Really Awkward Problem After Giving A Gift To A Thai Person

[byrne1916]

I'm writing this totally confused and with no idea what I've done wrong here.

To make a long story shorter, here are the facts (please help me if you have any clue)-

*I live in an apartment block with my girlfriend were both from Europe, and don't know any Thai yet.

*My GF's family came over on a holiday and came to our apartment after landing in the airport around 11pm

*We asked the lady in reception if she could ring a taxi for the family (4 persons total)

*Taxi arrived but had a passenger and had to drop off the passenger to make space, and then came back 5mins later.

*When the taxi came back he refused to take them because he didn't realize they had luggage also and said bye bye.

*I told the lady the situation that we had no taxi and if she could phone a mini-bus because of the bags

(Point to note her English is not good, but she tries her best and we try simplify things also for her)

*The lady came back and said the building owner would take them in his pickup (Yipeee!)

*The family asked what price and she said 350 baht (normal price was 500baht)

*I was delighted and shook her hand and said deal! She had a big smile on her face.

*The family then left and went over to Patong in Phuket.

*Family couldn't find the hotel because it was still being built and like idiots didn't print a map.

*The building owner spent over 90 minutes driving around asking directions until he found it and never lost his patience.

*My GF's mother was so happy that he didn't leave them, that she insisted he took 1,000baht and enjoyed himself

*After he refused 20 times he eventually took the money which delighted my mother in law.

*In the mean time we were so happy that we went to a near by Super cheap and bought the lady and the building owner a little box of ferrero rocher (5 sweets in each of them)

*I drove back, gave her the sweets and said thanks a million for helping us out and making sure we got a taxi, especially when it was so late at night, and that my family really appreciated the help. She even stood outside watching us to make sure there was no problems.

Now 5 days later (the family has even flown home, and my GF has even went into the reception this morning and paid the rent) this happens and has totally shocked me with no clue what we did wrong -

The lady from reception waited until midnight (they normally close at 8pm)

She walked quickly out of reception holding the 2 boxes of sweets still un-opened and said excuse me as we arrived back from being out walking.

We turned around and looked at the sweets abit confused, thinking "she mustn't like those sweets"

And then she says this -

"I don't think yous are satisfied with me" and looked really worried.

I said -

"No no those are for you and your boss, because you helped our family when we were stuck"

"That is gift to say thank you for helping us, you did a really good job"

Now I was pretty dam_n surprised but I still tried to keep smiling and to make sure there was no loss of face.

She then took out the 1,000 baht and said -

"No I don't think you understand me"

She looked really upset at this point, I thought she was going to cry. My girlfriend just froze and never spoke one word (terrible under any pressure)

So I straight away said the same kind of thing again, and even tried laughing saying those sweets were "Aroy!" and she would like them.... I added in a 1,000,000 thank yous and put on the biggest smile I could (it was bloody hard)

She still looked upset, and all we could do was say thanks and goodbye, and then awkwardly walked away.... We're both at a total loss as to what was done wrong and can't understand any of it. Tried Googling customs and we can't see what we have done wrong or offensive.

[jacktrip]

sounds like they did not want the 1,000 baht and gifts but were rather expecting to help you from goodwill rather then compensation. and were perhaps offended when the extra was offered. giving the gifts back would be a loss of face and they could not do that either.

i tried to tip my barber 20 baht because he cuts hair for 50 baht which is less the $2 US. he acted all weird about it, so i quickly palmed it. it's like saying to him in front of other customers 'your poor, use this to buy thin noodle', was the vibe i got. remember pride is very strong in thailand, not many truly humble people around.

if you had just paid the 350 baht that would most likely be the end of it.

Edited July 17, 2012 by jacktrip

[Ohyesuare]

Ya I agree, I think it is similar to Japan if you try to tip they will say they don't want it and be offended that you think they need more money just to do their job.

[nocturn]

what he said.

[arthurwait]

Do the people you gave the stuff to own the apartment block ?

[breadbin]

yep, you've burned your bridge!

cest la vie

Next time give nothing, no tip and dont say thanks.

Then they'll be the ones confused!!!

TIT, sit back and relax, all will fall into place eventually.

[SlyAnimal]

If you offer to pay someone, for something they're doing just to be helpful etc (maybe buying you dinner or driving you somewhere etc)

If you offer to pay once it's polite

If they refuse then they are just happy to do it for you

If you offer to pay again then you're showing that you're really sincere about wanting to pay

If they refuse again, then they're showing you that they really just enjoy helping you etc.

If you continue to offer to pay, you get close to being impolite. As you kinda turn a kind deed, into a business transaction.

From what I've seen, the same usually applies in both farang counrties (Well in NZ anyway), as well as in Thailand.

