Commune Near Chiang Mai

[TantraMantra]

Having lived in a well functioning commune in California in the late 60's-early 70's, I'd ask how you would deal with a founding member who turns into the focal point of contention for most of the other members. There was one couple in our commune that caused massive discomfort and disharmony throughout the group, and refused to leave when all the other members requested them to do so. An attempt at 'shunning' just created more bad vibes...

Well I guess you could always spray for bed bugs....

He makes a good point.This is a typical problem with communities...If you're part of a commune type system

there are shared duties. Someone has to manage cooking, cleaning, work rotas etc. There is friction if people are considered lazy or not participating enough. Money is the biggest bone of contention. Who pays for things. Food, materials, etc. .

Older people want a peaceful life without being told what to do... The resort type business model with employed staff sounds better.

I just got your joke about spraying for bed bugs. That is black humour at it it's darkest.

BTW I got this message from the video link you put...

Our show unit, which is a one bedroom, one living room, bathroom, kitchen

and terrace house and doubles as our office has roughly 85m2. You will find

photos on the right side of our home page at

www.chiangmailifeconstruction.com as well as in other places on our website

and there is a video about its construction on the homepage as well.

This one goes for THB 1.2 mio if it is in our vicinity. Transport, traveling

and lodging for workers are one of our highest costs, therefore the location

will change the cost accordingly.

Hope that helps.

Edited July 14, 2012 by TantraMantra

[hellodolly]

Having lived in a well functioning commune in California in the late 60's-early 70's, I'd ask how you would deal with a founding member who turns into the focal point of contention for most of the other members. There was one couple in our commune that caused massive discomfort and disharmony throughout the group, and refused to leave when all the other members requested them to do so. An attempt at 'shunning' just created more bad vibes...

Well I guess you could always spray for bed bugs....

He makes a good point.This is a typical problem with communities...If you're part of a commune type system

there are shared duties. Someone has to manage cooking, cleaning, work rotas etc. There is friction if people are considered lazy or not participating enough. Money is the biggest bone of contention. Who pays for things. Food, materials, etc. .

Older people want a peaceful life without being told what to do... The resort type business model with employed staff sounds better.

I just got your joke about spraying for bed bugs. That is black humour at it it's darkest.

BTW I got this message from the video link you put...

Our show unit, which is a one bedroom, one living room, bathroom, kitchen

and terrace house and doubles as our office has roughly 85m2. You will find

photos on the right side of our home page at

www.chiangmailifeconstruction.com as well as in other places on our website

and there is a video about its construction on the homepage as well.

This one goes for THB 1.2 mio if it is in our vicinity. Transport, traveling

and lodging for workers are one of our highest costs, therefore the location

will change the cost accordingly.

Hope that helps.

Great cite. Lots of different ideas there. Was considering going out to see all their samples. Amazing what they can do with natural products. All though I see this as a pricy alternative to the OP 70,000 baht. But I do believe there would be a lot of cheap options. Sounds like you can sit down with them and design your own home.

They also had options for waste management which would most defiantly be important. The days of just burning things up are gone.

I saw a special once on china. They had developed a system of turning most all waste matter into energy. It was about $350 per home and produced more energy than one home would need. One guy with a dairy farm got enough electricity to run a brewery.

[Grafted]

One financing option.

This is based on the likelihood that no-one but me is gonna shell out to acquire land and build facilities for a group that may or may not eventuate. I’d like to share the load, in fact I’d like someone else to do the whole thing as the following scenario suits me just fine.

Also based on slowly increasing the numbers of residents up to say 35 private houses

Instigator buys the 30year x 3 lease. and builds a community structure and 2 or 3 their own style homes. This is considered their deposit.

After 1 free day and some limited rent time (maybe 1 -2 months) approved joiners sign on and ante up 75% refundable deposit- maybe 300,000b

The deposits may be used for infrastructureare (Draw down and pay back arrangement)

3. Joiners can build anything they like but not anywhere they like, Diversity adds interest.

4. Usage of land and facilities fee (TAX) is based on the floor area of a dwelling. (2 story = 2 times 1^st level of course)

Tax rate scaled from 10 baht / metre / month initially. Tax rate may vary. It is used over 90 years to bring deposit scheme into order. This ensures everyone gets their deposit back. Initial members clearly have fewer facilities than those joining later, so a variation to the scheme may apply, eg: First 3 years tax holiday, or permanent 30% discount on tax rate for first 7 members etc

4. Have rights to their own house area, pay own costs, and contribution to group costs.

5. All members required to serve time on Rotating Management Group ( of say 4)for(say) 1 month at a time. No Management group to consist of more than 2 of the same members within in 1 year. Instigator has permanent membership of management group and casting vote on all matters. All management meetings to be witnessed by 2 non management members and records / recordings kept.If 50 % of members disapprove a decision it is vetoed. SO for example management can’t approve the construction of a Taj Mahal unless 50% or more of members want it.

6. Member may leave any time. Member leaving and replacement member reach a private agreement on the house. The group is only concerned with the refundable deposit. Deposit refunded when resident locates someone to take up their interest. Group can do that job but will charge a fee of 20%. If replacement cannot be found within a year then 50% is refunded and the rest is refunded when someone is eventually found.

Instigator deposit is repaid 2 times deposit value if leaving (or expelled) during the first 5 years and an addition 5% for each year thereafter. This represents reward for risk and management responsibility. Effectively Group Deposits are used to pay out the instigator. Initial constitution is declared void and group can then rewrite the constitution to suit then current objectives. The group must then be incorporated or an appointed person then becomes the effective owner of the lease which is fully transferable to any natural person or legal entity.

