Phi Phi Poisonings: Autopsy Results On Canadian Sisters ‘Inconclusive’

[katana]

...As to Phi Phi I would be focusing on the blue fingernails displayed on the victims, and sending samples of these, and hair, off for testing in Atlanta. These should not be affected by embarming....

The Thai language news sources all say that the finger and toenails were สีเขียวคล้ำ which I think translates as dark green. So the reports in the English press of them being blue may be a mistranslation.

[Chopperboy]

the Chiangmai case is alittle different in that the kiwi girls at Chiangmai never met anyone, no strangers, and never ate the same food..two of them shared a smoothy, and drunk bottled hotel water, and thats the only cross over..they arrived in the afternoon, had a walk arund, dipped their toes in the pool. ate at the market, went back to there room, showered and went to bed..The likihood of the Thai lady who died in the room next door, of having a smoothy from the same shop on the same evening is not impossible, but the chances of it happening are very low..

Maaka - thanks for posting.

I have always thought that the bottled drinking water in the Chiangmai hotel was the only common component, even the swimmer my have drunk some bottled water after swimming.

[Ferangled]

Given the circumstantial evidence, cholopryofos does seem a likely cause in the case of the Chiang Mai deaths, although fairly large amounts are usually required to be fatal, ....

The only thing pointing to chlorpyrifos was "doctor" McDowall. He went to the media with his "theory" and the news team ran with it. From that point on, even though New Zealand's top toxicologist said that fatal chlorpyrifos exposure was all but impossible, all other causes were all but ignored.

In the end, the Thai report, which is not the same thing as "the international findings", told everyone what they wanted to hear, without directly blaming anyone. As far as I know, the actual "international findings" were never released.

BTW, "doctor" McDowall is a PhD in engineering, not an MD, toxicologist, or pathologist.

Well said!. Actually he is an "eco warrior" waste dump disposal guy.

If a human were to ingest 0.25Kg of chlorpyrifos over a 2 year period they wouldn't get sick or get cancer.

Its dangerous effects are all due to long term exposure of workers using it or someone deliberately ingesting a high dose at one time.

http://pmep.cce.corn...yrifos-ext.html

In humans, chlorpyrifos and its principal metabolites are eliminated relatively rapidly following a single dose. It is readily absorbed into the bloodstream through the gastrointestinal tract if it is ingested, through the lungs if it is inhaled, or through the skin if there is dermal exposure.

After a single oral dose, its half-life in the blood appears to be about one day. Chlorpyrifos was found in its original form in the blood, brain and liver of a 61-year old man who lived only one day after accidentally eating this material.

So ingesting enough to kill quickly in a single dose is possible.

As far as getting cancer, either through a single or prolonged dosage, the report also states it's not carcinogenic although what relevance that has to this case I don't know...

I'm not suggesting this is the cause, just replying with relevant info to the above post.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Ferangled

[Chopperboy]

If a human were to ingest 0.25Kg of chlorpyrifos over a 2 year period they wouldn't get sick or get cancer.

Its dangerous effects are all due to long term exposure of workers using it or someone deliberately ingesting a high dose at one time.

http://pmep.cce.corn...yrifos-ext.html

In humans, chlorpyrifos and its principal metabolites are eliminated relatively rapidly following a single dose. It is readily absorbed into the bloodstream through the gastrointestinal tract if it is ingested, through the lungs if it is inhaled, or through the skin if there is dermal exposure.

After a single oral dose, its half-life in the blood appears to be about one day. Chlorpyrifos was found in its original form in the blood, brain and liver of a 61-year old man who lived only one day after accidentally eating this material.

So ingesting enough to kill quickly in a single dose is possible.

As far as getting cancer, either through a single or prolonged dosage, the report also states it's not carcinogenic although what relevance that has to this case I don't know...

I'm not suggesting this is the cause, just replying with relevant info to the above post.

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

[Ferangled]

If a human were to ingest 0.25Kg of chlorpyrifos over a 2 year period they wouldn't get sick or get cancer.

Its dangerous effects are all due to long term exposure of workers using it or someone deliberately ingesting a high dose at one time.

http://pmep.cce.corn...yrifos-ext.html

In humans, chlorpyrifos and its principal metabolites are eliminated relatively rapidly following a single dose. It is readily absorbed into the bloodstream through the gastrointestinal tract if it is ingested, through the lungs if it is inhaled, or through the skin if there is dermal exposure.