If you want people to allow you to pay, then tell them that you'll feel too much Greng Jai if you don't make some contribution (Greng Jai means basically that you feel indebted to them, and thus guilty as a result, there isn't a direct translation into English). As they will then understand how you feel, and either allow you to pay something, or will say something to put you at ease

[Dancealot]

Those gifts can very well be taken as a big insult, indeed. Mai pen rai. You get the gifts back insulted and so are insulted back.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

[cdnmatt]

Maybe they were just trying to "make merit", and by receiving goods in exchange for the help, there's no merit to be made now? You stole their merit, so now they're coming back as a cockroach in the next life thanks to you.

No idea...

Edited July 17, 2012 by cdnmatt

[byrne1916]

sounds like they did not want the 1,000 baht and gifts but were rather expecting to help you from goodwill rather then compensation. and were perhaps offended when the extra was offered. giving the gifts back would be a loss of face and they could not do that either.

i tried to tip my barber 20 baht because he cuts hair for 50 baht which is less the $2 US. he acted all weird about it, so i quickly palmed it. it's like saying to him in front of other customers 'your poor, use this to buy thin noodle', was the vibe i got. remember pride is very strong in thailand, not many truly humble people around.

After reading what you said Jacktrip and also some other stuff like this one -

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1271.htm

I'm starting to get the picture... I'm here 1 year now and never seen someone act like this until now. It was only because they got us out of a really big hole and we wanted to show our appreciation, seeing as language wasn't the best way.

We didn't think the mother would give so much, so we wanted to buy the chocolates to make sure they knew we were dead happy with all the help they gave us, it really was a big relief to us because we only have a moped between 2 of us.

Ya I agree, I think it is similar to Japan if you try to tip they will say they don't want it and be offended that you think they need more money just to do their job.

I've been to Japan and I understand not to tip there. I tip in Thailand if I'm treated good, but not too excessively, usually 10% as a gesture.

Do the people you gave the stuff to own the apartment block ?

The lady was the receptionist, and the building owner has 3 big blocks that we know of.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

Go jump in front of a tuk tuk,

[arthurwait]

Do the people you gave the stuff to own the apartment block ?

The lady was the receptionist, and the building owner has 3 big blocks that we know of.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

Go jump in front of a tuk tuk,

Sounds like he's quite wealthy then. He may feel you have tipped him like someone would a poor Thai and maybe insulted him.

[Dancealot]

Get a life, don't have a cow man. You could take my answer in a positive way. But you didn't. Good luck

[jacktrip]

Sounds like he's quite wealthy then. He may feel you have tipped him like someone would a poor Thai and maybe insulted him.

yes! it could have been a hi-so family, in which case it would be a major loss of face, and maybe even violent if everyone was in the know.

[DavidSL]

Those gifts can very well be taken as a big insult, indeed. Mai pen rai. You get the gifts back insulted and so are insulted back.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

How does it serve them right? This is kindness shown by a Westerner to a Thai. I, too, had no idea that giving a gift to a Thai could be seen as an insult, though with explanation I do understand why it can be construed this way. But to tell the OP it serves him and his girlfriend right for being nice is ridiculous, not to mention showing a certain impoliteness that perhaps you've not noticed from living here too long (or not long enough).

OP, I'm as confused as you are on this one, though it looks like one of those times where our culture and Thai culture are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. Whilst our cultures are very different, it's rare to find situations like this where neither side can comprehend the other - there's usually at least some common human understanding grounding the differences. This is a strange one.

[arthurwait]

Sounds like he's quite wealthy then. He may feel you have tipped him like someone would a poor Thai and maybe insulted him.

yes! it could have been a hi-so family, in which case it would be a major loss of face, and maybe even violent if everyone was in the know.

I doubt violence would come into it or even Hi-so, but he's probably wealthier than the people who stay in his apartments and feels a little arkward or patronized or whatever with the money.

[jacktrip]

well if a man offered my woman a 1000 baht note, i would not be to happy about it. especially if it was in a tourist area.

[breadbin]

you're doomed, you'll need to move out.

Doomed I say, doomed, start looking now.

Why would you want to live in a place where people cant stand you?

I wouldn't.

[fletchsmile]

For the owner and receptionist they probably saw their actions as "nam jai" (=genuine act of kindness or help, without anything expected in return). Giving money for such an act, particularly when repeatedly refused may sort of "cheapen it".

For the owner of the building there might well be the value of "bunkhun" in play, as well as seniority. The owner does a favour, and this "bunkhun" should create a feeling of gratitude or indebtedness in the one on the receiving end. In addition bunkhun is between people of different status levels, where the higher person behaves in a kind way to those lower than them. Status-wise the building owner is higher than you, probably older, more money as they own the building. A master or richer person tips a servant with money, not the other way round. Insisting on giving money, might have been looked at as insisting on a higher position in society, when you should simply have been acknowledging the kindness of someone higher. I guess flipping it round in western terms it might have come across as "patronising" is the nearest equivalent I can think of. To an owner of several buildings, who is probably wealthy THB 1,000 is probably not much and may leave them wondering who do you think I am?. In the same way, you wouldn't give a dollar tip say to a multi-millionaire, a lord/lady, or someone else viewed as "higher" in society in the west who say gave you a lift - not a great analogy though.

