sunshine51 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Here we go again...inconclusive local results...speculation from all points of the compass....gotta wait for the Canadian results now it seems...I'm tired and have had a beer or two so I'm gonna defer any further comment on this topic until I have had a good nights sleep....good night all hope you sleep well too. My assault will come sometime tomorrow. At least I didn't burn any steaks today... SS51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 One word: ARSENIC End of story. Everything else would pop easily. Arsenic easy to not find, especially if you do not want to find. Certainly no expert on the subject but wouldn't it take a considerable amount to have these kinds of fast results and isn't Arsenic something fairly easy to detect in blood, especially in high amounts? Again, no expert but have just read or seen things on TV about prolonged exposure and believe the symptoms are very similar except for how quickly these symptoms came on and killed. The one thing that "might" be of note though is their was a picture of a zip log bag of some of their items from the hotel and it showed numerous medicines in packs you typically get at a Thai pharmacy and it showed a number of the pills had been taken. So, it is possible they were feeling ill before they they got back to the hotel and possibly before they arrived in Phuket ... but still strange that it seems they went from walking and partying to being dead in what seems to be around 12 hours of getting back to the room. Okay, you initially sya they did not have enought to do test, now you apparently say they did have time to do test. You obviously don't have a clue except that you will state whatever supports your beliefs about Thai system in general. Again, what toxiciology tests takes 4 weeks? What test did the Thai authorities not have time to run? I would ask about testing process for determining aresenic, but I just posted that methodology. Do you have any facts or evidence that Thai authotires either conducted Marsh or Reinsch testing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts. Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html Edited June 28, 2012 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surangw Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 next on the list, accidentally cremate the remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2012 So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appear in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html So now you are implying that two happy girls, attending college and dental school, that performs charity work and has a great family wanted to kill themselves. Dude, you are one messed up soul. You must be the loneliest, most desprate old geiser on here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nam Plah Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts. Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html I believe this was written in French and the English translation may have changed the tone of the sentence additionally it is taken out of context from the rest of the letter. Not for a moment have I ever felt that this was a suicide pact. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 If the Portuguise guy stayed at the hotel, it should not be a problom to find him. All hotels have to register and report falangs online within 24 hours, with names, passport number, nationality, visa type +++ so it is just to go and get them if the hotel register by the rules.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whidbeyboy Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Maybe they'll solve it quicker if they offer a reward for answers, that they can then split up when they do thier job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) One word: ARSENIC End of story. Everything else would pop easily. Arsenic easy to not find, especially if you do not want to find. Certainly no expert on the subject but wouldn't it take a considerable amount to have these kinds of fast results and isn't Arsenic something fairly easy to detect in blood, especially in high amounts? Again, no expert but have just read or seen things on TV about prolonged exposure and believe the symptoms are very similar except for how quickly these symptoms came on and killed. The one thing that "might" be of note though is their was a picture of a zip log bag of some of their items from the hotel and it showed numerous medicines in packs you typically get at a Thai pharmacy and it showed a number of the pills had been taken. So, it is possible they were feeling ill before they they got back to the hotel and possibly before they arrived in Phuket ... but still strange that it seems they went from walking and partying to being dead in what seems to be around 12 hours of getting back to the room. Okay, you initially sya they did not have enought to do test, now you apparently say they did have time to do test. You obviously don't have a clue except that you will state whatever supports your beliefs about Thai system in general. Again, what toxiciology tests takes 4 weeks? What test did the Thai authorities not have time to run? I would ask about testing process for determining aresenic, but I just posted that methodology. Do you have any facts or evidence that Thai authotires either conducted Marsh or Reinsch testing? Apparently you have a problem reading or is this your way of avoiding my questions regarding Arsenic? I never said they didn't have time to do basic tests. Are you aware that the Canadian Coroner has