Red-Shirts Have Mixed Feelings Over Constitution Court Verdict

[billd766]

No need of confusion.

Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education.

They will soon realize that the people they follow now have no use for them other than as a weapon.

Education = problem solved no more red shirts.

Unless they are corrupt and see a chance to make a illegal baht there.

Or possibly see a chance to make a lot of money just by spouting nonsense.

Are you expecting to make a lot of money then?

Artist. Do you disagree with what dolly says that a Thai with an education and no agenda will see through the Shinwatra clans deads.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

It is quite obvious the people posting on this forum who are anti red shirts have little on no education. Seems the opposite of Thai people.

So what you are saying in effect is that all the farangs whod stupid don't toe the Thaksin/PTP/Red Shirt line are ignorant and stupid.

Those like you belive every word on the other hand are very well educated and brilliant and will live forever in this land of wonder and beautyand be rich in 6 months from last July.

At least that is what Thaksin thinks and says and what the PTP does. Pity they missed out all the Red Shirts who live around here.

[MILT]

The problem with the red shirts is simple.

When the Yellow shirts were instumental in ousting the corrupt caretaker government of Thaksin Shinawatra, they came late to the table in the role of Thaksin bodyguards and showed their thuggery in places like Chiang Mai and Khon Khen.

The Yellows continued to out manoevre and out smart them during the Samak and Somchai administrations and in reality it wasn't until groups of lawmakers switched sides and tilted the balance in the house to allow for Abhisit to take the helm that they started to get their act together.

True to their earlier form, they attempted to copy what the Yellows did - but violently. This culminated in the 2010 Rajaprasong violence where their whole raison d'etre was to force a violent coup d'etat, the very thing that they stood against.

That raison d'etre morphed once again. Abhisit offered them elections and they accepted. The man from Dubai wanted blood on the streets. The reds reneged. Bloodshed was unavoidable.

In the end Abhisit gallantly and honourably gave them elections, as he had pomised to do, once the country had calmed down.

Thaksin appointed his "clone" sister. Thought to be a novice and certainly proved to be a novice, the Red Shirts occupied the role of bodyguards once more. PTP made several election promises, most of which turned out to be lies. The novice selected a cabinet based on nepotism and the repayment of favours and duly screwed up the handling of the floods. Most election promises started to disappear down the toilet and the government looked shot to bits. The reds were not happy. Thaksin had showed his hand. They were pawns. They had been used. Go back to your rice farms.

Despite all the red shirt noise about justice for the dead of Rajaprasong, the PTP had paid the families of the dead and injured and made them sign away the right to persue claims against the Thai government. They were a spent force. Paid up by tax-payers money.

Thaksin and PTP needed something to get the reds back on board. They knew that a rewrite of the constitution would bring out the yellows and they knew that of the yellows came out, the reds would focus on that. That proved to be the case. Thida and Jatuporn and Korkeaw to name but a few could smell blood. They thought they were movong to the end game. Out smarted once again. All of the noise was just another loss of face to the red shirts.

So the red shirts have played the role of Thalsin bodyguard, violent Thaksin mercenaries, cannon fodder, bodyguards to the clone, wanna be Thaksin mercenaries, and once again rebels without a cause.

So, what for them now? They have the PTP government they fought for, the dead are paid up and forgotten, the PTP promises have floated down the pipes and are adrift somewhere of the straights of Malacca and the Constitution Court delivered a verdict.

Will they go back to their farms or will Thaksin still show them that he is in charge and thay are still pawns in the game? For some of their foul-mouthed "leaders" (depite being a "pro-democractic" organisation, they never held elections to see who would lead them.) jail time beckons. Jatuporn, Korkeaw and others are due some time behind bars. Will that be the rebels new cause?

The next thrilling episode awaits.

The problem with the Democrats and their elite backers is simple.

Upon realizing their political savvy was severely lacking, compared to the slick TRT machine, an evil plan was hatched deep in the recesses of the army barracks.

How dare this man empower the people! They must happily stay in the rice fields and send us their sons and daughters in return for a pittance. How dare he continue to reduce the military budget as a percentage of GDP year after year. We want our air balloons! For how else can we maintain our pervertedly privileged positions. Hence the systematic vilification of the most successful and effective PM the country has ever experienced began. This was their only chance, as they themselves were not bereft of ideas to help the masses , but in fact selfishly unwilling to grant them. So the witch hunt began. What could they pin on this man? While all embarrassingly standing squarely in front of their own amassed wealth they collective raised their fingers and pointed. LOOK, he is doing what every other Thai businessman is doing! LOOK, he is following the advice of his tax lawyers and accountants! LOOK, he is following current tax laws when selling his own company shares! LOOK, inevitably some government decisions are inadvertently affecting his massive business interests! And then they released their big weapon, like a submarine in shallow water, LOOK he is trying to bring down the monarchy and turn this blessed kingdom into a republic!