As for the chocolates. You should present to the owner in person, not thru the receptionist. It's also possible that she was on the receiving end of the owners reaction to your family's actions, and she was on the receiving end of who do they think they are. You've unwittingly put her in an uncomfortable position.

I fully understand your family's intentions. It's the type of thing my parents would also do to be honest.

What to do differently. If someone refuses money, and you ask again and they refuse it, then leave it - respect their position. Money to someone higher than you in return for kindness is not the right way to show gratitude. That's what the higher person might do to the lower. A nicer touch would have been something personal or something from your home country at a later point in time.

The above are all just possibilities, and there could be any other number of reasons, Thai related or not.

Personally, what I would do, is in a day or so, have a word with the receptionist. Along the lines of, I'm sorry I think we may have put you in a difficult situation. Our customs are a bit different. Could you help me understand what we could have done better, and what a Thai person would have done. They might get embarassed, and feel a little uncomfortable, but they will understand you are saying sorry, and your customs are different. You may even build a friendship with someone you can ask these things.

Next time you see the owner, you might want to "wai" them. Lower person wais first showing you recognise their higher status. Thank them again for helping your family, and add that I hope you weren't offended by the mother-in-laws insistence, as she doesn't understand Thai customs. Throw in a few phrases around how your MIL kept saying that Thai people are so kind..... etc

Bottom line: They are the only ones who know how your actions were received and why. Showing humility and apologising will go a long way for barbaric foreigners. Besides they won't want you to feel uncomfortable so will likely quick want to make you feel better! We all make mistakes in different cultures, so as you're doing recognise you made one, and see if you can now use it to build bridges and relationships.

Edit: BTW 5 Ferrero Rocher is a bit of a cheap gift and nothing special - cost what say 100 baht. Now if the owner had already given the 1,000 baht to the receptionist to give back, do you think she would really want to pass on 100 baht chocolates?. She'd be uncomfortable and thinking what have I done to deserve this

Edited July 17, 2012 by fletchsmile

[smokie36]

I imagine we all feel better after that explanation fletch...great post.

[Beetlejuice]

Could there be some language confusion here?

When the lady quoted the price of 350 baht to take the four persons to the airport, did she mean 350 per person or for the whole group?

When the GFs mother gave the driver 1000 baht as a tip, did you include the original 350 baht in with this tip or was the 350 baht exclusive on top of the 1000 baht?

Did the girlfriend’s family stay for any amount of time in your apartment and would there be any additional rent expected for this?

Whatever, something does not seem right here and it appears that the nice little lady on reception feels she has been taken advantage of and there must be a lot more to this story than is being expressed by the OP.

[Totster]

Excellent post Fletch, I must admit to learning something today.

Would it be an idea to use a Thai friend who is fluent in English (and possibly used to our foreign ways) to explain to them the misunderstanding ? This is probably what I would do, but then could it throw more fuel on the fire ???

totster

Edited July 17, 2012 by Totster

[Scully]

350 baht each, there problem solved

[byrne1916]

@fletch - I think you've explained it perfectly. In your words my family sound just awful... I can even picture my mother in law forcing the money on top of the building owner.

I'm going to try and repair things like you've suggested, but ouch, I'm really feeling the sting!! If this doesn't go well I'm leaving the building, and I'm here now 11 months

Reason I got the ferrero rocher was because I went to 4 shops and they were the best I could find, it was 11pm and no where else was open.

When the lady quoted the price of 350 baht to take the four persons to the airport, did she mean 350 per person or for the whole group?

When the GFs mother gave the driver 1000 baht as a tip, did you include the original 350 baht in with this tip or was the 350 baht exclusive on top of the 1000 baht?

Did the girlfriend’s family stay for any amount of time in your apartment and would there be any additional rent expected for this?

Whatever, something does not seem right here and it appears that the nice little lady on reception feels she has been taken advantage of and there must be a lot more to this story than is being expressed by the OP.

You should re-read the above, they just arrived from the airport and were on their way to Patong, we got dropped off at our apartment but the taxi drivers started to trying to scam us, so we paid them and asked our receptionist if she could get our family a new taxi. I left this part out because it wasn't relevant to the story and I didn't want to confuse anyone.

They didn't stay in our building at all.

Excellent post Fletch, I must admit to learning something today.

