New Draconian Property Law To Deport Foreigners Who "Owns" Land Illegally

[TommoPhysicist]

Thanks for your view TommoPhysicist, but they are suggesting that my friends are not real friends, which of course they really can't know.

They base their opinion on their own experience and if they are behaving badly in Thailand for sure you won't make any real friends. That would be the same in their homecountry.

Not sure what your last statement means: your own kind?

Who are your own kind? Another foreigner living in Thailand? No thanks. I have seen enough bad examples.

Of course there are also many good foreigners living here which I have met as well.

Your signature suggest you don't trust anybody, not even your children?

Friends

Lots of guys out here are overly trusting of both Thais and foreigners ......... very rare that you actually NEED to trust someone.

My own kind .......

Educated people with a world-wide outlook on things. (i.e. someone that might have a chance of naming half a dozen countries on a world map)

Trusting your children.

When you break up with a woman you have children with, often the kids are forced into making a choice, the father is rarely number one.

I've also known a lot of kids that steal, lie and cheat their parents (used to work with problem children).

Really good last post from RigPig.

I too have noticed that few Thais have friends in the same way western people consider, best friends for a month or a year, borrow some money, don't pay it back, never seen again is usually the way it works out. Their only constant connections are to their family, a relationship most of us from the west don't usually consider important.

Edited July 1, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Cheops]

Thanks for your view TommoPhysicist, but they are suggesting that my friends are not real friends, which of course they really can't know.

They base their opinion on their own experience and if they are behaving badly in Thailand for sure you won't make any real friends. That would be the same in their homecountry.

Not sure what your last statement means: your own kind?

Who are your own kind? Another foreigner living in Thailand? No thanks. I have seen enough bad examples.

Of course there are also many good foreigners living here which I have met as well.

Your signature suggest you don't trust anybody, not even your children?

Friends

Lots of guys out here are overly trusting of both Thais and foreigners ......... very rare that you actually NEED to trust someone.

My own kind .......

Educated people with a world-wide outlook on things. (i.e. someone that might have a change of naming half a dozen countries on a world map)

Trusting your children.

When you break up with a woman you have children with, often the kids are forced into making a choice, the father is rarely number one.

I've also known a lot of kids that steal, lie and cheat their parents (used to work with problem children).

About friends:

I'm not overly trusting (actually opposite of that), but friendships grow over the years. Some Thais I already know about 13 years and longer now.

My own kind:

well, most of my real Thai friends are indeed well educated people (Masters etc.) with a world-wide outlook on things. Most of them are well traveled as well.

Trusting your children:

I can't comment yet on this. So far we have 2 kids of 5 and 2 and I guess you are right when children have to choose they will mostly choose their mother.

Thanks for your answer.

[Bung]

Just the sort of thing to get the locals riled up over lao khao sessions at the corner shop and give some poor sod a good stabbing on the way home to get even.

[TommoPhysicist]

My own kind:

well, most of my real Thai friends are indeed well educated people (Masters etc.) with a world-wide outlook on things. Most of them are well traveled as well.

Give them the map test, I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

Thai education is ...... how can I say it, different, remember nobody fails.

Edited July 1, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Cheops]

My own kind:

well, most of my real Thai friends are indeed well educated people (Masters etc.) with a world-wide outlook on things. Most of them are well traveled as well.

Give them the map test, I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

Thai education is ...... how can I say it, different, remember nobody fails.

I know what you mean, but the Thais I'm talking about have a very good common knowledge (I think even better than some foreigners). They are also fluent in English.

Now I know that indeed most Thais really don't have any geographical knowledge like we have,

but I think when you ask 10 foreigners living in Pattaya to name some countries on the map you will get the same result as from the majority of Thais.

[simple1]

My own kind:

well, most of my real Thai friends are indeed well educated people (Masters etc.) with a world-wide outlook on things. Most of them are well traveled as well.

Give them the map test, I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

Thai education is ...... how can I say it, different, remember nobody fails.

I know what you mean, but the Thais I'm talking about have a very good common knowledge (I think even better than some foreigners). They are also fluent in English.

Now I know that indeed most Thais really don't have any geographical knowledge like we have,

but I think when you ask 10 foreigners living in Pattaya to name some countries on the map you will get the same result as from the majority of Thais.

probably right if they're American

[Beetlejuice]

There is really no excuse.

Those that decide to live long term in Thailand should be aware of the policies regarding property rights of foreigners. What’s the point of investing here, hoping that the laws will not be enforced, then complaining afterwards when things don`t go to plan?

For those wanting to Immigrate from their own countries should first do some research and perhaps go somewhere where the system is more ex-pat friendly and would be better suited to they’re lifestyles.

Many come here believing all the exaggerated tales that Thailand is some sort of paradise utopia. Sorry to burst the bubble, but it`s not. Thais only see Westerners as walking cash dispensers, sort of pay as you go guests, where they are completely under the authority of the Thais and strictly controlled.

Invested wealth is power and this is one thing the Thais are afraid of, that farangs will gain a foothold here and there are those who rule that will ensure this never happens.

For those who don’t mind living as third-rate residents with no statutory rights, with the risks of being thrown out the kingdom at a moments notice and where even the poorest Burmese immigrates have more clout in Thailand than the average ex-pat, than Thailand is for you, but there is no point in whinging if you have blown a fortune on a lame duck after you land here, because by that time, it`s too late.