And so it began, and to this day we are still hearing the whinging, whining losers bleat on and on about the same old fictitious fantasy as the people grow more and more tired of hearing it.

There is no next episode, just tedious reruns of the old one.

Your summery is not accurate h90. Your main argument is "What could they pin on this man (Thaskin). He followed his tax lawyers and accountants to keep is shoddy money and not the law so he would not have to pay his due taxes. Greed is where Thaskin made his fatal mistake. You keep a blind eye and tight lips to the real story as to why this happen to such a wonderful guy. He brought this upon himself. He knows he can't trust anyone and that is simply why his sister is the PM. Winning an election by vote buying and propaganda is an easy time tested way of winning an election. I have lived in Thailand many years before the Thaskin age of Thailand. We are seeing the results of the Thaskin hidden agenda being worked out. Did Thaskin do some good things for Thailand? International airport? New highways? Night Safari? Shady Burma business deals. Supporting bloodshed for his own reputation and power? Mega projects? Rice market manipulations? Debt system for farmers? Who are the benefactors of all these stimulus projects? Could be his family, friends, allies? Red shirt factions? Thaskin does not represent the poor or the majority of the people of Thailand. Thaskin represents his own personal power and interest's. In fact Thaskin is an elitist in his own right that simply could and would not be able to understand the conditions of the poor and needy and nor can his sister the PM nor any of the nepotistic Government that we see today.

[hellodolly]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.Is Thaksin the man? No.They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranksMy personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

"But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route."

Actually, he accurately accuses Abhisit of coming to power through a dishonest route. This is well documented for all to see.

Defending Thaksin is a different issue. Thaksin doesn't need defending. His record is public as well. There is plenty of abuse in his history, but the point where many get lampooned with "Thaksin supporter" is when they acknowledge that his every act was not necessarily "evil". His government did have policies which were popular and effective as well. Not everyone agrees on each and every policy, but most people, especially Thais, can find at least one or two things that they liked about the Thaksin government. Most can also find *at least* one or two things that they didn't like about the Thaksin government.

Talk is cheap. If it is documented then it must have been illegal. All the documentation I know of says Abhist received the majority of the votes needed to become PM. Just because you and bird poo Didn't like him you had to make up stories about him. Well I didn't like him then or now but he was and still is the best man for the job. Do you actually think it would have been the golden age in Thailand if Thaksin had been PM with all the resistance against him that Abhist had and that includes the armed peaceful demonstrators who accepted a deal to end the conflict only to have it vetoed by the paymaster.

You people are good at pointing fingers at him and ignoring the corruption he inherited and some of them were votes needed to make it possible for him to become elected. With Thaksin no longer controlling things the pigs who had been standing at the trough behind him went wild. And left Abhist out there to take the blame.

Tell me one thing what other current or past PM has given orders to his private army to invade a hospital.

Yes if one looks for it they can find some good points for Thaksin. He brought in water management experts from Isrialle to look over the situation and make recommendations. Not sure if it was his brother in law or the chief that threw them out. He did in fact bring in a medical plan but he neglected to fund it and as a result many out lying areas are stuck with the inability to give the care they did before the plan came in. Abhist did not do a lot to help but at least he had the people stop paying 30 baht for there care while it cost the hospital 50baht to process the 30 baht But what did he do for education to benefit the poor schools you know the ones with out electricity. What did he do to benefit all of Thailand for education. What did he do to insure Thailand that it would have a well built international airport. Answer nothing. But he did make a pile of money off of it with the help of his wife.

Please list your documents that prove he came to power through a dishonest route. Kindly omit the ones with out proof. Or the tired old cliche well the people didn't elect him. The people have never elected a PM. The one's who were shouting we didn't elect him were also trying to mount a coup and burn Bangkok down. Lots and lots of video's showing there leaders urging them to do so.

He was elected by the same identical process that was used to get Thaksin the position of PM. The only difference was in the number of votes cast for each one.

