The Karma Of An Immoral Life

[camerata]

One of my colleagues recently gave me a book and CD called "The Ordination" which she got from Wat Dhammakaya. It's quite a handy little guide to ordination, although there is some mention of "guardian deities" and "angels."

I noticed it was published by a group called "The Writers and Thinkers for World Peace, Moral Development thru Education Foundation" so I took a look at their website at http://www.bdvision.net/html/eng_version.html .

The site features some questions with answers supposedly from a Buddhist perspective. One of the questions is "What will be the result of giving up drinking but still going to pubs?" and you really have to read the whole answer to believe it.

It points out that with regard to students, "Going to the pubs usually causes them to have sexual relations with prostitutes working there."

Part of the answer is a story related by the Buddha's disciple Ananda about a previous life in which he had "immoral sexual relations with many women." To cut a long story short, Ananda gets reborn mutiple times as a good looking male monkey, and female monkeys get jealous and bite his pecker off (must have been Thai monkeys). Then he gets reborn as a good looking male donkey who doesn't get much work done because of all the attention from female donkeys (it's the females' fault, of course), so his owner castrates him.

Finally, someone - it isn't clear who - says, "According to Lord Buddha's teachings, if persons who did wrong like me but never made merit by giving alms to Phra Pajjeka Buddha, they would have to be born as gays or lesbians or prostitutes about 500 lives later. When the penalty became dilute, they would be born as women who had unfaithful husbands so many lives. And then 500 lives more, they became the women who had happy family as general people we've seen. Finally, they could return to be men. But if male persons still behave unfaithful sexual relation or go to pubs or go wenching, eventually they have to return to such cycle again."

So there you go, guys - if you go to pubs but don't make merit you'll get your dick bitten off by angry monkeys and come back as a gay, a lesbian or a hooker for 500 lives!

[nokia]

People live in a sea of suffering because of ignorance and greed. They are ignorant of the law of karma and are greedy for the wrong kind of pleasures. They do things that are harmful to their bodies and peace of mind, so they can not be satisfied or enjoy life.

For example, once children have had a taste of candy, they want more. When they can't have it, they get upset. Even if children get all the candy they want, they soon get tired of it and want something else. Although, they get a stomach-ache from eating too much candy, they still want more. The things people want most cause them the most suffering.

Can immorality be like the candy? Can Aids/STD be like the stomach-ache?

How much merit/alms is enough for an upgrade rather than a downgrade?

Isnt the Eightfold Path & doing merit BETTER than living immorally & trying to do merit to cover the wrongs?

The Five Precepts include No sexual misconduct- In happy families, the husband and wife both respect each other.

[robitusson]

If the teachings and stories don't appeal to you or you don't find it beneficial to you then forget about it! If you think it doesn't make sense then don't bother with it. Every religion, belief system and moral code has parts that we either don't understand, misinterpret, misunderstand or think we know better of. Secondly taking things literally goes a long way to missing the point of the main ideas. It says in the article "you can indicate what you want to be in the next life by your behavior in this life." You can do that in a day to day way. If you behave a certain way today, it will have consequences for tomorrow. Obvious really but people, including me, do not really understand it judging by how we live our lives. I think that is closer to the main point of the article than being reborn as a prostitute and the other examples you gave.

[sabaijai]

Wat Thammakai/Dhammakaya is perhaps the closest equivalent Thailand has to that huge Baptist church in Dallas, Texas, I forget the name but it's the one with the largest congregation of any church in America, has a few celebs in the crowd now and then, and lots of political connections (mostly in the Republican camp).

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Here's a link to a BBC article about the abbot's being accused of embezzlement. I believe he was never sanctioned or convicted.

Wat Dhammakaya

[sabaijai]

[Abandon]

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Wat Dhammakaya

I am sorry that you have bought into the Press criticisms of Wat Dhammakaya without any genuine examination.

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size. That is utter nonsense. There is a lot of money there, and this, as anywhere attracts criticism, as everyone seems to know better how it should be raised/spent.

Dhammakaya meditation is not Jhana.

Wat Dhammakaya made some of the first advances towards ordination of women (about 4 years ago). They also have gotten massive numbers of people attentding their retreats - at the peak about 200 000 at a time. Few Thai temples genuinely try to get people to meditate rather than just tam boon. Few genuinely try to get 'devotees' to keep precepts. That is Dana, Sila, Bhavana - for 200 000 people at a time. And without charge.

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose. The list goes on, but I shalln't.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Abandon

[sabaijai]

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Wat Dhammakaya

I am sorry that you have bought into the Press criticisms of Wat Dhammakaya without any genuine examination.

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size. That is utter nonsense. There is a lot of money there, and this, as anywhere attracts criticism, as everyone seems to know better how it should be raised/spent.

Dhammakaya meditation is not Jhana.

Wat Dhammakaya made some of the first advances towards ordination of women (about 4 years ago). They also have gotten massive numbers of people attentding their retreats - at the peak about 200 000 at a time. Few Thai temples genuinely try to get people to meditate rather than just tam boon. Few genuinely try to get 'devotees' to keep precepts. That is Dana, Sila, Bhavana - for 200 000 people at a time. And without charge.

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose. The list goes on, but I shalln't.

So what is the press on about then?

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size.

