Thai Forces 'Kill 38 Cambodian Loggers In Six Months'

[webfact]

Thai forces 'kill 38 Cambodian loggers in six months'

PHNOM PENH, Aug 15, 2012 (AFP) - Thai forces shot dead 38 Cambodians in the first half of this year for illegally crossing the border to log for valuable timber, according to the Cambodian authorities.

A further 10 Cambodians were injured in incidents with Thai border forces and 194 were arrested, though not all of them on suspicion of illegal logging, the Cambodia-Thailand Border Relations Office said in a report dated August 12.

The number of fatalities dwarfs the toll last year when around 11 alleged Cambodian loggers were reported killed over a 12-month period, according to statistics collected by local rights group ADHOC.

Nicolas Agostini, a technical assistant at ADHOC, blamed the spike in deaths on a growing number of frontier residents willing to risk their lives to escape poverty.

"The levels of poverty in the border provinces are quite high and people are desperate," he told AFP.

Cambodian loggers are routinely caught sneaking into Thailand, often in search of rosewood, which fetches thousands of dollars per cubic metre and is in strong demand in China and Vietnam.

Years of rampant illegal felling in Cambodia have devastated the country's own luxury timber stocks.

Cambodian officials, including Prime Minister Hun Sen, have repeatedly urged Thailand to arrest trespassers instead of firing at them, while Bangkok says its troops are acting in self-defence against armed Cambodians.

Agostini urged Thai authorities to launch "meaningful investigations" into the killings.

"We are really concerned that Cambodian loggers may have been shot on sight," he told AFP. "The use of firearms is only justified as a last resort."

Cambodian officials were not immediately available for comment while a Thai army spokeswoman said she was unable to confirm the death toll.

The border between the two countries has never been fully demarcated, in part because it is littered with landmines left over from decades of war in Cambodia.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2012-08-15

[JeremyBowskill]

Silly question probably but can't they be arrested without being shot??? Or is this just a case of the army protecting the interests of someone higher up who wants to sell the trees themself? Seems a bit heavy handed to shoot someone for stealing wood though.....

[geovalin]

This is the way Thais think about their neighbors, as animals which can be shot like rabbits (in France, we shoot rabbits). They are very lucky that the Burmese and Cambodian authorities are more civilized and just jail the Thai trespassers.

Question of education: Thai parents and teachers should stop to teach contempt for Khmer and Burmese and Lao to the kids.

[jonclark]

Silly question probably but can't they be arrested without being shot??? Or is this just a case of the army protecting the interests of someone higher up who wants to sell the trees themself? Seems a bit heavy handed to shoot someone for stealing wood though.....

I always find it staggering that no one really cares - especially the Cambodian and Thai governments about these deaths. If say the UK police had shot 38 poverty stricken foreign nationals encroaching onto UK territory , the investigations, enquiries and prison sentences as well as a complete over haul of the police service would follow.

Here nothing, silence and complete indifference. That in itself speaks volumes for the national character of all Thais. So much so that I'm not sure who it pity more, The families of the deceased or the Thais for their silence.

Edited August 15, 2012 by jonclark

[cloudhopper]

Open season for Cambodians. I hope they are at least eaten.

[BirdsandBooze]

It looks like they use these Cambodians for target practice. Thailand could learn a lot by taking a leaf out of Burma's book in the way they deal with encroachers. Incidents of this nature give lie to Thailands belief in their moral superiority over Western nations.

[canopy]

If killing them isn't a 100% deterrent then can you imagine just how bad things would be if they were only arrested and out doing it again with so many others? The Thai forests would be crawling with cambodians who have ruined the forests on their side of the border and want to do the same to Thailand. Idiots who knowingly cross international borders with the sole purpose to steal and armed to kill anyone who gets in their way have made a choice. Thailand thus has the choice between having forests or supporting stupid, greedy criminals. It is refreshing to see Thailand understands this situation and has the balls to make the difficult, though correct choice.