explained publicly that it can take more than a month to get results back? Or why not just consider one of the highest profile deaths in the 21st Century. Michael Jackson died on Jun 25th. It wasn't until August 28th that the coroner was able to rule the cause of death a homicide.from the combination of drugs in his body. http://en.wikipedia....Michael_Jackson Or take Anna Nicole Smith. It took a seven-week investigation led by Broward County Medical Examiner and a Forensic Pathologist in combination with the Seminole police and several independent forensic pathologists and toxicologists, to determine she died from a combination of drugs. http://en.wikipedia....na_Nicole_Smith Do you need more examples and facts of time it can take to conclude an incredibly high profile autopsy in a first world nation to better gauge your assumptions about what to expect in a less developed nation with a regular tourist and no real suspicion of death unlike the two above where everyone was fairly sure drugs were the cause and even an idea of the drugs taken. Edited June 28, 2012 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nam Plah Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 "Police have said the women didn't appear to have been murdered and evidence suggests they may have been accidentally poisoned." http://www.660news.com/news/national/article/375120--bodies-of-dead-sisters-to-arrive-in-canada-from-thailand-on-thursday-relative How is it possible to have evidence of accidental poisoning that rules out homicide? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts. Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html I believe this was written in French and the English translation may have changed the tone of the sentence additionally it is taken out of context from the rest of the letter. Not for a moment have I ever felt that this was a suicide pact. IMHO I don't suspect suicide either but just happened to reread the article a minute ago and this time around the words just struck me as very odd. A translation issue would definitely explain this and being from Quebec that seems more than plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrun Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I have been informed by someone working in hotel management, for a major chain, that when they treat for bed bugs, they close the room for about 3 months, to avoid any chance of accidental poisoning of guests using the beds afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nam Plah Posted June 28, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2012 I have been informed by someone working in hotel management, for a major chain, that when they treat for bed bugs, they close the room for about 3 months, to avoid any chance of accidental poisoning of guests using the beds afterwards. Seems like a new mattress would be cheaper than shutting a room down for 90 days... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Sad for the family that the cause of death couldn't be wrapped up quickly but unless the cause was an obvious toxin, infection..., I am not sure what other conclusion people would expect at 2 weeks from only a preliminary autopsy in what is likely going to be some kind of deadly toxin case. 2 weeks isn't even enough time to get a full toxicology report back and based on this report, it would appear they "might" not even have them cut them open as there is no mention of what organs failed or stomach content. Typically there would be some announcement of cause of death such as dehydration or a particular organ failure with unknown reasons for the failure. Hopefully in about a month the Canadian team who has performed a full autopsy will have determined the initial cause of death and they might even announce the resulting reason (dehydration, heart failure...) for death before then. Again, just sad the family has to wait but am sure the coroner's office in Canada had prepared them that this will likely take some time to get any definitive answers. Your other post denies saying this, but paragraph 2, sentence 1 says 2 weeks not enough time to get toxicology report back. You then say down toward the end that it takes a month to get toxicology report back. So, my questionsthat you still have answered is: What toxicology report takes 4 weeks? What toxicology test did they not have time to conduct in two weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appear in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html So now you are implying that two happy girls, attending college and dental school, that performs charity work and has a great family wanted to kill themselves. Dude, you are one messed up soul. You must be the loneliest, most desprate old geiser on here. You might want to consider your deduction skills as you are batting .000. I didn't imply anything except these words seem odd IF reported properly and IF not translated and IF they were not out of context which I made clear could be the case but if that is the way your mind works so be it. By the way, I am actually fairly young and very happy with a great family here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 One word: ARSENIC End of story. Everything else would pop easily. Arsenic easy to not find, especially if you do not want to find. Certainly no expert on the subject but wouldn't it take a considerable amount to have these kinds of fast results and isn't Arsenic something fairly easy to detect in blood, especially in high amounts? Again, no expert but have just read or seen things on TV about prolonged exposure and believe the