I didn't realise you knew so much about Dhammakaya - so have you read their literature regarding donations, etc? PA Payuttho is one of the people criticising Wat Dhammakaya for the (alleged) practice. Several expose-style features, both in English and in Thai, have also reported this.

Judging from the text camerata quoted, the WD clerics seem to know how many lives one will have according to specific acts (could be based on suttanta, I don't know).

From what I've read about Dhammakaya meditation technique - on the temple's own website as well as branch centres - it appears to be pure samatha with the objective of attaining jhana.

dhammakaya meditation

pathama magga jhana

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose.

There are quite a few monasteries around that are strict about ordination. A few I know because I've enquired myself include Wat U Mong, Wat Pa Nanachat, Wat Nong Pa Phong, Wat Thepsirin and Wat Bowon. I've only asked at about a dozen places so I assume there must be many more, even if it's not the majority. So I don't think Wat Dhammakaya can claim to be very exclusive or unique in that sense. At the risk of sounding cynical, I imagine with the proper donation, anyone can ordain at Wat Dhammakaya for as long as they like.

[Sheryl]

How much merit/alms is enough for an upgrade rather than a downgrade?

Isnt the Eightfold Path & doing merit BETTER than living immorally & trying to do merit to cover the wrongs?

Of course. It's not only better, it is the only way that actually works. This notion of "cleansing "onself of bad khamma through donations to wats etc is a gross commercialization and perversion of what the Buddha actually taught. Interestingly the exact same phenomena seems to occur in all religons. Mafia hit-men lighting candles in a catholic church, going to confession and then going on to kill again...etc etc. No great religious teacher ever taught "do whatever you like, and you can escape the moral consequences throuh this or that (essentially commercial) action."

But it seems to be human nature to want to have it both ways, so the demand for "quick fixes"that allow the wrong-doer to keep doing wrong invaraiably comes, and once religions become institutalized they tend to succomb to popular demands like that.

[sabaijai]

Phra Paisan Vimalo is another vocal critic.

A clean and orderly atmosphere is the first impression most visitors have about Wat Phra Dhammakaya, but it is the sacred that binds the large number of followers to this wat with tenacious faith. Besides its reputedly powerful miracles, its sacred is immanent and touchable. Its sacred is characterized by the Buddha's Dhammakaya and nibbana. Its nibbana and the Buddha's Dhammakaya are not only a permanent self (atta) but also perceivable like matter (having physical qualities like cold and soft). Moreover, ordinary people (that have not advanced in meditation) can have contact with the Buddha's Dhammakaya, through their "rice offering to Dhammakaya in nibbana" ceremony.

Vimalo

More from Phra Dhammapitaka (PA Payuttho):

Post

The link above might not work. I can't tell because for months now I've not been able to access the Post online, and I can't figure out why. The article appears in the 19 Feb 1999 issue, so if you can get into the Post archives you can find the article quoting Phra Dhammapitaka on how Wat Dhammakaya is selling 'indulgences' (to borrow a term from medieval Catholicism). Could all be wrong, and I wouldn't know the motives behind it.

Enough from me on the topic, though, it's all secondhand (albeit from sources I generally trust).

[Ijustwannateach]

Most good spiritual ideas get saddled down with loads of power/control based dross and social chaff over the years and centuries... certainly what Jesus said has nothing to do with the way Paul perverted him, or with the whole Mosaic Law that preceded him.... real Hinduism has nothing to do theoretically with the social caste system of India.... and I doubt very much that the drivel quoted by Camerata in the OP is anything related to Buddha's great original insights- he probably had better things to do than humiliate women and gays by making their lives subsidiary punishments to philandering without paying off the monks.

Usually one can ask: is this piece of doctrine in the spirit of the great person whose name it bears? And easily recognise whether it is or not. In this case, definitely not.

"Steven"

[thai3]

. Few Thai temples genuinely try to get people to meditate rather than just tam boon. Few genuinely try to get 'devotees' to keep precepts. That is Dana, Sila, Bhavana - for 200 000 people at a time. And without charge.

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose. The list goes on, but I shalln't.

Very true, although I love going to wats 90% of it is just ritualistic hocus pocus. I would recommned the book my life as a siamese monk by richard randall (sp) about his time at wat paknam in the early 50's. Dhamakaya was not so well known then or as rich but this should not put people off. Santi asoke's ideas were the opposite when it came to wealth but look what they did to that movement.

[Abandon]

I read that book .. it is a classic. Describing Thailand back in the 50's - he was the first western monk in Thailand. Though he failed somewhat at the end, the foundation he layed down blossomed years later under Ajahn Sumedho. If you google " Honourable Fathers " you can DL a PDF that covers a lot of the same people.

[sabaijai]

I've read Life as a Siamese Monk too, agree it's a must-read for westerners interested in modern Thai Buddhism. His descriptions of the jhana attainments were very lucid, I thought.

I'd almost forgot about it in this discussion, but I worked with this method at Wat Bowon in the 70s, as the Sangharaja was then teaching the Wat Paknam method (I believe Wat Bowon switched to the Mahasi Sayadaw method shortly after Khantipalo moved to Oz, but not sure). At home (in Thonburi then) I didn't have a crystal ball so was told to start with a candle flame instead. Under HH's and Phra Khantipalo's instruction I got far enough along that I could produce (if that's the correct word, instruction was mostly in Thai and HH used the Thai term สร้าง nimitta (meditation image) at will both inside and outside the body. Wherever I go in Thailand now, when meeting monks or laypeople who also practice this method, everyone cross-examines each other to compare how 'far up the ladder' we are.