7. Replacement members to also pay deposit which may rise as facilities are added. Note that revolving deposits means there will always be adequate funds to pay out members leaving until the 90 year expiry of the lease. By that time taxes paid and receipts generated through rent etc must be sufficient to pay out the then members.

8. It is not a work camp. (Hah, bet you didn’t think about that) There is No REQUIREMENT to do anything more than keep your space looking good. Thai people will always be the WORKERS. Member’s involvement is voluntary. We do what we want to do.

9. Some way of valuing members in deed and in kind contributions, may be established.

10. If some member is causing problems they will receive 2 warnings before an expulsion order. Warnings are in writing and signed off, Warnings must be at least 30 days apart allowing time for member to cease troublesome behaviour. 4 warnings in total for any member means compulsory member vote on expulsion.. Expulsion effected by 50% or more of members vote, Evictee has 30 days to exit before being forcibly evicted and possessions put in storage at evictees expense (deducted from deposit. 50% of deposit immediately refunded on voluntary exit. Remaining 50 % when replacement member is found. Management group is authorised to employ THUGS.

Instigator can also be expelled – no special rights in this regard!

11. If member is planning to be away for more than 2 weeks or is away for this time, their house can be rented, Member receives 50% of rent. Renters to be paying for daily or weekly maid service to ensure the property is looked after. Member continues to receive 50% rent up to 3 years after they leave if a replacement member cannot be found. Thereafter 100% of rent goes to the maintenance of the property so it remains suitable for rental, and to the group treasury

So US$10,000 gets you access to a great place to live and to build whatever you like, and a rural resort lifestyle. The smartest minds on ThaiVisa have not even tried to contest my assertion that you can build a very comfortable, modest living space for 2 for around $70,000. That's way under $3000. You can sell the house you build for a profit, and you get back your deposit. Yes you contribute to costs, and you pay a “land tax” these are the same as your own costs anywhere. You do not pay rent on your house! As you'd gather I prefer lower cost options provided they meet functional requirements. The building size tax advantages those that do not take a big footprint (that has to be fair). It kind of means that the rich subsidises the poor, Tax will vary over the 90 year term of the leaseholding. Initially it will be lower, as the value of the place rises tax may rise. The purpose is not to advantage anyone just to ensure there is money for member voted improvements and to repay deposits.

I think its hard not to like! Tell me what you think

[FolkGuitar]

10. If some member is causing problems they will receive 2 warnings before an expulsion order. Warnings are in writing and signed off, Warnings must be at least 30 days apart allowing time for member to cease troublesome behaviour. 4 warnings in total for any member means compulsory member vote on expulsion.. Expulsion effected by 50% or more of members vote, Evictee has 30 days to exit before being forcibly evicted and possessions put in storage at evictees expense (deducted from deposit. 50% of deposit immediately refunded on voluntary exit. Remaining 50 % when replacement member is found. Management group is authorised to employ THUGS.

Instigator can also be expelled – no special rights in this regard!

Unfortunately, the person/persons you are trying to expel has rights under law. Unless you are the owner, either private or corporate, of the lands, you don't have the legal right to evict, unless all parties are co-joined by contract stipulating such action upon acceptance to the group. As for the use of THUGS, I really want to believe you are joking...

The majority of communes fail because of inability of its members to agree over the course of time. The concept of "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine" often changes to "What's yours is mine because I don't feel like doing anything to earn more myself." Having one room mate eat anything that's in the fridge multiplied by a bunch of people can drive someone nuts. While communal living is wonderful when it works, it can turn into a real horror show when it doesn't, as attested by so many failed communes in the '60's and '70's. I wish you the best of luck with yours.

Edited July 15, 2012 by FolkGuitar

[sbk]

Getting pretty close to advertising with your last post there Grafted.

[hellodolly]

Should require 60% for eviction. or at least 55%.

[Grafted]

EDITING MISTAKE - apologies

Instigator buys the 30year x 3 lease. and builds a community structure and 2 or 3 their own style homes. This is considered their deposit.

After 1 free day and some limited rent time (maybe 1 -2 months) approved joiners sign on and ante up 75% refundable deposit- maybe 300,00

Sorry I must not have saved the last bit of editing and thus copied in an earlier draft idea. Under the proposal DEPOSIT ought to be 100% refundable as is referenced later in the post.

Clearly there would need to be a sign on process. A constitution applicable to all, including the Instigator, becomes the law to which parties are co-joined. Thanks to Folk Guitar for his legal expertise here.

If you have a law and can't enforce it, its no law. One would hope that there would be no reason for anyone to be expelled, and year the majority could be any sensible percentage.

Not all comments are worthy of refutation!

Comments on the general suitability would be great. Also if there are any Instigator's out there, now would be a great time to raise your hand!

[TantraMantra]

10. If some member is causing problems they will receive 2 warnings before an expulsion order. Warnings are in writing and signed off, Warnings must be at least 30 days apart allowing time for member to cease troublesome behaviour. 4 warnings in total for any member means compulsory member vote on expulsion.. Expulsion effected by 50% or more of members vote, Evictee has 30 days to exit before being forcibly evicted and possessions put in storage at evictees expense (deducted from deposit. 50% of deposit immediately refunded on voluntary exit. Remaining 50 % when replacement member is found. Management group is authorised to employ THUGS.

Instigator can also be expelled – no special rights in this regard!