[Lucrative]

Malaysia's "My Second Home" certainly contrasts with Thai policies. They actually welcome qualified foreigners, and no, they do not have a double price system for property transfer tax. They allow you to own a home on a plot of property together with a ten year renewable visa .........

Read the T&Cs http://www.mm2h.gov.my/conditions.php

This is a very expensive procedure to get a retirement visa compared to the Thai 800KB bank deposit.

Yes unfortunately the financial requirements outweigh the benefits of a long visa,tax free car and property ownership which is also regulated with a minimum price depending on which state. It was my first choice for early retirement but i fall a bit short of the 10,000 MYR required every month and having to keep 350,000 MYR in the bank at negligble interest rates is ludicrous. This scheme is clearly aimed at the well to do retiree,not someone seeking an inexepensive early retirement, such a shame as the people are great,the country has a lot to offer as far as beaches and scenery goes and it doesn't have the same development overload that Thailand has,its a bit of an overlooked paradise IMHO.

[RigPig]

There is really no excuse.

Those that decide to live long term in Thailand should be aware of the policies regarding property rights of foreigners. What’s the point of investing here, hoping that the laws will not be enforced, then complaining afterwards when things don`t go to plan?

For those wanting to Immigrate from their own countries should first do some research and perhaps go somewhere where the system is more ex-pat friendly and would be better suited to they’re lifestyles.

Many come here believing all the exaggerated tales that Thailand is some sort of paradise utopia. Sorry to burst the bubble, but it`s not. Thais only see Westerners as walking cash dispensers, sort of pay as you go guests, where they are completely under the authority of the Thais and strictly controlled.

Invested wealth is power and this is one thing the Thais are afraid of, that farangs will gain a foothold here and there are those who rule that will ensure this never happens.

For those who don’t mind living as third-rate residents with no statutory rights, with the risks of being thrown out the kingdom at a moments notice and where even the poorest Burmese immigrates have more clout in Thailand than the average ex-pat, than Thailand is for you, but there is no point in whinging if you have blown a fortune on a lame duck after you land here, because by that time, it`s too late.

I too do not feel sorry for the Farang "land developers". I know some who have made big money at it and they were the ones that knew it was illegal. building condo blocks and then selling them using this method to sell the other 51% to farangs. Their solicitors helped instigate it. However I can't help feel sorry for the ones that were conned by lines of "that's how it is done", or "everyone does it" and were literally duped into it believing it was all above board. It is likely thy will be the ones who pay the price. The small fry, the others already have someone in their back pocket. The people who really need prosecuting are the ones doing the selling using this method. I almost fell for it but fortunately listened to the "little voice in my head" and waited, and consequently discovered otherwise. It is not just Thais that are unscrupulous, but a lot of them learned too and truly did know what was going on but the material gains outweighed anything else.

[RogueLeader]

even the poorest Burmese immigrates have more clout in Thailand than the average ex-pat,

Are you annoyed because Burmese people, who are citizens of an ASEAN nation, have more pull in Thailand than Europeans and Americans? Or that money doesn't buy power quite as easily as you'd expected?

Would you be annoyed that 'even the poorest Belgian' has more 'clout' in France than a rich Emirati?

I don't understand your position.

[cheeryble]

SUBSTANTIVE POST

A friend who is pretty experienced about property here (CM) told me the Land Dept was now not registering usufructs.

I objected that a boss at a back desk at Mae Rim had himself suggested a usufruct (sit ti gep gin) just last year. My friend seemed confident this ban on usufructs had been so for about 6 months. His deals mostly with CM or Hang Dong office I guess not sure if this is a blanket ban or just confined to one office.

Can anyone substantiate?

Cheeryble

Never quoted myself but would like to keep this to the fore........

My friend said he he's heard this from various sources.

Are Land Offices still registering usufructs?

Just another case of the concerns I viewed before. You are playing the game their way but they don't like the fact you may have control so .....move the goal posts. Usufruct's are legal so why is someone in authority not following the law? What reasons do they give for not allowing it? I assume a lawyer drew up the documents so where is the problem? Oh that's right you are farang, that's the problem.

We still don't know if there's any truth in this (I'm skeptical as usufruct IS available under the law. Land offices will often take it for granted you will follow their particular recommendation for or against, but if you have a lawyer set out a usufruct my guess is they would concur. If there's a problem however, I would like to know about that).

BTW I've always found the Grom Teedins to be very helpful and with no bias against farangs. Might add if they stop a deal they lose a considerable tax receipt, and have you noticed each Land Office keeps a tally on the wall of their total tax take for the years.....almost like they are competing to be more important.

Just accept it no matter what you do, no matter that you follow the rules or the law, you are not Thai. You will NEVER gain control over land. There is no rule of law here. It is TOTALLY up to the policeman, or the official who is in charge at the time and I will say it again YOU ARE NOT THAI AND NEVER WILL BE. I had an incident once where it was pointed out to me that a dog that continually soiled me entrance way had more rights than me, it was Thai !!

Unhealthily cynical IMO. May I add I've had four motor incidents here and been paid out each time, twice under the supervision of the police (question of the day: does that make me lucky?)

Wait a minute.....I'm getting drawn into mere comment on comment and who cares about my addition to the hot air, better stop and hope for hard information or (rare) quality posts.