Thais are often amazed that a foreigner has learned to สร้างอุคคหนิมิต (produce acquired meditation image), so one of the things I liked about Randall's book was that he demystifies it for the most part and shows how, taken step-by-step, it's not all that difficult (though I'm sure it varies from individual to individual). It seemed to me to be a fairly easy practice that anyone could train to do within a month or so, even meditating part time. Of course it is only considered the first stage, there's a lot more afterwards (attainments which Randall, as I recall, did reach).

Other than the side benefits like improved concentration at work, I couldn't see any insight or wisdom about the human condition, about dukkha, anicca or anatta developing with the practice. Contemporaneous with the Wat Bowon classes I started attending abhidhamma discussions with Ajahn Sujin, and later worked with Mahasi Sayadaw-related meditation almost exclusively. Nowadays I seldom practice samatha/jhana meditation, though I haven't given it up entirely Satipatthana/vipassana can be practiced anytime, anywhere, while samatha/jhana meditation generally requires a quiet place, etc, and I fear once you need special atmosphere for your practice, you've effectively drawn a counter-productive line between your spirtual and wordly life. I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas (a phenom I previously thought was limited to western Buddhists ) Just my opinion ... it's all good.

[Abandon]

It really saddens me when I find so-called Buddhists tirading about how their system is so right, and others are for the dumb.

And if 4 posts worth is not enough to convince you, there is the final proof for the village idiot:

I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas

Gosh, consider me a convert.

[Sheryl]

It really saddens me when I find so-called Buddhists tirading about how their system is so right, and others are for the dumb.

And if 4 posts worth is not enough to convince you, there is the final proof for the village idiot:

I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas

Gosh, consider me a convert.

Come on, give Sabaijai a break. His post hardly reads like a tirade to me. As for the part you quoted -- any school or system of Buddhism would agree that neither breaking sila (drinking) nor bragging about attainments is appropriate. The Buddha explicitly forbade bhikkus to do the latter, and of course drinking is against sila and sila is the foundation of all systems of Buddhist practice.

I can't say myself whether or not people practicing the Paknam/dhammakaya method are more prone to these failings than others, but if they are, it is a valid commentary on their system of practice . One of the things that distinguishes Buddhism (and most Asian philosophies/religions) from Western philosophies is that their value is judged by the result as demonstrated in the lives of thiose who practice. Western philosophy will accept ideas as good even if the person who first espoused them was insane or sociopathic, as long as they hold up to logical debate. But Buddhism emphasizes practical result.

[Abandon]

Wat Thammakai/Dhammakaya is perhaps the closest equivalent Thailand has to that huge Baptist church in Dallas, Texas, I forget the name but it's the one with the largest congregation of any church in America, has a few celebs in the crowd now and then, and lots of political connections (mostly in the Republican camp).

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Here's a link to a BBC article about the abbot's being accused of embezzlement. I believe he was never sanctioned or convicted.

Wat Dhammakaya

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Wat Dhammakaya

I am sorry that you have bought into the Press criticisms of Wat Dhammakaya without any genuine examination.

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size. That is utter nonsense. There is a lot of money there, and this, as anywhere attracts criticism, as everyone seems to know better how it should be raised/spent.

Dhammakaya meditation is not Jhana.

Wat Dhammakaya made some of the first advances towards ordination of women (about 4 years ago). They also have gotten massive numbers of people attentding their retreats - at the peak about 200 000 at a time. Few Thai temples genuinely try to get people to meditate rather than just tam boon. Few genuinely try to get 'devotees' to keep precepts. That is Dana, Sila, Bhavana - for 200 000 people at a time. And without charge.

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose. The list goes on, but I shalln't.

So what is the press on about then?

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size.

I didn't realise you knew so much about Dhammakaya - so have you read their literature regarding donations, etc? PA Payuttho is one of the people criticising Wat Dhammakaya for the (alleged) practice. Several expose-style features, both in English and in Thai, have also reported this.

Judging from the text camerata quoted, the WD clerics seem to know how many lives one will have according to specific acts (could be based on suttanta, I don't know).

From what I've read about Dhammakaya meditation technique - on the temple's own website as well as branch centres - it appears to be pure samatha with the objective of attaining jhana.

dhammakaya meditation

pathama magga jhana

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose.

There are quite a few monasteries around that are strict about ordination. A few I know because I've enquired myself include Wat U Mong, Wat Pa Nanachat, Wat Nong Pa Phong, Wat Thepsirin and Wat Bowon. I've only asked at about a dozen places so I assume there must be many more, even if it's not the majority. So I don't think Wat Dhammakaya can claim to be very exclusive or unique in that sense. At the risk of sounding cynical, I imagine with the proper donation, anyone can ordain at Wat Dhammakaya for as long as they like.

Phra Paisan Vimalo is another vocal critic.

A clean and orderly atmosphere is the first impression most visitors have about Wat Phra Dhammakaya, but it is the sacred that binds the large number of followers to this wat with tenacious faith. Besides its reputedly powerful miracles, its sacred is immanent and touchable. Its sacred is characterized by the Buddha's Dhammakaya and nibbana. Its nibbana and the Buddha's Dhammakaya are not only a permanent self (atta) but also perceivable like matter (having physical qualities like cold and soft). Moreover, ordinary people (that have not advanced in meditation) can have contact with the Buddha's Dhammakaya, through their "rice offering to Dhammakaya in nibbana" ceremony.

