NamKangMan Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well if the authorities in every other country in the world cant delete scams from existence I very much doubt the Thai authorities can. Next time you get a Taxi in New York or London or Coolangatta airport etc remind yourself of that. As I have stated before Peterocket, transport is an ESSENTIAL SERVICE. Transport is like health/medical, education, water, electricity, telecommunications, fuel, banking, post etc etc. These services NEED the protection from Government to stop exactly the problem we have here. Poorer countries than Thailand do not have the BS that is going on here in Phuket in regards to transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well if the authorities in every other country in the world cant delete scams from existence I very much doubt the Thai authorities can. Next time you get a Taxi in New York or London or Coolangatta airport etc remind yourself of that. As I have stated before Peterocket, transport is an ESSENTIAL SERVICE. Transport is like health/medical, education, water, electricity, telecommunications, fuel, banking, post etc etc. These services NEED the protection from Government to stop exactly the problem we have here. Poorer countries than Thailand do not have the BS that is going on here in Phuket in regards to transport. I could provide you links to lots of websites, forums and newspapers within seconds about taxi problems from Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. Vietnam (meters rigged and illegal taxis)...Cambodia (various licensed bandits at border crossings)...The problem is that you think these problems only exist in Phuket and the grass is greener everywhere else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well if the authorities in every other country in the world cant delete scams from existence I very much doubt the Thai authorities can. Next time you get a Taxi in New York or London or Coolangatta airport etc remind yourself of that. As I have stated before Peterocket, transport is an ESSENTIAL SERVICE. Transport is like health/medical, education, water, electricity, telecommunications, fuel, banking, post etc etc. These services NEED the protection from Government to stop exactly the problem we have here. Poorer countries than Thailand do not have the BS that is going on here in Phuket in regards to transport. I could provide you links to lots of websites, forums and newspapers within seconds about taxi problems from Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. Vietnam (meters rigged and illegal taxis)...Cambodia (various licensed bandits at border crossings)...The problem is that you think these problems only exist in Phuket and the grass is greener everywhere else. Sure, there are some dodgy operators in the places you mention, but here on Phuket, every single tuk-tuk driver is in on the scam. They have to be, to be part of the co-op. I've personally never had a problem with the various forms of transport in Laos, Vietnam or Cambodia - but I could pick any tuk-tuk on this island and be given an outrageous price to go even just a short journey, that's because of a thing called COLLUSION Peterrocket. In relation to transport, the grass is greener everywhere else than Phuket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidLucifer Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) I've personally never had a problem with the various forms of transport in Laos, Vietnam or Cambodia - but I could pick any tuk-tuk on this island and be given an outrageous price to go even just a short journey, that's because of a thing called COLLUSION Peterrocket. I agree about Cambodia, i've generally found prices reasonable, and Vietnam is still on my to-do list, but tuk-tuks prices in Vientiane are equally obscene. You clearly haven't been recently if you think otherwise. Edited July 4, 2012 by LucidLucifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) ... I can't comment on Phuket, as I have never been, nor do I intend to go any time soon, but tuk-tuks prices in Vientiane are equally obscene. You clearly haven't been recently if you think otherwise. I think the taxis in KL are great value, and even late at night coming home from the pub downtown, I can often find one who will use the meter. And the fixed fare kiosks at central station are not much more expensive than the meter, after midnight, SC EDIT: I suppose Penang might be a more relevant comparison, and I was not particularly happy with the prices quoted there. I reckon that they were about double the KL rates, or thereabouts. The intercity bus was great value, though! Edited July 4, 2012 by StreetCowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yes prices are more expensive here than other areas of Thailand and it is annoying. However this is the richest province, sees huge numbers of tourists and the prices are generally fixed. In Trafalgar Square the ice cream vans charge more than elsewhere but they have the price printed on the window. It's hardly a scam if I chose to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Yes prices are more expensive here than other areas of Thailand and it is annoying. However this is the richest province, sees huge numbers of tourists and the prices are generally fixed. In Trafalgar Square the ice cream vans charge more than elsewhere but they have the price printed on the window. It's hardly a scam if I