To be honest he was not unique in using his position to fatten his wallet. Not sure on the history of corruption here in Thailand (it has been and always will be here in Thailand no matter who is in the chair) but I think he was the first to do so much of it he had to use his wife's name and his kids names. There by making his supporters wait in line until he was no longer there with a strangle hold on corruption.

He was legally convicted of a crime. That means they had enough evidence to convict him. Of course there is always another side to the story and that is why we have courts and judges to see which side bears the burden of proof.

[birdpooguava]

Ok, since you're fluent in Thai, let's do this. I provide a link to a Democrat's rally or show no longer than an hour and you provide a link to a Red-shirt show or rally. We'll then talk about at least three or more points made in the video clip and discuss it openly for others to comment. This way, I can see understand what's important to you and you can see understand what's important to me. I believe it's a method of being open minded and discussing things in a fair manner. Here's a start:

This is Abhisit at Chon Buri. He talks about Red Shirt's methods, what it means to be the opposition, double standards and more. Please tell me what you agree or disagree about the points he made and if they are facts or just more lies. I'm willing to sit through a video clip of Red Shirt rallies and although I've seen a lot already, I'm sure there are some intelligible ones out there that you can point me to.

Oh and Tlansford, if you're reading this, Abhisit in the video talks about the democratic process of being the opposition and the Red Shirts behavior. Please comment if he's right or wrong about how things are supposed to go in a Democracy. It's really important you understand this because it seems you're the champion of Democracy.

I only sat through 18 minutes of it as I have heard it all many times before. Actually it was quite heartening to see that AV has not learnt from his tragic pre-election tactics and continues to be 100% focused on speaking negatively abut his opposition instead of offering any alternatives. Within 18 minutes AV managed to;

1. Say that those with a democratic mentality don't forbid their opposition a voice ( we all remember the shutdown of all opposition media during his tenure)

2. Call an opposition MP a toad

3. Call TS a murderer

4. Say his party were working tirelessly for no personal gain

5. Others create hatred through lies (Interpol??)

In 18 minutes he did not manage to;

Constructively address one single issue facing the people of Thailand

In contrast here is TS talking policies

[ThaiOats]

Ok, since you're fluent in Thai, let's do this. I provide a link to a Democrat's rally or show no longer than an hour and you provide a link to a Red-shirt show or rally. We'll then talk about at least three or more points made in the video clip and discuss it openly for others to comment. This way, I can see understand what's important to you and you can see understand what's important to me. I believe it's a method of being open minded and discussing things in a fair manner. Here's a start:

This is Abhisit at Chon Buri. He talks about Red Shirt's methods, what it means to be the opposition, double standards and more. Please tell me what you agree or disagree about the points he made and if they are facts or just more lies. I'm willing to sit through a video clip of Red Shirt rallies and although I've seen a lot already, I'm sure there are some intelligible ones out there that you can point me to.

Oh and Tlansford, if you're reading this, Abhisit in the video talks about the democratic process of being the opposition and the Red Shirts behavior. Please comment if he's right or wrong about how things are supposed to go in a Democracy. It's really important you understand this because it seems you're the champion of Democracy.

I only sat through 18 minutes of it as I have heard it all many times before. Actually it was quite heartening to see that AV has not learnt from his tragic pre-election tactics and continues to be 100% focused on speaking negatively abut his opposition instead of offering any alternatives. Within 18 minutes AV managed to;

1. Say that those with a democratic mentality don't forbid their opposition a voice ( we all remember the shutdown of all opposition media during his tenure)

2. Call an opposition MP a toad

3. Call TS a murderer

4. Say his party were working tirelessly for no personal gain

5. Others create hatred through lies (Interpol??)

In 18 minutes he did not manage to;

Constructively address one single issue facing the people of Thailand

In contrast here is TS talking policies

First I'll reply to the points you've observed within 18 minutes.

1. I'm not going to deny that there were media censorship, especially during the Emergency Decree but you also must not deny that the Radio stations were being used as propaganda to incite violence. As wonderful as it may sound, Freedom of Speech should be done responsibly which Mark mentioned in the first few minutes of this audio clip http://www.cfr.org/thailand/conversation-abhisit-vejjajiva-audio/p23027?cid=rss-fullfeed-a_conversation_with__abhisit_v-092410. Even in the U.S there's a limited freedom of speech, for example http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/03/22/city-council-oks-resolution-urging-media-to-curb-racist-sexist-slurs/ . Imagine what it would be like if everyone were to propagate hate and invite violence without control. He only targeted Red Radio stations because they were far from being civilized and if you'd like to bring up the PAD stations, they were not the ones inciting unrest during his tenure and we also know that PAD and Abhisit didn't get along.