Vimalo

More from Phra Dhammapitaka (PA Payuttho):

Post

The link above might not work. I can't tell because for months now I've not been able to access the Post online, and I can't figure out why. The article appears in the 19 Feb 1999 issue, so if you can get into the Post archives you can find the article quoting Phra Dhammapitaka on how Wat Dhammakaya is selling 'indulgences' (to borrow a term from medieval Catholicism). Could all be wrong, and I wouldn't know the motives behind it.

Enough from me on the topic, though, it's all secondhand (albeit from sources I generally trust).

I've read Life as a Siamese Monk too, agree it's a must-read for westerners interested in modern Thai Buddhism. His descriptions of the jhana attainments were very lucid, I thought.

I'd almost forgot about it in this discussion, but I worked with this method at Wat Bowon in the 70s, as the Sangharaja was then teaching the Wat Paknam method (I believe Wat Bowon switched to the Mahasi Sayadaw method shortly after Khantipalo moved to Oz, but not sure). At home (in Thonburi then) I didn't have a crystal ball so was told to start with a candle flame instead. Under HH's and Phra Khantipalo's instruction I got far enough along that I could produce (if that's the correct word, instruction was mostly in Thai and HH used the Thai term สร้าง nimitta (meditation image) at will both inside and outside the body. Wherever I go in Thailand now, when meeting monks or laypeople who also practice this method, everyone cross-examines each other to compare how 'far up the ladder' we are.

Thais are often amazed that a foreigner has learned to สร้างอุคคหนิมิต (produce acquired meditation image), so one of the things I liked about Randall's book was that he demystifies it for the most part and shows how, taken step-by-step, it's not all that difficult (though I'm sure it varies from individual to individual). It seemed to me to be a fairly easy practice that anyone could train to do within a month or so, even meditating part time. Of course it is only considered the first stage, there's a lot more afterwards (attainments which Randall, as I recall, did reach).

Other than the side benefits like improved concentration at work, I couldn't see any insight or wisdom about the human condition, about dukkha, anicca or anatta developing with the practice. Contemporaneous with the Wat Bowon classes I started attending abhidhamma discussions with Ajahn Sujin, and later worked with Mahasi Sayadaw-related meditation almost exclusively. Nowadays I seldom practice samatha/jhana meditation, though I haven't given it up entirely Satipatthana/vipassana can be practiced anytime, anywhere, while samatha/jhana meditation generally requires a quiet place, etc, and I fear once you need special atmosphere for your practice, you've effectively drawn a counter-productive line between your spirtual and wordly life. I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas (a phenom I previously thought was limited to western Buddhists ) Just my opinion ... it's all good.

If that is not a tirade then its author needs to take a couple of aspirin and a very early night.

[sabaijai]

I know, quoting Phra Vimalo and Phra Dhammapitaka was over the top, and showing actual images of the temple, terribly polemic.

Here's a fairly balanced look at the Dhammakaya cult:

Santisuda Ekachai

and for a more light-hearted look:

Slate

Can't resist one more photo, of Abbot Dhammachayo with a statue of himself and (fake?) gold bullion. And not all that unorthodox by Thai standards.

[camerata]

I really wish that the mainstream Sangha, or even just one temple, would use modern mass-marketing methods to attract young people to the core teachings and make them relevant, but I suppose the Sangha's "feudal" organization prevents that.

Getting back to my OP, what I was concerned about was the distortion of the Buddha's message to suit someone's conservative cultural agenda. I'm d@mn sure the Buddha didn't say anything about promiscious people coming back as gays or lesbians for 500 lives. Convention dictates that karmic results are closely related to karmic actions, so it's logical that a promiscious/unfaithful person would come back in another life as a prostitute or spouse of an unfaithful person, or even (from a Thai's perspective) have his genitalia severed. But this group is claiming that being gay is an appropriate result for those who are promiscious and immoral.

How quickly the moralists dispense with compassion and pass judgment on those who are different. And how ironic that if they didn't condemn gays, gays wouldn't have to suffer.

[sabaijai]

I really wish that the mainstream Sangha, or even just one temple, would use modern mass-marketing methods to attract young people to the core teachings and make them relevant, but I suppose the Sangha's "feudal" organization prevents that.

Getting back to my OP, what I was concerned about was the distortion of the Buddha's message to suit someone's conservative cultural agenda. I'm d@mn sure the Buddha didn't say anything about promiscious people coming back as gays or lesbians for 500 lives. Convention dictates that karmic results are closely related to karmic actions, so it's logical that a promiscious/unfaithful person would come back in another life as a prostitute or spouse of an unfaithful person, or even (from a Thai's perspective) have his genitalia severed. But this group is claiming that being gay is an appropriate result for those who are promiscious and immoral.

How quickly the moralists dispense with compassion and pass judgment on those who are different. And how ironic that if they didn't condemn gays, gays wouldn't have to suffer.

It seems Wat Thammakai and the Dhammakaya Foundation have been very successful at mass marketing, both in methodology and content, eg, teaching that there is a permanent atta (soul) that lives in nibbana for eternity (or put another way, nibbana contains atta, and Dhammakaya is also atta), a notion that has always worked well for the propagation of Mahayana Buddhism, relative to Theravada.

