Unmarried Partner Visa Refusal - Help Please! Uk

[cptruff]

We applied for our visa on 4th July 2012. We got the passport back today with a refusal letter.

I would be grateful is anyone could give us their opinion as to whether it is worth appealing or getting married and trying again. We included everything we had at the time. The letter is pretty long but here it is word for word:

You state you wish to travel to the UK with your partner, xxxx xxxxx, to settle in the UK. You state on your visa application form that you met your sponsor in November 2009 and that your relationship began in June 2010. You also state that you have lived together at the same address for two years. You have submitted a letter from your sponsor dates the 28th June 2012 in which he states you have been in a serious relationship for two years and one month and that you have been living together for two years. To support the claim that you have been living together address for two years you have submitted a letter dated 23rd June 2012 from the manager of your apartment. I note that he states that your sponsor moved into your current address in November 2009 and that you moved to join him in July 2010. You have not submitted the tenancy agreement to show that your are both on the rental agreement or substantive evidence of when you moved in there. Given the inconsistencies in the dates stated by you and your sponsor for your relationship and from your landlord, I am not satisfied that you have not attempted to make it appear that you have resided longer together than in reality.

-this is my fault I think which could void any chance of an appeal. As to the rental agreement, it only has my name on it from November 2009, there are no other documents we could provide.-

From the photocopy of the passport pages from your sponsor's passports I note that he has resided in Thailand almost continuously since you state your relationship began. From the endorsements in your passport I note that you travelled to Germany for three months, departing Thailand 10th March 2010 and returning to Thailand 7th June 2010. I note that from the photocopy of your sponsor's passport that he departed Thailand on 11th March 2010, returning on 10th April 2010, the destination of which is unknown. However, given the departure dates, I am not satisfied that you have demonstrated that you spent any of your time in Germany with your sponsor or that you were in a relationship at that time. I am therefore not satisfied that you have demonstrated you have been in a continuous relationship for the period stated. I am therefore not satisfied that the circumstances of your relationship are as stated.

You state that you have resided together in your current address for the last two years. I accept from the documents submitted that your sponsor resides at your stated address and from the postmark on a card addressed to him that he has done so since at least February 2011. However, you have not submitted any substantive evidence with your name for that address to show that you have resided together for two years.

-I've lived at my address since November 2009 and my girlfriend moved in June 2010. She went to Germany to visit her (at the time) boyfriend, they finished and we started our relationship when she returned. So we never claimed that we were in a relationship before she went and neither did we claim that I accompanied her to Germany. I went back to the UK to visit family for a month-

I am therefore not satisfied that you are the unmarried partner of a person present and settled in the UK or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement and the parties have lived together in a relationship akin to marriage for two years or more.

I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that you meet all the requirements of the relevant Paragraph of the UK immigration rules.

[VisasPlus]

Unfortunately the onus is on you to provide evidence that you have lived together for two years. Without that evidence you have little chance of winning an appeal. Are you sure that you don't have any other evidence ?

If you get married now you can overcome the "unmarried partner" problem, and your wife can then reapply for a settlement visa. However, the application will be under the new rules, and you may not (having been living in Thailand for some time) be able to meet the financial/income requirements. As we don't know your personal circumstances, we can't really comment on that aspect.

[cptruff]

Thank you for the reply.

no we don't have any other evidence. The tenancy agreement is in my name and my girlfriend moved in seven months later, she didn't have to sign anything. There isn't any evidence that I can think of. We had a signed letter from our landlord/manager, that surely must carry weight and authority on that matter? or does it not?

We have considered the marriage option but as you say, it's the financial constraints that would prove to be a very big barrier to overcome. Can the lump sum of money be a gift that has been in the bank for six months? As a last resort this may be possible (at a long shot).

This is really frustrating as we're not trying to hide anything, everything we've stated is true.

Edited August 21, 2012 by cptruff

[RAZZELL]

The gf returned from Germany in June and moved in with you in June?

I think applying for an "unmarried partner visa" one month after the two years is pushing it a bit. Although 2 years is the minimum the visa seems to be really "aimed" at people in long-term relationships with children etc who just haven't got married.

I would suggest getting married (with all that entails) or wait another 6 months or so and get some more paperwork in joint names.

RAZZ

Edited August 21, 2012 by RAZZELL

[cptruff]

she moved in with me in July

[cptruff]

I've just spoken to my landlord.