After a single oral dose, its half-life in the blood appears to be about one day. Chlorpyrifos was found in its original form in the blood, brain and liver of a 61-year old man who lived only one day after accidentally eating this material.

So ingesting enough to kill quickly in a single dose is possible.

As far as getting cancer, either through a single or prolonged dosage, the report also states it's not carcinogenic although what relevance that has to this case I don't know...

I'm not suggesting this is the cause, just replying with relevant info to the above post.

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

Well apparently that 61 year old man in the article ate it accidentally... not sure what he thought it was though, looks like the case is discussed in more detail in the book "Pesticides studied in man"...

What is apparent reading through the article, is that even the scientists don't seem to know the limitations of this substance...note the use of "may", "expected" etc They are very careful to not make any leading statements of fact.

Aquatic and general agricultural uses of chlorpyrifos may be extremely poisonous to wildlife and honeybees. Treated areas should not be used for grazing, nor should the chemical be used when bees are actively collecting pollen or nectar. Studies indicate that with continuous exposure over time, chlorpyrifos may accumulate to toxic levels in test animals.

While one study did not detect any negative effect to nontarget insects when chlorpyrifos was applied to rice fields at 0.01 to 0.02 kilogram per hectare (kg/ha), another study reported that practically all nontarget insects died after a similar application.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Ferangled

[Curt1591]

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

Exactly! The only cases of fatal chlorpyrifos poisoning, that I have been able to find, were from deliberate suicides.

[Ferangled]

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

Exactly! The only cases of fatal chlorpyrifos poisoning, that I have been able to find, were from deliberate suicides.

Please see above. That's the first case of death that I've come across in my somewhat limited research of the subject over the last few hours...

The organophosphate insecticides are cholinesterase inhibitors which may be absorbed through all routes of exposure. When toxic amounts are inhaled, the first effects are usually respiratory and may include bloody or runny nose, coughing, chest discomfort, difficult or short breath, and wheezing due to constriction or excess fluid in the bronchial tubes. Skin contact with organophosphates may cause localized sweating and involuntary muscle contractions. Eye contact may cause pain, bleeding, tears, pupil constriction, and blurred vision. Following exposure by any route, other systemic effects may begin within a few minutes or be delayed for up to 12 hours. These may include pallor, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, headache, dizziness, eye pain, blurred vision, constriction or dilation of the eye pupils, tears, salivation, sweating, and confusion. Severe poisoning will affect the central nervous system, producing incoordination, slurred speech, loss of reflexes, weakness, fatigue, involuntary muscle contractions, twitching, tremors of the tongue or eyelids, and eventually paralysis of the body extremities and the respiratory muscles. In severe cases there may also be involuntary defecation or urination, psychosis, irregular heart beats, unconsciousness, convulsions and coma. Death may be caused by respiratory failure or cardiac arrest.

Now I'm no Quincy but this seems like pretty nasty and potentially lethal stuff.

[Chopperboy]

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

Exactly! The only cases of fatal chlorpyrifos poisoning, that I have been able to find, were from deliberate suicides.

Please see above. That's the first case of death that I've come across in my somewhat limited research of the subject over the last few hours...

The organophosphate insecticides are cholinesterase inhibitors which may be absorbed through all routes of exposure. When toxic amounts are inhaled, the first effects are usually respiratory and may include bloody or runny nose, coughing, chest discomfort, difficult or short breath, and wheezing due to constriction or excess fluid in the bronchial tubes. Skin contact with organophosphates may cause localized sweating and involuntary muscle contractions. Eye contact may cause pain, bleeding, tears, pupil constriction, and blurred vision. Following exposure by any route, other systemic effects may begin within a few minutes or be delayed for up to 12 hours. These may include pallor, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, headache, dizziness, eye pain, blurred vision, constriction or dilation of the eye pupils, tears, salivation, sweating, and confusion. Severe poisoning will affect the central nervous system, producing incoordination, slurred speech, loss of reflexes, weakness, fatigue, involuntary muscle contractions, twitching, tremors of the tongue or eyelids, and eventually paralysis of the body extremities and the respiratory muscles. In severe cases there may also be involuntary defecation or urination, psychosis, irregular heart beats, unconsciousness, convulsions and coma. Death may be caused by respiratory failure or cardiac arrest.

Now I'm no Quincy but this seems like pretty nasty and potentially lethal stuff.