As Khun Sanitsuda's article mentions, you hear it said that among Dhammakaya followers Abbot Dhammachayo is regarded (or regards himself, the point isn't clear and it may be spurious) either as a reincarnation of Buddha or as a bodhisattva sent by Buddha to combat Black Dhammakaya, a sort of anti-Buddha atta locked in a long-lasting cosmic battle with White Dhammakaya, the 'good' atta.

I would agree, the apparent social agenda is more worrying than apparent/alleged deviations in Buddhist metaphysics and philosopy. Perhaps catering to latent homophobia is part of the marketing strategy?

Hope this is not seen as a tirade. I remember a year or two back when someone here posted questions about SGI/Nichiren scandals, to which I responded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again.

I must admit I fear the Dhammakaya Foundation could become Thailand's Soka Gakkai. In fact it'll probably never reach that point and the sect may fade into relative obscurity just as Santi Asoke did, after an initial decade or two of mass popularity. Then again Santi Asoke was never this big.

[Abandon]

Wat Thammakai/Dhammakaya is perhaps the closest equivalent Thailand has to that huge Baptist church in Dallas, Texas, I forget the name but it's the one with the largest congregation of any church in America, has a few celebs in the crowd now and then, and lots of political connections (mostly in the Republican camp).

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Here's a link to a BBC article about the abbot's being accused of embezzlement. I believe he was never sanctioned or convicted.

Wat Dhammakaya

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Wat Dhammakaya

I am sorry that you have bought into the Press criticisms of Wat Dhammakaya without any genuine examination.

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size. That is utter nonsense. There is a lot of money there, and this, as anywhere attracts criticism, as everyone seems to know better how it should be raised/spent.

Dhammakaya meditation is not Jhana.

Wat Dhammakaya made some of the first advances towards ordination of women (about 4 years ago). They also have gotten massive numbers of people attentding their retreats - at the peak about 200 000 at a time. Few Thai temples genuinely try to get people to meditate rather than just tam boon. Few genuinely try to get 'devotees' to keep precepts. That is Dana, Sila, Bhavana - for 200 000 people at a time. And without charge.

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose. The list goes on, but I shalln't.

So what is the press on about then?

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size.

I didn't realise you knew so much about Dhammakaya - so have you read their literature regarding donations, etc? PA Payuttho is one of the people criticising Wat Dhammakaya for the (alleged) practice. Several expose-style features, both in English and in Thai, have also reported this.

Judging from the text camerata quoted, the WD clerics seem to know how many lives one will have according to specific acts (could be based on suttanta, I don't know).

From what I've read about Dhammakaya meditation technique - on the temple's own website as well as branch centres - it appears to be pure samatha with the objective of attaining jhana.

dhammakaya meditation

pathama magga jhana

They also have a tight vetting process for monks who want to remain monks .. it is not easy to get ordination there other than for a short period after which they must disrobe. All other Thai temples allow pretty much anyone to ordain and stay in robes if they choose.

There are quite a few monasteries around that are strict about ordination. A few I know because I've enquired myself include Wat U Mong, Wat Pa Nanachat, Wat Nong Pa Phong, Wat Thepsirin and Wat Bowon. I've only asked at about a dozen places so I assume there must be many more, even if it's not the majority. So I don't think Wat Dhammakaya can claim to be very exclusive or unique in that sense. At the risk of sounding cynical, I imagine with the proper donation, anyone can ordain at Wat Dhammakaya for as long as they like.

Phra Paisan Vimalo is another vocal critic.

A clean and orderly atmosphere is the first impression most visitors have about Wat Phra Dhammakaya, but it is the sacred that binds the large number of followers to this wat with tenacious faith. Besides its reputedly powerful miracles, its sacred is immanent and touchable. Its sacred is characterized by the Buddha's Dhammakaya and nibbana. Its nibbana and the Buddha's Dhammakaya are not only a permanent self (atta) but also perceivable like matter (having physical qualities like cold and soft). Moreover, ordinary people (that have not advanced in meditation) can have contact with the Buddha's Dhammakaya, through their "rice offering to Dhammakaya in nibbana" ceremony.

Vimalo

More from Phra Dhammapitaka (PA Payuttho):

Post

The link above might not work. I can't tell because for months now I've not been able to access the Post online, and I can't figure out why. The article appears in the 19 Feb 1999 issue, so if you can get into the Post archives you can find the article quoting Phra Dhammapitaka on how Wat Dhammakaya is selling 'indulgences' (to borrow a term from medieval Catholicism). Could all be wrong, and I wouldn't know the motives behind it.

Enough from me on the topic, though, it's all secondhand (albeit from sources I generally trust).

I've read Life as a Siamese Monk too, agree it's a must-read for westerners interested in modern Thai Buddhism. His descriptions of the jhana attainments were very lucid, I thought.

I'd almost forgot about it in this discussion, but I worked with this method at Wat Bowon in the 70s, as the Sangharaja was then teaching the Wat Paknam method (I believe Wat Bowon switched to the Mahasi Sayadaw method shortly after Khantipalo moved to Oz, but not sure). At home (in Thonburi then) I didn't have a crystal ball so was told to start with a candle flame instead. Under HH's and Phra Khantipalo's instruction I got far enough along that I could produce (if that's the correct word, instruction was mostly in Thai and HH used the Thai term สร้าง nimitta (meditation image) at will both inside and outside the body. Wherever I go in Thailand now, when meeting monks or laypeople who also practice this method, everyone cross-examines each other to compare how 'far up the ladder' we are.

