (500ml = half litre). Otherwise they would never leave their litter tray

Yes, I have one of the little syringes and will be using it for the time being - vet suggested they need about 600ml each day so I guess a bit of guesswork will be involved, ie. water in tinned food + water drunk from bowl + syringe to make up the shortfall

..... and just see how it goes

You are right too many zero's.

When I started this thread three years ago I was stumbling around in the dark listening and reading everything I could find about the subject. I have tried all the so called anti struvite, anti calcium oxylate products and they all didn't work. Finally the vet said give them lots of water and from then we have not looked back.

A thought about food. Cats get a lot of water form their food and not so much from drinking right? Some of our cats eat boiled rice mixed with chicken and canned cat food with a few cat biscuits on top. These cats don't get the water treatment but are fine, I wonder if they are taking extra water from the boiled rice.

My Oriental cats have one small syringe of water before breakfast and one after breakfast.

One more small syringe at lunch time with a few biscuits.

One more before supper and one after supper. The girl cat gets two extra syringes before going to sleep at night.

How much is that? Seven by 50 ml right?

The cat sits down and I put a towel across the front like a bib then put the syringe in the back corner of the mouth, the cats lap the water somehow. If you push the plunger too hard they get too much and cough.

Once you have done that stand back or get a shower from them when they shake themselves.

I think one of the keys the the treatment is to give them water before food. Doing it this way the water goes straight into the bladder and flushes it out. Giving water after food does not have the same effect as it gets mixed into the food and is only slowly absorbed into the bladder.

The syringes get hard to operate after a while but they are cheap enough.

The Oriental boy cat loves the water drink because he has lots of pee to spray everything in site in the garden just he can upset the other cats..

Be interested to know how you get on with the treatment, it sure has worked for us.