Edited August 15, 2012 by canopy

[Woodcaulk]

Cambodian officials, including Prime Minister Hun Sen,

I didn't bother quoting him as he has consistently been the biggest rapist of Cambodian natural resources since he took power in 1985....of course he wants to protect the illegal loggers, its his fault there is no more wood to harvest in Cambodia.

[maidu]

SE Asia is a part of the world where some people are held at supremely lofty esteem, and others, at the bottom rungs are viewed as less than fingernail grit.

[hhiser]

If killing them isn't a 100% deterrent then can you imagine just how bad things would be if they were only arrested and out doing it again with so many others? The Thai forests would be crawling with cambodians who have ruined the forests on their side of the border and want to do the same to Thailand. Idiots who knowingly cross international borders with the sole purpose to steal and armed to kill anyone who gets in their way have made a choice. Thailand thus has the choice between having forests or supporting stupid, greedy criminals. It is refreshing to see Thailand understands this situation and has the balls to make the difficult, though correct choice.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

[OzMick]

Cambodian criminals carry weapons. Surprising? Armed Cambodian criminals resist arrest. Surprising? Armed Cambodian criminals resisting arrest get shot - well that's just got to be racially based slaughter bordering on genocide. That is incredible. Literally.

[noitom]

38 killings in 6 months is astonishing. In "undemarcated" border area because of land mines. The killings by the Thais raises the stakes on starting a war. Thais don't arrest and detain for trial. A cartridge is cheaper.

[jonclark]

Cambodian criminals carry weapons. Surprising? Armed Cambodian criminals resist arrest. Surprising? Armed Cambodian criminals resisting arrest get shot - well that's just got to be racially based slaughter bordering on genocide. That is incredible. Literally.

In Thailand armed Thai people resisting arrest get shot if poor or bail if rich, go figure.

[canopy]

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

Don't lump this in with drugs and terrorism policies that are certainly stupid and failed approaches. It is clear that simply arresting people like Cambodia advocates has likewise proven to be a failed approach in their own country. Defenseless tigers, elephants, forests and the like must be vigorously protected or they will be gone to the detriment of all of us and those that follow. You won't get any sympathy from me for taking on armed bandits stealing from all of us. Though imperfect, I don't see a better solution.

[zakk9]

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

Don't lump this in with drugs and terrorism policies that are certainly stupid and failed approaches. It is clear that simply arresting people like Cambodia advocates has likewise proven to be a failed approach in their own country. Defenseless tigers, elephants, forests and the like must be vigorously protected or they will be gone to the detriment of all of us and those that follow. You won't get any sympathy from me for taking on armed bandits stealing from all of us. Though imperfect, I don't see a better solution.

That would imply that all illegal loggers should be shot on site, including the Thais recently arrested in Myanmar and those who burn forests in Northern Thailand. Interesting attitude

[Thai at Heart]

Which begs the most obvious question, who sets the policy? The army or the government?

[Honkytowner]

Thailand thus has the choice between having forests or supporting stupid, greedy criminals.

I thought supporting stupid greedy criminals was Thailand's very raison d'être.

[SouthernMan3]

38 in 6 months.

Must be a record.

NOT...

[spidermike007]

Meanwhile, Cambodia continues to kill journalists who are the least bit critical of this fabulously corrupt and repressive government. And they continue to kill landowners, who are not willing to move off their land, with little or no compensation, because some billionaire Cambodian developer, who is a friend of Hun Sen the great Pig leader, wants the land. So, these are the people complaining, and asking Thailand to deal with these poachers in a gingerly manner? Felling the hardwoods is a great crime. Is it worthy of death. Probably not. But, is has to be dealt with. How about 1660 volt electrical fences that do not quite kill, but injure in a big way?

[richard_smith237]

Silly question probably but can't they be arrested without being shot??? Or is this just a case of the army protecting the interests of someone higher up who wants to sell the trees themself? Seems a bit heavy handed to shoot someone for stealing wood though.....

