New Draconian Property Law To Deport Foreigners Who "Owns" Land Illegally

[renaissanc]

My children have Thai nationality. Can I just transfer money to them so that they can buy the land and house in their names?

[moskito]

New draconian property laws to deport foreigners who "owns" land illegally

GREAT, why not... start with the foreigners who bought land without chanot (and knew it) on Laem Prom Thep in Phuket

South...its property of her Majesty the Princess of Thailand and a natural reserve...however, building is going on there since

years and a building-stop for half a year forgotten in the meantime.......I dont want have the same in my country and want foreigners deported there too...why not in Thailand?

- Higher tax on foreigner property transactions

good idea too.... buy a house for a million, sale it for two, next one sale it for 4 and so on.... without government tax??? rediculous!

- New law would also deport foreigners found guilty of holding land plots in Thailand illegally

WHY not? should the Thais just watch while foreigners buy millions of Rai to make money with it?? Same law in Europe would make ME very happy. In Europe btw. Thais are allowed to buy and open restaurants and OWN EVERYTHING

- Longer leasehold periods such as 50 or 90 years proposed

good idea, will solve a lot of problems....EHHHM, BTW... is this law for EVERY FOREIGNER or just for every white, FARANG foreigner?? just curious if it will concern Chinese also

Edited June 29, 2012 by moskito

[Spellforce]

If you want to purchase a house in Thailand, there are 3 main ways:

1 - Illegal way: Create a company with thai nominees. Every 2-3 years there are new enforcement of the law, in mid/long term you are sure to loose the land and money.

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

For me there are few solutions:

- If you are single or living with a prostitute ( a girl who asks x bahts per week or per month): RENT !!!

- If you are married with a normal thai girl, after 4-5 years together, you may think about buying a house at the name of your thai wife.

PS: In Pattaya I saw many new houses sold for the "farang" market and overpriced ! For instance 10 million bahts for a nice villa with a private swimming pool: when the farang owner want to resell, it's really hard to sell higher than 5 millions bahts (don't believe the real estate agencies). But what will happen with this new law inforcement... with more houses to sell ? This kind of villa will be sold at 3-4 millions bahts ???

[Ianatlarge]

I read this as an example of duplicity and propaganda. Land is not being taken from "children" by wealthy foreigners, but by Thai business people screwing farmers out of their land. If anything, villages view the one or two foreigners living in their villages as helpers, a little money and a little more sway with money lenders. Painting farang as the bad guys is simply using them as a scapegoat.

[moskito]

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

[TheGhostWithin]

probably the reason for the double-standard is that Thailand is worried that since foreigners have more money than the average Thai, foreigners will wind up buying most of the countries land and most Thai's will end up having to rent from foreigners at higher rent prices than if the land was protected against foreign ownership, or buying land at higher prices.

Can you please explain to me why a Thai can buy land in the UK, but UK citizens can't buy land here?

"Will there be any land left for our Thai children?"

Rich Thais who already ownlarge swathes of land both in Thailand, and also in Australia, Uk, Usa, Canada and New Zealand are on average more wealthy than those tourists interested in purchasing a small piece of land for a garden and their own home.

The concern should be over both where the profits of the land will go (remain in the Thai economy or be remitted abroad) and if the purchase od lands by foreigners will affect food security.

It appears, that either the Thai government fears foreigners are more likely to remit profits to purhase luxury homes in the UK than rich Thais, or that rich farangs will hike the price of food denying some of the poorest access to a healthy diet.

In my opinion, the Rich families of Thailand are already doing what the Thai government is trying to prevent wealthy foreigners from doing (legally). Is this xenophobia or protectionism?

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

[TheGhostWithin]

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

If I a, not misunderstood, on the passing of a Thai spouse, the ownerahip of the property then lies with the foreign husband, for which he has a fixed periodmof time to sell the property. This often means Thais buying it off what they know to be a Farang looking to sell in a hurry, so the Thai buyer often gets very a very good purchase price.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

[jellykookabanj]

More of the same top-down, nobody really cares, moralizing by a few holier-than-thou hateful elitist politicians. In the meantime, they will be happy to take your tourism and sex-trade money.