Unfortunately, the person/persons you are trying to expel has rights under law. Unless you are the owner, either private or corporate, of the lands, you don't have the legal right to evict, unless all parties are co-joined by contract stipulating such action upon acceptance to the group. As for the use of THUGS, I really want to believe you are joking...

The majority of communes fail because of inability of its members to agree over the course of time. The concept of "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine" often changes to "What's yours is mine because I don't feel like doing anything to earn more myself." Having one room mate eat anything that's in the fridge multiplied by a bunch of people can drive someone nuts. While communal living is wonderful when it works, it can turn into a real horror show when it doesn't, as attested by so many failed communes in the '60's and '70's. I wish you the best of luck with yours.

Certainly the evictee would have more legal rights and a court case might be needed. What happens when someone dies as older tend to do?

The use of THUGS is particularly alarming as it's an indication of a possibly ruthless character running things. And an inexperienced one at that.

So I doubt if he'll ever need to evict anyone as no none will sign up for this.

I wonder why he doesn't get his mates involved.

[simple1]

EDITING MISTAKE - apologies

Instigator buys the 30year x 3 lease. and builds a community structure and 2 or 3 their own style homes. This is considered their deposit.

After 1 free day and some limited rent time (maybe 1 -2 months) approved joiners sign on and ante up 75% refundable deposit- maybe 300,00

Sorry I must not have saved the last bit of editing and thus copied in an earlier draft idea. Under the proposal DEPOSIT ought to be 100% refundable as is referenced later in the post.

Clearly there would need to be a sign on process. A constitution applicable to all, including the Instigator, becomes the law to which parties are co-joined. Thanks to Folk Guitar for his legal expertise here.

If you have a law and can't enforce it, its no law. One would hope that there would be no reason for anyone to be expelled, and year the majority could be any sensible percentage.

Not all comments are worthy of refutation!

Comments on the general suitability would be great. Also if there are any Instigator's out there, now would be a great time to raise your hand!

30 x 3 year lease is not enforceable under current Thai law. As you know you any contract must be vetted to ensure compliance to existing Thai Law. In addition, contracts are not worth the paper they are written on, unless you have the time & money to go to Court should things go wrong. ,

[TantraMantra]

EDITING MISTAKE - apologies

Instigator buys the 30year x 3 lease. and builds a community structure and 2 or 3 their own style homes. This is considered their deposit.

After 1 free day and some limited rent time (maybe 1 -2 months) approved joiners sign on and ante up 75% refundable deposit- maybe 300,00

Sorry I must not have saved the last bit of editing and thus copied in an earlier draft idea. Under the proposal DEPOSIT ought to be 100% refundable as is referenced later in the post.

Clearly there would need to be a sign on process. A constitution applicable to all, including the Instigator, becomes the law to which parties are co-joined. Thanks to Folk Guitar for his legal expertise here.

If you have a law and can't enforce it, its no law. One would hope that there would be no reason for anyone to be expelled, and year the majority could be any sensible percentage.

Not all comments are worthy of refutation!

Comments on the general suitability would be great. Also if there are any Instigator's out there, now would be a great time to raise your hand!

Anyone interested would obviously need to have a good lawyer look at this but meanwhile.

1. How much does it cost to buy 30 yr lease?

2. Re: The $3,000 structure. Have you found any model in this price range or can you give some design and breakdown of costs.

3. What happens when one of your older members dies?

4.You said nothing illegal would take place, but then say you would use THUGS to deal with unwanted members.

Is this legal? Would members then need to worry about retaliation from the same or other mercenary, paid for, violent THUGS ?

5. Is this a mainly personal project? Sounds like you live a bit far from the action and other Farang. It's lonely out there.

You'd like to create a small community of mates to hang out with. A mini bar area with daytime manly. bonding activities.

Women to cook. Harleys to fix, Ducks to stuff, wine to make, roofs to fix and a pond to fish in. There's nothing wrong with that but so far, I think you make it sound less and less attractive.

6. Will you be in charge? Someone always needs to be. Usually these projects like said by Folkguitar, fail because people don't get on and mostly not with the leader. Plenty of mild mannered commune leaders turn into Stalin.

I have lots more questions but I'll save them.

I still wish you luck but I think you put your foot in it from the start, with words like, Commune, Lost Souls, Old Farts and now..THUGS. You really need to think before you write.

[BlackArtemis]

Wouldn't be interested in living there, but if you managed to find a legal way to sell organic fruits and veggies and more importantly, grass fed / free range meat, I would most certainly buy it.

[hellodolly]

EDITING MISTAKE - apologies

Instigator buys the 30year x 3 lease. and builds a community structure and 2 or 3 their own style homes. This is considered their deposit.

After 1 free day and some limited rent time (maybe 1 -2 months) approved joiners sign on and ante up 75% refundable deposit- maybe 300,00

Sorry I must not have saved the last bit of editing and thus copied in an earlier draft idea. Under the proposal DEPOSIT ought to be 100% refundable as is referenced later in the post.

Clearly there would need to be a sign on process. A constitution applicable to all, including the Instigator, becomes the law to which parties are co-joined. Thanks to Folk Guitar for his legal expertise here.

If you have a law and can't enforce it, its no law. One would hope that there would be no reason for anyone to be expelled, and year the majority could be any sensible percentage.

Not all comments are worthy of refutation!

Comments on the general suitability would be great. Also if there are any Instigator's out there, now would be a great time to raise your hand!

Anyone interested would obviously need to have a good lawyer look at this but meanwhile.