chose to buy one. Peterocket, below is the definition of collusion. So you can understand, let's just say the ice cream van owner in Trafalgar Square had a meeting with all the other ice cream van owners in London and they all agreed to set the price of ice cream, across Greater London, at the Trafalgar Square price. Everyone who WANTED ice cream, as opposed to NEEDED ice cream, would be paying over the odds and supporting the criminal enterprise. Transport is an essential service. It is a NEED, not a WANT. It doesn't matter if the prices are displayed if collusion is taking place. It's still a criminal act. The scam comes about due to the criminality involved in the collusion. I understand your point that if you agree to 300 baht for 1 kilometer - than you have a verbal contract and it can not be a scam. My point is the 300 baht price for the product, the 1 kilomter journey, is the scam, due to collusion setting the price. Do you understand where I am coming from? COLLUSION: Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage.[citation needed] It is an agreement among firms to divide the market, set prices, or limit production.[1] It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties".[2] In legal terms, all acts affected by collusion are considered void.[3] Edited July 4, 2012 by NamKangMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yes prices are more expensive here than other areas of Thailand and it is annoying. However this is the richest province, sees huge numbers of tourists and the prices are generally fixed. In Trafalgar Square the ice cream vans charge more than elsewhere but they have the price printed on the window. It's hardly a scam if I chose to buy one. Peterocket, below is the definition of collusion. So you can understand, let's just say the ice cream van owner in Trafalgar Square had a meeting with all the other ice cream van owners in London and they all agreed to set the price of ice cream, across Greater London, at the Trafalgar Square price. Everyone who WANTED ice cream, as opposed to NEEDED ice cream, would be paying over the odds and supporting the criminal enterprise. Transport is an essential service. It is a NEED, not a WANT. It doesn't matter if the prices are displayed if collusion is taking place. It's still a criminal act. The scam comes about due to the criminality involved in the collusion. I understand your point that if you agree to 300 baht for 1 kilometer - than you have a verbal contract and it can not be a scam. My point is the 300 baht price for the product, the 1 kilomter journey, is the scam, due to collusion setting the price. Do you understand where I am coming from? COLLUSION: Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage.[citation needed] It is an agreement among firms to divide the market, set prices, or limit production.[1] It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties".[2] In legal terms, all acts affected by collusion are considered void.[3] At the airport I have the choice of the Airport bus, Car Hire, Bike Hire, Meter Taxi (if they have the meter on), Limousine and Van share all of which are clearly marked with the price. Pretty simple system and scam free as far as i am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Yes prices are more expensive here than other areas of Thailand and it is annoying. However this is the richest province, sees huge numbers of tourists and the prices are generally fixed. In Trafalgar Square the ice cream vans charge more than elsewhere but they have the price printed on the window. It's hardly a scam if I chose to buy one. Peterocket, below is the definition of collusion. So you can understand, let's just say the ice cream van owner in Trafalgar Square had a meeting with all the other ice cream van owners in London and they all agreed to set the price of ice cream, across Greater London, at the Trafalgar Square price. Everyone who WANTED ice cream, as opposed to NEEDED ice cream, would be paying over the odds and supporting the criminal enterprise. Transport is an essential service. It is a NEED, not a WANT. It doesn't matter if the prices are displayed if collusion is taking place. It's still a criminal act. The scam comes about due to the criminality involved in the collusion. I understand your point that if you agree to 300 baht for 1 kilometer - than you have a verbal contract and it can not be a scam. My point is the 300 baht price for the product, the 1 kilomter journey, is the scam, due to collusion setting the price. Do you understand where I am coming from? COLLUSION: Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage.[citation needed] It is an agreement among firms to divide the market, set prices, or limit production.[1] It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties".[2] In legal terms, all acts affected by collusion are considered void.