symptoms are very similar except for how quickly these symptoms came on and killed. The one thing that "might" be of note though is their was a picture of a zip log bag of some of their items from the hotel and it showed numerous medicines in packs you typically get at a Thai pharmacy and it showed a number of the pills had been taken. So, it is possible they were feeling ill before they they got back to the hotel and possibly before they arrived in Phuket ... but still strange that it seems they went from walking and partying to being dead in what seems to be around 12 hours of getting back to the room. Okay, you initially sya they did not have enought to do test, now you apparently say they did have time to do test. You obviously don't have a clue except that you will state whatever supports your beliefs about Thai system in general. Again, what toxiciology tests takes 4 weeks? What test did the Thai authorities not have time to run? I would ask about testing process for determining aresenic, but I just posted that methodology. Do you have any facts or evidence that Thai authotires either conducted Marsh or Reinsch testing? Apparently you have a problem reading or is this your way of avoiding my questions regarding Arsenic? I never said they didn't have time to do basic tests. Are you aware that the Canadian Coroner has explained publicly that it can take more than a month to get results back? Or why not just consider one of the highest profile deaths in the 21st Century. Michael Jackson died on Jun 25th. It wasn't until August 28th that the coroner was able to rule the cause of death a homicide.from the combination of drugs in his body. http://en.wikipedia....Michael_Jackson Or take Anna Nicole Smith. It took a seven-week investigation led by Broward County Medical Examiner and a Forensic Pathologist in combination with the Seminole police and several independent forensic pathologists and toxicologists, to determine she died from a combination of drugs. http://en.wikipedia....na_Nicole_Smith Do you need more examples and facts of time it can take to conclude an incredibly high profile autopsy in a first world nation to better gauge your assumptions about what to expect in a less developed nation with a regular tourist and no real suspicion of death unlike the two above where everyone was fairly sure drugs were the cause and even an idea of the drugs taken. Oh Nisa, you are so deceptive. Right above here I quoted your post saying that 2 weeks not enough and need 4 weeks for toxicology reports. Citing deaths of most famous people in world is just plain silly. Those got drug out and I am sure there was gag orders by DA until they decided what to do. But, even in those cases they knew what substances were in body with days. So you still havenot answers the questions: What toxicology test takes 4 weeks to run per your post on page 2? What toxicology tests did Thai authorities nit have time to run in 2 weeks per your post on page 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silent Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 All this "other" stuff is now probably too late. I've seen how police treat an investigation scene - about 50 people just trap all over it.....including TV crew and members of the public. ++All being professional sleuths I wonder at the possibility of it being better just to say results are inconclusive than draw a definitive, when it's known that another agency with maybe far more resources is also investigating. That kind of sounds like an excellent way of losing face all over the world and far worse than saying results are inconclusive, (maybe as of yet). Can't be, Thailand knows nothing about risk analysis or management and care too much about public opinion on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Sad for the family that the cause of death couldn't be wrapped up quickly but unless the cause was an obvious toxin, infection..., I am not sure what other conclusion people would expect at 2 weeks from only a preliminary autopsy in what is likely going to be some kind of deadly toxin case. 2 weeks isn't even enough time to get a full toxicology report back and based on this report, it would appear they "might" not even have them cut them open as there is no mention of what organs failed or stomach content. Typically there would be some announcement of cause of death such as dehydration or a particular organ failure with unknown reasons for the failure. Hopefully in about a month the Canadian team who has performed a full autopsy will have determined the initial cause of death and they might even announce the resulting reason (dehydration, heart failure...) for death before then. Again, just sad the family has to wait but am sure the coroner's office in Canada had prepared them that this will likely take some time to get any definitive answers. Your other post denies saying this, but paragraph 2, sentence 1 says 2 weeks not enough time to get toxicology report back. No, I said "full toxicology report back" What is so hard for you to grasp. According the the Canadian Coroner's office ... "The completion of autopsies can take hours or days, and the publication of the official report weeks or months," http://www.winnipegf...ampaign=/canada Realize, I simply asked if you knew if Arsenic was an easy substance to detect because you seemed sure this was the cause of death and if it wasn't an easy thing to detect and took time then it is still a possibility they haven't got results back on this yet. And please stop firing idiotic questions off to me (while ignoring my question) which