1. How much does it cost to buy 30 yr lease?

2. Re: The $3,000 structure. Have you found any model in this price range or can you give some design and breakdown of costs.

3. What happens when one of your older members dies?

4.You said nothing illegal would take place, but then say you would use THUGS to deal with unwanted members.

Is this legal? Would members then need to worry about retaliation from the same or other mercenary, paid for, violent THUGS ?

5. Is this a mainly personal project? Sounds like you live a bit far from the action and other Farang. It's lonely out there.

You'd like to create a small community of mates to hang out with. A mini bar area with daytime manly. bonding activities.

Women to cook. Harleys to fix, Ducks to stuff, wine to make, roofs to fix and a pond to fish in. There's nothing wrong with that but so far, I think you make it sound less and less attractive.

6. Will you be in charge? Someone always needs to be. Usually these projects like said by Folkguitar, fail because people don't get on and mostly not with the leader. Plenty of mild mannered commune leaders turn into Stalin.

I have lots more questions but I'll save them.

I still wish you luck but I think you put your foot in it from the start, with words like, Commune, Lost Souls, Old Farts and now..THUGS. You really need to think before you write.

LOL Thugs could mean get police to evict them.

Not sure if there is a difference.

Actually in one of the previous posts Grafted had mentioned he had several PMs perhaps if they all got together and came up with a frame work to work with in. There is no way to get around it they would need some type of leadership. Also a way to deal with malcontents who are constantly being a bother to there fellow neighbors. It would be one thing to be discontent but when you continually push itm on others who are not interested that would be another thing.

Edited July 15, 2012 by hellodolly

[WinnieTheKhwai]

LOL Thugs could mean get police to evict them.

Not sure if there is a difference.

Beat me to it; was going to say exactly the same thing.

That said, I think the whole eviction thing is a non-starter. I think it will work best when it resembles a housing development as closely as possible, and up until the last handful of posts it seemed to be going in that direction, not making work mandatory, and allowing people to build whatever they like, and paying a fee per square meter; commercial housing developments work in exactly the same way.

But why bother evicting people; let them own their piece of it; the only thing you can do is deny people access to shared facilities.

Which brings me to a related question: What would a person have to do (or fail to do) to warrant eviction? I can only think of not paying the agreed fees, and then it makes sense to just deny access to the shared facilities as a sanction. Or are there other scenarios?

[hellodolly]

LOL Thugs could mean get police to evict them.

Not sure if there is a difference.

Beat me to it; was going to say exactly the same thing.

That said, I think the whole eviction thing is a non-starter. I think it will work best when it resembles a housing development as closely as possible, and up until the last handful of posts it seemed to be going in that direction, not making work mandatory, and allowing people to build whatever they like, and paying a fee per square meter; commercial housing developments work in exactly the same way.

But why bother evicting people; let them own their piece of it; the only thing you can do is deny people access to shared facilities.

Which brings me to a related question: What would a person have to do (or fail to do) to warrant eviction? I can only think of not paying the agreed fees, and then it makes sense to just deny access to the shared facilities as a sanction. Or are there other scenarios?

Possible other things to be considered is use of the undeveloped and or are they going to develop it all? It is my opinion that they have so many choices that it is time that the choices be narrowed down.

Unfortunately all the choices were very good choices but each one would possibly change the type of person interested. I believe any one of the choices would work but they might have to go to a bigger audience than Chiang Mai.

I am not sure but I believe the land has already been leased by grafted and it would rely a lot on what he wants to do with it.

[Grafted]

Re Hello Dolly ... Choices and Land Lease etc

Choices: Why prescribe? Do you really want me to be Adolf Grafted Hitler? Check the 5 motivations I published .. very humbly, admitting my frailty and suggesting others might like to have a say. I never mentioned anything about work - why WORK, active pursuits yes, but work? I have chucked a heap of confetti in the air, did any of it sound like I prescribed anything, grow a few vegies, keep a few chooks, just things many of us have done before and enjoyed. VMan suggested nudity, why not allow it on a controlled basis - time and place - so its not offensive. My reading of your words suggests that being inclusive is a problem.

I credit you with the intelligence to read and understand my laboriously written posts which were mostly serious. The word THUGS was in fact capitalised intending to suggest a mischievous humour - a closer reading shows the DRAFT idea (yeah not etched in stone) called for a releasing of 50% of an evictees deposit on their exit - an advantage denied to others! And anyway, even though we are all too old to be capable of doing anything you do need some mechanism for exiting the troublesome. Someone could go mental (will for sure if I keep sticking my neck out on TV!) and start walking around with a carving knife, I dunno any thing MIGHT happen, probably we'll just get old and rot!

Of the things said - maybe 35 members, fee arrangement based on size of personal space built- clearly advantaging smaller. I suggest they would all have to be mansions to effectively cover 30 Rai. There's enough space on that sized plot to a do a bit of a variety things. Some may continue, some may be shortlived - again why prescribe?

How many sensible comments did you see about the 70k baht building. None. Some not too brights focussed on the loo - WOW, that is an earth shattering bit of house design. Again, a preference NOT a prescribed. Others commented they'd like a hot shower. Mmm ... no mention of cold showers only in anything I wrote .... perhaps they should be taking one. A few sounded like they may be interested in the detail but, lacking in manners, failed to even acknowledge it.

I gave a reasoned Option for financing the place. Like the house stuff, nobody has faulted the important components, and just as similarly, no one has commended any part of it.

Someone wanted to know about a member dying ... what normally happens to someone's property when they die. Why would anything different occur. It is after all remarkable similar to leaving.