Did anyone say that the 7 people that died in the Down Town had been drinking pesticides? Because they would have needed to do that to get these symptoms. The guys spraying this stuff do it every day and don't die, its in a lot the fruit and veg in America and depending where you live it could be in up to 50% of peoples bodies.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chopperboy

[Curt1591]

The "above" doesn't say how much was ingested. But, since ... Chlorpyrifos was found in its original form in the blood, brain and liver ...", we can be pretty sure it wasn't "traces" of the stuff. And, once again, this man's death was not from inhalation.

JohnReeve, National Manager, toxicology and residues, for the New Zealand Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, came out right after the NZ Channel 3 chlorpyrifos caper and said that fatality by other than ingestion of a substantial quantity of chlorpyrifos, was all but impossible.

As far as "traces" of the substance being found at the hotel, "traces' of chlorpyrifos is found on apples, shipped to the US, from New Zealand!

The whole pesticide conclusion was simply telling everyone what they wanted to hear and a means to "kill the boogyman!" As much as everyone criticizes the Thai authorities for wanting to sweep this under the carpet, it surprises me that the same people want to jump on such a unlikely conclusion.

[Ferangled]

If someone consumed enough to kill themselves they would surely know about it!

Exactly! The only cases of fatal chlorpyrifos poisoning, that I have been able to find, were from deliberate suicides.

Please see above. That's the first case of death that I've come across in my somewhat limited research of the subject over the last few hours...

The organophosphate insecticides are cholinesterase inhibitors which may be absorbed through all routes of exposure. When toxic amounts are inhaled, the first effects are usually respiratory and may include bloody or runny nose, coughing, chest discomfort, difficult or short breath, and wheezing due to constriction or excess fluid in the bronchial tubes. Skin contact with organophosphates may cause localized sweating and involuntary muscle contractions. Eye contact may cause pain, bleeding, tears, pupil constriction, and blurred vision. Following exposure by any route, other systemic effects may begin within a few minutes or be delayed for up to 12 hours. These may include pallor, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, headache, dizziness, eye pain, blurred vision, constriction or dilation of the eye pupils, tears, salivation, sweating, and confusion. Severe poisoning will affect the central nervous system, producing incoordination, slurred speech, loss of reflexes, weakness, fatigue, involuntary muscle contractions, twitching, tremors of the tongue or eyelids, and eventually paralysis of the body extremities and the respiratory muscles. In severe cases there may also be involuntary defecation or urination, psychosis, irregular heart beats, unconsciousness, convulsions and coma. Death may be caused by respiratory failure or cardiac arrest.

Now I'm no Quincy but this seems like pretty nasty and potentially lethal stuff.

Did anyone say that the 7 people that died in the Down Town had been drinking pesticides? Because they would have needed to do that to get these symptoms. The guys spraying this stuff do it every day and don't die, its in a lot the fruit and veg in America and depending where you live it could be in up to 50% of peoples bodies.

Did they? I don't know, I certainly haven't. I think it's misleading to suggest that you'd have to drink pesticide to get those symptoms. From what I've read the most likely mode of exposure to chlorpyrifos is through the skin...

As for "the guys spraying this stuff do it everyday and don't die" I don't see how you can make that assertion given what I've been reading about the stuff...

All the studies I have read related to

mortality among pesticide applicators

have fairly inconclusive findings...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17450220

"Our findings of a possible association between chlorpyrifos use and external causes of death were based on small numbers. However, the findings may reflect a link between chlorpyrifos and depression or other neurobehavioral symptoms that deserves further evaluation."

What is clear is that whether ingested orally or inhaled or through contact with the skin, a high enough dosage can be lethal. In light of earlier posts regarding inaccuracy in preparation of chemical treatments, I thought this was quite relevant:

"Chlorpyrifos is normally supplied as a 23.5% or 50% liquid concentrate. The recommended concentration for direct-spray pin point application is 0.5% and for wide area application a 0.03 – 0.12% mix is recommended "

So what happens if it's not diluted and sprayed in concentrated form all over a hotel room prior to a guests arrival?

I'm not suggesting that this is the cause but I wouldn't dismiss it without evidence...

Edited July 2, 2012 by Ferangled

[Chopperboy]

"So what happens if it's not diluted and sprayed in concentrated form all over a hotel room prior to a guests arrival?

I'm not suggesting that this is the cause but I wouldn't dismiss it without evidence..."