[3] At the airport I have the choice of the Airport bus, Car Hire, Bike Hire, Meter Taxi (if they have the meter on), Limousine and Van share all of which are clearly marked with the price. Pretty simple system and scam free as far as i am concerned. Wow. That's great. Tell me about your options to go from say, Kata Beach to Patong Beach? Also, while you are at it, tell me about your options if you would like to have a few beers in Patong on a night out and have to get back to say, Kata or Rawai. Edited July 4, 2012 by NamKangMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Wow. That's great. Tell me about your options to go from say, Kata Beach to Patong Beach? Also, while you are at it, tell me about your options if you would like to have a few beers in Patong on a night out and have to get back to say, Kata or Rawai. I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Wow. That's great. Tell me about your options to go from say, Kata Beach to Patong Beach? Also, while you are at it, tell me about your options if you would like to have a few beers in Patong on a night out and have to get back to say, Kata or Rawai. I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. The thing is, the cost of those options make transport on this island the dearest in world and toirist just can't see the value in it and arguments ensue which result in assaults. Edited July 5, 2012 by NamKangMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. The thing is, the cost of those options make transport on this island the dearest in world and toirist just can't see the value in it and arguments ensue which result in assaults. What are you talking about "dearest in the world" ...do you mean compared to the minimum daily wage of Phuket? Do you think that tourists calculate the average daily wage when they arrive then work out if the taxi price is relative to that amount and then decide if there is possible collusion involved and then if they are being scammed and then decide that they wont come back to Phuket again because taxis are 100 baht cheaper in the farmlands of Cambodia? No they don't is the answer...they dont care... 3 mins of Google work for you... Don Muang to Sukhumvit.............taxi cost..................250 baht for 22km HKT to Patong..............................taxi cost .................600 baht for 34km JFK to Manhatten NY....................taxi cost 45 USD.....1470 baht for 24km (this is also a fixed price collusion scam) Heathrow to Camden in London...taxi cost 68 GBP.....3340 baht for 24km Coolangatta to Surfers..................taxi cost 132 AUD...4270 baht for 24km Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britpop Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. The thing is, the cost of those options make transport on this island the dearest in world and toirist just can't see the value in it and arguments ensue which result in assaults. What are you talking about "dearest in the world" ...do you mean compared to the minimum daily wage of Phuket? Do you think that tourists calculate the average daily wage when they arrive then work out if the taxi price is relative to that amount and then decide if there is possible collusion involved and then if they are being scammed and then decide that they wont come back to Phuket again because taxis are 100 baht cheaper in the farmlands of Cambodia? No they don't is the answer...they dont care... 3 mins of Google work for you... Don Muang to Sukhumvit.............taxi cost..................250 baht for 22km HKT to Patong..............................taxi cost .................600 baht for 34km JFK to Manhatten NY....................taxi cost 45 USD.....1470 baht for 24km (this is also a fixed price collusion scam) Heathrow to Camden in London...taxi cost 68 GBP.....3340 baht for 24km Coolangatta to Surfers..................taxi cost 132 AUD...4270 baht for 24km I'm loosing the will to live sometimes with the bickering between TV members, but Wow Peterocket i'm impressed, a master in verbal Jousting and retort, way to go.I think the word scamming is banded out a bit to much, is moneys really being taken illegally in most cases, i think they monopolize situations, but in most cases there is a cheap alternative, i can't say i get scammed here, i always pay what i think is value for money for items or services. Barclay's bank, now there a bunch of professional scammers, you would have thought the financial crises would have made them think twice, i want to know, which governing body was supposed to be overseeing stuff like that not happening anymore, greed breeds greed!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. The thing is, the cost of those options make transport on this island the dearest in world and toirist just can't see the value in it and arguments ensue which result in assaults. What are you talking about "dearest in the world" ...do you mean compared to the minimum daily wage of Phuket? Do you think that tourists calculate the average daily wage when they arrive then work out if the taxi price is relative to that amount and then decide if there is possible collusion involved and then if they are being scammed and then decide that they wont come back to Phuket again because taxis are 100 baht cheaper in the farmlands of Cambodia? No they don't is the answer...they dont care... 3 mins of Google work for you... Don Muang to Sukhumvit.............taxi cost..................250 baht for 22km HKT to Patong..............................taxi cost .................600 baht for 34km JFK to Manhatten NY....................taxi cost 45 USD.....1470 baht for 24km (this is also a fixed price collusion scam) Heathrow to Camden in London...taxi cost 68 GBP.....3340 baht for 24km Coolangatta to Surfers..................taxi cost 132 AUD...4270 baht for 24km Peterocket, you keep banging on about the Phuket Airport taxi prices. I don't have a problem with a 550 baht metered taxi from the airport to Patong. Most tourist don't have a problem with this