Thai Face

[LaoPo]

being asian, and having lived and worked with white people for much of my life, i have concluded that white people are generally well meaning, but they are egotists and they let their opinions define themselves rather more than their actions. furthermore, they are pre-occupied with how their own opinions and lifestyles should be enforced on others. while asians understand that their position and obligations in life is defined in complex ways relative to the larger construct of their society and family, and behave accordingly in ways to fit in (including face-giving), white people are usually very one-dimensional and inflexible. the individualistic nature of white societies usually mean that kids are expected to be cast into the world when they are in the late teens, with parents not taking any responsibility thereafter. the culture of individual ego and the primacy of opinion in free white societies encourage superficial relationships in a me-first environment, so much so that often white people get estranged from their familial ties as they mature, and old white folks are forgotten and left to rot in institutions, looked after by the state, paid for by high welfare taxes that, in an ironical twist, force citizens to run away or otherwise get increasingly demoralised and left questioning the meaning of life.

so there, how's that for brushing you white people with a large brush of generalisation and half-truths?

Quite a brush indeed but in general I have to say that you're right, being a 'white' man myself, but spending half of my life in the Far East...

The light-, or darker brown and yellow people in the Asia/Far East have seen a sort of invasion by 'Whities/Farang' people, coming to their countries, with surprise but flexibel and a warm heart (of course: exceptions)...

Is there any other country or part of the world (of course smaller than Asia) where the 'Whities' can say the same?

LaoPo

[rishi]

A friend of mines dog barked at two Thai guys walking down the road and made one of them jump which in his mind made him lose face.

About thirty minutes later a pickup rolled to a halt outside the house, the window came down and the dog was shot in the neck, in front of my friend and her two daughters Bom (7) and Nong (5).

A commotion ensued and the police showed up, but this didn't stop the man shouting and swearing and promising he would return later to kill the other dog which had also barked.

The first dog died the next day and she had to give her other dog to a new home.

That's an example of Thai face for you.

That sound's more like an example of psychopathic tendancies than Thai face. I mean, if every Thai that jumped when they a dog barked at them then there wouldn't be any dogs in LOS.

I find Uma's 'case-story' a very good example of the importance of face to the Thais... Well, of cource, most Thais don't go around shooting neither dogs nor people - the payback usually is more subtle, but nevertheless - to do pay back might be more important to the Thai than his own (current) existence.

A necessary requirement for those of us who wants to make a successfull living in LOS is to understand - and accept - this importance Thais put into 'face'.

Edited January 31, 2006 by rishi

[dog412]

anyone against individual thought is a threat to human evolution. the longer it takes to right a wrong,the more time we lose in a necessarily changing world scenario. of course, the world could just unplug their computers,turn off their cell phones,and let any natural plague take it's course, why argue with nature?

[dog412]

being asian, and having lived and worked with white people for much of my life, i have concluded that white people are generally well meaning, but they are egotists and they let their opinions define themselves rather more than their actions. furthermore, they are pre-occupied with how their own opinions and lifestyles should be enforced on others. while asians understand that their position and obligations in life is defined in complex ways relative to the larger construct of their society and family, and behave accordingly in ways to fit in (including face-giving), white people are usually very one-dimensional and inflexible. the individualistic nature of white societies usually mean that kids are expected to be cast into the world when they are in the late teens, with parents not taking any responsibility thereafter. the culture of individual ego and the primacy of opinion in free white societies encourage superficial relationships in a me-first environment, so much so that often white people get estranged from their familial ties as they mature, and old white folks are forgotten and left to rot in institutions, looked after by the state, paid for by high welfare taxes that, in an ironical twist, force citizens to run away or otherwise get increasingly demoralised and left questioning the meaning of life.

so there, how's that for brushing you white people with a large brush of generalisation and half-truths?

[dog412]

apologize for second posting from the dude. i'm a bit new to this computer life. however, so called "obligations" installed by elder's from an even elder society,imposed on them, does not the future bode well. time is a factor in the equation. by setting the indivual free, that will the society survive. may intelligence set us free.

[Koratbound]

As an American, I feel it is my right to defend against "Dude's" stereotype.

Unfortunately, I agree with him for the most part.

While economically it is good/lucky to be born American, it does not make us better than anyone else.

But, most Americans have been brought up to think so. Same as most people have pride in the country they are from. The biggest difference is many Americans, mostly from the Northeast -New York City for example, will get in your face and tell you how much better they are than you. This tends to piss people off. Imagine that.