Do I sound cynical - even caustic. I feel it and I don't like feeling this way. I regret to say that of the 2000 plus people that have viewed this thread there have been a handful of people who have perceived my sincere humility and belief in the better nature of my fellow man. Thanks Chris, Bob, Roger and others I'm forgetting.

Guys, we should be ashamed of our lack of endeavour and willingness to settle for a lesser life. Thai Visa is to be thanked for presenting a forum for ideas, WOW. How powerful! Let's use this great resource to advantage ourselves and others and to support real discussion and the sharing of ideas, inspiration, and knowledge.

[TantraMantra]

LOL Thugs could mean get police to evict them.

Not sure if there is a difference.

Beat me to it; was going to say exactly the same thing.

That said, I think the whole eviction thing is a non-starter. I think it will work best when it resembles a housing development as closely as possible, and up until the last handful of posts it seemed to be going in that direction, not making work mandatory, and allowing people to build whatever they like, and paying a fee per square meter; commercial housing developments work in exactly the same way.

But why bother evicting people; let them own their piece of it; the only thing you can do is deny people access to shared facilities.

Which brings me to a related question: What would a person have to do (or fail to do) to warrant eviction? I can only think of not paying the agreed fees, and then it makes sense to just deny access to the shared facilities as a sanction. Or are there other scenarios?

Wise words again Winnie and Dolly.......but

I've know of large commune type organisation landlords in India using THUGS/POLICE to evict tenants without using the normal courts and it's very ugly and violent. Even the suggestion that thugs would ever be involved should be a warning. Thugs work for the highest payer not for who is right.

It's true what you say WTK...

When you call it a commune it implies closeness and sharing of work, food production, resources and ideology, different rules are needed. Tenants have fewer rights or sense of security. Very often money is a problem. Or just members falling out with each other or the management.

The OP described a scenario with very small dwellings built close together, a FREE restaurant (obviously nothing is free) .Women cooking to impress the men.who are busy doing manly chores. and a sense of whether by obligation or camaraderie to be expected to chip in and help out. Which sounds really nice but rarely works other than in non-materialistic, spiritual communities or ashrams.

When it's called a community of independent home owners the rules are more simple. Anti social behaviour is taboo. Noise pollution, harassing neighbours, illegal activities, opening a brothel are the issues. The same laws that govern any moo baan. Plus there is far more security and no one could be evicted without a court case.

I hope the OP is not put off by comments which are not as positive as he expected. It's best to get all the opinions aired and get a clear and realistic picture of what could be done after all.

I find this one of the most interesting posts on TV. Better than... where in CM can I get a pink, rhinestone collar for my puppy or where's the cheapest place to buy sausages??

Edited July 15, 2012 by TantraMantra

[TantraMantra]

Do I sound cynical - even caustic. I feel it and I don't like feeling this way. I regret to say that of the 2000 plus people that have viewed this thread there have been a handful of people who have perceived my sincere humility and belief in the better nature of my fellow man. Thanks Chris, Bob, Roger and others I'm forgetting.

Guys, we should be ashamed of our lack of endeavour and willingness to settle for a lesser life. Thai Visa is to be thanked for presenting a forum for ideas, WOW. How powerful! Let's use this great resource to advantage ourselves and others and to support real discussion and the sharing of ideas, inspiration, and knowledge.

You are sounding a bit Patronising. I don't think any of us need to feel ashamed. Just because we haven't all jumped on your idea as the perfect way to live our lives doesn't mean we have a lesser life. My life is really interesting actually.

Yes 2,000 TV members read your post and over 100 replied. Try to appreciate those who disagree or give other opinions as well. It will all help you make decisions.

I for one, do think your intentions are sincere but you need to do more research and maybe get some experience by visiting similar communities. Can you name even one similar community that you'd like yours to be like?

oops! another faux pas....

''And anyway, even though we are all too old to be capable of doing anything you do need some mechanism for exiting the troublesome. Someone could go mental (will for sure if I keep sticking my neck out on TV!) and start walking around with a carving knife, I dunno any thing MIGHT happen, probably we'll just get old and rot! ''

I know, your having a go at humour again. Maybe Stand up is more your forte.

Edited July 15, 2012 by TantraMantra

[TantraMantra]

Sorry but I wish to make another comment. I don't want to make it appear I'm hogging the post. I'm in other Time zones these days London or Istanbul so I'm awake. Back to CM in September.

I need to object on behalf of TV members. You received 107 replies to this post. Probably 40 TV members made the effort to write a reply.

You say ''Thanks Chris, Bob, Roger and others I'm forgetting''

I would hope that intelligent people like WTK, Hellodolly, PooMaiDai, Vacation. Folkguitar..and many others who shared their research and replied you at length are

Not all The Forgotten. Or the 2,203 who read your post.

You asked for discussion, input, knowledge, experience, debate etc..

Do you then only accept what sounds agreeable to you?

I have to say that in general, Charismatic men who start these projects are like this. They listen to Yes men and exclude everyone else. Maybe it's only Chris, Bob, Roger who agree with you.

Did they agree to sign up?

Again I must say I have experience. I was one of a committee of 7 that organised and raised funds and business projects for 7 large communities in Europe. I was also an International trouble shooter constantly travelling to resolve problems in Europe, Israel, Kenya and Asia. Sometimes USA as well.

Most often problems were resolved by removing people to elsewhere or changing the management. Your project is tiny and different but I see the same problems arising.

Unless as WTK and others suggest it's a straight forward ownership scheme.