Cheeryble

Edited July 1, 2012 by cheeryble

[mucacho]

@Cheops (Thai Friends)....AHHAAHAAAHAAAAA AHAHHAAAAAAHAAA STOP IT ! ( Thai friends) ahahhhahaaaaahhahaaaaaa

There is no such thing as a Thai friend.....a few good Thai wives but even they will look at you sometime and say...Yes! it have to be that way...this is Thailand.. Your a F'n idiot if you think you have a real Thai friend. (Thailand IS my homecountry) ahaaahaaaaahaaaahaaaa What will you do for an encore. You either have no possesions and live from hand to mouth or your a complete fool to believe they are your friends. First time you have a serious Thai on falang problem away from your home you will find out just how kind Thailand. is.

Well, your post says probably more about you than about me To use your unnecessary words: you are a F'n idiot to write such a post about people you don't even know.

And I gladly keep it this way! Probably you don't have friends in your homecountry as well.

There are cerntainly a lot of good people here. Of course there are also a lot of bad people here, but this is the same in your homecountry.

I know that I have quite some good Thai friends. Real friends. For example one of them co-signed a 1 million car-finance (and if you really know Thai people you will know that they are hesitate to do this even for family, but as said these friends really know me very well), since it's difficult to get some trust from banks in the beginning. Probably that has to do with all the bad foreigners here who don't have friends (neither here or in their homecountry) and behave like they are the best (nicely said!). There are more examples why I know my friends are real friends, but I will not bother you with this and I will not try to explain to you about the homecountry thing, since your mindset will not believe it anyway.

What do still here in Thailand anyway? Since you can't make any friends here, don't trust the people here and you don't see this as your homecountry? I bet you are one of those people who just come here to enjoy and misuse the Thai females (reading in your post that you only have some good Thai wives).

You REALLY can't see past the end of your nose can you! He only co-signed your loan for the car hoping you would default and he could pick it up after you had made 1/2 the payments.

GET THIS STRAIGHT.....YOU WILL NEVER BE THAI.....YOU WILL ALWAYS BE LOOKED DOWN UPON!!!

WAKE UP dreamer, you are caught up in fantasy land worse than the idiots that frequent the bars looking for a good wife. Oh and by the way, misuse their females, who the dickens do you think sends them to work in the bars in the first place to be "misused" as you put it? THEIR PARENTS who don't want to work and only had them in the first place so they could live off them. Thai culture from good wholesome Thai families no doubt friends of yours.

i agree this guy is sucker, he will get cheated sooner or later that is exactly how falang is loosing all his fortune and end up under the bridge

[Beetlejuice]

even the poorest Burmese immigrates have more clout in Thailand than the average ex-pat,

Are you annoyed because Burmese people, who are citizens of an ASEAN nation, have more pull in Thailand than Europeans and Americans? Or that money doesn't buy power quite as easily as you'd expected?

Would you be annoyed that 'even the poorest Belgian' has more 'clout' in France than a rich Emirati?

I don't understand your position.

My point is, that ex-pats should accept and fully understand the situation for what it is, abide by the policies and terms & conditions for long stayers imposed by the Thai authorities and not try to bypass the system by using back door methods in the hope that no one notices, because the only thing this archives is the tightening up of regulations for all of us, which means, everyone’s a loser all round.

If some believe that these draconian and what could be considered are far right restrictions of Westerners living in Thailand, as being unfair and unjust, than it may be wise to seek a better lifestyle elsewhere, because nothing is going to change.

A Burmese can purchase land and property in the West, but it would be a lot more difficult for the Belgium in South East Asia and your example comparing the Belgium and the Burmese does not equate how you describe. But this is a different story and I can’t be bothered typing a 2000 word article and going into detail..

So how else would you like me to explain this?

Edited July 1, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[letitbe]

it is illegal for forangs to own land period so stop moaning and obey the law. I totally agree 100% with not allowing any forang to own any land here and anyone using the stupid company route or nominees deserve what they get. And yes please go buy up Malaysia, Laos and rest. Our children although half/half are full thai citizens and it is for this reason weve put most of land in their names although my wife owns our houses and land. Not so long ago it was illegal for a Thai lady married to a forang to own land and I doubt they will go back to that but if they do well simply transfer it all land from my wife's name to our children's. The condos the are very unlikely to ever bother about but again all those are now in my Thai wifes name or our 2 thai children's names.

And my thai wife and our thai children own property in UK and USA but if those countries wanted to ban foreigners from owning property thats also ok with me since our children also have UK citizenship.

I certainly dont want loads of forang buying up my Thai children's or other thai peoples land at whatever financial benefit. Perhaps if UK had a similar policy then its normal citizens could still afford a place in London or many other places.

[letitbe]

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

Totally true but is she goes unless she makes a will leaving it to someone else. My wifes will leaves all property to our children with a untrafact or whatever its called giving me right to live in our home until I also go but then since im over twice her age that is not likely to be needed. She could even have left land to me and condos and I would then have choice of either selling witihn 1 year .......

Why people who cant trust their wives ever bother to marry is totally beyond me and why should a Thai wife have less rights than my first 3 wife's who deserved all they received fro putting up with me and none of them ever tried to cheat me. It was all my fault as it will be if I ever split from my thai wife of 18+ years.