The family unit scenario Dude outlined is not far from the truth. I see it every day. My family would fall into that category easily. That is one of the reasons I am working on a plan to move to Thailand in the near future. While I like the money I can make in America, I have matured to the point where I value family more-so.

To sum up..... No one cultural style is best. A blending of styles is always the way to go. Everyone should have tolerance for things they may not understand. Just because someone acts differently than you does not make them wrong, just different.

KB

[steveromagnino]

While economically it is good/lucky to be born American, it does not make us better than anyone else.

But, most Americans have been brought up to think so. Same as most people have pride in the country they are from. The biggest difference is many Americans, mostly from the Northeast -New York City for example, will get in your face and tell you how much better they are than you. This tends to piss people off. Imagine that.

Wise words. You are very lucky to be born in USA though, and when you come from a country that has acheived a lot, well it isn't that surprising that some would be pretty proud of that. Pride doesn't always better, but then again like you say most people would say that about where they are born.

not sure why but many New Yorkers I've met for the most part are a bit more serious than many other Americans and as a result can be made to jump through hoops and rise to various taunts on a regular basis; maybe there is something in the water there, the lack of holidays and breaks or maybe it is the bagels.... Compared to the rest of America, while I cannot easily pick out most people by the way they behave, the New Yorkers seem to be a bit more stressed than the rest of thr country..... and some are awfully proud of their way of life.

[kat]

Yes, as a New Yorker who identifies as such more than as an American, I can definitely attest to the above; it's all true. Nothing is going to change the fast-talking, fast-walking, and fast-thinking mechanisms in my DNA - they are hardwired for life. I have learned a lot more self-control in LOS though, and don't actually express what I'm seriously thinking when I go to an upscale Italian restaurant in Bangkok, and the garlic bread comes out well after the pasta dishes. And you know what, I'm not going to apologize for it either, because that is still inexcusable.

But hey, I'm honest. I know who I am and where I'm from, and how it compares. I know the strengths and weaknesses about where I'm from, and can tell the difference between my own sentimentality, cultural quirks, and objective comparisons.

And I need to tell you, that anyone who says there is no such difference between Western values and Eastern values, no difference between hemispheres, so to speak, is a ###### liar or totally clueless.

So do you consider an intolerance for bullshit to be in your face? Well, there you have it. I'll have you know, that New Yorker's and the other parts of the Northeast with a concentration of highly educated people such as Boston voted against George W. overwhelmingly.

So, we aren't all that bad. And we also know how to tip, even when the service is less than inspiring

[OZONE]

A friend of mines dog barked at two Thai guys walking down the road and made one of them jump which in his mind made him lose face.

About thirty minutes later a pickup rolled to a halt outside the house, the window came down and the dog was shot in the neck, in front of my friend and her two daughters Bom (7) and Nong (5).

A commotion ensued and the police showed up, but this didn't stop the man shouting and swearing and promising he would return later to kill the other dog which had also barked.

The first dog died the next day and she had to give her other dog to a new home.

That's an example of Thai face for you.

That has nothing to do with FACE. Its called STUPIDITY or IGNORANT.

[Pepe']

I can asure you "face" is alive.

Check "This concept of Face" thread, it goes into a lot of detail...

[greenwanderer108]

and the garlic bread comes out well after the pasta dishes. And you know what, I'm not going to apologize for it either, because that is still inexcusable.

So, we aren't all that bad. And we also know how to tip, even when the service is less than inspiring

And these values are important in Thailand because???

Next time the Itallian rest. in Bangkok doesn't meet your standards, blow the lid...let em have it.. Tell them where you're from and that it's unacceptable. When all is done and said, tip them generously.

[Losangels]

I normaly do not tip if the food or service is poor. I used to complain about it when I first start living here however I found out that it doesn't make any difference, therefore I just do not go back anymore. What annoys me is that some of these places have the tip automatic added to the bill.

[steveromagnino]

Yes, as a New Yorker who identifies as such more than as an American, I can definitely attest to the above; it's all true. Nothing is going to change the fast-talking, fast-walking, and fast-thinking mechanisms in my DNA - they are hardwired for life. I have learned a lot more self-control in LOS though, and don't actually express what I'm seriously thinking when I go to an upscale Italian restaurant in Bangkok, and the garlic bread comes out well after the pasta dishes. And you know what, I'm not going to apologize for it either, because that is still inexcusable.

But hey, I'm honest. I know who I am and where I'm from, and how it compares. I know the strengths and weaknesses about where I'm from, and can tell the difference between my own sentimentality, cultural quirks, and objective comparisons.