So it is OK that Taksin can manipulate millions of Rai of land for his family to buy at a pittance. Chbinese and Singaporeans can buy land too. GOD FORBID that a Farang buys a house and land for his wife in her name. The very old law states that if this is the case then land confiscated from wife and she loses everything and Farang deported. Surely that law was enough to apply withou this xenephobic sabre rattling again. <Deleted>

Edited June 29, 2012 by metisdead
: Inappropriate language removed.

[Spellforce]

IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent.

With a good lawyer, you can for sure have 50% and even 100% (if you are not married for long time).

Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife...

I didn't know that ! Good to know, thank you !

[LennyW]

If you want to purchase a house in Thailand, there are 3 main ways:

1 - Illegal way: Create a company with thai nominees. Every 2-3 years there are new enforcement of the law, in mid/long term you are sure to loose the land and money.

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

For me there are few solutions:

- If you are single or living with a prostitute ( a girl who asks x bahts per week or per month): RENT !!!

- If you are married with a normal thai girl, after 4-5 years together, you may think about buying a house at the name of your thai wife.

PS: In Pattaya I saw many new houses sold for the "farang" market and overpriced ! For instance 10 million bahts for a nice villa with a private swimming pool: when the farang owner want to resell, it's really hard to sell higher than 5 millions bahts (don't believe the real estate agencies). But what will happen with this new law inforcement... with more houses to sell ? This kind of villa will be sold at 3-4 millions bahts ???

You forgot the lifetime Usufruct option, totally legal and rapidly becoming the norm for foreign ownership, not suitable for everyone though, ie: if you are already married.

[belg]

how difficult would it be to make a law : farang living here minimum 3 years, married, having enough cash in the bank, can buy 1 rai of land in his name .... ??????

but than again, thai politicians, why would they even bother .... we are all ALIEN till we die or go back

[Briggsy]

Aimed at the Chinese.

[lensta]

IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent.

With a good lawyer, you can for sure have 50% and even 100% (if you are not married for long time).

Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife...

I didn't know that ! Good to know, thank you !

This is true, that is why you must make sure that your wife has a will leaving the property to you.

[Tatsujin]

IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent.

With a good lawyer, you can for sure have 50% and even 100% (if you are not married for long time).

Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife...

I didn't know that ! Good to know, thank you !

This is true, that is why you must make sure that your wife has a will leaving the property to you.

And then you have to sell it immediately . . . within 30 days?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Tatsujin

[lensta]

If you want to purchase a house in Thailand, there are 3 main ways:

1 - Illegal way: Create a company with thai nominees. Every 2-3 years there are new enforcement of the law, in mid/long term you are sure to loose the land and money.

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

For me there are few solutions:

- If you are single or living with a prostitute ( a girl who asks x bahts per week or per month): RENT !!!

- If you are married with a normal thai girl, after 4-5 years together, you may think about buying a house at the name of your thai wife.

PS: In Pattaya I saw many new houses sold for the "farang" market and overpriced ! For instance 10 million bahts for a nice villa with a private swimming pool: when the farang owner want to resell, it's really hard to sell higher than 5 millions bahts (don't believe the real estate agencies). But what will happen with this new law inforcement... with more houses to sell ? This kind of villa will be sold at 3-4 millions bahts ???

You forgot the lifetime Usufruct option, totally legal and rapidly becoming the norm for foreign ownership, not suitable for everyone though, ie: if you are already married.

This is definitely an option, but there have been cases where the boss of the land department has refused to to register this option for a farang

[rebelplatoon]

Isn't it funny that it's all these 2nd generation CHINESE making all these laws in Government???!! Now that they control Thailand, let's prevent any foreigners from "owning" land.