[letitbe]

will you enlighten me please, how come? I am married here since 12years too, and my wife bought some land in Phuket and we build a house on it 10 years ago. Her name is in the Chanot, if it was lease land she would not have bought it... I have no idea what you talking about...may be a new law? I know the government was talking about something like this...but if she buy land before married it will be still hers

it used to be the law I think before 1999 and many thais married to foreign did not change their names because of this law and simply bought in their maiden name

[letitbe]

The difference is I see it for what it is and accept it for what it is. I have lived here for 10 years, I like Thailand and choose to live here, but I have no doubts about where I REALLY fit in here and am happy to go along with it. You my friend are living an illusion created by those around you. One day the chips will be down and then you will find out where you fit into Thai society. You will never get a Thai to back you, whether you are right or not, against another Thai, no matter how long you have known them or how close to that person you think you are. I am not saying they are bad people, it's just how it is. You may not think this but my posts are not aimed at criticizing you but to (hopefully) opening your eyes a little BEFORE you find out the hard way.

By the way it doesn't matter how much money your friend has that co signed for your car (and if he had to do this you clearly never had enough money to pay cash for it so I have to question if you can REALLY afford to live in Thailand) adding some of yours to it would have been the only thing in his mind. It is the nature of the beast. You don't have to look far to see how they treat each other and especially if there is any material gain in it. They exploit there own people for profit and gain so do you really think they view you any differently?

My posts do not come from a narrow mind as you say but an aware one as yours should be. The simple fact you view Thailand as your homecountry as you put it shows that. Can you not see the injustice and double standards. If you don't believe me try telling all your "friends" and wife / girlfriend you have no money and see if they will help you out.

This post is about Thais once again moving the goal posts for their own gain and to take from unsuspecting and gullible people (like yourself) something they never earned or worked for. This is the point I am trying to make

To many quotes so answer to some of it

your both right but in 20 years here I have had thais back me against other thais but only when they really have a grudge against other thai and would back anyone who went against their enemy. My enemies enemy is my friend. However on few occasions its helped me win small battles here having thais support my corner for whatever reason

[RigPig]

The difference is I see it for what it is and accept it for what it is. I have lived here for 10 years, I like Thailand and choose to live here, but I have no doubts about where I REALLY fit in here and am happy to go along with it. You my friend are living an illusion created by those around you. One day the chips will be down and then you will find out where you fit into Thai society. You will never get a Thai to back you, whether you are right or not, against another Thai, no matter how long you have known them or how close to that person you think you are. I am not saying they are bad people, it's just how it is. You may not think this but my posts are not aimed at criticizing you but to (hopefully) opening your eyes a little BEFORE you find out the hard way.

By the way it doesn't matter how much money your friend has that co signed for your car (and if he had to do this you clearly never had enough money to pay cash for it so I have to question if you can REALLY afford to live in Thailand) adding some of yours to it would have been the only thing in his mind. It is the nature of the beast. You don't have to look far to see how they treat each other and especially if there is any material gain in it. They exploit there own people for profit and gain so do you really think they view you any differently?

My posts do not come from a narrow mind as you say but an aware one as yours should be. The simple fact you view Thailand as your homecountry as you put it shows that. Can you not see the injustice and double standards. If you don't believe me try telling all your "friends" and wife / girlfriend you have no money and see if they will help you out.

This post is about Thais once again moving the goal posts for their own gain and to take from unsuspecting and gullible people (like yourself) something they never earned or worked for. This is the point I am trying to make

To many quotes so answer to some of it

your both right but in 20 years here I have had thais back me against other thais but only when they really have a grudge against other thai and would back anyone who went against their enemy. My enemies enemy is my friend. However on few occasions its helped me win small battles here having thais support my corner for whatever reason

Which shows my point, the only time you were aided by a Thai was because they had something to gain by it ! Never because you were right or because they were your friend. I too have had Thai's aid me in disputes but only to back down and shrug their shoulders when it came to the pinch. Unless, as you have reiterated, they themselves had something to gain by it. I am not even saying this is wrong, it is just the way it is. What is wrong is that they perport to have some sort of legal, / justice system, some sort of law but anyone in authority can change it at a whim for whatever reason. Apart from the obvious such as traffic laws, what about import tax /duty (made up on the spot depending on how much you are likely to need / want it), Visa's you comply with all the rules and regulations and someone in the embassy decides you don't get it, and now this. It has been going on for years and many Thais (as well as Farangs) have profited greatly from it, lawyers have drawn up the documents and supplied the nominees and now they want to confiscate the property. It is these people that should be penalised they knew they were bending / breaking the law. The poor farang that was told "that's how it's done" did not and was duped. It is difficult here, how many people sign legal documents here that they can't read because they are in Thai? At some point you have to trust someone or get nowhere.

[simple1]

The difference is I see it for what it is and accept it for what it is. I have lived here for 10 years, I like Thailand and choose to live here, but I have no doubts about where I REALLY fit in here and am happy to go along with it. You my friend are living an illusion created by those around you. One day the chips will be down and then you will find out where you fit into Thai society. You will never get a Thai to back you, whether you are right or not, against another Thai, no matter how long you have known them or how close to that person you think you are. I am not saying they are bad people, it's just how it is. You may not think this but my posts are not aimed at criticizing you but to (hopefully) opening your eyes a little BEFORE you find out the hard way.