And I need to tell you, that anyone who says there is no such difference between Western values and Eastern values, no difference between hemispheres, so to speak, is a ###### liar or totally clueless.

So do you consider an intolerance for bullshit to be in your face? Well, there you have it. I'll have you know, that New Yorker's and the other parts of the Northeast with a concentration of highly educated people such as Boston voted against George W. overwhelmingly.

So, we aren't all that bad. And we also know how to tip, even when the service is less than inspiring

Wise words Kat; the more we can see ourselves, the more we can behave in ways most beneficial to us in the long run. Problem is, it takes some time to see the benefits and the flaws in the way we did things back home; once we can see what is actually best, and we know the best way to explain that to the place we now live....well we can get something done about it!

There is a wealth of academic research about cultural values such as the Hofstede stuff where all the differences in core values of different cultures is explained. And from that, we start to understand why Japanese and Thai people behave sometimes so differently to some western groups. And of course, western countries; well within even USA you have massive differences in how rural vs. urban people behave, east coast west coast and so on. Having been lucky to work there, I'd say that your first paragraph is pretty much how I saw the NY people; and working in a hotel it didn't exactly make me like some of them! But then when snowboarding and getting the chance to talk economics with another NYer who was an economics professor at NYU I think it was....well that was a stroke of luck and one of the nicest things about NYers is that everyone has an opinion about almost everything, so there is never a quiet moment.... the ayatollah approach to pushing their own point of view though is kind of interesting; I always wondered whether it was becase they thought I was an idiot foreigner, or because it was only a small sample.... it seemed like a conversation was each person pushing an opinion, with the debate aspect consisting of each person backing up their own POV rather than much sythesis.... is that another NY thing>?

I feel like I know NY; I have heard of:

- the trendy meat packing district

- Tribeca

- upper east side intellectuals

- two bagel places;-)

- bagging republicans (other than your ex mayor ;-)

Is there any more to the city than this??!

The key thing about face is not to try to pretend you can operate without the concept here; that isn't going to happen. The key is to understand what it is all about whether one believes in the concept or not. Attributing things like the dog story to 'saving face' is not IMHO what it is about; that's about some idiots with a problem with a barking dog who have more bullets than sense.

[Bangkok Barry]

Asians would loose face by admitting they are wrong or they don't know the answer to something.

In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

We call it maturity.

[gurkle]

Asians would loose face by admitting they are wrong or they don't know the answer to something.

In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

We call it maturity.

So what do you call it when you insult an entire race of people you desperately want to be a part of?

[Sheryl]

The biggest difference is many Americans, mostly from the Northeast -New York City for example, will get in your face and tell you how much better they are than you. This tends to piss people off. Imagine that.

We don't think we're better than people from other countries...we just think we're WAY better than the rest of the U.S.A.

Only partly kidding...NYC is one of the, if not the, most culturally diverse palces on earth. People from every country imaginable are there, every language is spoken there, every cuisine is available -- authentic and cooked by someone newly arrived from its land of origin. And New Yorkers are extremely tolerant -- even proud and fond of -- this diversity.

But everything has it limits, and out cultural tolerance stops short of the US "heartland". (We also like to put down California a lot, but that's a sort of friendly kidding)....

Going back to the initial "face"issue, as I believe in trying to pick the best from each culture...we should strive to "give face"like a Thai but to not care about having (our own) face like a Westerner. (ideal Thai and ideal Westerner, of course...in any culture there are people who fail to live up to the cultural ideal.)

[slimdog]

Well done Sheryl. After reading all the coments about Thai Face, I was wondering if anyone would remember that Face has two sides. It's not all about losing Face. Millions of times a day throughout the country, people are doing good deeds for others, sometimes to gain Face for themselves, sometimes for their companies, sometimes for their families or friends.

[dog412]

i'm afraid that those belonging to the so-called"lower echelon" of the economic spectrum are getting the short end of stick. asking questions about issues that affect their situation should be encouraged,not disheartened. question's require answers, and public service should be agreeable to provide them. having read all posting on this thread, i still feel as this "face culture" is being manipulated to the advantage of those in a position to get away with whatever.

[kat]

and the garlic bread comes out well after the pasta dishes. And you know what, I'm not going to apologize for it either, because that is still inexcusable.

So, we aren't all that bad. And we also know how to tip, even when the service is less than inspiring

And these values are important in Thailand because???