Why not give, even a working title to your project now. I can see this post going on a long time.

It's worth it.

Now I work as an artist, consultant and dealer. It's a much more peaceful life.

Edited July 15, 2012 by TantraMantra

[Grafted]

Thanks TMantra

Does anyone think that a sub rental agreement for the particular land each members building occupies would constitute a "legal ownership" right for members.

Just as the 30 yr lease (x 3) is a one off payment the sub lease could be the same such that the member has no expectation of "refund of deposit" and the whole burden of "re-sale / re-assignment" of sub lease would fall to the member or their heirs.

TM you certainly have an interesting black ground - Cons. artist, and fundraiser, Perhaps you yourself have at various times been a member of an autocratically run institution offering small alternative construction accommodation in quite close contact with fellow members???

[hml367]

Try doing an internet search for, "Baan Thai Project", and/or, "The Panya Project".

MSPain

[FolkGuitar]

Which brings me to a related question: What would a person have to do (or fail to do) to warrant eviction? I can only think of not paying the agreed fees, and then it makes sense to just deny access to the shared facilities as a sanction. Or are there other scenarios?

Having lived on a commune for several years, and visited quite a few others at that time so we could learn what worked and what didn't. I'd recommend you doing the same before investing money. Re-inventing the wheel may be an interesting exercise but it's not what you want to be doing at 3AM when one of your group decides to practice his bagpipe, or another decides to raise pigs in his front yard... I think it would be a great location for my heavy metal band to rehearse... And who doesn't like the smell of butchering hogs, right?

Self-sufficiency requires good health. You can't plow the North 40 if you have a bad back or are too old to drive the mule. When we were in our 20's, climbing up on the roof to lay tar paper wasn't such an issue. In our 60's-70's it becomes one. Tending a kitchen garden of 5X5 gets to be 'labor' when you get older. Trying to raise your own food can become really hard work, especially for a retired bank clerk or software programer. Something to try once...

The idea of a commune is great... No question about that. It was 'tribal' and 'guaranteed social contact.' And many would love to live in such an idyllic setting. But few realize just how much hard work is actually involved. Unless, of course, you are creating a retirement resort with paid staff. But then it's not a commune, is it?

[TantraMantra]

Thanks TMantra

Does anyone think that a sub rental agreement for the particular land each members building occupies would constitute a "legal ownership" right for members.

Just as the 30 yr lease (x 3) is a one off payment the sub lease could be the same such that the member has no expectation of "refund of deposit" and the whole burden of "re-sale / re-assignment" of sub lease would fall to the member or their heirs.

TM you certainly have an interesting black ground - Cons. artist, and fundraiser, Perhaps you yourself have at various times been a member of an autocratically run institution offering small alternative construction accommodation in quite close contact with fellow members???

You're and expert at putting your foot in your mouth. Shooting the messenger is one way of gathering information.

Maybe you should tell us a bit about your background. Just how often you have employed THUGS to achieve your goals.

I have nothing to hide as I'm not trying to raise money from TV members with dubious schemes, You're the one who has to convince people and so far your're doing a dreadful job. Are Chris, Bob, and Roger...Real or only in your dreams?

Any one interested should first do a background check on you. Of course they will I hope.

There are plenty of con artists trying to raise money for Dodgy projects in Thailand so we must be extra vigilant..

Otherwise if you read my replies, you'll see I was trying to help on a topic I know about....

Yes you do come across as a potential dictator...I've seen it before....Buyer beware.

There are none so Blind as those who do not want to see.

[simple1]

Thanks TMantra

Does anyone think that a sub rental agreement for the particular land each members building occupies would constitute a "legal ownership" right for members.

Just as the 30 yr lease (x 3) is a one off payment the sub lease could be the same such that the member has no expectation of "refund of deposit" and the whole burden of "re-sale / re-assignment" of sub lease would fall to the member or their heirs.

TM you certainly have an interesting black ground - Cons. artist, and fundraiser, Perhaps you yourself have at various times been a member of an autocratically run institution offering small alternative construction accommodation in quite close contact with fellow members???

As previously mentioned, be aware that a "30 yr lease (x 3)" is not available under Thai law. May be to early in your planning, but as other posts have mentioned you need to get legal advice on lease/financial options for people who are interested in your community. Otherwise under scrutiny by interested parties your plans could evaporate very quickly.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Guys, we should be ashamed of our lack of endeavour and willingness to settle for a lesser life. Thai Visa is to be thanked for presenting a forum for ideas, WOW. How powerful! Let's use this great resource to advantage ourselves and others and to support real discussion and the sharing of ideas, inspiration, and knowledge.

I've been a member of this forum for a while, and I can honestly say that the discussion has been incredibly fruitful and open by the usual standards. It is very common to have a large number of page reads (I think also reads by non-members could be included) and smaller number of postings. And the actual discussion has for sure been one of the better ones; you only need to look at other topics that quickly end in silly bickering, even when the topic is 'a sandwich'. This topic is for sure more contentious, it represents an alternative way to live one's whole life / retirement. Pretty much everyone has behaved very well, amazingly well, actually. A bit of misunderstanding or a jab here and there is par for the course.

Crucially, running a commune (or running *anything*) for retired expats is a bit like herding cats; you need thick skin and a lot of patience; I'm seeing less of that as the topic progresses, but it remains a highly interesting discussion.

Edited July 16, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[TantraMantra]

Guys, we should be ashamed of our lack of endeavour and willingness to settle for a lesser life. Thai Visa is to be thanked for presenting a forum for ideas, WOW. How powerful! Let's use this great resource to advantage ourselves and others and to support real discussion and the sharing of ideas, inspiration, and knowledge.