I never in anyway shape or form claimed to have the answers. Edited June 28, 2012 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PingManDan Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Oh dear. Not again. Yes again, no known cause of death!!!!!! The travel ads have to stop saying "Amazing Thailand" because this and a few other strange unsolved death cases, prove this beyond any shadow of reasoning now . Unless someone is making a profit for doing their work, cops, forensic investigators, whatever form of supposed authority you want to call them, there is always this same scenario, unsolved????? Yes indeed "Amazing Thailand !!!!!" to say the least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So hard to believe what is / the context of what written in the press but I find these comments a bit odd that the dad says his daughter wrote in the last letter to him ... "First off, we take a moment to thank you for having brought us into this world in Canada, for giving us good values, for giving us the passion to travel, and especially to just for having been our parents. " Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appear in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html So now you are implying that two happy girls, attending college and dental school, that performs charity work and has a great family wanted to kill themselves. Dude, you are one messed up soul. You must be the loneliest, most desprate old geiser on here. You might want to consider your deduction skills as you are batting .000. I didn't imply anything except these words seem odd IF reported properly and IF not translated and IF they were not out of context which I made clear could be the case but if that is the way your mind works so be it. By the way, I am actually fairly young and very happy with a great family here. Oh okay, so your implying that they were just being clairvoyant and knew they were about to die and not that they committed suicide. Yeah, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstipek Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 ^ as the bodies were embalmed before leaving Thailand, I wouldn't hope for too much. We can only hope the Thai police labs are testing for a lot of different compounds. And then that we will get full disclosure of results. [snicker] That Thai forensics team did not take sample until 5 days after discovery , possibly 7 days after death does not bode well, either. At least that blatant mis information of food poisoning isn't going to hold water, anymore. I hope. Re the Portuguese guy, I have read a post that about a media " report" re a note from him being in the room proves something or,.. 'nother about his inocence or involvement but it seems the cops haven't considered it could have been slipped under the door and the the maid or more likely untrained cops first on the scene picked it up off the floor and set it on a table. regardless, I don't think dope-date- rapers escort victims home and then don't rape them. Or had he (or they?) The police quoted claims that no violence occured therefore no foul play is also suspect . Wow... I don't think Canadian Team is going to find anything either. Once Thailand Embalmed the bodies... all fluids drained and replaced with a foreign substance they screwed everyone! Believe me they knew before they embalmed that the family had requested an autopsy in Canada. I think somebody in the forensics team has some explaining to do... FAST! Bodies should have been frozen and shipped on ice, purely a fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrysteve Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Whether or not it was Arsenic poisoning or some other type of poisoning, there is arsenic naturally found in minute quantities/ amounts of some foods. Shell fish and some fish mutually exclusive of shell fishs seem to have the highest amounts of arsenic. Some hazardous waste sites too, and particularly if hazardous waste is not propertly disposed of can seep into the water supply. It would be informative to see what the Canadians find, and match their results with what the Thai authorities to find out if their are any inconsistencies. However, it is unlikely that the Canadian officials will publish their findings for all to see and equally unlikely the Thai authories will do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Sad for the family that the cause of death couldn't be wrapped up quickly but unless the cause was an obvious toxin, infection..., I am not sure what other conclusion people would expect at 2 weeks from only a preliminary autopsy in what is likely going to be some kind of deadly toxin case. 2 weeks isn't even enough time to get a full toxicology report back and based on this report, it would appear they "might" not even have them cut them open as there is no mention of what organs failed or stomach content. Typically there would be some announcement of cause of death such as dehydration or a particular organ failure with unknown reasons for the failure. Hopefully in about a month the Canadian team who has performed a full autopsy will have determined the initial cause of death and they might even announce the resulting reason (dehydration, heart failure...) for death before then. Again, just sad the family has to wait but am sure the coroner's office in Canada had prepared them that this will likely take some time to get any definitive answers. Your other post denies saying this, but paragraph 2, sentence 1 says 2 weeks not enough time to get toxicology report back. No, I said "full toxicology report back" What