There is a very small chance that he has my tenancy agreement. If he can find it do you think that would make our appeal worth it?

[bobrussell]

I've just spoken to my landlord.

There is a very small chance that he has my tenancy agreement. If he can find it do you think that would make our appeal worth it?

Unless your gf's name is on it as well as yours it is only going to support the fact that you live there. Introducing new evidence is not really what the appeal system is about. It is there to allow correction of 'bad' decisions not to allow new evidence to be introduced.

As stated above the onus is on you to provide the evidence not for the ECO to ask for.

[7by7]

If she has been living there since July 2010, why isn't she on the tabien baan?

The wife isn't here to ask, but don't Thai ID cards show the holder's address?

Has she received absolutely no mail in the last two years?

[rawhod]

If she has been living there since July 2010, why isn't she on the tabien baan?

The wife isn't here to ask, but don't Thai ID cards show the holder's address?

Has she received absolutely no mail in the last two years?

There will be no Tabien Baan for the rented property for her to have her name on.

Thai ID cards do indeed show the holders address...However, this could be the family address and not the address where she lives.

When we bought our house before we married, they would not change my partners ID card address and said she should wait until it expired. When we married and she changed her surname, they then issued a new ID card with her new name and address.

My wife says that they would not change the Thai ID card address to that of a rented apartment.

[cptruff]

Pretty much as rawhod said, she's registered to her family home not this rented property.

We are going to appeal as our application was genuine and truthful.

Does anyone know how long on average an appeal takes?

Thanks

[beano2274]

A question arises from me - in the letter you submitted dated 28th June 2012 that you had been in a relationship for 2 years and 1 month, but reading it seems that she was in Germany at that time visiting her old boyfriend according to you. Don't you think that this is part of the reason the ECO rejected the application? maybe could be me seeing too much into it.

[cptruff]

I'm sure that is what happened.

I actually wrote the letter with the view that the ECO would be taking the dates from the date the visa was submitted (4th July). I wrote it in advance and looking back in hindsight I should have dated the letter in July. This is what I plan to explain in the appeal.

[bobrussell]

If I am reading this correctly your relationship started in July 2010 and therefore the trip to Germany which ended in June 2010 is completely irrelevant to the application. You had met before this but did not consider yourselves to be in a 'relationship'. If this is the case your presence (or absence) in Germany would be completely irrelevant.

This whole section of the reasoning would therefore be flawed to say the least.

The second part of the explanation for refusal is the failure to provide adequate evidence that you were living together at that address in a relationship. The ECO seems to have accepted that you live at the same address!

As a non-expert but someone of reasonable intelligence it appears to me that the ECO for whatever reason has become confused. If you can write a clear letter showing this part of the decision is incorrect it is a start. Perhaps the ECO detected what he or she thought was a clear error and it 'clouded' the judgement later. It is still down to the applicant to convince the ECO that there is a genuine relationship!

A successful appeal would certainly be cheaper than a new application and the old rules would apply. If the application especially the sponsors letter was confusing and hurried the ECO may have made an understandable decision based on the papers in front of him/her.

As there is so much at stake my advice would be to get expert, professional opinion before making a final decision. Without looking at the detailed paperwork submitted it is difficult for anyone to judge if the ECO was right, wrong or the application was inadequate.

Edited August 21, 2012 by bobrussell

[7by7]

If she has been living there since July 2010, why isn't she on the tabien baan?

There will be no Tabien Baan for the rented property for her to have her name on.

Pretty much as rawhod said, she's registered to her family home not this rented property.

My wife was living in rented property when we met and married and she had a tabien baan; unless I'm confusing the blue book she had and it's called something else. It was evidence she lived there, any way.

Moot point, though, as your girlfriend is registered elsewhere.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment:

You told the ECO in a letter dated 28th June 2012 that your relationship had started 25 months previously; when she was in Germany with a previous boyfriend. No wonder the ECO is suspicious about the validity of the relationship. That you now say that this was an error and the letter should have been dated 4th July 2012 wont wash; she signed a declaration that all the information contained in the application was correct. Even so, 25 months back from the 4th of July 2012 is 4th June 2010, when she was still in Germany.