I always find it staggering that no one really cares - especially the Cambodian and Thai governments about these deaths. If say the UK police had shot 38 poverty stricken foreign nationals encroaching onto UK territory , the investigations, enquiries and prison sentences as well as a complete over haul of the police service would follow.

Here nothing, silence and complete indifference. That in itself speaks volumes for the national character of all Thais. So much so that I'm not sure who it pity more, The families of the deceased or the Thais for their silence.

Agreed... I remember the International Uproar in the aftermath of the death of Jean Charles de Menezes - Shot on the London Underground in 2005 after he fled from the police and the house they had under surveillance in the aftermath of the London Bomb attacks.

That one death was met with international outrage - Yet these 38 deaths will be largely ignored domestically and completely unheard of internationally.

I find it amazing that some governments and countries are held far more accountable than others.

[jsflynn603]

"Nicolas Agostini, a technical assistant at ADHOC, blamed the spike in deaths on a growing number of frontier residents willing to risk their lives to escape poverty."

Abject poverty and impending starvation probably does make for a continuing scenario....

I suppose they could harvest all the Rosewood, then perhaps there would be no more killing... I'm surprised that this has not happened yet.

[khaowong1]

Silly question probably but can't they be arrested without being shot??? Or is this just a case of the army protecting the interests of someone higher up who wants to sell the trees themself? Seems a bit heavy handed to shoot someone for stealing wood though.....

I always find it staggering that no one really cares - especially the Cambodian and Thai governments about these deaths. If say the UK police had shot 38 poverty stricken foreign nationals encroaching onto UK territory , the investigations, enquiries and prison sentences as well as a complete over haul of the police service would follow.

Here nothing, silence and complete indifference. That in itself speaks volumes for the national character of all Thais. So much so that I'm not sure who it pity more, The families of the deceased or the Thais for their silence.

It boggles the mind.. and on top of that, the Thai Defense minister is in Cambodia trying to get some trespassing Thai's released.. complete <deleted>, is what I say.. complete <deleted>. Did I spell <deleted> correctly? I'm an American and don't know <deleted>.

[OzMick]

Meanwhile, Cambodia continues to kill journalists who are the least bit critical of this fabulously corrupt and repressive government. And they continue to kill landowners, who are not willing to move off their land, with little or no compensation, because some billionaire Cambodian developer, who is a friend of Hun Sen the great Pig leader, wants the land. So, these are the people complaining, and asking Thailand to deal with these poachers in a gingerly manner? Felling the hardwoods is a great crime. Is it worthy of death. Probably not. But, is has to be dealt with. How about 1660 volt electrical fences that do not quite kill, but injure in a big way?

My property had 3000V electric fences to deter stock and kangaroos. To seriously injure/maim/kill you need deliverable amperage. P=VI .

[moe666]

This is the way Thais think about their neighbors, as animals which can be shot like rabbits (in France, we shoot rabbits). They are very lucky that the Burmese and Cambodian authorities are more civilized and just jail the Thai trespassers.

Question of education: Thai parents and teachers should stop to teach contempt for Khmer and Burmese and Lao to the kids.

Have you forgotten Pol Pot I think he was a Cambodian

[FOODLOVER]

This is the way Thais think about their neighbors, as animals which can be shot like rabbits (in France, we shoot rabbits). They are very lucky that the Burmese and Cambodian authorities are more civilized and just jail the Thai trespassers.

Question of education: Thai parents and teachers should stop to teach contempt for Khmer and Burmese and Lao to the kids.

Have you forgotten Pol Pot I think he was a Cambodian

Remember, yes, but these executions are going on under Yinglucks administration. Perhaps we should ask her what she thinks.

[Buchholz]

38 killings in 6 months is astonishing. In "undemarcated" border area because of land mines. The killings by the Thais raises the stakes on starting a war. Thais don't arrest and detain for trial. A cartridge is cheaper.