[renaissanc]

If you want to purchase a house in Thailand, there are 3 main ways:

1 - Illegal way: Create a company with thai nominees. Every 2-3 years there are new enforcement of the law, in mid/long term you are sure to loose the land and money.

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

For me there are few solutions:

- If you are single or living with a prostitute ( a girl who asks x bahts per week or per month): RENT !!!

- If you are married with a normal thai girl, after 4-5 years together, you may think about buying a house at the name of your thai wife.

PS: In Pattaya I saw many new houses sold for the "farang" market and overpriced ! For instance 10 million bahts for a nice villa with a private swimming pool: when the farang owner want to resell, it's really hard to sell higher than 5 millions bahts (don't believe the real estate agencies). But what will happen with this new law inforcement... with more houses to sell ? This kind of villa will be sold at 3-4 millions bahts ???

Thank you very much for the advice. My wife isn't the bar girl type, thank goodness. I could put the land in her name without worrying, but I would like to put it in my (Thai-British) children's names. They have Thai ID cards. I'm wondering if the source of the money will be investigated since the authorities are so paranoid. I suppose I could make a legal document stating that the money is a present for them. I don't know though.

On the other hand, we hear politicians creating a storm about this every 9 months or so, and then the dust settles and no changes are made.

[simple1]

Over the past decade, there have been so many statements from various government officials that they are about to clamp down on foreigners owning land through illegal nominees, and that new, draconian laws will be introduced.

But apart from a few ‘scaremongering’ actions and statements from regional land offices that they are going after these land-owning ‘criminals’, little has been done to disturb the peace and tranquillity of those farangs who ‘own a property through the company/nominee system. To my knowledge, not a single farang, who lives in his own home, has ever been brought to book, and had his home seized or been forced to sell and deported from Thailand.

Therefor it is not unreasonable to assume that these new proposed laws will also die a similar death over the coming weeks and months.

Changing the land laws here is a very lengthy and complicated business, and just because one guy says he is drafting new laws, there is absolutely no reason to assume that anything is going to change any time soon – if ever.

There are so many obstacles to overcome, including partisan ‘fights to the death’ by opposing political parties on anything that smacks of controversial legislation that in all probability, it will die a death like all previous land reform proposals.

If the government wanted to clamp down on foreign land ownership, it would make far more sense to go after the ‘nominee shams’ than try to bring in new laws. They already have the necessary laws if they really want to do something.

In any event, for a vast majority of farangs who only want their dream home in paradise to eke out their remaining years, then the proposal to lengthen the lease period from 30 to 50 or 90 years would satisfy a vast majority of farang residents. The maximum 30 year lease rule has always been the major bone of contention as they would live in fear of being thrown out of their homes in their dotage, with little money and nowhere to go.

As for those who predict dire consequences for the tourist industry if such laws are passed, well quite frankly that is just laughable. The number of tourists coming to Thailand has increased year on year for decades, regardless of coups, murders and rapes of foreigners, scams, and any amount of negative publicity.

The punters will never stop coming here – no matter what the government does to the land laws or anything else, for that matter. It is fact that for every tourist who says they are not coming back, there are at least ten new ones to take their place. Get used to it, and stop making foolish, unsubstantiated, dire predictions on tourist numbers dramatically dropping.

99% of the tourists couldn’t give a hoot what Thailand does with its land laws.

But maybe these new proposals have nothing to do with the farangs who own land and homes through dubious legal devices.

It is actually highly possible that it has much more to do with the activities of an alarming trend in governments and corporations of rich countries to buy up farmland on a large scale in more than 60 developing countries to produce basic foods for export.

According to the farmers’ rights group, GRAIN, on worldwide farmland grabs, the massive rush was triggered by the food crisis in 2007 and 2008.

To protect themselves, the food-importing countries, led by the Gulf States, started to use "farming abroad" to secure direct food supplies.