Next time the Itallian rest. in Bangkok doesn't meet your standards, blow the lid...let em have it.. Tell them where you're from and that it's unacceptable. When all is done and said, tip them generously.

I was waiting for some curmudgenonly soul to make an obvious, predicatable comment, and you fit the bill quite nicely. I was merely taking the piss out of being a spoiled New Yorker here (when it comes to the restaurant business), and going out to eat out in a "fine" restaurant here in BKK. If you want more serious comments about the issues of governance, human trafficking, gender violence, and mai bpen rai, please feel free to check my other comments

And by the way, the garlic bread comment is also about competency and taking pride in one's work. But mostly, it's about common sense. I think the biggest drawback of face is that it never corrects flawed thinking or behaviour. If you arrange the capital to open a restaurant and hire staff, they should at least be capable of handling some of the most simplest functions of service delivery of that cuisine - don't 'ya think? Serving bread after pasta and salads is like serving curry without rice until 30 minutes later. Would that be ok if it were your business? Nevermind. Mai bpen rai. Don't want anyone to lose face over it.

And by the way, I always do tip, regardless. Maybe that's a New York habit I ought to discontinue.

Wise words Kat; the more we can see ourselves, the more we can behave in ways most beneficial to us in the long run. Problem is, it takes some time to see the benefits and the flaws in the way we did things back home; once we can see what is actually best, and we know the best way to explain that to the place we now live....well we can get something done about it!

There is a wealth of academic research about cultural values such as the Hofstede stuff where all the differences in core values of different cultures is explained. And from that, we start to understand why Japanese and Thai people behave sometimes so differently to some western groups. And of course, western countries; well within even USA you have massive differences in how rural vs. urban people behave, east coast west coast and so on. Having been lucky to work there, I'd say that your first paragraph is pretty much how I saw the NY people; and working in a hotel it didn't exactly make me like some of them! But then when snowboarding and getting the chance to talk economics with another NYer who was an economics professor at NYU I think it was....well that was a stroke of luck and one of the nicest things about NYers is that everyone has an opinion about almost everything, so there is never a quiet moment.... the ayatollah approach to pushing their own point of view though is kind of interesting; I always wondered whether it was becase they thought I was an idiot foreigner, or because it was only a small sample.... it seemed like a conversation was each person pushing an opinion, with the debate aspect consisting of each person backing up their own POV rather than much sythesis.... is that another NY thing>?

I feel like I know NY; I have heard of:

- the trendy meat packing district

- Tribeca

- upper east side intellectuals

- two bagel places;-)

- bagging republicans (other than your ex mayor ;-)

Is there any more to the city than this??!

The key thing about face is not to try to pretend you can operate without the concept here; that isn't going to happen. The key is to understand what it is all about whether one believes in the concept or not. Attributing things like the dog story to 'saving face' is not IMHO what it is about; that's about some idiots with a problem with a barking dog who have more bullets than sense.

I enjoyed your post Steve. Thanks for your comments about face. And to answer your question - yes, there is a lot more to NYC than that, just like there is a lot more to Bangers than people out to scam your money.

The biggest difference is many Americans, mostly from the Northeast -New York City for example, will get in your face and tell you how much better they are than you. This tends to piss people off. Imagine that.

We don't think we're better than people from other countries...we just think we're WAY better than the rest of the U.S.A.

Only partly kidding...NYC is one of the, if not the, most culturally diverse palces on earth. People from every country imaginable are there, every language is spoken there, every cuisine is available -- authentic and cooked by someone newly arrived from its land of origin. And New Yorkers are extremely tolerant -- even proud and fond of -- this diversity.

But everything has it limits, and out cultural tolerance stops short of the US "heartland". (We also like to put down California a lot, but that's a sort of friendly kidding)....

Going back to the initial "face"issue, as I believe in trying to pick the best from each culture...we should strive to "give face"like a Thai but to not care about having (our own) face like a Westerner. (ideal Thai and ideal Westerner, of course...in any culture there are people who fail to live up to the cultural ideal.)

Thanks for your wise words about face Sheryl. Ha, ha - another New Yorker.

[Bangkok Barry]

Asians would loose face by admitting they are wrong or they don't know the answer to something.

In the West, most (not all) can admit their mistakes and learn from them, and accept if they are wrong.

We call it maturity.

So what do you call it when you insult an entire race of people you desperately want to be a part of?

I'm not sure from your response whether you are accusing me personally of insulting a race, and that I personally desperately want to be a part of it. If so, you are wrong on both counts.