Thais are often amazed that a foreigner has learned to สร้างอุคคหนิมิต (produce acquired meditation image), so one of the things I liked about Randall's book was that he demystifies it for the most part and shows how, taken step-by-step, it's not all that difficult (though I'm sure it varies from individual to individual). It seemed to me to be a fairly easy practice that anyone could train to do within a month or so, even meditating part time. Of course it is only considered the first stage, there's a lot more afterwards (attainments which Randall, as I recall, did reach).

Other than the side benefits like improved concentration at work, I couldn't see any insight or wisdom about the human condition, about dukkha, anicca or anatta developing with the practice. Contemporaneous with the Wat Bowon classes I started attending abhidhamma discussions with Ajahn Sujin, and later worked with Mahasi Sayadaw-related meditation almost exclusively. Nowadays I seldom practice samatha/jhana meditation, though I haven't given it up entirely Satipatthana/vipassana can be practiced anytime, anywhere, while samatha/jhana meditation generally requires a quiet place, etc, and I fear once you need special atmosphere for your practice, you've effectively drawn a counter-productive line between your spirtual and wordly life. I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas (a phenom I previously thought was limited to western Buddhists ) Just my opinion ... it's all good.

I know, quoting Phra Vimalo and Phra Dhammapitaka was over the top, and showing actual images of the temple, terribly polemic.

Here's a fairly balanced look at the Dhammakaya cult:

Santisuda Ekachai

and for a more light-hearted look:

Slate

Can't resist one more photo, of Abbot Dhammachayo with a statue of himself and (fake?) gold bullion. And not all that unorthodox by Thai standards.

I really wish that the mainstream Sangha, or even just one temple, would use modern mass-marketing methods to attract young people to the core teachings and make them relevant, but I suppose the Sangha's "feudal" organization prevents that.

Getting back to my OP, what I was concerned about was the distortion of the Buddha's message to suit someone's conservative cultural agenda. I'm d@mn sure the Buddha didn't say anything about promiscious people coming back as gays or lesbians for 500 lives. Convention dictates that karmic results are closely related to karmic actions, so it's logical that a promiscious/unfaithful person would come back in another life as a prostitute or spouse of an unfaithful person, or even (from a Thai's perspective) have his genitalia severed. But this group is claiming that being gay is an appropriate result for those who are promiscious and immoral.

How quickly the moralists dispense with compassion and pass judgment on those who are different. And how ironic that if they didn't condemn gays, gays wouldn't have to suffer.

It seems Wat Thammakai and the Dhammakaya Foundation have been very successful at mass marketing, both in methodology and content, eg, teaching that there is a permanent atta (soul) that lives in nibbana for eternity (or put another way, nibbana contains atta, and Dhammakaya is also atta), a notion that has always worked well for the propagation of Mahayana Buddhism, relative to Theravada.

As Khun Sanitsuda's article mentions, you hear it said that among Dhammakaya followers Abbot Dhammachayo is regarded (or regards himself, the point isn't clear and it may be spurious) either as a reincarnation of Buddha or as a bodhisattva sent by Buddha to combat Black Dhammakaya, a sort of anti-Buddha atta locked in a long-lasting cosmic battle with White Dhammakaya, the 'good' atta.

I would agree, the apparent social agenda is more worrying than apparent/alleged deviations in Buddhist metaphysics and philosopy. Perhaps catering to latent homophobia is part of the marketing strategy?

Hope this is not seen as a tirade. I remember a year or two back when someone here posted questions about SGI/Nichiren scandals, to which I responsded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again.

I must admit I fear the Dhammakaya Foundation could become Thailand's Soka Gakkai. In fact it'll probably never reach that point and the sect may fade into relative obscurity just as Santi Asoke did, after an initial decade or two of mass popularity. Then again Santi Asoke was never this big.

Stretched to 7 posts in which your arrogance is surpassed only by your ignorance. And all off topic too. You should grow up a bit mate. Try some Chivas.

...to which I responsded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again

You sure do think an awful lot of yourself. That guy had the right idea.

Cya.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Abandon

[camerata]

Hope this is not seen as a tirade. I remember a year or two back when someone here posted questions about SGI/Nichiren scandals, to which I responsded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again.

Yes, I remember the guy. Without a doubt a serious Buddhist but he seemed to take everything so personally. Regarding SGI, all he could come up with was the standard cult-member rhetoric about everyone being against his sect. Even though Buddhism is primarily about giving up the ego, it seems the ego is infinitely cunning. It's so easy to forget that "nothing is worth clinging to." As I recall, this was Buddhadhasa's one-line summary of Dhamma.

I must admit I fear the Dhammakaya Foundation could become Thailand's Soka Gakkai. In fact it'll probably never reach that point and the sect may fade into relative obscurity just as Santi Asoke did, after an initial decade or two of mass popularity. Then again Santi Asoke was never this big.

I read that Santi Asoke was crushed by the establishment primarily because of Chamlong being a politician. According to my Thai friends, no one can touch Dhammakaya because of its extensive connections and celebrity members. Anyway, I never heard of them having political ambitions, which is one reason SGI's leader got bad press.