According to the World Bank, about 50 million hectares of land were sold or under long-term lease to foreign governments and investors in 2008 and 2009 alone and according to Land Matrix, an online public database of large-scale land deals, 227 million hectares were involved in this global farmland grab.

That is more than 1,400 million rai of farmland, or half the land area of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

As a result of this global land grabbing, millions of poor farmers are being thrown off their land, local water sources are siphoned to feed giant agro-industries, and ecosystems are severely damaged by large-scale chemical-intensive plantations.

Among the main countries seeking farmland abroad are the Gulf States, China, South Korea and Japan. Closer to home are Singapore and Malaysia. For example, Kuwait is reportedly investing US$20 million to irrigate 4,500 hectares in Laos to produce rice for export to Kuwait.

While the buying up of paddy fields in Thailand has yet to be exposed, many scenic areas in resort towns are now in the hands of foreign real estate businesses.

For years, mountains in the North have been turned into chemical-intensive orange plantations by Chinese money and corn plantations by contract farm giants.

Meanwhile, forest dwellers are kicked off their ancestral land for forest officials' carbon credit money. Old communities are also evicted from the forests to make way for timber and oil palm plantations.

So concerns about massive land grabbing really have nothing to do with xenophobia.

They stem from a desire to hold the government accountable when the drive to make Thailand the so-called ‘Kitchen of the World’ ends up destroying local ecological systems, small farmers' livelihoods, and the country’s own food security.

Why don’t we just wait and see what this proposed legislation is really all about before we start to throw our toys out of our prams and indulge in unnecessary and unjustified name calling at our Thai hosts?

Excellent and in my humble opinion accurate post

[Unkomoncents]

No use trying to apply logic in anything that the Thai government does when it comes to foreigners, their xenophobic ways will never change.

And foreigners who does not know anything about anything, and who always just want to complain about thai culture and thai politics will never change either...

Nope, it's mostly Thais who don't know anything about anything. Find me another country where the majority cannot find their own location on a map or globe. It's easy to complain about Thai culture and politics; they are both so obviously backwards that it's very easy to see why Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are developed and Thailand (despite more resources and less hardship) is still a third-world scamfest.

[bangon04]

Foreigners are permitted to buy land in industrial estates because they generate income and employment.

We're nothing but walking ATMs to these people.

Using this logic they should allow foreigners to own land in little villages all over Isaan, because they are sometimes the main employer....

[lensta]

IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent.

With a good lawyer, you can for sure have 50% and even 100% (if you are not married for long time).

Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife...

I didn't know that ! Good to know, thank you !

This is true, that is why you must make sure that your wife has a will leaving the property to you.

And then you have to sell it immediately . . . within 30 days?

No, you have 1 year to sell it

[TommoPhysicist]

If I a, not misunderstood, on the passing of a Thai spouse, the ownerahip of the property then lies with the foreign husband, for which he has a fixed periodmof time to sell the property. This often means Thais buying it off what they know to be a Farang looking to sell in a hurry, so the Thai buyer often gets very a very good purchase price.

Without a will it gets shared between family and husband.

If a will leaves it all to the husband, he legally has 1 year to sell, but they don't appear to (often) check up that you have sold it, and if you haven't they write and give you another 3 months.

Edited June 29, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[dighambara]

Many excellent points...

However, I suspect it boils down to wealthy Thais who don't want money poor, but land rich Thais to become wealthy by selling land

[Tatsujin]

No, you have 1 year to sell it

You are right . . . but it says "up to 1 year" . . .

Foreign land ownership by succession

Section 93 of the Land Code Act: "A foreigner who acquires land by inheritance as statutory heir can have an ownership in such land upon a permission of the Minister of Interior. However, the total plots of land shall not be exceeding of those specified in Section 87".

