Thailand Never Been Colonised - Fact Or Myth?

[harrry]

No one has yet mentioned the Treaty of Amity which stemmed from the support of the US in declaring that Thailand had not declared war.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Yes - it has been. One of the reasons though it never got the full India or Vietnam treatment though is that basically they have / had nothing worth taking. Nothing. It would have cost a conquering nation considerably more than they could plunder from Thailand so not worth the effort except for some of the opium provinces in the North which were swallowed up and today still form part of 2 other countries. It's just that from a national pride point of view they prefer to teach their kids (when they are in school and not in MBK knifing each other) that they were the worlds best negotiators, and that their people were so much more loyal to their country than other places that no country could defeat them. Pack of balls basically.

Because the British and the French already exported and profited so handsomely from all that rice grown in Burma, Malaysia and Indchina (respectively) that they obviously had absolutely no desire to access the Thai arable land, not to mention the fact that only an idiot would want to take advantage of a Malay - China and Burma - Indochina land route for trade when they can pay to support the shipping business and sail through pirate infested waters to give their navy something to do.

When the British and the French threatened to invade Thailand several times (usually about 'lack of free trade' - some things never change) they ended up seeing each other off, much to the relief of Thailand. It was all just for sh_ts and giggles anyway, they didn't want any of Thailand really.

Luckily, King Rama V was a skilled negotiator and surrendered some land to Britain and France so that any confrontations would be minimised - they had a few skirmishes with France but nothing much to talk about with the British. Thailand has a lot to thank their king for as had he taken a different path then Thailand might be very different today!!

[frimu]

What about the Burmese invasion of 1569 ? Wasnt "Thailand" technically a colony/vassal state of Burma for about 15 years, further were not the Khmers the orginal people of the area and the "Tai" people "invaded" from Southern China ?

I think the OP title is slightly incorrect, isnt Thailand claim to fame the fact they were never colonised by a western power, unlike what happened in Cambodia/Vietnam and Burma ie French and British

Thailand has most definitely been colonised

Yep, and Europe was colonised by the Roman empire if you wish to go back 2000 years. So how far back does it count as colonisation? I think the Khmer don't count! Too far in the past.

[Suradit69]

I think the Thais view the Japanese occupation as a 'temporarily permitted alliance'.

I guess one could also claim the UK was colonised by the Germans:

The Channel Islands were occupied by Nazi Germany for much of World War II, from 30 June 1940 until the liberation on 9 May 1945. The Channel Islands are two British Crown dependencies in the English Channel, near the coast of Normandy.

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment ...

[BuffaloRescue]

They werent colonised. They were invaded and conquered. Not colonised.

[cluby]

europe was ruled by romans but not really colonised since it was mainly a military and administration presence. We can draw a parallel between this old fashion military power and the new one : economic power. As someone said, Thailand has a vassal attitud, always choosing the good suzerain

[Psych01]

I think that some people on here have lost track of the original post,

Thailand Never Been Colonised - Fact Or Myth?.

The ranting and raving about British/French and USA/Japan/Thailand in WWII, is not the thread. ?!!! <deleted>

[sbk]

Oh dear oh dear, this is getting beyond nasty.

And its nice to see people rewrite history to suit their own needs and viewpoints. I am of a mind to simply close this poo flinging contest right now since there seems to be really very little of value left in it.

And indeed, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand so unless you want to go back to that it will be closed in 5

[chrisinth]

And Pattaya has been colonised by the Brits.

Pattaya has been colonized by the Russians, the days of the Brits are over

I like to think of it as a temporary occupation.................

Edit: @sbk Sorry, didn't know it had developed into this..............

Edited August 30, 2012 by chrisinth

[Psych01]

Oh dear oh dear, this is getting beyond nasty.

And its nice to see people rewrite history to suit their own needs and viewpoints. I am of a mind to simply close this poo flinging contest right now since there seems to be really very little of value left in it.