Would it be an idea to use a Thai friend who is fluent in English (and possibly used to our foreign ways) to explain to them the misunderstanding ? This is probably what I would do, but then could it throw more fuel on the fire ???

totster

We were thinking about this, but I think this will make things alot worse?? I don't want to embarrass her more.

I've already started looking for another apartment now, so I think this sums my thoughts up.

[Ohyesuare]

Maybe I have the story completely wrong but the 350 baht per person would make sense. He probably thought they were trying to bargain him down to 1000 baht which is why he kept refusing and then after receiving the 100 baht chocolate instead of the remaining 400 baht he sent the receptionist who asks you if you weren't satisfied with the service and maybe she got in trouble for not explaining the proper rate. Could be he also thought you guys blamed him for not being able to find the place.

I could be totally making shit up but sometimes it is incredible the things that are lost in translation between cultures.

[byrne1916]

Maybe I have the story completely wrong but the 350 baht per person would make sense. He probably thought they were trying to bargain him down to 1000 baht which is why he kept refusing and then after receiving the 100 baht chocolate instead of the remaining 400 baht he sent the receptionist who asks you if you weren't satisfied with the service and maybe she got in trouble for not explaining the proper rate. Could be he also thought you guys blamed him for not being able to find the place.

I could be totally making shit up but sometimes it is incredible the things that are lost in translation between cultures.

350 baht each, there problem solved

Both valid points, and thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post.

The only problem I can see with this, is why give us the 1,000 baht and chocolate back?

I personally don't think that was the issue, but who knows TIT!?!??!?

I could email his wife who is a foreigner like myself and ask her, but I think this would make the whole thing worse.

If we had a small piece of Thai or more English then this wouldn't be "lost in translation" as said.

Its depressing to see something with good intentions blown into something so bad.

[GuestHouse]

If she's offended and wants to express her offence by strutting about with a bad face on, but can't or won't articulate to you what has actually caused the offence, then my advice is leave her to it.

I've seen hundreds of occasions when Thais take offence over some claimed feux pas committed by a foreigner against their Thai culture.

The reason they are pished is almost never the reason they say they are pished.

But here's the nasty trick - its their culture, they know all the rules, you know non of the rules - They get to say when you are right and when you are wrong.

Golden rule of cross cultural respect - If you don't start from a basis of respecting yourself and your own culture you will wind up lost in a cultural maze with know point of reference you can rely on.

My advice, make a reasonable apology for any unintended offence you have caused, (it seems you have made your reasonable apology) - Now let her get over herself.

The alternative is you pussy foot around people who are telling you how to behave on the basis of a set of rules they and only they have sight of.

[aneliane]

They both helped you

They know each others

They are going to comment on who got what, (TIT) every bat of eyelid of Farang are reported discussed and analyzed.

Why did you give such a disproportionate gifts to each of them ? (1000 thb/ few chocolates)

He's a building owner (rich) making a profit renting you apartments and as an employee she gets cheap chocolates?

it sounds strange to me too

I too would feel that you were not happy with me, if you gave 1000 to someone else and 50 thb worth of chocolate to me

Edited July 18, 2012 by aneliane

[nocturn]

Could there be some language confusion here?

When the lady quoted the price of 350 baht to take the four persons to the airport, did she mean 350 per person or for the whole group?

When the GFs mother gave the driver 1000 baht as a tip, did you include the original 350 baht in with this tip or was the 350 baht exclusive on top of the 1000 baht?

Did the girlfriend’s family stay for any amount of time in your apartment and would there be any additional rent expected for this?

Whatever, something does not seem right here and it appears that the nice little lady on reception feels she has been taken advantage of and there must be a lot more to this story than is being expressed by the OP.

how do you manage to say the same thing with every post?

[nocturn]

.

good god, you are contemplating leaving the building over this?

does the receptionist work from your sofa? If not whats the bother?

Iv bedded the receptionist and continued to dwell in peace.

mountain > mole hill

[Berkshire]

Could there be some language confusion here?

When the lady quoted the price of 350 baht to take the four persons to the airport, did she mean 350 per person or for the whole group?

When the GFs mother gave the driver 1000 baht as a tip, did you include the original 350 baht in with this tip or was the 350 baht exclusive on top of the 1000 baht?

Did the girlfriend’s family stay for any amount of time in your apartment and would there be any additional rent expected for this?

Whatever, something does not seem right here and it appears that the nice little lady on reception feels she has been taken advantage of and there must be a lot more to this story than is being expressed by the OP.

Agree that there's massive language confusion here. If the OP really, REALLY, wants to get to the bottom of this, he'd get a Thai person (who speaks some English) to go over there and talk to the receptionist. Asking a bunch of farangs on this thread--none of whom were there so are completely clueless--is not going to get the real answer.

I hope the OP takes this advice as I'm curious to know what's really going on. Makes zero sense on so many levels.