either. The reason why there are soooooooooooo many assaults is because tourist see a problem with 600 baht for a 50 minute and 34 kilometer ride in an air conditioned taxi from the airport to say, Patong - but they can't understand a charge, from ALL tuk-tuk drivers, of 800 baht from Patong to Kata, at night, in a tuk-tuk with a bench seat and no air conditioning for 8.5 kilometers. The tourist's frustration builds as they now realise there is COLLUSION taking place, voices are raised, intimidation starts and then an assault occurs. The tourist compares what they got first up from airport, to what they are being charged to get home, to say Kata, 200 baht more for a quarter of the distance in an inferior vehicle. Even if no assault takes place, they know they have been ripped off, which doesn't make for a pleasant holiday experience. Do you think they see the value, or the rip off, in this scenario???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have the choice of a fixed price Tuk -Tuk or Taxi Same as most cities in the world that don't have 24hr mass transit systems. The thing is, the cost of those options make transport on this island the dearest in world and toirist just can't see the value in it and arguments ensue which result in assaults. What are you talking about "dearest in the world" ...do you mean compared to the minimum daily wage of Phuket? Do you think that tourists calculate the average daily wage when they arrive then work out if the taxi price is relative to that amount and then decide if there is possible collusion involved and then if they are being scammed and then decide that they wont come back to Phuket again because taxis are 100 baht cheaper in the farmlands of Cambodia? No they don't is the answer...they dont care... 3 mins of Google work for you... Don Muang to Sukhumvit.............taxi cost..................250 baht for 22km HKT to Patong..............................taxi cost .................600 baht for 34km JFK to Manhatten NY....................taxi cost 45 USD.....1470 baht for 24km (this is also a fixed price collusion scam) Heathrow to Camden in London...taxi cost 68 GBP.....3340 baht for 24km Coolangatta to Surfers..................taxi cost 132 AUD...4270 baht for 24km I'm loosing the will to live sometimes with the bickering between TV members, but Wow Peterocket i'm impressed, a master in verbal Jousting and retort, way to go.I think the word scamming is banded out a bit to much, is moneys really being taken illegally in most cases, i think they monopolize situations, but in most cases there is a cheap alternative, i can't say i get scammed here, i always pay what i think is value for money for items or services. Barclay's bank, now there a bunch of professional scammers, you would have thought the financial crises would have made them think twice, i want to know, which governing body was supposed to be overseeing stuff like that not happening anymore, greed breeds greed!!!! So, how would you get from Bangla Road to Rawai, after a night out, without driving/riding whilst intoxicated, and what woud you expect you would be "forced" to pay and, once parting with that money, do you think you would have been ripped off or paid a fair price???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenBravo Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What's that phrase people use when two posters spoil a thread by monopolizing it with their back and forth bickering? Oh yeah.......why don't you two get a room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) EDIT: Followed my own advice. Carry on, lads, as you were. SC Edited July 5, 2012 by StreetCowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What's that phrase people use when two posters spoil a thread by monopolizing it with their back and forth bickering? Oh yeah.......why don't you two get a room? The point is to make the facts available to visitors to this site who may be planning on coming to Phuket or Thailand. I'm not sure how many hits these threads get from outside Phuket but I expect some people would hope to get accurate information before they arrive. Anyhow my arguing is done...people can believe what they want. Real figures and facts can be found via google not by forum rantings. The title of the thread spoils the whole forum in my opinion and has been covered so many times that the mods should just delete them as duplicates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenBravo Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 the mods should just delete them as duplicates. That could be said of your posts on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What's that phrase people use when two posters spoil a thread by monopolizing it with their back and forth bickering? Oh yeah.......why don't you two get a room? The point is to make the facts available to visitors to this site who may be planning on coming to Phuket or Thailand. I'm not sure how many hits these threads get from outside Phuket but I expect some people would hope to get accurate information before they arrive. Anyhow my arguing is done...people can believe what they want. Real figures and facts can be found via google not by forum rantings. The title of the thread spoils the whole forum in my opinion and has been covered so many times that the mods should just delete them as duplicates. "The point is to make the facts available to visitors to this site who may