Foreigner Shot Dead In Saraburi

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

1.2 murders per 100,000 people per year in the UK

20 million visitors to Thailand each year

By UK rates, you could expect over 200 visitors to Thailand to be murdered each year.

Not even "off the charts" by the stats of a "civilized" country like the UK.

Assuming your numbers are remotely correct, one must take into account that an average visitor may spend only one week in Thailand, or less if on business, so not accurate to compare murder rate of country and it's resident to another country based on all it's short term vacationers.

I would imagine that the percentage of foreigners spending a year or more in Thailand who die of suspicious causes, suicide, and murder would be a but disturbing.

You don't have to assume they're correct. Just google "murder rates by country".

I don't know of any statistics that separate short-time and long-time residents as crime victims. Still, with over 20 million visitors a year I don't find the numbers of them that fall victim to violent crime shocking at all. It only seems like a large number because it every single one of them is reported here and subject to hundreds of posts. We're talking about over 20 million visitors every year.

Personally, I find the numbers of visitors who meet an untimely end here surprisingly low considering how many locals meet the same fate every year. I don't see any statistical evidence whatsoever to indicate that crime against visitors is any higher than crimes against locals, or that Thais are somehow "out for whitey" as some posters have implied.

Your 20 million number includes all border crossings, which means visa runs and people getting off planes at the airport. If I leave the country 20 times this year I will be counted as twenty visitors.

True. But it also doesn't include the millions who enter illegally, don't leave the country in the course of the year, or come and just never leave. Anyway, it's the best figure we have. So maybe it's 15 million distinct visitors. Big deal?

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

If someone wants you dead, you'll be dead even if they can't get a gun. There will be a bomb in your car, a knife in your throat, or poison in your coffee. You're dead either way.

Wow. Very inspiring post.

Really????

Yes, really. Your point?

No point....no point at all...

carry on....

So...which would you rather live in?

A country that has 5 gun deaths per 100,000 citizens on an annual basis? Or a country that has 50 murders of all types per 100,000 citizens on an annual basis?

You seem to be criticizing me for lack of sense, so I'd like to hear your answer.

Chads · October 2, 2012

I try to be fair with my criticism as much as possible, and I'm willing to accept if it seems like I'm proven wrong.

But in the case of Thailand, I still do think it's quite a violent and violence-prone society, when I compare it with all the other Southeast Asian countries I've stayed in.

That's the feel I get, reading news and through interactions with Thai and observations of them interacting with others (Thais and foreigners alike).

In Southeast Asia, the following countries all have higher homicide rates than Thailand's:

Indonesia

Laos

Myanmar

Philippines

Timor-Leste

Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore, and Cambodia have lower rates.

I'll agree with the statistics, though I'd have to say those places "felt" safer and/or less violence-prone. That's the same impression many foreigners I've spoken to have. Maybe our perceptions have been influenced by the media, to lesser and greater extents.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Chads

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

I'll agree with the statistics, though I'd have to say those places "felt" safer and/or less violence-prone. That's the same impression many foreigners I've spoken to have. Maybe our perceptions have been influenced by the media, to lesser and greater extents.

That's exactly it.

Chads · October 2, 2012

I'll agree with the statistics, though I'd have to say those places "felt" safer and/or less violence-prone. That's the same impression many foreigners I've spoken to have. Maybe our perceptions have been influenced by the media, to lesser and greater extents.

That's exactly it.

Out of curiousity, how long have you lived in Thailand?

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

I'll agree with the statistics, though I'd have to say those places "felt" safer and/or less violence-prone. That's the same impression many foreigners I've spoken to have. Maybe our perceptions have been influenced by the media, to lesser and greater extents.

That's exactly it.

Out of curiousity, how long have you lived in Thailand?

Over 25 years. You?

Seems much more dangerous now, in the internet age, when we get to hear about every little thing.

In the past, if it wasn't reported in the papers or didn't happen to someone you know, you never heard about it.

Edited October 2, 2012 by NewlyMintedThai

exona · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

Chads · October 2, 2012

I'll agree with the statistics, though I'd have to say those places "felt" safer and/or less violence-prone. That's the same impression many foreigners I've spoken to have. Maybe our perceptions have been influenced by the media, to lesser and greater extents.

That's exactly it.

Out of curiousity, how long have you lived in Thailand?

Over 25 years. You?

Seems much more dangerous now, in the internet age, when we get to hear about every little thing.

In the past, if it wasn't reported in the papers or didn't happen to someone you know, you never heard about it.

I've been moving in and out for a couple of years.

Chads · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

I'm sorry we're discussing other matters here. I do think it is a very sad thing that this man had to pass.

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

Hey, all of us are sorry about Oswald. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke.

Don't be offended, though, if the discussion moves beyond memorializing and into an examination of violence in Thailand in general. This is, after all, a discussion board.

transam · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

Hey, all of us are sorry about Oswald. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke.

Don't be offended, though, if the discussion moves beyond memorializing and into an examination of violence in Thailand in general. This is, after all, a discussion board.

I am still pissed off at the photo.

Mosha · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

Hey, all of us are sorry about Oswald. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke.

Don't be offended, though, if the discussion moves beyond memorializing and into an examination of violence in Thailand in general. This is, after all, a discussion board.