I've been a member of this forum for a while, and I can honestly say that the discussion has been incredibly fruitful and open by the usual standards. It is very common to have a large number of page reads (I think also reads by non-members could be included) and smaller number of postings. And the actual discussion has for sure been one of the better ones; you only need to look at other topics that quickly end in silly bickering, even when the topic is 'a sandwich'. This topic is for sure more contentious, it represents an alternative way to live one's whole life / retirement. Pretty much everyone has behaved very well, amazingly well, actually. A bit of misunderstanding or a jab here and there is par for the course.

Crucially, running a commune (or running *anything*) for retired expats is a bit like herding cats; you need thick skin and a lot of patience; I'm seeing less of that as the topic progresses, but it remains a highly interesting discussion.

Does nothing ruffle your feathers Winnie.? What makes you so diplomatic? It's great but how do you do it?

Please give us one line to explain it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Guys, we should be ashamed of our lack of endeavour and willingness to settle for a lesser life. Thai Visa is to be thanked for presenting a forum for ideas, WOW. How powerful! Let's use this great resource to advantage ourselves and others and to support real discussion and the sharing of ideas, inspiration, and knowledge.

I've been a member of this forum for a while, and I can honestly say that the discussion has been incredibly fruitful and open by the usual standards. It is very common to have a large number of page reads (I think also reads by non-members could be included) and smaller number of postings. And the actual discussion has for sure been one of the better ones; you only need to look at other topics that quickly end in silly bickering, even when the topic is 'a sandwich'. This topic is for sure more contentious, it represents an alternative way to live one's whole life / retirement. Pretty much everyone has behaved very well, amazingly well, actually. A bit of misunderstanding or a jab here and there is par for the course.

Crucially, running a commune (or running *anything*) for retired expats is a bit like herding cats; you need thick skin and a lot of patience; I'm seeing less of that as the topic progresses, but it remains a highly interesting discussion.

Does nothing ruffle your feathers Winnie.? What makes you so diplomatic? It's great but how do you do it?

Please give us one line to explain it.

LOL.. Yes, nothing on this forum ruffles my feathers. I approach it more conceptually, as opposed to "this particular idea/venture in this particular 30 rai plot in Lampang, started/sponsored by this particular individual." I think it's interesting to explore if any alternative ways for expats to live in Thailand could work. To be honest I think that's the best approach for Grafted to take in this discussion too; a page or two ago there was somewhat of a warning by a moderator when things got too specific. I also know really well what gets topics closed and can even get people banned or holidayed. Time and again I see topics that are highly interesting on a conceptual level get closed down because of a very small number of basic infractions, in combination with some ham-fisted enforcement of the rules by somebody who's having a bad day; and with so many different people watching over the forum, there is always at least one with a bad day. For this topic, when it gets too specific it could potentially run into two forum rules, namely no advertising and no fund-raising or sourcing investments. Keeping it at a conceptual level avoids this, and keeps the topic open. One thing that Grafted did do right was not to include too many specifics on the actual location, as that will immediately make the discussion about a specific place (as in a geographical location) instead of about a place in concept. You'd immediately invite posts like "oh I'm not living there in the middle of nowhere", etc.

Perhaps I also focused too much on political/legal angles. I appreciate where Grafted is coming from, which is that when you're retirement age, it shouldn't really matter if you 'own' a particular piece of the world, as you can't take it into the grave with you anyway therefore he'd view any such discussion as beside the point, or missing the point. Though there are other reasons too to have more traditional ownership models; a healthy commune may need a good mix of people, which could also include younger people, and could (or should, ideally) include Thai people as well. Building something and then being able to leave it to your children is a big thing in Thailand. Never mind if it's primarily money that's being put into it or one's own efforts, there is a common human desire to build something that lasts. Secondly, when individual people own the part they're living on then they also have the legal responsibility for whatever happens there. Suppose someone decides to grow an illegal herb.. if that happens on your land / commune land (a "resort" in local perception) then you're dealing with more hassle than you really need. If it happens on a person's own plot then you're not responsible in any way.

Anyway, also for legal and political reasons it could be healthy to have like-minded Thais involved too. The whole concept actually has 'Sufficiency Economy' written all over it, which always makes for a nice vibe because that concept has strong support at the very top of society, even though almost nobody seems to actually practice it. At the same time the sufficiency concept has much less support in rural lampang, where it is sometimes perceived as a means to keep poor people poor, and requiring them to be happy with limited means instead of aspiring to gain the same comforts as the middle and higher classes. That's a different topic, but I think it demonstrates that there is a fine political line to follow in order to gain enough local acceptance, or support, even. Ultimately it must fit in with Thai society, anything too different means fighting battles you don't need or want.

Edited July 16, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Cheesekraft]

Wouldn't be interested in living there, but if you managed to find a legal way to sell organic fruits and veggies and more importantly, grass fed / free range meat, I would most certainly buy it.

yes please

[Grafted]

Folk Guitar wrote: Self-sufficiency requires good health. You can't plow the North 40 if you have a bad back or are too old to drive the mule

Discussion input is welcome. Knowing what the discussion has included to date helps. Sadly there has been no mention of self sufficiency, Even the idea of work has been specifically ruled out. What has been discussed includes "purposeful Activity" which can mean ANYTHING the purposer wants it to mean. And sharing active leisure, (as one person's preference for a style of living in retirement) Neither carries any connotation of work.