By the way it doesn't matter how much money your friend has that co signed for your car (and if he had to do this you clearly never had enough money to pay cash for it so I have to question if you can REALLY afford to live in Thailand) adding some of yours to it would have been the only thing in his mind. It is the nature of the beast. You don't have to look far to see how they treat each other and especially if there is any material gain in it. They exploit there own people for profit and gain so do you really think they view you any differently?

My posts do not come from a narrow mind as you say but an aware one as yours should be. The simple fact you view Thailand as your homecountry as you put it shows that. Can you not see the injustice and double standards. If you don't believe me try telling all your "friends" and wife / girlfriend you have no money and see if they will help you out.

This post is about Thais once again moving the goal posts for their own gain and to take from unsuspecting and gullible people (like yourself) something they never earned or worked for. This is the point I am trying to make

To many quotes so answer to some of it

your both right but in 20 years here I have had thais back me against other thais but only when they really have a grudge against other thai and would back anyone who went against their enemy. My enemies enemy is my friend. However on few occasions its helped me win small battles here having thais support my corner for whatever reason

Which shows my point, the only time you were aided by a Thai was because they had something to gain by it ! Never because you were right or because they were your friend. I too have had Thai's aid me in disputes but only to back down and shrug their shoulders when it came to the pinch. Unless, as you have reiterated, they themselves had something to gain by it. I am not even saying this is wrong, it is just the way it is. What is wrong is that they perport to have some sort of legal, / justice system, some sort of law but anyone in authority can change it at a whim for whatever reason. Apart from the obvious such as traffic laws, what about import tax /duty (made up on the spot depending on how much you are likely to need / want it), Visa's you comply with all the rules and regulations and someone in the embassy decides you don't get it, and now this. It has been going on for years and many Thais (as well as Farangs) have profited greatly from it, lawyers have drawn up the documents and supplied the nominees and now they want to confiscate the property. It is these people that should be penalised they knew they were bending / breaking the law. The poor farang that was told "that's how it's done" did not and was duped. It is difficult here, how many people sign legal documents here that they can't read because they are in Thai? At some point you have to trust someone or get nowhere.

Note that "Ombudsman Siracha Charoenpanij said the new law would comprise punishment for companies offering advice to foreigners on how to hold Thai property by disguising their legal transaction. This would include law firms and consultants". In any case I would doubt that the proposed changes to existing law are targeted at individual household owners. If their is that fear is their a legal mechanism to remove Thai nominees from the company structure.?

As you well know do not sign any legal document written in Thai until it has been independently translated into your language. if you do sign without understanding the content, to put it bluntly, you're a fool. The same in any country, not just Thailand

Edited July 1, 2012 by simple1

[Pops]

"I've heard there was a broker buying land plots throughout a tambon in Surin to cultivate Hom Mali rice," he said. "If such an act is not prevented, will there be any land left for our children?"

I've heard of a cow that gives chocolate milk, I do however not know whether it is true or not, maybe should check it first.

[Pops]

The difference is I see it for what it is and accept it for what it is. I have lived here for 10 years, I like Thailand and choose to live here, but I have no doubts about where I REALLY fit in here and am happy to go along with it. You my friend are living an illusion created by those around you. One day the chips will be down and then you will find out where you fit into Thai society. You will never get a Thai to back you, whether you are right or not, against another Thai, no matter how long you have known them or how close to that person you think you are. I am not saying they are bad people, it's just how it is. You may not think this but my posts are not aimed at criticizing you but to (hopefully) opening your eyes a little BEFORE you find out the hard way.

By the way it doesn't matter how much money your friend has that co signed for your car (and if he had to do this you clearly never had enough money to pay cash for it so I have to question if you can REALLY afford to live in Thailand) adding some of yours to it would have been the only thing in his mind. It is the nature of the beast. You don't have to look far to see how they treat each other and especially if there is any material gain in it. They exploit there own people for profit and gain so do you really think they view you any differently?

My posts do not come from a narrow mind as you say but an aware one as yours should be. The simple fact you view Thailand as your homecountry as you put it shows that. Can you not see the injustice and double standards. If you don't believe me try telling all your "friends" and wife / girlfriend you have no money and see if they will help you out.

This post is about Thais once again moving the goal posts for their own gain and to take from unsuspecting and gullible people (like yourself) something they never earned or worked for. This is the point I am trying to make

To many quotes so answer to some of it

your both right but in 20 years here I have had thais back me against other thais but only when they really have a grudge against other thai and would back anyone who went against their enemy. My enemies enemy is my friend. However on few occasions its helped me win small battles here having thais support my corner for whatever reason

Which shows my point, the only time you were aided by a Thai was because they had something to gain by it ! Never because you were right or because they were your friend. I too have had Thai's aid me in disputes but only to back down and shrug their shoulders when it came to the pinch. Unless, as you have reiterated, they themselves had something to gain by it. I am not even saying this is wrong, it is just the way it is. What is wrong is that they perport to have some sort of legal, / justice system, some sort of law but anyone in authority can change it at a whim for whatever reason. Apart from the obvious such as traffic laws, what about import tax /duty (made up on the spot depending on how much you are likely to need / want it), Visa's you comply with all the rules and regulations and someone in the embassy decides you don't get it, and now this. It has been going on for years and many Thais (as well as Farangs) have profited greatly from it, lawyers have drawn up the documents and supplied the nominees and now they want to confiscate the property. It is these people that should be penalised they knew they were bending / breaking the law. The poor farang that was told "that's how it's done" did not and was duped. It is difficult here, how many people sign legal documents here that they can't read because they are in Thai? At some point you have to trust someone or get nowhere.