And indeed, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand so unless you want to go back to that it will be closed in 5

Well said SBK

[nosatisfaction]

Yes - it has been. One of the reasons though it never got the full India or Vietnam treatment though is that basically they have / had nothing worth taking. Nothing. It would have cost a conquering nation considerably more than they could plunder from Thailand so not worth the effort except for some of the opium provinces in the North which were swallowed up and today still form part of 2 other countries. It's just that from a national pride point of view they prefer to teach their kids (when they are in school and not in MBK knifing each other) that they were the worlds best negotiators, and that their people were so much more loyal to their country than other places that no country could defeat them. Pack of balls basically.

I often wondered why Thailand has never been colonized, either they are strong headed people or indeed there is noting worth colonizing, further i read about the 2nd WW, occupying a country is not the same as colonizing or collaborating, France did exactly the same in WW2.

just to inform you a bit more, Thailand was right in between countries colonized on 1 side by Britain on ther by France, so maybe a neutral space same like Switserland

[nosatisfaction]

And Pattaya has been colonised by the Brits.

Pattaya has been colonized by the Russians, the days of the Brits are over

I like to think of it as a temporary occupation.................

Edit: @sbk Sorry, didn't know it had developed into this..............

I have similar ideas about the Russian people, but nor Russian or any other people are occupying, merely sponsoring

[sbk]

Off topic post deleted

4

[sbk]

One more off topic post deleted. Keep it up boys...

3

[chiangmaikelly]

Colonised - No. Colonial powers used Thailand as a boundary between their power - to avoid conflicts between the colonial powers.

Occupied - Yes

There are two definitions of colonized the second being;

"Come to settle among and establish political control over (the indigenous people of an area)."

That will be the Japanese then. Still.

In 1940's did the Americans colonize the British? No of course not. Nor did the Japanese colonize the Thais. They were allies. The Thais agreed to let the Japanese use Thailand to attack both Singapore and Burma (probably dramatically changing the duration of WWII) for the land back that the Brits and French stole and the right to the opium production areas of Burma which Thailand increased from 9 to 36 tons per year.

Here are the actual facts:

In 1940, most of France was occupied by Nazi Germany, and Phibun immediately set out to avenge Siam's humiliations by France in 1893 and 1904, when the French had redrawn the borders of Siam with Laos and Cambodia by forcing a series of treaties. For that purpose, the Thai government needed Japanese assistance against France, which was secured through the Treaty between Thailand and Japan Concerning the Continuance of Friendly Relations and the Mutual Respect of Each Other's Territorial Integrity, concluded in June 1940. Also concluded in 1940 was the British-Thai Non-Aggression Pact between the governments of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Thailand. On July 18, 1940, the British government had accepted Japanese demands for closing the Burma Road for three months to prevent war supplies to China.^[1] As the government of Thailand was now becoming aligned with the Japanese, the British government concluded the pact with Bangkok so as not to antagonize Tokyo.

Luang Wichit wrote a number of popular dramas that glorified the idea of many ethnic groups belonging to one greater "Thai" empire and condemned the evils of European colonial rule. Irredentist and anti-French demonstrations were incessantly held around Bangkok, and in late 1940 border skirmishes erupted along the Mekong frontier. On January 9, 1941, Thailand attacked southern Vietnam, giving Tokyo a reason to move on Saigon (now Hồ Chí Minh City).^[2] In 1941, the skirmishes became a small–scale war between Vichy France and Thailand. The Thai forces dominated the war on the ground and in the air, but suffered a crushing naval defeat at the battle of Koh Chang. The Japanese then stepped in to mediate the conflict. The final settlement thus gave the disputed areas in Laos and Cambodia back to Thailand.

Phibun's prestige was so increased that he was able to bask in a feeling of being truly the nation's leader. As if to celebrate the occasion, he promoted himself to field marshal, skipping the ranks of lieutenant general and general.

This caused a rapid deterioration of relations with Britain and the United States. In April 1941 the United States cut off petroleum supplies to Thailand. Thailand's campaign for territorial expansion came to an end on December 8, 1941 when Japan invaded the country along its southern coastline and from Cambodia. After initially resisting, the Phibun regime allowed the Japanese to pass through the country in order to attack Burma and invade Malaya. Convinced by the Allied defeats of early 1942 that Japan was winning the war, Phibun decide to form an actualmilitary alliance with the Japanese.