is so hard for you to grasp. According the the Canadian Coroner's office ... "The completion of autopsies can take hours or days, and the publication of the official report weeks or months," http://www.winnipegf...ampaign=/canada Realize, I simply asked if you knew if Arsenic was an easy substance to detect because you seemed sure this was the cause of death and if it wasn't an easy thing to detect and took time then it is still a possibility they haven't got results back on this yet. And please stop firing idiotic questions off to me (while ignoring my question) which I never in anyway shape or form claimed to have the answers. So then you do agree that two weeks was sufficient time for Thai authorities to get back a full toxicology report? . . . Assuming no back up at lab, Oh, I answered the arsenic questions and even stated the protocol for detection. You do understand that aresenic us easy to detect in water, but might not be so easy to detect in a dead human body especially if neither Marsh nor Reinsch test run. So did they run Marsh or Reinsch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) i understand they were talking about the results from the "police forensics hospital"`? (which is close to the blood terror center, btw) and it sounds, as if they have only tested for known drugs... if he is commenting on a full autopsy, without finding any drugs, then they havent even found ibuprofen, or what? i think, there is another autopsy from this thai doctor, which the parents requested... plus then the canadian one... and i also believe, that this doctor took SAMPLES from the bodies, BEFORE they were embalmbed, which were sent to the canadian coroner. Edited June 28, 2012 by dingdang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acemaker Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 what a load of crap Have you been studying Shakespeare long ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lensta Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Maj Gen Boontawee said that police realized that, “the Portuguese friend of the two sisters who stayed at the same hotel and carried them into their room is a significant witness who might have information that could reveal what caused their deaths.” Now they have him carrying both women into the room? Must be a strong bloke. I thought the CCTV footage showed they walked together. yes, this was my understanding also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallGuyJohninBKK Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think readers here would do well to ask themselves this question: In your home country, in cases where the bodies in fatalities are recovered promptly and in reasonably good condition, how often do you recall reading news accounts where the cause of death could never be determined, even months after the fact??? In the U.S., I would say that is a very rare circumstance... Generally speaking, the coroners and authorities are usually able to determine the causes of death most of the time. But here, you've got Phi Phi lately, the Chiang Mai hotel deaths, the Laleena Guesthouse and who knows how many other similar cases where the end results always seem to be the same.... the local authorities profess to not know and/or the results are "inconclusive." Seems that things operate a bit differently here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaifever Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Wondering why we've heard so little about the two sister's girlfriend who landed herself in the hospital for three days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEL1 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 “I want to explain to the public that we have already done our best at every step of the investigation, but we still have yet to determine the cause of the death,” he said. ------------ I seem to remember these exact words from the chief of police in London in 1888, about Jack the Ripper. That's how far ahead the Thai police are developing. ----------- "Maj Gen Boontawee did not elaborate on what further steps police had taken in order to contact the man." steps??? .... The police fight each other, never mind taking steps together. However, they do take the same steps in one direction, and those being: corruption and rip offs, hiding evidence, not being qualified to do their jobs and generally getting drunk and having no responisibilities for the upkeep of the law.... not that there is one, apart from free to take from all ! -mel. "Among the other experts investigating the deaths is Dr Jakkarat Pittayawong-aka-ripper, a specialist from the Bureau of Epidemiology, Department of Disease Control. Dr Jakkarat-the ripper arrived with his team on Phi Phi Island on June 20 to collect evidence needed to discern the exact cause of the sisters’ deaths. However, he said that only after his team had compared their findings against the postmortem examination results would they submit a report to the Krabi Provincial Office and Krabi Public Health Office." What he actually means is that he is shit scared to contradict the Thai police, in case he disappears, but must also wait for the Canadian autopsy to keep some kind of ripping credit. ---------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEL1 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Wondering why we've heard so little about the two sister's girlfriend who landed herself in the hospital for three days. She got nausea from rat poisoning. -mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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