Note that "Ombudsman Siracha Charoenpanij said the new law would comprise punishment for companies offering advice to foreigners on how to hold Thai property by disguising their legal transaction. This would include law firms and consultants". In any case I would doubt that the proposed changes to existing law are targeted at individual household owners. If their is that fear is their a legal mechanism to remove Thai nominees from the company structure.?

As you well know do not sign any legal document written in Thai until it has been independently translated into your language. if you do sign without understanding the content, to put it bluntly, you're a fool. The same in any country, not just Thailand

Foreigners buying land in Thailand with Nominee share holders.

Nominee shareholders being Thais that only act as a shareholder on paper to allow the Foreigner to own the land on a company, but in fact he does not own the land at all.

The company of which the so called Nominees own 51 % shares owns the land, and can only own the land after the land department has approved the ownership of this land by concerned company.

Of course many people set up a company with 100 % Thai ownership to acquire land.

This transaction is not scrutinized by the land department and afterwards (still only) 49 % of the shares are transferred to a Foreigner, who has some control through directorship etc.

Share transfers are not scrutinized by land department and the Ministry of Commerce does not check land ownership of companies.

So if he ministry of commerce would check, if a company owns land upon share transfers to Foreigners, the problem could easily be solved.

However we look at the whole matter, the Foreigner who assumes he owns land through a company still does not own anything at all, for nominee shareholders or not, the company owned by a Thai majority owns the land.

Lawyers and real estate agents only give foreign buyers a feeling they can own land.

Listen, if it is against the law for foreigners to buy land in Thailand then that is it.

You cannot make any company structure or contractual agreement that is against the law, period.

The fact that it is very easy to open companies in Thailand and share transfers are done easily, in combination with smooth talking lawyers and real estate agents, gives certain Foreigners a feeling they own land in Thailand and that is all.

The only thing that will change with the new rules, is that the reality of Foreigners not being able to own land in Thailand, is kicking in a bit more, nothing else changes !

[Pops]

"I've heard there was a broker buying land plots throughout a tambon in Surin to cultivate Hom Mali rice," he said. "If such an act is not prevented, will there be any land left for our children?"

I've heard of a cow that gives chocolate milk, I do however not know whether it is true or not, maybe should check it first.

[Arkady]

You can also purchase Cambodian citizenship for less than US$50,000 paid into the right pockets.

And not Thai ?

To get real Thai citizenship by naturalization you do need to be qualified according to the Nationality Act. There may be some claims of tea money and the ministry guidelines warn of agents falsely claiming to speed things up for cash but it is virtually impossible to get it without being qualified. On the other hand a lot of people pay for fake ID cards which may be genuinely issued by corrupt district offices in the names of deceased Thais. This route is normally used by Chinese and other Asians and is not recommended for farangs! In Cambodia I met several farang hustlers who claim to be lawyers, consultants or investors who said they had acquired Cambodian nationality for US$30,000 a few years ago. As far as I know the payment is made to someone high up in the government who exercises some sort of waiver on their behalf which may be allowed by the Cambodian nationality law. I don't think there is any other normal route towards naturalization in Cambodia by paying a small fee and waiting for years, as in Thailand but haven't looked into the Cambodian law much, as I have no real interest in moving there and am also a couple of years down the track with my Thai citizenship application, having already obtained PR.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Arkady

[thaifamilyguy]

So getting back on topic, to sum up here:

1. It appears its always been the policy not to permit foreigners to own land or control land for more than 30years through a lease. Neither is a policy that has been thought-out from the foreigners/foreign investment perspective.

2. Corruption not legitimate loopholes is the only reason this not enforced.

3. Thus anybody putting substantial sums (whatever that may be for an individual case) at risk has been playing off the fact that there has been

no enforcement, either because its been neglected or no system that would work, or again, corruption.

4. The proposed new rules would not change the ban on foreigners, just cleverly find ways to enforce, by targeting the Thai firms and a whistleblower provision.

There could be some remedies to permit a healthy expat investment market (how many thai's want to buy little plots with 2 bedroom houses in Phukett/Samui, etc.????) but that is NOT what is in the news at this point. What is in the news in ONE GUY, regardless of his position, throwing out his wishlist. It needs to become genuine legislation and it needs to have effective backers. That process is likely to sustantially delay and change to the "threat."

The Ombudsman's problem is that he created enemies right up front by saying firms advising on this would face criminal prosecution, if this is persuasive then I would think those firms are going to want to kill this and I would expect it is notjust a few "bad apples." It will be interesting to see how it proceeds or if it proceeds as corruption's #1 effect is always delay +/- killing it off vs. amending to something actually workable.

5. Nobody in the forum has fessed up to actually owning this way...unless the off topic rants are the signals?

it would seem to me that like the change in Thai spouses being able to buy property I had not known about, there will be a carve-out of some sort, perhaps on the Malaysian model, before any blanket enforcement. The issue of course is what that carve out would be. In mainland china an expat can buy one residence if he is there on a residence visa, for example (though everybody never sells but rents). It would be pretty simple to distinguish rice farmers from Thai sellers of tiny unproductive vacation plots at exhorb. prices.