Any foreigner who is married to a Thai national is under section 1629 Civil and Commercial Code a statutory heir (i.e heirs who are so entitled by Thai law) and can apply for permission of ownership of inherited land from his Thai spouse pursuant to section 93 of the Land Code Act. Right of ownership will not be given to the foreign spouse. The over fifty year old Section 93 of the Land Code Act is written for inheritance of land by foreigners under a treaty (section 86 of the Land Code Act) and does not apply to foreigners acquiring land by inheritance from a Thai spouse. There is currently no treaty with any country allowing foreigners to own land therefore no Minister of Interior will or can give permission to any foreigner to own land in Thailand. Note that it is only since 1999 that Thai nationals married to a foreigner are legally allowed to acquire land (read up).

The answer to the question 'can a foreigner inherit land in Thailand' is yes, as a statutory heir, but he cannot register ownership of the land because he will not be given permission. Under present law he must dispose of the land within a reasonable period (meaning up to 1 year) to a Thai national. If the foreigner fails to dispose of the land the Director-General of the Land Department is authorized to dispose of the land and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes.

[siam cbr]

...and the non-rich Thais will all lap this up.

[mickdaddy63]

I have an opportunity to purchase a piece of land in Lop Buri(in my Thai wife`s name,of course). Her father is Royal Police(nearly retired) and i can probably get a good price on it(the more whiskey i give,the lower the price).But i`m starting to think,why bother? Eventually,it seems like the Thai govt. will find a way to screw me out of it. I think i`ll look to spend my money somewhere else.

[KhunMichael]

Its funny , in my country Thais can buy land (I know some who did) maybe its time to do the same to them as they do to foreigners here, I will call for a campaign in my country against Thais who buy properties. It would be so much better and easier to close the country like north korea. So , we pay taxes , we consume but .... Start to become too restrictive. Pay and spend money but shut up ... is that the new Amazing Thailand campaign ?

No Laurent, it's not a new campaign.... it has ever been like that.

[MAJIC]

I've been listening to the TV Lawyers on here for years,who were smugly telling us: that they had their investments tied up in the company name,and could not be got at by anyone.

Unfortunately,they didn't understand that laws and Goalposts could be shifted at anytime,only owning 49% should have told the experts on company law something.

[angsta]

Time to move. I hear Cambodia is nice.

Cambodia is full, I mean awful.

The last thing they need/want is more Thai ex-pats. No 7-eleven, no Tesco Lotus, no Big-C, real land grabs...

[Arkady]

Sounds good to me. Sure won't affect the average expat except with a wife he may be able to get a longer lease on a home.

As far as business men go well I think they are perfectly capable of going to another country where they can continue business as they have been doing. For the small Businessmen such as a bar or restaurant owner. It should be no problem. As long as they are being transparent about it. Like if the property is in their wife's name be a wife they are living with not some one they met two years ago and haven't seen since.

There was no mention of property owned by Thai wives of foreigners this time around but this was mentioned a couple of years ago when the agricultural ministry was supposed to be drafting some legislation to prevent the alleged grabbing of agricultural land by foreigners. The legislation seemed to die a death under the Abhisit government and has not yet resurfaced. Perhaps it was not helped by the DSI's failure to find any cases of foreigners grabbing agricultural land in a two year investigation.

Nevertheless there is no guarantee that they will never attempt to go after foreigners giving money to Thai wives to buy land. The Land Code is very broad here. It could be interpreted to mean that a Thai wife is a nominee in such a case and indeed was interpreted like this until 1999. The change allowing foreigners to make a declaration of no financial interest in the wife's land was only a ministerial regulation that can easily be repealed by the minister of the interior with no need for parliamentary involvement. At any rate it is quite clear that any one who gave money to a Thai partner, whether legally married or not, to buy land without making the declaration is in violation of the Land Code. It is also a moot point that the declaration could be held to be false, since the wording requires the wife to declare that she is using her own money.

Personally I think that going after Thai spouses like this would be in violation of the Civil and Commercial Code approach to conjugal property but that doesn't mean that some grandstanding arsehol_e won't try it.