First, in the West, it is young children who lie to your face to cover up their embarrassment, but they tend to grow out of it. Some don't, and resort to violence as a response to be caught out. But denying a truth and refusing to see and accept you are wrong is just plain childish, no matter what race you come from. It means you are emotionally immature, and expect if you ignore something it will go away. As it might do, temporarily, and you can pretend to yourself that all is harmonious while both parties know that it isn't. Because ignoring or denying a problem doesn't solve it. The phrase 'Sticking your head in the sand' comes to mind.

As for being a part of a race, I have travelled for the past 20 years, 6-9 months a year, mixing with people from perhaps 20 different nations each week as part of my job. And one thing that has taught me is that nationalism is mostly pointless at best and destructive at worst. It's fine at the Olympics and other sporting events unless it gets out of hand, as it does at some soccer matches. But what my travels have taught me is that basically everyone is the same - mothers want to look after their kids, fathers want to earn a living. That's the bottom line. An eskimo or someone living in an African village have the same desires. Somehow, religion and politicians screw it all up. And so does some nation imagining it is better than any other. So, I'm not desperate to part of any particular race, thanks.

[Sheryl]

Let's not confuse refusing to acknowledge and correct one's mistakes with doing so but in a different way.

The former occurs everywhere, by people who are immature & egotistical. I'm not sure that the Thais are any more or less prone to this than any other nationality. (I would have to say, though, that it is all too common among Cambodian males -- which in fact explains some of their tragic recent history).

Where the confusion comes in is that the appropriate ways to let someone know they've made a mistake or inconvenienced some, and the appropriate way for that person to convey regrets varies greatly by culture.

In most "Western' cultures the appropriate way is more or less direct, and the appropriate response is a direct acknowledgement and apology.

In Thailand this is not the case. There are appropriate ways to communicate displeasure or point out error, but they are much more indirect and require that care be given not to publicly embarass te individual nor have a confrontation. Subtle cues, or use of a middleman are the usual approach, and once you learn to do that it works quite well. It is a given that the person involved will be sorry to learn they have erred (unless they are annunusually insensitive sort, in which case they're by definition noit a "proper"Thai); apology is not done. The person simply corrects their behavior in the future and both parties act like the original problem never happened. (In very subtle ways -- facial expressions, tone of voice -- a osrt of apology is there. But not directly spoken).

This is the culturally sanctioned Thai way, and it works just fine with most Thais. Of course there are exceptions, but every culture has its clods.

The hard part for us farang is to learn this system and use it and let go of our deeply ingrained sense that direct apology is important.

Neither way is "right"or "wrong". They're just different. It's natural to have a preference for the way one grew up with, but when one other people's turf we must play by their rules. But the fact that the rules are different doesn't mean that the goals of the game aren't the same, or that you can't manage to achieve your aims. You can, you just have to do it Thai style.

[steveromagnino]

The hard part for us farang is to learn this system and use it and let go of our deeply ingrained sense that direct apology is important.

Sheryl!!! Yes, that is it exactly! In my blithering blather for page after page, you have managed to summarise what I tried to define by could not.

It is the way the being wrong is expressed, confronted and corrected that is different, rather than the issue of 'the older person is never wrong' or 'the younger person is always wrong' and so on....

I've been thinking about this for a while over the weekend, and you've summed it up :-)

Maybe you should work as my brain for a while

[Sir Burr]

So far, I have resisted the temptation to post as I have strong views on "face", but, I can't hold-out any longer.

From what is being said, am I to understand that problems are recognized and fixed in different, more subtle ways?

If this was true, you would see problems getting fixed, albeit at a slower pace than if you took the Western way.

Sorry, I don't see problems getting fixed. As far as the Thai's I have to deal with, there is no problem in the first place, or, rather they refuse to recognise the problem, even though it's staring them in the face (no pun intended).

When building my house, there were the usual mistakes and errors. I tried it the Thai way. Smile, don't blame anybody, quiet word to the boss etc. Wife telling me not to make a fuss. It got me nowhere. All I got was excuses, or, the answer "Thai style".

Finally did it the farang way. Pointed the finger, did a bit of screaming and shouting, threatened to with-hold payment and lo and behold, the problems got fixed, even though the workers had faces like smacked bums and I got the reputation as "The Prince of Darkness".

As far as I'm concerned, I have no face to lose. Couldn't give a toss how I'm thought of as long as the problem is rectified. I never have to see those workers again in my lifetime, so why should I worry what they still think of me?