So it would appear that until there is a clear route to ownership, best not build on a foundation of sand. All the more so as I would suspect the nominee structure is an expensive annual expense, w/ annual audits, etc. just to own the property...illegally.

Anybody actually disagree?

[Arkady]

Are Land Offices still registering usufructs? - not if at the time of application you are married to a Thai, not enforceable under Thai law.

I don't think there has been any directive to Land offices not to register usufructs. Usufruct is enshrined in the law and would require an act of parliament to phase it out, something that is certainly not a legislative priority of the current government. What has been happening for years is that some local Land Dept staff either don't like usufructs or, more likely, don't like usufructs in favour of foreigners. So they just refuse to register them and, this being Thailand, they act like little Hitlers with the power to make up whatever laws please them. Technically you may file a complaint about their refusal to abide by Thai law with the Administrative Court but I can't say how far this would get you, particularly if there is any element of nomineeship in the ownership of the land in question.

[PattayaPhom]

There is really no excuse.

Those that decide to live long term in Thailand should be aware of the policies regarding property rights of foreigners. What’s the point of investing here, hoping that the laws will not be enforced, then complaining afterwards when things don`t go to plan?

For those wanting to Immigrate from their own countries should first do some research and perhaps go somewhere where the system is more ex-pat friendly and would be better suited to they’re lifestyles.

Many come here believing all the exaggerated tales that Thailand is some sort of paradise utopia. Sorry to burst the bubble, but it`s not. Thais only see Westerners as walking cash dispensers, sort of pay as you go guests, where they are completely under the authority of the Thais and strictly controlled.

Invested wealth is power and this is one thing the Thais are afraid of, that farangs will gain a foothold here and there are those who rule that will ensure this never happens.

For those who don’t mind living as third-rate residents with no statutory rights, with the risks of being thrown out the kingdom at a moments notice and where even the poorest Burmese immigrates have more clout in Thailand than the average ex-pat, than Thailand is for you, but there is no point in whinging if you have blown a fortune on a lame duck after you land here, because by that time, it`s too late.

Dont know why you think Burmeese have more rights...but even if they did, its natuaral as they are a bordering country...same as French have more rights in th UK rather than someone from Brazil

[LennyW]

Are Land Offices still registering usufructs? - not if at the time of application you are married to a Thai, not enforceable under Thai law.

I don't think there has been any directive to Land offices not to register usufructs. Usufruct is enshrined in the law and would require an act of parliament to phase it out, something that is certainly not a legislative priority of the current government. What has been happening for years is that some local Land Dept staff either don't like usufructs or, more likely, don't like usufructs in favour of foreigners. So they just refuse to register them and, this being Thailand, they act like little Hitlers with the power to make up whatever laws please them. Technically you may file a complaint about their refusal to abide by Thai law with the Administrative Court but I can't say how far this would get you, particularly if there is any element of nomineeship in the ownership of the land in question.

What the Land Office's don't like are Usufructs presented to them that have been severely modified by lawyers, some of them have so much clauses and alterations they just confuse!!, never known of anyone having a problem registering an Usufruct using the standard paperwork provided by the Land Office.

[Arkady]

So getting back on topic, to sum up here:

1. It appears its always been the policy not to permit foreigners to own land or control land for more than 30years through a lease. Neither is a policy that has been thought-out from the foreigners/foreign investment perspective.

2. Corruption not legitimate loopholes is the only reason this not enforced.

3. Thus anybody putting substantial sums (whatever that may be for an individual case) at risk has been playing off the fact that there has been

no enforcement, either because its been neglected or no system that would work, or again, corruption.

4. The proposed new rules would not change the ban on foreigners, just cleverly find ways to enforce, by targeting the Thai firms and a whistleblower provision.

There could be some remedies to permit a healthy expat investment market (how many thai's want to buy little plots with 2 bedroom houses in Phukett/Samui, etc.????) but that is NOT what is in the news at this point. What is in the news in ONE GUY, regardless of his position, throwing out his wishlist. It needs to become genuine legislation and it needs to have effective backers. That process is likely to sustantially delay and change to the "threat."

The Ombudsman's problem is that he created enemies right up front by saying firms advising on this would face criminal prosecution, if this is persuasive then I would think those firms are going to want to kill this and I would expect it is notjust a few "bad apples." It will be interesting to see how it proceeds or if it proceeds as corruption's #1 effect is always delay +/- killing it off vs. amending to something actually workable.

5. Nobody in the forum has fessed up to actually owning this way...unless the off topic rants are the signals?

it would seem to me that like the change in Thai spouses being able to buy property I had not known about, there will be a carve-out of some sort, perhaps on the Malaysian model, before any blanket enforcement. The issue of course is what that carve out would be. In mainland china an expat can buy one residence if he is there on a residence visa, for example (though everybody never sells but rents). It would be pretty simple to distinguish rice farmers from Thai sellers of tiny unproductive vacation plots at exhorb. prices.

So it would appear that until there is a clear route to ownership, best not build on a foundation of sand. All the more so as I would suspect the nominee structure is an expensive annual expense, w/ annual audits, etc. just to own the property...illegally.

Anybody actually disagree?