The lethal concentration fifty, or LC50, is that concentration of a chemical in air or water that kills half of the experimental animals exposed to it for a set time period. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 200 mg/m3

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chopperboy

[Nisa]

"So what happens if it's not diluted and sprayed in concentrated form all over a hotel room prior to a guests arrival?

I'm not suggesting that this is the cause but I wouldn't dismiss it without evidence..."

The lethal concentration fifty, or LC50, is that concentration of a chemical in air or water that kills half of the experimental animals exposed to it for a set time period. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 200 mg/m3

I personally think the older couple may be a red herring in the cases.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/3_brothers_suffer_heart_attacks_at_same_time_1_1988732

http://news.oneindia.in/2008/04/10/simultaneous-funeral-of-aged-couple-1207814565.html

http://www.hutchnews.com/News/coupleeefm

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/01/beverly-hilton-deaths-elderly-couple-ruled-a-double-suicide.html

http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/indiana/couple-married-72-yrsdies-2-days-apart

[dingdang]

this document talks about "anitcholine..-poisoning" and mentions also "chlorphyto.." as the primary cause of poisoning...

http://www.asiatox.o... poisoning..pdf

and a lot of the autopsied had heart inflammation i understand...

Edited July 2, 2012 by dingdang

[Ferangled]

"So what happens if it's not diluted and sprayed in concentrated form all over a hotel room prior to a guests arrival?

I'm not suggesting that this is the cause but I wouldn't dismiss it without evidence..."

The lethal concentration fifty, or LC50, is that concentration of a chemical in air or water that kills half of the experimental animals exposed to it for a set time period. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 200 mg/m3

I personally think the older couple may be a red herring in the cases.

http://www.scotsman...._time_1_1988732

http://news.oneindia...1207814565.html

http://www.hutchnews...News/coupleeefm

http://www.thedailyb...le-suicide.html

http://www.wane.com/...es-2-days-apart

I was starting to follow your logic with the examples of coincidental multiple heart attacks but you lost me with the Beverly Hills double gunshot suicide...

[Methuselah]

As you will see in the sections on nicotinic and muscarinic effects of excessive cholinergic effects,cardiac effects are part and parcel of organophosphate poisoning.The bonding of organophosphates with acetylcholinesterase is particularly strong and durable,and the effect of excessive acetylcholne on heart muscle would result in severe cardiac failure,causing cardiac dilatation,as well as severe pulmonary oedema.

Apart from intensive life support,pralidoxime is the most common treatment.However one has to suspect and confirm the diagnosis before instituting treatment.

Edited July 2, 2012 by metisdead
: Bold font removed.

[Curt1591]

Where did I, or anyone else, imply that these people were not poisoned?

Personally, I simply don't buy the "overzealous sprayer" BS.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Curt1591

[dingdang]

"anticholinesterase poisoning" = "pesticide poisoning" (1st hit on google)

http://en.wikipedia....icide_poisoning

if they use so much pesticides in the room, where people sleep, what do they use on the crops?

...vegetabels and fruits?

Dr Pattapong Kessomboon, a member of the Thailand Pesticide Network, said the government was failing to stop the uncontrolled use of dangerous chemicals on vegetables in Thailand. (26-01-2011)

"We expect the EU to ban our vegetable exports soon," "We were warned about chemical-contaminated vegetables 26 times in 2009 and up to 55 times last year. But there has been no quick response from the state agencies concerned."

Edited July 2, 2012 by dingdang

[smedly]

guys - google merchants, we've already had pages and pages of drug/poison speculations on another thread <deleted> give it a rest

[mommysboy]

guys - google merchants, we've already had pages and pages of drug/poison speculations on another thread <deleted> give it a rest

Ah! natural causes then?

Or should we go back to the peanut allergies, alcohol crazed motrin binges, and homicidal puffer fish!

I don't know about anyone else but recent posts are very illuminating IMHO.

[annabel]

Given the circumstantial evidence, cholopryofos does seem a likely cause in the case of the Chiang Mai deaths, although fairly large amounts are usually required to be fatal, ....

The only thing pointing to chlorpyrifos was "doctor" McDowall. He went to the media with his "theory" and the news team ran with it. From that point on, even though New Zealand's top toxicologist said that fatal chlorpyrifos exposure was all but impossible, all other causes were all but ignored.