I chose the word Commune for a number of reasons. 1. It gets attention, 2. I actually like the idea of hanging with others, doing together and you know its dam_n hard to play 4 handed 500 on your own! That's a bit like COMMUNity. 3. Wouldn't it be nice in this place, where, as many have said, contracts are dicey and ownership is fraught, to share the costs of establishment and development.

Unfortunately many people have read the word "commune" and have had an attack of verbal diarrhea and assumed it prescribed certain old, bitter and twisted perceptions of what a commune must there fore be. If you'll go back and read the first 5 or 6 posts I wrote you'd know I was seeking input. Some People got the drift and threw in some interesting stuff. I was asked about OWNERSHIP .... about CONSTRUCTION about RULES ad naus etc. I answered with some possibilities, seldom ruling anything in or out, and then get slings and arrows for one or two words when the theme, or general ideas are largely ignored.

FC's experience on a commune would be GREAT to hear about. Strum us the tune of what you enjoyed doing there, what made it work for you to stay so long, what ideals do you have now. That would be a contribution, so far you've contributed personal attack. You can up your game I'm sure.

Being interested in this for about 7 years, I have visited several communes - only in Australia. I met some great people, Hans, in Nimbin was the friendliest dude on the planet, had so much enjoyed creating his personal space. It was a testimony to the work ethic of his heritage.

On many I visited people had 10 acres or so of their own space and there was quite a bit of bush. As I got to know most of these places I found people had little more interaction with their neighbours than you do in an isolating suburban situation. My preference is for interaction. I don't really see why anyone would want to be in a Commune and NOT commune.

I have called for discussion only. NEVER for expressions of support or given anyone any thing they could join. I'm meeting with a few dudes in Cmai soon to share a beer and a talk, but there's NOTHING on the table to talk about. The land I COULD lease is secured only by an understanding. It was something to hang a discussion on. As it turns out private communications have almost convinced me 50 mins is too far from Cmai. There are so many other land options its ridiculous.

Very early on I wrote in capital letters, its not about the Land - it is about the WILL. Are people willing to do more than cry in their bee and whinge on TV. What kind of lifestyle would interest others. WTK got the drift, and a few others.

Vacation man put in a pretty detailed idea. Great stuff! Diversity ought to be welcomed, diversity makes us stronger and the more we practise inclusive thinking the more harmonious our relationships ought to be.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

50 minutes is a lot closer than I imagined. I actually think 50 mins is quite okay; you do need a little distance to be in a tranquil space away from it all (yet not too far away to run an errand, visit a hospital, etc.) I was expecting this to be way past Lampang town, half way to Tak. But 50 minutes places it in the area in between Lamphun and Lampang. So that's just 20 minutes to shops and hospitals in the Lamphun area; pretty good.

Also if you get closer in, then the price can easily go up by a lot.

Chiang Mai town of course offers some things that could be of interest; a commune could even keep one or two apartment units available downtown for people who need/want to stay in town for whatever reason for a day or two. Cost for a couple 2500 baht / month apartment rooms (or renting a small house) downtown would add a minor cost, but offer a lot of options to people who need or want a trip into town without having to factor in an early return trip (if by public transport), or an expensive (hotel) stay.

Edited July 16, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[FolkGuitar]

FC's experience on a commune would be GREAT to hear about. Strum us the tune of what you enjoyed doing there, what made it work for you to stay so long, what ideals do you have now. That would be a contribution, so far you've contributed personal attack. You can up your game I'm sure.

I'm sorry that you interpreted what I wrote as an attack. It wasn't meant to be so. It was meant to illustrate what I saw and lived with while living in one commune that interacted with several others. As you say, your idea of what a commune is may vary from mine.

I only have limited experience, and the term 'commune' only means one thing to me; communal living and working. Once it breaks down into 'individuals' it is no longer a commune, but simply people living in close proximity to each other, interacting when ever they feel like it. In our commune we cooked and ate together (except for occasional times when more privacy was desired or needed,) we raised the children together and had our own school for them. We grew the majority of our vegetables and raised cows, pigs, and chickens. We also worked outside the commune to raise the needed cash to pay for what we couldn't grow, raise or make. Those who could fix cars (cars were a lot easier to repair in the 60's and 70's) did so, those who were handy with a saw, hammer, or welding torch spent a few hours a week renting out those skills outside the commune. We made a LOT of craft projects as a group together (macreme, candles, weavings, woodworking (lamps, mirrors, children's furniture, etc.) and sold that at county fairs and flea markets. We donated what ever percentage of money we made to the commune with no one being required a specific percentage. You kept what you thought you personally needed to keep, and gave away the rest. I don't believe anyone had a personal bank account although the commune as a whole did. If someone needed extra money for something important, it was available to them. Important did NOT mean a Louis Vuiton handbag or a case of beer. (We made our own beer and wine, but this was the 60's &70's... mostly we grew our own...)

We had private dwellings as well as communal sleeping areas if those were desired. The land we used was owned by a farm family who thought we might be the future for America and was willing to accept $1.00 a year as a lease. We had an elected board of 3 leaders who arbitrated all minor decisions and minor spending, but the entire commune would vote for final decisions for anything major. Most importantly, the entire community would vote to accept or reject new members, after the prospects spent a week with us. One negative vote was enough to rule out the new members... My wife and I arrived two years after the founding of the commune, and I have no idea how the original group was formed.

Your idea of a commune is very different from mine. I sincerely hope yours works.

Edited July 16, 2012 by FolkGuitar