I thought all these border skirmishes and disputes with Cambodia were supposed to be resolved when the Yingluck government took over.

Instead, things have escalated further than ever before.

Were all the posters endlessly blaming the previous government wrong?

[raybal5]

If killing them isn't a 100% deterrent then can you imagine just how bad things would be if they were only arrested and out doing it again with so many others? The Thai forests would be crawling with cambodians who have ruined the forests on their side of the border and want to do the same to Thailand. Idiots who knowingly cross international borders with the sole purpose to steal and armed to kill anyone who gets in their way have made a choice. Thailand thus has the choice between having forests or supporting stupid, greedy criminals. It is refreshing to see Thailand understands this situation and has the balls to make the difficult, though correct choice.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

If killing them isn't a 100% deterrent then can you imagine just how bad things would be if they were only arrested and out doing it again with so many others? The Thai forests would be crawling with cambodians who have ruined the forests on their side of the border and want to do the same to Thailand. Idiots who knowingly cross international borders with the sole purpose to steal and armed to kill anyone who gets in their way have made a choice. Thailand thus has the choice between having forests or supporting stupid, greedy criminals. It is refreshing to see Thailand understands this situation and has the balls to make the difficult, though correct choice.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect App

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

hhiser does not appear to understand the drug trade issue. To suggest that the death penalty serves to increase traffic is absurd. Surely it is the money involved. Unless he is saying that the drug lemmings get a thrill from the prospect of death. What a stupid outlook. I agree with Canopy on the trees issue. If Cambodia wanted to, they could stop the illegal logging from Thai territory by supporting the pirates with some other forms of employment. If there were no death penalty then the trees would be rapidly taken and the jungles decimated.

Edited August 16, 2012 by raybal5

[zakk9]

hhiser does not appear to understand the drug trade issue. To suggest that the death penalty serves to increase traffic is absurd. Surely it is the money involved. Unless he is saying that the drug lemmings get a thrill from the prospect of death. What a stupid outlook. I agree with Canopy on the trees issue. If Cambodia wanted to, they could stop the illegal logging from Thai territory by supporting the pirates with some other forms of employment. If there were no death penalty then the trees would be rapidly taken and the jungles decimated.

These are not death penalties, these are executions without any form of trial. This is something I would expect from a nation like North Korea, but even then, there would have been protests from all over the world. Somehow, Thailand seems to escape any form of publicity around their killings, and mind you, this is not a unique example.

[hhiser]

Seems to me your logic is a bit lacking. Since the loggers have not stopped trying. You are advocating the same policies applied to the people involved in the Drug Trade and Terrorism. Both of which are continuing to occur and it could be argued that the policy has increased the occurence of each.

Don't lump this in with drugs and terrorism policies that are certainly stupid and failed approaches. It is clear that simply arresting people like Cambodia advocates has likewise proven to be a failed approach in their own country. Defenseless tigers, elephants, forests and the like must be vigorously protected or they will be gone to the detriment of all of us and those that follow. You won't get any sympathy from me for taking on armed bandits stealing from all of us. Though imperfect, I don't see a better solution.

That would imply that all illegal loggers should be shot on site, including the Thais recently arrested in Myanmar and those who burn forests in Northern Thailand. Interesting attitude

In addition canopy claims that since these were "armed bandits" they deserved to be shot. The only source for this claim was a Bangkok official. That is a reliable source if I have ever seen one!

[hhiser]

hhiser does not appear to understand the drug trade issue. To suggest that the death penalty serves to increase traffic is absurd. Surely it is the money involved. Unless he is saying that the drug lemmings get a thrill from the prospect of death. What a stupid outlook. I agree with Canopy on the trees issue. If Cambodia wanted to, they could stop the illegal logging from Thai territory by supporting the pirates with some other forms of employment. If there were no death penalty then the trees would be rapidly taken and the jungles decimated.

You do not think that the dangers inherent in the drug trade does not increase the money paid to the mules? And thus increases the lure.