be planning on coming to Phuket or Thailand. I'm not sure how many hits these threads get from outside Phuket but I expect some people would hope to get accurate information before they arrive." Totally agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What's that phrase people use when two posters spoil a thread by monopolizing it with their back and forth bickering? Oh yeah.......why don't you two get a room? I'm going to go and stand in the corner for an hour. :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 the mods should just delete them as duplicates. That could be said of your posts on this thread. Agreed, fine with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Croc Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Taxi $132 from Coolangatta to Gold Coast! Where do you get your figures from Rocket? It's more like $50-$60. http://www.gccabs.com.au/fare-information/ Alternatively there is a shuttle for under $20 or a scheduled bus service for under $10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterocket Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Taxi $132 from Coolangatta to Gold Coast! Where do you get your figures from Rocket? It's more like $50-$60. http://www.gccabs.co...re-information/ Alternatively there is a shuttle for under $20 or a scheduled bus service for under $10. Googled it....$60 it is then or 2000 baht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenBravo Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 ....and what is the minimum daily wage in Australia, and what is that fare as a percentage of that minimum daily wage? It helps to compare apples with apples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 ....and what is the minimum daily wage in Australia, and what is that fare as a percentage of that minimum daily wage? It helps to compare apples with apples Then you may also want to include gasoline prices, car depreciations, car prices, etc. in that comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 ....and what is the minimum daily wage in Australia, and what is that fare as a percentage of that minimum daily wage? It helps to compare apples with apples Then you may also want to include gasoline prices, car depreciations, car prices, etc. in that comparison. Why do the tuk-tuk fares double at night???????? In my country, you get a "shift allowance" but it is not double your hourly rate. This is another thing that leads to arguments and assaults here. Tourist pay 400 baht to get to Patong, then at night, after drinking, it's 800 baht to get home. Tourist know they are being ripped and then get angry. They don't know about the whole monopoly/mafia/collusion issue with transport here. It's like the tuk-tuk drivers expect tourist to know that the cartel exists and they are going to be ripped off and should just accept it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britpop Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 we have to take responsibly for our own actions, if had to get from patong to Rawai of coarse i'd want the best deal, it's no excuse to say i got scammed because i was legless. i've always negotiated a price i'm happy with, got there, paid, happy camper If a bar girl goes back with you and robs you, who's to blame, the bar girl cos she's a thief or you for indulging in a activity that the law in Thailand see as illegal. who'd get prosecuted the worst out of the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamKangMan Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 we have to take responsibly for our own actions, if had to get from patong to Rawai of coarse i'd want the best deal, it's no excuse to say i got scammed because i was legless. i've always negotiated a price i'm happy with, got there, paid, happy camper If a bar girl goes back with you and robs you, who's to blame, the bar girl cos she's a thief or you for indulging in a activity that the law in Thailand see as illegal. who'd get prosecuted the worst out of the two Ok, so, tell me about your last tuk-tuk negotiation? When was it and from where to where did you go and how much did you pay? What advice would you give to your backpacker friends (mentioned in another thread recently) about how to travel around Phuket and see all the beaches and sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsman69 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) we have to take responsibly for our own actions, if had to get from patong to Rawai of coarse i'd want the best deal, it's no excuse to say i got scammed because i was legless. i've always negotiated a price i'm happy with, got there, paid, happy camper If a bar girl goes back with you and robs you, who's to blame, the bar girl cos she's a thief or you for indulging in a activity that the law in Thailand see as illegal. who'd get prosecuted the worst out of the two Ok, so, tell me about your last tuk-tuk negotiation? When was it and from where to where did you go and how much did you pay? What advice would you give to your backpacker friends (mentioned in another thread recently) about how to travel around Phuket and see all the beaches and sights? Give him time to respond. I think he's stuck in waist deep mud in Patong http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5456925 Post # 77 and trying to find who's responsible............. Edited July 5, 2012 by sportsman69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now