In another instance, a Thai tried to rip me off for some money. I stayed cool and calm, smiled and pointed out his errors. Didn't get me anywhere.

Lost my temper and threatened him with the police and got my money back immediately.

Have read on some thread that if a farang tries to do it the Thai way, he is always the loser. I agree with that sentiment.

It has taken me years to convince my wife that it is stupid to make yourself poor by making yourself look rich.

Recently gave 250,000 bht to the inlaws to buy a car. I was expecting them to buy a second-hand truck. You can get a very good one for that price.

But no, not enough face to be gained in the village. They put it as a down-payment on a brand new Toyota Vigo and have put themselves in hock every month for the next five years. Have told them that they won't get a single baht more from me.

I know what is going to happen. Within the next year or so, the truck will get reposessed and they'll end up with nothing. All because of face.

Honestly, I have tried it the Thai way and they just saw it as an opportunity to take advantage. I'm not insensitive to people's feelings and always try being nice first. It never works.

Face holds this country back.

Face stops the poor from demanding their rights, like good education.

Face keeps the corrupt power brokers entrenched and immune to the justice system.

Face stops the recognition and rectification of all sorts of problems.

I could go on for hours about this subject.

Rant over.

[kat]

I've listened to what both Sheryl and Steve have said, and they both have very good comments, and good explanations. I used the "correct Thai approach" whenever I can.

But I have to admit, my experience echoes Sir Burr's sentiments and experiences. Lately, I have reached the exact same conclusion, without conferring with anyone: my willingness to go along with the Thai way has been interpreted as weakness. It serves me well with small, inconsequential and anonymous transactions, but not with the ones that matter: employment and financial. I have had small amounts withheld from me by my landlord, because I'm sure she thinks I didn't notice that I gave her extra baht for the rent (which was in reality an advance payment for the utilities). It was merely trust that she would do the right thing. Of course, when I mention this to the building manager, there is never any recollection. It is only 1,000 baht, so it's fine. But the point is, I'm damned if I was to pursue this to a logical conclusion, and I'm damned if I don't, because they interpret this as stupidity.

And, in every situation I've seen, and every Thai person I've talked to, it is widely accepted that senior people on the job are never wrong or contradicted. That doesn't mean that subordinates will follow everything that is said, but then that isn't exactly dealing with issues, is it?

*Sometimes this approach means they will go off and do it another way, which isn't exactly the best way to approach things either, but very often they just follow instructions and commands to the letter, with no discussion.

** And by the way, I've seen how real hi-so people deal with confrontational issues. They are not necessarily subtle, either. They treat these things as their due, and their very tone makes it clear who is in the higher position. Sometimes, I see open contempt, or horrible attitudes that are directed to subordinates, that would never be respected or tolerated in the West.

I think it is because status is an issue here that determines who can openly question, and who cannot, and that is directly linked to how issues are resolved concerning face. Since farangs or Westerners are not a part of this overt equation, there is more room for them to disregard us when we use the "Thai way".

Edited February 6, 2006 by kat

[Patex]

So far, I have resisted the temptation to post as I have strong views on "face", but, I can't hold-out any longer.

From what is being said, am I to understand that problems are recognized and fixed in different, more subtle ways?

If this was true, you would see problems getting fixed, albeit at a slower pace than if you took the Western way.

Sorry, I don't see problems getting fixed. As far as the Thai's I have to deal with, there is no problem in the first place, or, rather they refuse to recognise the problem, even though it's staring them in the face (no pun intended).

When building my house, there were the usual mistakes and errors. I tried it the Thai way. Smile, don't blame anybody, quiet word to the boss etc. Wife telling me not to make a fuss. It got me nowhere. All I got was excuses, or, the answer "Thai style".

Finally did it the farang way. Pointed the finger, did a bit of screaming and shouting, threatened to with-hold payment and lo and behold, the problems got fixed, even though the workers had faces like smacked bums and I got the reputation as "The Prince of Darkness".

As far as I'm concerned, I have no face to lose. Couldn't give a toss how I'm thought of as long as the problem is rectified. I never have to see those workers again in my lifetime, so why should I worry what they still think of me?

In another instance, a Thai tried to rip me off for some money. I stayed cool and calm, smiled and pointed out his errors. Didn't get me anywhere.

Lost my temper and threatened him with the police and got my money back immediately.

Have read on some thread that if a farang tries to do it the Thai way, he is always the loser. I agree with that sentiment.

It has taken me years to convince my wife that it is stupid to make yourself poor by making yourself look rich.