In the end, the Thai report, which is not the same thing as "the international findings", told everyone what they wanted to hear, without directly blaming anyone. As far as I know, the actual "international findings" were never released.

BTW, "doctor" McDowall is a PhD in engineering, not an MD, toxicologist, or pathologist.

Well said!. Actually he is an "eco warrior" waste dump disposal guy.

If a human were to ingest 0.25Kg of chlorpyrifos over a 2 year period they wouldn't get sick or get cancer.

Its dangerous effects are all due to long term exposure of workers using it or someone deliberately ingesting a high dose at one time.

http://pmep.cce.corn...yrifos-ext.html

In humans, chlorpyrifos and its principal metabolites are eliminated relatively rapidly following a single dose. It is readily absorbed into the bloodstream through the gastrointestinal tract if it is ingested, through the lungs if it is inhaled, or through the skin if there is dermal exposure.

After a single oral dose, its half-life in the blood appears to be about one day. Chlorpyrifos was found in its original form in the blood, brain and liver of a 61-year old man who lived only one day after accidentally eating this material.

So ingesting enough to kill quickly in a single dose is possible.

As far as getting cancer, either through a single or prolonged dosage, the report also states it's not carcinogenic although what relevance that has to this case I don't know...

I'm not suggesting this is the cause, just replying with relevant info to the above post.

So ingesting enough to kill quickly in a single dose is possible. BUT... how much is enough ???? no mentions here as to quantities...???

[mommysboy]

Ok, lets use a bit logic here. I am getting tired of hearing about chlorpyrifos as a causative factor in these deaths.

IF it was used at the hotel, it would be used in ALL the rooms, not just one room. And IF it could kill you, then there would be a huge pile of bodies the next day from all the other guests that died from it. So this idea simply does not stand up to reason.

Nothing much stands up to reason in Thailand.

Yes your posting is coherent and cogent, and I dare say if it was western hotel it would be carried out floor by floor by experts, but in Thailand anything goes and it could just be the odd room here and there done by an unofficial outfit.

A lot of posts make the same error, don't underestimate the incompetence and greed (maybe just desperation) of these people.

[Nisa]

Ok, lets use a bit logic here. I am getting tired of hearing about chlorpyrifos as a causative factor in these deaths.

IF it was used at the hotel, it would be used in ALL the rooms, not just one room. And IF it could kill you, then there would be a huge pile of bodies the next day from all the other guests that died from it. So this idea simply does not stand up to reason.

While there is logic in your thoughts, there is also logic in it being possible only this room was treated for a particular problem the other rooms didn't have or have as severely. However, I doubt workers were treating the room with something where the people who treated it would not also be infected.

I don't have a rational suspicion as to what exactly happened but would suspect it was some sort of accidental poisoning be it through something like the above or something they ingested. However, I am similar to you in suspecting this room wouldn't be the only one treated and also believing they ate something off a menu others didn't eat.

The big question in my mind is why they didn't or were unable to seek help.

Bottom line is details of investigations like this are not made public but would be interesting to know when the last person(s) checked out of that room and if anybody has or is trying to track them down.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Nisa

[mommysboy]

Nisa, as explained before, strong poison can cause paralysis, or at least severe disablement. It's a terrible thought.

[canuckamuck]

I can't remember if the girls spent their first night in the hotel before they said they would stay another. If they made it through one night in the room, it is unlikely that the problem was with the room.

That being said however, we do not know hotel's procedure for spraying the rooms. So it is possible that this room was sprayed at a different time than others (maybe it was occupied before, maybe it was missed by the contractor and hotel staff was told to do it themselves) and this specific time someone really messed up the spraying or the mixing of the chemicals (eg. 1:5 instead of 1:50). That would eliminate the argument of why weren't other rooms affected.

It seems to me that if pesticide application is the problem, then it is likely that it was a non typical application of spray because obviously if they sprayed like that all the time there would be other casualties.

We also do not know how much chlorpyrifos is possible to enter the body through skin contact (sheets pillow) and through simultaneous inhalation. I imagine if you are damp from the shower it would increase the amount of chemical absorption. And laying in those sheets for hours would also multiply your exposure.

Do we know if a sustained exposure to a high concentration of this chemical will cause organ failure? No we don't, but organ failure would explain why neither of the girls had the capacity to get help.

[maidu]

What is the timeline? According to the father, there are large discrepancies between when police were alerted, and when hotel staff may have first suspected something was dreadfully awry.