Strictly speaking, Bob is correct and previous relationships should not be a factor; but you expect the ECO to believe that she returned from a 3 month trip to Germany with her German boyfriend and immediately began a relationship akin to marriage with you. Difficult to show; especially as you appear to have no evidence that she has been living with you.

Appeals are a lengthy process; you're probably looking at at least 6 months before it is heard. The appeal will only consider if the refusal was correct based upon the applicant's circumstances at the time. New evidence may be considered, but only if it pertains to those circumstances. You don't appear to have any evidence that she has been living with you in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the last two years; in which case the appeal is bound to fail.

But that is only my opinion based on the information you have provided. If considering an appeal you really should take professional advice.

But remember that she only has 28 days from the date of the refusal notice in which to submit her notice of appeal.

You may find Immigration and Asylum Tribunal guidance helpful.

[coolhandjoe]

If the appeal is unsucessful it will be held against her future applications.

[7by7]

Why do you say that?

What evidence do you have that this is so?

Each application, successful or not, is treated on it's own merits. That the applicant has been refused in the past, even if that refusal was appealed and the appeal rejected, should have no bearing on future applications.

Obviously, though, in any future application the reasons for refusal this time have to be dealt with or you'll just be refused again.

[cptruff]

It does appear that the ECO was confused, or I confused the ECO, so with a well explained letter I hope this becomes apparent in the appeal.

The proof of two years is the problem, as bobrussell said, the ECO accepts that we have been living together, neither did they question any other evidence that we submitted (relationship being real, my girlfriend's relationship with my parents, the fact that they've met etc etc).

We did submit a signed and translated letter from our landlord stating that we had been living together since July 2010, I really thought that would have carried weight as the landlord would be the real authority on the matter. On the letter were his contact details, I know the ECO is not obliged to but all it needed was a phone call to our landlord to confirm the contents of the letter.

Where we live is not a conventional apartment building. It is a very small development on a very small soi consisting of about 6 two storey, two room apartment/townhouse and some small bedsit rooms. There is no reception or no security guard and we get bills on standard receipt slips with no company header or the like, I pay our rent by transferring the money directly to my landlord's bank account. So it is in no way professionally run. My good friend and neighbour next door to me has lived in his place for about 6 years and he has never had a tenancy agreement either.

We obviously, in no way, wish to produce a doctored tenancy agreement so I hope to try and explain the above honestly with pictures of the whole place illustrating the above further explaining why there is no tenancy agreement and again referencing the letter with contact details from my landlord.

We are currently trying to think if there are any other ways we can prove the 2 years as well as the letter from the landlord.

Does that sound like the best course of action?

[simple1]

If you are obliged to reapply in six months why not get your partner to apply for a cable/satellite TV connection/internet account/mobile phone account billable monthly so you have/invoices/statements showing your address in her name? Also ask landlord for a new tenancy agreement that includes partners name. May need to provide a monetary incentive for landlord to do so

[cptruff]

Thanks for your suggestions simple1.

That is a good idea but it still wouldn't prove that we have been living together for 2 years in our appeal.

[7by7]

She was refused because

I am therefore not satisfied that you are the unmarried partner of a person present and settled in the UK or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement and the parties have lived together in a relationship akin to marriage for two years or more.

To explain this decision the ECO says:-

Her passport showed she was in Germany at the end of June 2010, yours showed you were in Thailand from April. Yet in the application you claimed the relationship started in June. You now say this was a mistake; but as said before it was your partner's responsibility to ensure that all the information in the application was accurate. She signed a declaration saying that this was so. You and she should have checked. I must say, too, it seems a very unlikely mistake; why say 'we have lived together for 25 months' when most people would say 'we have lived together since (date)'?

More importantly, as the refusal notice says, you have provided evidence that you live at the address but none at all that she does! Leaving aside whether she should have been on the tabien baan or not, she wasn't and that can't be changed, but did she receive absolutely no mail at all during the last two years?

It's your time, your money and I'm no expert on appeals; but based on everything you have said here, I cannot see any chance of an appeal based on "I put the wrong date on my letter" succeeding. You need solid evidence that for at least 24 months prior to the application you and she were living together in a relationship akin to marriage; you haven't got any.

Playing devils advocate again:

Due to the total lack of evidence of the two of you ever living together, a cynical person could think that you are merely friends and she wants to get to the UK for some reason. You having decided to return anyway say to her "I know, lets pretend we've been living together for 2 years so you can get an unmarried partner visa. When we're in the UK, we go our seperate ways."