Recently gave 250,000 bht to the inlaws to buy a car. I was expecting them to buy a second-hand truck. You can get a very good one for that price.

But no, not enough face to be gained in the village. They put it as a down-payment on a brand new Toyota Vigo and have put themselves in hock every month for the next five years. Have told them that they won't get a single baht more from me.

I know what is going to happen. Within the next year or so, the truck will get reposessed and they'll end up with nothing. All because of face.

Honestly, I have tried it the Thai way and they just saw it as an opportunity to take advantage. I'm not insensitive to people's feelings and always try being nice first. It never works.

Face holds this country back.

Face stops the poor from demanding their rights, like good education.

Face keeps the corrupt power brokers entrenched and immune to the justice system.

Face stops the recognition and rectification of all sorts of problems.

I could go on for hours about this subject.

Rant over.

I liked Sheryls post, specially the part steveromagnino pointed out. This is the way I try to act with people and friends.

If it costs our money I do it my way, first friendly, than lesser friendly, at last I/we make me/us very clear.

Works allways fine for us .

Btw, Thais know how a farang thinks and if money is involved they can "switch" easily

[Sir Burr]

Since farangs or Westerners are not a part of this overt equation, there is more room for them to disregard us when we use the "Thai way".

Bingo, Kat.

I doesn't matter how well we speak Thai, or, how familiar we are with the culture. We will never be seen as anything but a foreigner by Thais, so, interaction is always Thai to foreigner.

[kat]

It's very true. We are at a disadvantage when we try to use Thai logic or the Thai way, because there are unspoken things in that logic of which we are usually not aware. They can dance around and dodge the issue as they see fit; doesn't work.

In the scenario that Steve mentioned - the one with the police - it might work to let them return something previously stolen, without pointing fingers. But in the case of foreigners, how do we know who is linked or friendly with the police or each other? And by the way, to whom exactly where they returning this stolen merchandise (persons or associates) -- THAT is the real issue here.

[gurkle]

I liked Sheryls post, specially the part steveromagnino pointed out. This is the way I try to act with people and friends.

If it costs our money I do it my way, first friendly, than lesser friendly, at last I/we make me/us very clear.

Works allways fine for us .

Btw, Thais know how a farang thinks and if money is involved they can "switch" easily

Agreed. There's a difference between being polite and being a pushover.

Edited February 6, 2006 by gurkle

[steveromagnino]

Since farangs or Westerners are not a part of this overt equation, there is more room for them to disregard us when we use the "Thai way".

Bingo, Kat.

I doesn't matter how well we speak Thai, or, how familiar we are with the culture. We will never be seen as anything but a foreigner by Thais, so, interaction is always Thai to foreigner.

I can't comment on this, because for the most part, I do pass in certain situations as being 'Thai' and therefore there are certain expectations placed on me; whereas at certain times I can get away with perhaps a little more as Thai people don't always expect me to follow their norms as a 1/2 born and bred abroad.

The issue of face; addressing someone sharply does not cause you to lose face. If pushed hard enough by incompetence and stupidity, there is a point reached eventually where confrontation occurs. And at that point, someone loses face, and it MAY be the older person. The issue of the consequence of this is longer term than in a western country IMHO, because people here sometime remember and can have a grudge against the person that made them embarrassed in front of everyone for a long time. This is the 'nuclear option' and rest assured it is used by Thais, but it is used far later than a similar situation in the west. However, yelling and losing temper looks pretty bad in any country; I often wonder whether people I've seen losing their temper here and elsewhere have any idea how bad they look to everyone around them.

The issue of putting someone in their place: the only times I can say I have been well and truly put in my place were in USA, working in a resort in California; as I recall on one occasion I was sworn at and told that I could be bought many times over by the person involved (apparently this must be some sort of insult there); they had failed to make a reservation and the hotel was full; it wasn't like yelling at me could fix it, but nevertheless they did. This is the time that caring about face would have been useful for them. As it turned out I could have referred them to another hotel which I knew was empty. Obviously I did not. However, jerks come in all nationalities; I would say that many of the high society people here are very good hearted; many others are the most horrid people you would ever meet.