[sabaijai]

Stretched to 7 posts in which your arrogance is surpassed only by your ignorance. And all off topic too. You should grow up a bit mate. Try some Chivas.

...to which I responsded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again

You sure do think an awful lot of yourself. That guy had the right idea.

Cya.

Instead of contributing something positive to this thread,whether on or off topic, by responding to critiques of Dhammakaya in the press and from respected members of the Thai Sangha, or responding to camerata's or my concerns about the temple's social agenda, or correcting any ignorant remarks I may have made, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Do you by chance work for the Dhammakaya Foundation?

Hope this is not seen as a tirade. I remember a year or two back when someone here posted questions about SGI/Nichiren scandals, to which I responsded with added info, an SGI devotee accused me of being a Satanic agent. And then buggered off, never to be seen in this branch again.

Yes, I remember the guy. Without a doubt a serious Buddhist but he seemed to take everything so personally. Regarding SGI, all he could come up with was the standard cult-member rhetoric about everyone being against his sect. Even though Buddhism is primarily about giving up the ego, it seems the ego is infinitely cunning. It's so easy to forget that "nothing is worth clinging to." As I recall, this was Buddhadhasa's one-line summary of Dhamma.

I must admit I fear the Dhammakaya Foundation could become Thailand's Soka Gakkai. In fact it'll probably never reach that point and the sect may fade into relative obscurity just as Santi Asoke did, after an initial decade or two of mass popularity. Then again Santi Asoke was never this big.

I read that Santi Asoke was crushed by the establishment primarily because of Chamlong being a politician. According to my Thai friends, no one can touch Dhammakaya because of its extensive connections and celebrity members. Anyway, I never heard of them having political ambitions, which is one reason SGI's leader got bad press.

I remember Chamlong's association with Santi Asoke, but didn't realise the sect may have been persecuted for political reasons.

As for Dhammakaya not having political ambitions, where there's great wealth, politics usually follows.

[SeerObserver]

Wat Thammakai/Dhammakaya is perhaps the closest equivalent Thailand has to that huge Baptist church in Dallas, Texas, I forget the name but it's the one with the largest congregation of any church in America, has a few celebs in the crowd now and then, and lots of political connections (mostly in the Republican camp).

A little late on this, but FYI this reference is to the Potter's House. TD Jakes is the minister there. He has also written novels that inspired movie production, as well as inspirational or self-help books.

In Texas, I know of them as well as Lakewood Church (Joel Osteen). Large congregations and their praises/criticisms are a topic I'm interested in.

Maybe this thread will be revived by this bump. Karma and retribution makes for pretty interesting discussion.

Wat Thammakai has the largest regular attendance of any temple in Thailand I believe, is hugely wealthy with endowments exceeding 50 billion baht, has political connections and favours interpretations of Theravada Buddhism that some would call aberrant. Temple literature allegedly (I haven't read any myself) keys advancement towards nibbana to donation size. The type of meditation they teach appears to be entirely limited to attaning jhanas (absorption states).

Wat Dhammakaya

I am sorry that you have bought into the Press criticisms of Wat Dhammakaya without any genuine examination.

Nowhere does Wat Dhammakaya propose that progress to nibbana is keyed to donation size. That is utter nonsense. There is a lot of money there, and this, as anywhere attracts criticism, as everyone seems to know better how it should be raised/spent.

This is true. Dhammakaya has received a lot of press criticism. Many people feel it is undue and that it is a political ramification which could be due to numerous factors (a thread in and of itself). It seems to be universal across faiths that large congregations are on the receiving end of much criticism, the easiest of which is vast finances. Naturally, that's the easiest thing to point out in that many people feel that a religious institutions should not have much assets, etc.

I find that many of the lay Thais that practice the Paknam/dhammakya method nowadays don't practice all that much sila, they sit around discussing their meditation attainments while getting smashed on Chivas (a phenom I previously thought was limited to western Buddhists wink.gif ) Just my opinion ... it's all good. tongue.gif

Could this actually be true? I would think that practitioners of these schools would be strictly following precepts.

Edited January 31, 2009 by SeerObserver

[fabianfred]

Abandon seems to be a fully paid up card carrying member of the dhammakaya.... so will allow no criticism

I posted this elsewhere but here goes.....

The Dhammkaya is really a different form of meditation from the traditional vipassana and samatha styles. Although the dhammakaya is still really samatha (concentration) meditation. The founder was Luang por Sod at Wat Pak nam. He found and started to practise the style by himself. After his death it was continued by his disciples. It is not very well known, that Luang Por Sod studied and practised Vipassana at Wat Mahathat in Bangkok, but he knew that his time left was too short to change over and start to teach Vipassana. Although his personal practise took him to the Arahant stage, he didn't have enough time left to gain the experience in order to teach it to others. After his death his followers destroyed evidence that he had studied vipassana, because they wanted to each only dhammakaya.

(about the claim that Luang por Sod is arahant)

He never said it himself...... that would be a Parachicca offense......uwat uttari manussadham thi mai mii nay ton

It was spoken of by his teacher and preceptor (at Wat Mahathat) to another student who is now knowen as luang Por jaran the abbot of wat Amphawan Singhburi.... who was both a student of Luang Por Sod and wat mahathat...and is now also considered to be an Arahant ( again not admitted by himself)

I very much disagree with their claim that theirs is the only way to practise meditation to achieve Nirvana.....