The cynic says, "you have no evidence of this."

"But," you say "our landlord has written a letter saying we have!"

The cynical person would say that of course he has, after you slipped him a couple of hundred baht!

I am not, of course, saying that the above is anywhere near the truth or that I doubt you in any way. But you must admit, based on what you have said, it's easy to see why someone would think this.

Reading between the lines, it's what the ECO thinks!

You have to convince the tribunal that the ECO was wrong; The onus is on you, or rather the appellent, to convince the tribunal that the ECO was wrong; you don't have the evidence to do this.

[cptruff]

she came back at the start of June, not the end of June.

Is it so uncommon to state the duration of a relationship rather than give a start date?

[coolhandjoe]

Why do you say that?

What evidence do you have that this is so?

Each application, successful or not, is treated on it's own merits. That the applicant has been refused in the past, even if that refusal was appealed and the appeal rejected, should have no bearing on future applications.

Obviously, though, in any future application the reasons for refusal this time have to be dealt with or you'll just be refused again.

Sorry for the delay in replying.

The civil servant behind the counter at the British Embassy advised me/us not to make another application untill we had all the required info and documents as it would be held against us in any future applications if we were refused. - Personal experience.

Edited August 22, 2012 by 7by7
Duplicate quote removed

[7by7]

she came back at the start of June, not the end of June.

Is it so uncommon to state the duration of a relationship rather than give a start date?

Apols, I got the dates mixed up.

It still seems odd that having spent nearly the full 90 days allowed as a visitor in Germany with her German boyfriend she begins a relationship akin to marriage with you almost immediately on her return.

To be frank, saying you had been together for 25 months when 25 months back from the date of the letter she was in Germany and you in Thailand was very foolish! Maybe it's just me, but in your position in my sponsor's letter I would have said that I had known her November 2009 and she began living with me in July 2010, having ended the relationship with her German boyfriend whilst in Germany.

For any appeal to be successful you have to prove that you have been living together for at least two years and overcoming the inconsistencies in the dates mentioned in the refusal notice.

You say that your parents have met her. Was this while they were visiting you in Thailand, or has she been to the UK? If she has been to the UK, when was this and if it was in the last two years what address did she put on her visa application?

I may sound like I'm being very harsh; but every point I have made is one you will have to overcome if any appeal is to stand even the slightest chance of success.

[7by7]

If the appeal is unsucessful it will be held against her future applications.

Why do you say that?

What evidence do you have that this is so?

Each application, successful or not, is treated on it's own merits. That the applicant has been refused in the past, even if that refusal was appealed and the appeal rejected, should have no bearing on future applications.

Obviously, though, in any future application the reasons for refusal this time have to be dealt with or you'll just be refused again.

Sorry for the delay in replying.

The civil servant behind the counter at the British Embassy advised me/us not to make another application untill we had all the required info and documents as it would be held against us in any future applications if we were refused. - Personal experience.

Obviously a new application would not succeed unless all the points of refusal in the first had been adequately dealt with; whether the refusal was appealed and the appeal turned down or not appealed.

But, other than that, I am certain that having an application refused and/or an appeal rejected would not prejudice any future applications. Though I stand to be corrected on that by those more knowledgeable than I.

When was this? Applicants and/or sponsors have not been allowed into the embassy visa section for several years.

[theoldgit]

The civil servant behind the counter at the British Embassy advised me/us not to make another application untill we had all the required info and documents as it would be held against us in any future applications if we were refused. - Personal experience.

Do you really mean somebody in the upstairs counter at The British Embassy told you that, or do you mean somebody at VFS?

[cptruff]

she came back at the start of June, not the end of June.

Is it so uncommon to state the duration of a relationship rather than give a start date?

Apols, I got the dates mixed up.

It still seems odd that having spent nearly the full 90 days allowed as a visitor in Germany with her German boyfriend she begins a relationship akin to marriage with you almost immediately on her return.

To be frank, saying you had been together for 25 months when 25 months back from the date of the letter she was in Germany and you in Thailand was very foolish! Maybe it's just me, but in your position in my sponsor's letter I would have said that I had known her November 2009 and she began living with me in July 2010, having ended the relationship with her German boyfriend whilst in Germany.

For any appeal to be successful you have to prove that you have been living together for at least two years and overcoming the inconsistencies in the dates mentioned in the refusal notice.