The issue of materialism: this is one component of face; if you give someone money for nothing, almost anywhere, if they are smart with money they would probably have had the money already and wouldn't need yours. Easy come easy go; and sadly our King's message of self sufficiency and living within our means gets overshadowed by the desire to show off and spend in some circles. That is a sad element of materialism, rather than face alone; in fact the whole concept of the luxury industry is based on looking different and better than the people around you. Creating that point of difference is certainly not unique to Thailand; examine LVMH sales figures worldwide; or look at the hi so expat back tie functions or the desire of many expats to get into the right circles; materialism and being a snob are far from Thai or Asian only values. However, I will certainly agree it is more prevalent, and particularly sad to see; IMHO it makes the people involved seem like the loser sell out Chinese society in HK trying to be more aristocratic British than the English themselves

The issue of why things don't get fixed: there are a ton of reasons behind this; and I don't think face is a major one. I actually think that fixing or confrontation are work, and with low pay and a multitude of systematic problems, that the job is too big for one person to fix, therefore it is easier to just not bother. Exactly the same as, let's see, almost every government owned telephone company pre deregulation, most state owned enterprises, most monopoly companies, and so on.

I prefer to think the issue of questioning and challenging the status quo is the major issue. This includes the people in power of course. In New Zealand, most people don't believe most of what they hear from the politicians, and don't trust what they do believe. The govt has sold most things off, so they don't actually do that much compared to here either. However with questioning, comes the requirement for knowledge and education, which is lacking in a developing country, as would be expected. Isaan is where the election is won and lost; and the govt can win the seats there as simply as buying them, because most people in that area value the money more than the long term benefit of good govt; and incidentally the track record of every govt since the 30s has been to basically rape and pillage Isaan without investing anything in development there. Therefore, the issue in my mind is how can you provide people with the education to question and probe while still acting within the parameters of letting people keep face and dignity where appropriate? I simply don't feel that 'face' is the reason why people don't confront problems, it is often either not caring enough or lack of knowledge to know how to fix it. Education and sharing rewards answer both. And the problems are most prevalent in the civil service and bureaucracy as is the case worldwide. If 'face' is the problem, then please explain why Japanese and their export economy produces some of the most innovative products with a host of market leaders who have gained their leadership in industries like auto which are not exactly easy industries to compete in. Or Korea...sometimes referred to as the country in Asia where face is most important - it is developing very quickly.

I have heard the same thing about greng jai; that this is the reason Thailand has not developed. That is something I totally disagree with, but someone coming from a country where the individual and individuality is most important just cannot get the concept of greng jai and its importance here.

We should not dismiss the concept as a result of a few idiots (builders, politicians, etc) who abuse the system. I can name countless idiots from almost every country who have done all the things that will probably be held up as evidence as to why 'face' is so bad...in countries where 'face' is not important at all alledgedly. I say alledgedly, because the west I've seen (perhaps as a slight outsider) also has 'face'; the reason the boss speaks last at a presentation is so s/he doesn't overlook something that his/her juniors might see - s/he has to look like an expert - if this isn't 'face' I am not sure what is.

The key to development is the middle road. The concepts of face and greng jai are both good. To do away with them completely would indeed provide massive freedom to do anything, but it would also IMHO result in a loss of respect for others, and a loss of respect in important institutions.

With going too far to not respecting anything, then we end up with graffitti, urban hooligans, chav culture and so on. We also have no guarantees that the politicians will look after us any better than they do now. Finally, I think the concept of respecting others and giving people face, and behaving in a way that earns us face through our actions (and not through our new Vigos :-) is vital in a country where everyone is packed together.

I be well liking this thread :-) Great comments on both sides I think, and the gap in the middle is not that far I think...

[jing jing]

... The key to development is the middle road. The concepts of face and greng jai are both good. To do away with them completely would indeed provide massive freedom to do anything, but it would also IMHO result in a loss of respect for others, and a loss of respect in important institutions.

With going too far to not respecting anything, then we end up with graffitti, urban hooligans, chav culture and so on. We also have no guarantees that the politicians will look after us any better than they do now. Finally, I think the concept of respecting others and giving people face, and behaving in a way that earns us face through our actions (and not through our new Vigos :-) is vital in a country where everyone is packed together.

To paraphrase another member's tagline -- I can dig what you're saying with a chrome plated shovel, dude.

I haven't been here that long but it seems to me that as long as you understand the rules of the game (which are far more subtle and nuanced than in relatively "young" Western cultures like the USA), there are more potential benefits to having the notions of face, num jai, and greng jai than there are detriments. They make life more civil and enjoyable for all, if properly exercised.

The USA and Europe may have higher per capita incomes than does less-developed Thailand but I doubt they have higher "happiness quotients" (for lack of a better term), and isn't it the pursuit of happiness - not wealth - that merits a mention in none other than the American Declaration of Independence?