Also, when/where were the young women poisoned (if, in fact, they were poisoned)? The cc footage appears to show them being escorted back (while dazed, walking awkwardly?) - which may simply indicate being drunk. Or.... already poisoned?

Alcohol is considered a drug, but not necessarily a poison, unless taken in large amount. Debatable.

If the poison was contacted in the room, which appears likely, then that precludes foul play before the women entered that night, and it absolves the one or two Portuguese men. However, one of the men purportedly left a note apologizing for something, or expressing regret that the women were sick (therefore indicating the girls were poisoned before returning).

Additionally, there could have been debilitating substances (alcohol, magic mushrooms, or..?) ingested before returning, and additional poisoning after entering the room.

I just heard a report on NPR about a whole new type of 'designer drugs' which are debilitating and possibly fatal. They're thought to be custom made in India (ingredients change weekly) and shipped out, packaged as 'bath salts' ($10 per tiny package!). I've heard of similar drugs marketed as powdered incense. The packaging makes them appear legal, and law enforcement (in the US) is having a heck of a time trying to deal with this new trend.

[dingdang]

...we called in the sprayers.... They didn't even manage to get all the ticks but wiped out all my Koi..

i think, we cant exclude anymore, that pesticide was also used in the pool...

maybe, those who fell sick in CM, have been in the pool?

it could be possible, that the fatal poisoning is only "active" on 1-2 days, before it degrades...

and it seems, that the dosages of pesticides needed, and when which of them turns out fatal are not really known...

and most likely its not known/tested, what happenes when people swim in pesticide contamined pools...

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[Chopperboy]

...we called in the sprayers.... They didn't even manage to get all the ticks but wiped out all my Koi..

i think, we cant exclude anymore, that pesticide was also used in the pool...

maybe, those who fell sick in CM, have been in the pool?

it could be possible, that the fatal poisoning is only "active" on 1-2 days, before it degrades...

and it seems, that the dosages of pesticides needed, and when which of them turns out fatal are not really known...

and most likely its not known/tested, what happenes when people swim in pesticide contamined pools...

Dr Reeve M Sc (Toxicology), University of Surrey, UK; said “the toxicity of the pesticide via skin absorption is quite low – victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice.

[EyesWideOpen]

...we called in the sprayers.... They didn't even manage to get all the ticks but wiped out all my Koi..

i think, we cant exclude anymore, that pesticide was also used in the pool...

maybe, those who fell sick in CM, have been in the pool?

it could be possible, that the fatal poisoning is only "active" on 1-2 days, before it degrades...

and it seems, that the dosages of pesticides needed, and when which of them turns out fatal are not really known...

and most likely its not known/tested, what happenes when people swim in pesticide contamined pools...

Dr Reeve M Sc (Toxicology), University of Surrey, UK; said “the toxicity of the pesticide via skin absorption is quite low – victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice.

Thank you thank you thank you..... I wish the posters here would stop using the favorite red herring of the Thai police, chlorpyrifos , which makes the deaths seem sort of accidental.

[Ferangled]

...we called in the sprayers.... They didn't even manage to get all the ticks but wiped out all my Koi..

i think, we cant exclude anymore, that pesticide was also used in the pool...

maybe, those who fell sick in CM, have been in the pool?

it could be possible, that the fatal poisoning is only "active" on 1-2 days, before it degrades...

and it seems, that the dosages of pesticides needed, and when which of them turns out fatal are not really known...

and most likely its not known/tested, what happenes when people swim in pesticide contamined pools...

Dr Reeve M Sc (Toxicology), University of Surrey, UK; said “the toxicity of the pesticide via skin absorption is quite low – victims would have to be soaking in it to absorb enough to cause severe illness and death, and it has a smell that one could not fail to notice.

Thank you thank you thank you..... I wish the posters here would stop using the favorite red herring of the Thai police, chlorpyrifos , which makes the deaths seem sort of accidental.

Ok, I'm not saying this was accidental or deliberate or that this was due to chlorpyrifos, just making a point for discussion.

My point being that if the room was sprayed with excessive amounts of some incorrectly mixed pesticide (or some other concoction), this would result in oral consumption, inhalation and skin absorption, not one or the other.

Certainly in the case of my Koi it would have been a combination of all three; Pesticide ends up in the water, the fish "breath" it, get their skin covered in it and consumed it. Surely it would be much the same with people in a "tainted" hotel room?