You say that your parents have met her. Was this while they were visiting you in Thailand, or has she been to the UK? If she has been to the UK, when was this and if it was in the last two years what address did she put on her visa application?

I may sound like I'm being very harsh; but every point I have made is one you will have to overcome if any appeal is to stand even the slightest chance of success.

I appreciate you being frank, it does help a lot seeing both sides of the fence, so no problems there.

I do concede, believe me, that it was a foolish mistake in the letter and that I am currently kicking my self stupid over it. But it genuinely was an honest mistake, there was no attempt at all to pull the wool over the ECO's eyes. Hopefully a well explained letter can settle this part of the problem.

My parents met her when they came to visit us in Thailand November 2010 and November 2011, we submitted photographic evidence as well as copies of my parents' passports to prove this. Some of the pics were even at our house. Then again the ECO never questioned this.

Also I noticed in the letter that ECO concedes I have been living in my place since at least 2011 even though I submitted an internet bill dated Nov 2009, I've got another bill from Dec 2009 that I intend to send to set that straight. Still that does not solve the 2 year issue with my girlfriend.

What pains me is that if we had married 2 months before this application we most probably would have got it. We've tried to do this the genuine way (no visa marriage) and it has bitten us in the arse,

[marstons]

I got the join unmarried partner visa, i submitted over 60 supporting documnets, spents hours checking and cross checking, e mails, joint tenancy agreements, joint motorbike rental agreements, copy of neighbours passports with supporting signed letters we had been there neighbors for over 2 years and so on and so on. If everything is accurate and correct when put in front of them i think they give the visa's. i had already had a tourist visa 1 year before but that would carry no weight towards a 2 year relationship. when she went home to visit family we e mailed each other dated for over 2 years chatting about the house etc. dot the i's and cross the t's. Obviously now up hill battle.

We got the house rental agreement from office supplies as we did the motorbike retal agreement and just remeinded the people concerned the dates we took out the joint rental agreements, as they were not clear on it.

Also luckily i has started to keep paper copies of e mails from the start of the relationship, i wanted hard copy as yahoo etc can be unreliable. i copied them into notepad, so as not to use up so much ink with all ads etc on hotmail at the time. that way i could just show the important issues like dates and content.

Good Luck its a tough visa, and even immigration in UK struggled with it a few times.

[7by7]

I don't think that the ECO doesn't believe you and she are in a relationship; just that you have not been living in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the last two years.

The ECO also accepts that you have been living at your address for at least two years, providing evidence that you have lived there longer than this is pointless.

The issue is how long your girlfriend has lived there with you in a relationship akin to marriage; and you have absolutely no evidence, apart from a letter from your landlord, that she lives there at all.

From the refusal notice

However, you (your girlfriend, the applicant) have not submitted any substantive evidence with your name for that address to show that you have resided together for two years.

I asked before; has she not received any mail at all in the last two years? You haven't answered that question. Surely there must be something addressed to her if she has lived there that long?

On it's own, I doubt your landlord's letter and a letter from you basically saying 'sorry, I got the dates wrong in my sponsor's letter' will sway the tribunal in your favour. Unless you can up with something to show that she has indeed lived with you for at least two years, any appeal is going to be a waste of time, effort and money.

[cptruff]

Thanks marstons for the info.

We could definitely get signed letters and passport copies from my neighbour who has lived here for 6+ years.

7x7, no she hasn't had any mail here. I only get an internet bill monthly on, our rent invoices and receipts are put under our door which includes water and electricity, and neither of us get bank statements posted for the simple fact that you have to pay for those over here if you want them sent every month. I get important mail such as parcels from the UK delivered to my place of work because the post isn't that reliable because where we live isn't easy to find, I've had numerous post that has gone missing. I know this doesn't help the situation but it is what happens.

The problem is that over here things are a lot less official (notices of changes of address etc).

[cptruff]

Sorry to resurface this thread but I thought it might be useful for people who are waiting on an appeal.

We finally received the appeal decision which was dated 6th April 2013 and it was successful.

So that has been the best part of 9 months since we submitted the appeal.

As far as I can tell we have to wait for the Bangkok visa section to contact us and my (now) wife may have to go for another interview and do another TB test. If they go well then I think we get the visa.

Has anyone gone through this process before?

thanks.