As a reward, Japan allowed Thailand to invade and annex the Shan States and Kayah State in northern Burma, and to resume sovereignty over the sultanates of northern Malaya which had previously been lost in the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909 with Britain. In January 1942 Phibun declared war on Britain and the United States, but the Thai Ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver it to the State Department. Instead, Seni denounced the Phibun regime as illegal and formed a Seri Thai Movement in Washington. Pridi, by now serving in the role of an apparently powerless regent, led the resistance movement inside Thailand, while former Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the movement in Great Britain.

Secret training camps were set up, the majority by the populist politician Tiang Sirikhanth in the northeast region of the country. There were a dozen camps alone in Sakhon Nakhon Province. Secret airfields also appeared in the northeast, where Royal Air Force and United States Army Air Force planes brought in supplies, as well as Special Operations Executive, Office of Strategic Services, and Seri Thai agents, while at the same time evacuating out prisoners of war. By early 1945, Thai air force officers were performing liaison duties with South East Asia Command in Kandy and Calcutta.

By 1944 it was evident that the Japanese were going to lose the war, and their behaviour in Thailand had become increasingly arrogant. Bangkok also suffered heavily from Allied Strategic bombing. This, coupled with the economic hardship caused by the loss of Thailand's rice export markets, made both the war and Phibun's regime very unpopular. In July 1944 Phibun was ousted by the Seri Thai-infiltrated government. The National Assembly reconvened and appointed the liberal lawyer Khuang Aphaiwong as Prime Minister. The new government hastily evacuated the British territories that Phibun had occupied and surreptitiously aided the Seri Thai movement, while at the same time maintaining ostensibly friendly relations with the Japanese.

The Japanese surrendered on August 15, 1945. Immediately, the Allied military responsibility for Thailand fell to the British. As soon as practicable, British troops were flown in and these rapidly secured the release of surviving POWs. The British were surprised to find that the disarmament of the Japanese soldiers had already been largely completed by the Thais.

The British regarded Thailand as having been partly responsible for the immeasurable damage dealt upon the Allied cause and favoured treating the kingdom as a defeated enemy. However, the Americans had no sympathy for what they considered to be British and French colonialism and supported the new government. Thailand thus received little punishment for its wartime role under Phibun.

So, Thailand was ab absolute ally of Japan, until they realized that Japan was losing the war. Bottom line. They aided the Japanese throughout their war effort. Need I say more?

The above looks familiar. Is it 100% Wiki? Any way whoever wrote it forgot some things. Dec 14, 1945 Phibun had a meeting with the Japanese and signed a secret agreement to let the Japanese troops operate from Thailand. That is before the Japanese invaded not after as Wiki suggests. When the Japanese invaded Phibun was lost for a while. No one could find him. When they did he told everyone to stop fighting.

Then we got the declaration of war thing again. Anyone reading that can see it is a fib. The US froze the assets of all the Thai students and every other Thai in the US. Even Phibun's kid was going to school in the US (I think) and all of those Thai folks were all of a sudden out of money! You can see this. Thai kid on the Western Union line sending cables to mom and dad one per minute. Well they worked out a deal. The assets were unfrozen and the Free (Seri) Thai movement was born.

The US then traded its diplomats for the Thai diplomats and the kids who wanted to go home went.

The Brits didn't trust the Free Thai movement, so they told them not to do anything. And they didn't. Outside of attacking one small Japanese outpost and getting some flyers out of Thailand that's about all the Seri Thai did. Although they have done a good job of padding Wiki. The stories about the OSS in Thailand are almost as funny. The one about the Thais opening up with machine guns on American planes making supply drops for the Thais I always found interesting. The American planes got angry and shot back killing some Japanese andThais and almost hitting a Brit officer who had come to watch the drop.