Samatha meditation was practised long before the Buddha was born in his final birth.... but it is Vipassana or Insight meditation which is the way to Nirvana. This was unknown before the Buddha taught it in his Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

Luang por Jaran who is the abbot of Wat Amphawan Singhburi is considered by many, myself included, to be arahant. He has devoted himself to the teaching of Vipassana....the Mahasi Sayadaw method. His student has written a full biography about his life, in a novelised form, in thai, but since he kept detailed diaries about any event worthy of jotting down, the facts of the stories are there, just dressed with inventive dialogue, so the books are very readable and instructive too. He was a student of Luangpor Wat pak Nam and learned the Dhammakay method before learning Vipassana at Wat Mahathat. Whilst there he attained to the 16th insight (Sotapanna) as did the King's mother, and Luang Por Wat Pak nam also attended at that time.

[Brucenkhamen]

Getting back to my OP, what I was concerned about was the distortion of the Buddha's message to suit someone's conservative cultural agenda. I'm d@mn sure the Buddha didn't say anything about promiscious people coming back as gays or lesbians for 500 lives. Convention dictates that karmic results are closely related to karmic actions, so it's logical that a promiscious/unfaithful person would come back in another life as a prostitute or spouse of an unfaithful person, or even (from a Thai's perspective) have his genitalia severed. But this group is claiming that being gay is an appropriate result for those who are promiscious and immoral.

How quickly the moralists dispense with compassion and pass judgment on those who are different. And how ironic that if they didn't condemn gays, gays wouldn't have to suffer.

Yes, I figured this was the topic you introduced with this thread. Reading through I as surprised how quickly and how far the thread digressed.

What you describe sounds like scary stories usedto scare naughty children to behave themselves, like "If you don't go to sleep the boogey man will get you".

From a Buddhist perspective speculating on what someones rebirth will be is sheer nonsense, and an example of wrong view in my opinion, but it happens all the time and your example is not unique. However to do it to this degree in printed media is just another example of how an organisation like this seeks to control it's followers, which it presumably sees as naughty children.

[camerata]

I have a bottle of wine left over from Xmas that I'm not going to drink and was wondering aloud if I should give it to someone. One of my Dhammakaya-loving colleagues said giving alcohol to someone was a sin and I would reap some indirect karmic fruit such as my children would have Down's Syndrome or my grandchildren would have Down's Syndrome.

Actually, I take her point about giving away alcohol to someone, but the karmic result seemed pretty arbitrary and nonsensical. I'm told there has recently been a TV campaign along these lines which I assume only Dhammakaya would have the resources to fund.

[samuibeachcomber]

simply put "what goes round comes round" in this life.if you do good things,the good things you do will come back to you.if you do bad things but repent(in my beliefs)and not do the bad things again you will be forgiven(in other words your sins of the past will be wiped away.

[rockyysdt]

I have a bottle of wine left over from Xmas that I'm not going to drink and was wondering aloud if I should give it to someone. One of my Dhammakaya-loving colleagues said giving alcohol to someone was a sin and I would reap some indirect karmic fruit such as my children would have Down's Syndrome or my grandchildren would have Down's Syndrome.

Actually, I take her point about giving away alcohol to someone, but the karmic result seemed pretty arbitrary and nonsensical. I'm told there has recently been a TV campaign along these lines which I assume only Dhammakaya would have the resources to fund.

Digressing a little, the practice of constant "mindfulness", & "self awareness" should eventually lead to the recognition of the impermanence of our conditioning and how we react to it, and, eventually grow to react skillfully in thought, speech and deed.

It seems our problem is, how do we eventually know what is skillful and what isn't?

The karmic consequences of giving away alcohol is one example.

Edited February 1, 2009 by rockyysdt

[samuibeachcomber]

I have a bottle of wine left over from Xmas that I'm not going to drink and was wondering aloud if I should give it to someone. One of my Dhammakaya-loving colleagues said giving alcohol to someone was a sin and I would reap some indirect karmic fruit such as my children would have Down's Syndrome or my grandchildren would have Down's Syndrome.

Actually, I take her point about giving away alcohol to someone, but the karmic result seemed pretty arbitrary and nonsensical. I'm told there has recently been a TV campaign along these lines which I assume only Dhammakaya would have the resources to fund.

if you gave away a bottle of wine to a person who you knew was an alcoholic,other than that what would be wrong in giving a gift to someone.

[SeerObserver]

Abandon seems to be a fully paid up card carrying member of the dhammakaya.... so will allow no criticism

[Omission]

I very much disagree with their claim that theirs is the only way to practise meditation to achieve Nirvana.....

Samatha meditation was practised long before the Buddha was born in his final birth.... but it is Vipassana or Insight meditation which is the way to Nirvana. This was unknown before the Buddha taught it in his Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

It seems to be commonly accepted that Dhammakaya says their way of meditation is the only path to Nirvana. I would be interested to see this documented in their material somewhere. Abandon

And now here we are with another similar statement. I do not think many people would be comfortable to accept that there is only one way that is "THE" way to Nirvana. I personally believe that there are more than that. Different mediations are arguably suited for different temperaments, but I believe with the right practice there are a few different methods that could be used to attain this end with success by people of all temperaments.

Any thoughts?