In the past foreigners were allowed to own land in Thailand. Some foreign entities, e.g. The British Club of Bangkok, still do own land they acquired before the restrictions were imposed. HSBC and Stanchart Bank also owned land until they flogged it off in the early 90s. The limitation of 30 years on leases on land (except industrial land which can be 50 years) is in the Land Code and applies to all lessees, not just foreigners. Certainly none of this has been thought through from the perspective of the modern age and investment competition from emerging neighbouring countries that have modern investment codes designed to attract foreign direct investment. Nearly all of the land legislation dates back to 1954, while the laws on company ownership and work permits are virtually unchanged since the early 70s!

"The proposed new rules would not change the ban on foreigners, just cleverly find ways to enforce, by targeting the Thai firms and a whistleblower provision." If this thing ever saw the light of day, the Thai firms would obviously be allowed amnesty if they blew the whistle on themselves. So they would need to race against any other Thais that wanted to blow the whistle on them. Having made fat fees on the original transactions they could earn another 20% on the forced sales at public auction. Then they could buy at low prices in the rigged auctions and resell again or rent out to any remaining farang customers that have not been deported and blacklisted!

[Arkady]

Are Land Offices still registering usufructs? - not if at the time of application you are married to a Thai, not enforceable under Thai law.

I don't think there has been any directive to Land offices not to register usufructs. Usufruct is enshrined in the law and would require an act of parliament to phase it out, something that is certainly not a legislative priority of the current government. What has been happening for years is that some local Land Dept staff either don't like usufructs or, more likely, don't like usufructs in favour of foreigners. So they just refuse to register them and, this being Thailand, they act like little Hitlers with the power to make up whatever laws please them. Technically you may file a complaint about their refusal to abide by Thai law with the Administrative Court but I can't say how far this would get you, particularly if there is any element of nomineeship in the ownership of the land in question.

What the Land Office's don't like are Usufructs presented to them that have been severely modified by lawyers, some of them have so much clauses and alterations they just confuse!!, never known of anyone having a problem registering an Usufruct using the standard paperwork provided by the Land Office.

In my experience the Land Office in Bkk didn't look at the agreements between the parties to the usufruct drawn up by lawyers. They were only interested in their standard form, although they did interview my wife and ask her somewhat half heartedly if she really wanted to assign a life time usufruct for nil consideration. It is possible that some offices might ask to see the agreements but they will not register them as part of the usufruct. If the lawyer's agreement creates a promote, it might be easiest to tell the Land Office that there isn't a separate agreement - just the standard form. The legal agreements don't effect the registration or enforcement of the usufruct by the Land Office which is to done according to law and ministerial regulations. Any breech of the legal agreement has to be addressed in a civil court. I think the problem is more likely to be the interview of the usufructor revealing the essence of the lawyers' agreement and the officer's personal conclusions that the deal is unfair to the Thai usufructor. At any rate any agreement between man and wife can be held by a court to be null and void under the Civil and Commercial Code, if the court rules that one spouse took unfair advantage of the other.

[Arkady]

Are Land Offices still registering usufructs? - not if at the time of application you are married to a Thai, not enforceable under Thai law.

I don't think there has been any directive to Land offices not to register usufructs. Usufruct is enshrined in the law and would require an act of parliament to phase it out, something that is certainly not a legislative priority of the current government. What has been happening for years is that some local Land Dept staff either don't like usufructs or, more likely, don't like usufructs in favour of foreigners. So they just refuse to register them and, this being Thailand, they act like little Hitlers with the power to make up whatever laws please them. Technically you may file a complaint about their refusal to abide by Thai law with the Administrative Court but I can't say how far this would get you, particularly if there is any element of nomineeship in the ownership of the land in question.

What the Land Office's don't like are Usufructs presented to them that have been severely modified by lawyers, some of them have so much clauses and alterations they just confuse!!, never known of anyone having a problem registering an Usufruct using the standard paperwork provided by the Land Office.

In my experience the Land Office in Bkk was not shown the detailed agreement between the parties to the usufruct drawn up by lawyers which was a side agreement that could be arbitrated in the civil court but is not directedly enforceable by the Land Dept which would probably give short shrift to a foreign usufructee making a complaint anyway. We only submitted the standard form and this seems a better way to go than trying to get the Land Office to accept multiple alterations and additions to their standard usufruct agreement form. They did interview my wife and ask her somewhat half heartedly if she really wanted to assign a life time usufruct for nil consideration to a farang but that was after the chief had assured her that he knew exactly what was going on and was sure that the farang had paid all the money for the property. However, he didn't ask for any tea money and seemed bored by the whole process but just wanted to let us know he knew, kinda thing. Some Land officers, particularly in rural districts, may be more zealous in exercising their discretion to decline usufruct registrations based on interview, even without offending material inserted into the standard form by lawyers but it is as well not to let the lawyers throw it in their faces. I can imagine they would object to a long litany of usufructees' rights such as the right to re-assign, some of which are at any rate covered by a Supreme Court ruling.

Any agreement between man and wife can be deemed by a court to be null and void under the Civil and Commercial Code, if it rules that one spouse used their influence to take unfair advantage of the other. So it is advisable to purchase your property (making the declaration that applies to foreign cohabitees as well as spouses of land purchasors) and execute your usufruct agreement before you get married, if the timing can work out.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Arkady