The other part I found amusing is the Thais telling the Brits that 65% Indian troops was not acceptable for an occupation force. They said the Thai army wanted white soldiers or black American soldiers actually almost anything but Indian soldiers. The Brits of course told them to muck off.

http://worldwar2dayb...er-14-1941.html

"No G**-D***ed Thailander Can Be Trusted to Do a Job Without Getting Political Minded": The Free Thai Movement and the Politics of Independence During World War II

Nobchulee (Dawn) Maleenont

http://journals.chap...cle/view/56/240

[PDF] OSS and Free Thai Operations in World War II - CIA

[sbk]

Still trying to figure out how the last post has anything to do with the topic at hand

2

[Zorne]

I think the Thais view the Japanese occupation as a 'temporarily permitted alliance'.

Or a Visa overstay

[Chads]

Some Thai friends have told me Thailand has been taken over, economically and to many extents politically, by Chinese immigrants and Thais of Chinese descent.

[kennedy]

To all of the historians-How many Japanese soldiers deserted while in Thailand.

[chiangmaikelly]

Still trying to figure out how the last post has anything to do with the topic at hand

2

I believe it is the whole Japanese occupation/colonization thing. I don't think the thread would have been started without the references to WWII. If you read all of the references posted you will find that the Thais used WWII and the Free Thai movement as a domestic political discussion that had nothing whatsoever to do with any other countries. In other words they never ever saw WW II as a potential for becoming a colony of any other country even Japan. But you would not know that unless you read the posted references. I could quote them all but we are only supposed to only quote a couple of sentences I think.

Edited August 30, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[DGS1244]

Not colonised? with 40% of the population ethnic Chinese who is kidding who, and parliament 100% ethnic Chinese.

[sbk]

And my patience and tolerance for the whole Thai bashing/American bashing/Brit bashing is at its very uppermost limit. Yours smacked of that whole mindset.

If we can't keep this topic on topic without bashing someone I will be amazed. so far the countdown is at 2. One more guys and my limit will be reached. Please do bear that in mind when posting.

[ThomasIgoeJr]

All interesting reading. I am living and working here in Thailand where the younger school children still sing songs about the bombs falling from American planes during WWII. I live in an ancient capital city where there are and have been Chinese and Japanese people operating businesses. The Thai/Chinese and Thai/Japanese descendants have and always will influence what transpires both here locally and nationally. Thank you for the opportunity to express an 'observation'. ajtom

[StreetCowboy]

Not colonised? with 40% of the population ethnic Chinese who is kidding who, and parliament 100% ethnic Chinese.

I think you'll find the ethnic Chinese are as Thai as the next man, just as Daley Thompson was as British as the next man. I know racist vituperation is a core competency on this forum, but this is a nationalism thread, not a racism thread.

SC

[DaringBudsinMay]

Controlling western governments have learnt well just how the Japanese manipulated the masses. So with the threat, often alluded to as ‘The Domino Theory,’ the same powers of control were supported by both the Americans and British in order to stem communism in this country.

Edited August 30, 2012 by sbk
racist generalization removed

[GarryP]

Ants. Colonized by ants, and termites, and other social fauna.

[wirat69]

Thailand and Thai culture today are vastly different from 30 years ago.

The changes wrought in Thai society are not the work of Thai but more of American movies and TV, and furlough soldiers in Pattaya... and to a lesser extent the conduct of the diplomatic wives, particularly in Chiang Mai.

No need to change the government, just change the people....

The clock can not be turned back, so the rot continues. Shame really.

[paulswebb]

Try googling "boonpongsirivejjabhandu" and you read some facts not opinions, interesting stuff. Thai,s tend to be in denial or never read any history of this time.

[hookedondhamma]

I don't think they tend to be in denial; if anything it's because facts have been twisted this way and that, it's difficult to believe what should be believed (which is more than likely because facts have been twisted this way and that, making it difficult to believe what should be believed(which is more likely because ... ))

[pieandmash]

I think the Thais view the Japanese occupation as a 'temporarily permitted alliance'.

I guess one could also claim the UK was colonised by the Germans:

The Channel Islands were occupied by Nazi Germany for much of World War II, from 30 June 1940 until the liberation on 9 May 1945. The Channel Islands are two British Crown dependencies in the English Channel, near the coast of Normandy.

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment ...

The Channel Islands are not part of the UK.