2. If you call that vulgar or derogatory , I guess you haven't been listening to Red Shirt rallies.

3. He was replying to the Red Shirt mob in the back and other the ones at Pathum Thani. They showed up to the Democrat rallies and were screaming "Murderer!" as if they know 100% and without a doubt the truth of the situation. Thaksin is just as guilty as a suspect in this case.

4. I don't believe it either but he is the opposition and his party is trying to bring transparency and information to the people. There are other people not in the 15 million that voted for PTP that should have access to information too.

5. Lies? No, Thaksin is guilty for his crimes unless proven otherwise. The Interpol didn't accept or take action because they thought it was politically motivated.

Now on to your video. In the 25 minutes I've watched, Thaksin managed to:

1. Portray himself as being bullied and that he wants justice for himself, not explaining in detail the obvious error they (his opponents) made in judging him wrongly.

2. Make himself two-faced by saying that the government were voted to take care of the Nation's interest. If only he didn't keep stirring problems maybe they would!

3. Bring up irrelevant ties with Japan and his humanitarian efforts to help them after the tsunami/nuclear crisis, as if to show how nice he is. Furthermore, he said in another source "In my mind, I always advocate ... peaceful protest," he said. "Thailand needs reconciliation.", which if you truly believe this quote, you're in way too deep.

4. Talk about "Rule by Law" in which the party in power rules the country by enforcing laws without regards to moral ethics. Well hello! Mr. Thaksin himself is a master at this! PM can't have shares in a company or want to evade tax? No problem, let's just abide by the law and hide our assets with our relatives and gardener amongst other corruption. Tlansford would fall in this category in which, as long as it's by the law, moral and ethics is irrelevant.

5. Mention freedom of speech in which all sides should be active and engage in dialogues. I don't see that happening here with Thida wanting to eradicate the opposition and Red Shirts doing what they do best, incite hatred and violence.

6. Point out that the internet will be the key source of information and that people can no longer "lie" conveniently. Well, I guess that's why we're here today and why there's some truths being circulated about Thaksin whether he likes it or not. Just don't play people for being suckers any more unless they don't have the research skills or capability to do so.

[Thai at Heart]

I am glad that last Fridays mess was avoided. However, it shows so clearly that the language used in this and probably many other constitutions is so vague that for it to need such basic clarification it obviously isn't up to the job.

I am not asking that ptp be given the right tomorrow too rewrite anything wholesale, but that at some point in the future, when this calms down, that they write something that clarifies the intent of what they mean to ever prevent this happening again.

I still believe that the cc overstepped their remit, but despite then giving a reasonable judgement, now there is a new situation whereby anyone can petition. Was this the original intent, or does it open another can of worms for the future. There has to be a way to clearly codify the reasoning behind the structure in place.

I would dearly love to see it written into the constitution that respecting the separation of powers between the various bodies of power us also necessary.

[hellodolly]

I am glad that last Fridays mess was avoided. However, it shows so clearly that the language used in this and probably many other constitutions is so vague that for it to need such basic clarification it obviously isn't up to the job.

I am not asking that ptp be given the right tomorrow too rewrite anything wholesale, but that at some point in the future, when this calms down, that they write something that clarifies the intent of what they mean to ever prevent this happening again.

I still believe that the cc overstepped their remit, but despite then giving a reasonable judgement, now there is a new situation whereby anyone can petition. Was this the original intent, or does it open another can of worms for the future. There has to be a way to clearly codify the reasoning behind the structure in place.

I would dearly love to see it written into the constitution that respecting the separation of powers between the various bodies of power us also necessary.

I agree with you on the wording needing clarification. I also agree to wait a while for wiser heads to hope fully come forward. Any changes should be the result off a decision made by all the parties. Not just one party rewriting it to suit their immediate wants but a group of people uninterested in the one parties wants and concerned for the long term good of all of Thailand. I realize that would step on a lot of toe's but that is what is needed. If it dosen't step on a lot of toe's it is done wrong. Their is no way to please every one.

Yes I realize some will say there is but they will all so tell you they are going to make you rich in six months. Check your bank account and see if it has happened and then judge them accordingly.

[Thai at Heart]

I am glad that last Fridays mess was avoided. However, it shows so clearly that the language used in this and probably many other constitutions is so vague that for it to need such basic clarification it obviously isn't up to the job.

I am not asking that ptp be given the right tomorrow too rewrite anything wholesale, but that at some point in the future, when this calms down, that they write something that clarifies the intent of what they mean to ever prevent this happening again.

I still believe that the cc overstepped their remit, but despite then giving a reasonable judgement, now there is a new situation whereby anyone can petition. Was this the original intent, or does it open another can of worms for the future. There has to be a way to clearly codify the reasoning behind the structure in place.

I would dearly love to see it written into the constitution that respecting the separation of powers between the various bodies of power us also necessary.

I agree with you on the wording needing clarification. I also agree to wait a while for wiser heads to hope fully come forward. Any changes should be the result off a decision made by all the parties. Not just one party rewriting it to suit their immediate wants but a group of people uninterested in the one parties wants and concerned for the long term good of all of Thailand. I realize that would step on a lot of toe's but that is what is needed. If it dosen't step on a lot of toe's it is done wrong. Their is no way to please every one.

Yes I realize some will say there is but they will all so tell you they are going to make you rich in six months. Check your bank account and see if it has happened and then judge them accordingly.

As i have said here many times, there are dozens of constitutions they can copy, but it us the endless thaification they build into it to leave loopholes for interpretation that are the problem, just in case.

My nephew just finished tammasat law and was over on the weekend, and he told me that they have had endless discussions and lectures about which way this case could have been decided.

In other words, very badly written law.

[Roadman]

I am glad that last Fridays mess was avoided. However, it shows so clearly that the language used in this and probably many other constitutions is so vague that for it to need such basic clarification it obviously isn't up to the job.

I am not asking that ptp be given the right tomorrow too rewrite anything wholesale, but that at some point in the future, when this calms down, that they write something that clarifies the intent of what they mean to ever prevent this happening again.

I still believe that the cc overstepped their remit, but despite then giving a reasonable judgement, now there is a new situation whereby anyone can petition. Was this the original intent, or does it open another can of worms for the future. There has to be a way to clearly codify the reasoning behind the structure in place.

I would dearly love to see it written into the constitution that respecting the separation of powers between the various bodies of power us also necessary.

I agree with you on the wording needing clarification. I also agree to wait a while for wiser heads to hope fully come forward. Any changes should be the result off a decision made by all the parties. Not just one party rewriting it to suit their immediate wants but a group of people uninterested in the one parties wants and concerned for the long term good of all of Thailand. I realize that would step on a lot of toe's but that is what is needed. If it dosen't step on a lot of toe's it is done wrong. Their is no way to please every one.

Yes I realize some will say there is but they will all so tell you they are going to make you rich in six months. Check your bank account and see if it has happened and then judge them accordingly.

As i have said here many times, there are dozens of constitutions they can copy, but it us the endless thaification they build into it to leave loopholes for interpretation that are the problem, just in case.

My nephew just finished tammasat law and was over on the weekend, and he told me that they have had endless discussions and lectures about which way this case could have been decided.

In other words, very badly written law.

Possibly not a badly written law (is it a law at all?) but what is needed to fit the current climate and try and steer the constitution through without it being high jacked by the scum bags and criminals (UDD and Reds) within the Pheu Thai ranks for the benefit of the convicted fugitive criminal Premier in Dubai. How many other countries in the world have a convicted criminal financing and leading armed attacks again his country and then politically leading the country from abroad? That one thought alone shows that is one extremely stuffed up country and governance that is far from the norm of any sort of civilised and respected governance. Outside of that with the epidemic corruption through both sides of the house would any sane democratically elected high judge who had the morally to love and care for his country and people do anything else but give the finding that the CC did.

[Reasonableman]

birdpooguava

In Canada we have what is called the Canadian Mental health association.

birdpooguava is a prime example that propaganda works. The reds use a lot of what Joseph Goebbels taught and it works...

Take a look at yourself and your buddies. You obviously haven't seriously looked into the effectiveness of Thaksin's policies on poverty rates or the wealth gap. Interesting that you claim others are 'mental' and/ or indoctrinated when you don't even know the basic facts involved. Blind faith works for religious nuts as well.

Apparently.

[Moruya]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.

What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.

Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.

Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.

Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.

The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.

Is Thaksin the man? No.

They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranks

My personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.

Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.

Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

So which of Thaksin's alleged sins do you think he did not commit?

That was a very short list.