I am still pissed off at the photo.

Standard newspaper ops here sad to say.

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

seriously a lot of you blokes that are posting here really need to have a long hard look at yourselves, The complete insensitivity and lack of empathy displayed by many symbolises a complete disconnect with the real world. I doubt many of you have any tangible real world relationships with family or friends. Oswald was a much loved man and you are tarnishing his reputation. I suggest you set up your own thread somewhere and compare how empty your lives are.

Hey, all of us are sorry about Oswald. I'm sure he was a lovely bloke.

Don't be offended, though, if the discussion moves beyond memorializing and into an examination of violence in Thailand in general. This is, after all, a discussion board.

I am still pissed off at the photo.

Standard newspaper ops here sad to say.

Yes, the notion that a dead body has any kind of "dignity" to be preserved after its soul has left it is mostly a Western concept.

Mosha · October 2, 2012

Soul has bugger all to do with it. It's a matter of showing discretion, and respect the feelings of the deceased kith and kin.

NewlyMintedThai · October 2, 2012

Soul has bugger all to do with it. It's a matter of showing discretion, and respect the feelings of the deceased kith and kin.

Yes, well Thai culture has a different view. No surprise, surely?

transam · October 2, 2012

Soul has bugger all to do with it. It's a matter of showing discretion, and respect the feelings of the deceased kith and kin.

Absolutely correct.

Farangs are not Thai and never will be, so farangs with bits blown off should not be shown on this mainly farang forum. Anybody here want his butchered body shown on the Net ???.

Cos some of ''US'' will be, for our families to see. Sadly.

geriatrickid · October 2, 2012

In the past, shooting someone point blank in the mouth was intended to send a message: Big mouth, talk too much, might have threatened someone, i.e. mouthed off to the wrong person, or may have said he would take the matter to the authorities.

.

Where? In Thailand?

Well, it appears, that my statement is now supported by the circumstances of the case, in that the man was involved in litigation over custody of his child. If we accept what has been posted here, that the deceased was a decent fellow, but was caught up in the perils of a dispute with an ex, then it isn't very far off to see someone wanted him to "shut his mouth" and wanted to ".teach him a lesson". As I wrote, shooting someone in the mouth is a very personal act and demonstrates premeditation.

Domestic violence is never pretty, and it is rampant in Thailand. However, this type of crime, is just so repugnant and vile as to call into question the basic humanity of those implicated. It wasn'ta spur of the moment act, but something that took planning. Think about it. There were people that conspired to murder the man, and for what? An ex was intent on revenge, or because he apparently just wanted to be a good father and make sure his child was taken care of? I don't know about the rest of you, but the aspect of someone trying to be a good father and suffering for it, is one aspect of the case that is infuriating.

canuckamuck · October 2, 2012

This is an expat forum in Thailand We talk about things that are relevant to expats living here. Expats murders are obviously going to get more attention here. If this was Vietnamese forum in America, they would pay more attention to murders of Vietnamese people than they would to deaths of local people unless there was some tangible connection. Is that racist or is that normal behavior, or both?

Can we get back to the topic?

Chalard · October 2, 2012

Im all for freedom of speech and all, but some of the comments here are a disgrace. Why make a derogitory comment on someones death you know nothing about? Is it to try and portray yourself as being 'smart'? Like someone else said, think if it were your brother or best mate.. How would you feel? What value are you adding to this thread?

Spot on mate.

Insight · October 2, 2012

I guess it's threads like these in which ThaiVisa lives up to its unfavourable reputation in some expat circles.

wallcracks · October 2, 2012

If anyone knows this guy, than it is your duty to report to the police, even anonymously.

A truly terrible state of affairs.

And become a suspect so can shift blame from Thai to farang.

Go into an Internet cafe.

Sign up with a new Hotmail address.

Send the message to the police or to the newspaper that has published the story.

Sign out of Hotmail, walk out of Internet cafe and never use that Hotmail address again.

OR

Print out a letter, post from a post box to the police or to the newspaper that has published the story.

Only need to give the man`s name, nationality and address if known.

There are ways and means.

This guy probably has family somewhere, perhaps children, and if anyone knows this man please don`t make the family suffer, plus the police have limited resources, help them, please and bring the murderers to book.

It should be no Problem for the Police or Immigration to find out who this Man is

Except he was illegal in the Country without a Visa

there are multiple ways to find out wo he is, one would be facial recognition

since years everybody who come into Thailand has to make a Picture at Immigration.

If he has a Long Stay Visa they should have his Finger Prints on file too.....

dighambara · October 2, 2012

Farang who got in the way of a Thai.

When did foreigner mean "falang"

600 years ago give or take. Various interpretations say 'Farang' = 'Foreign', while others say 'Farangset' (French). However, Thais generally use the term for light skinned folks, except the stars of Thai TV. Puzzling really, because some black folks (American definition) are called Farang...

coma · October 2, 2012

Soul has bugger all to do with it. It's a matter of showing discretion, and respect the feelings of the deceased kith and kin.

Absolutely correct.
Farangs are not Thai and never will be, so farangs with bits blown off should not be shown on this mainly farang forum. Anybody here want his butchered body shown on the Net ???.

Cos some of ''US'' will be, for our families to see. Sadly.

At the time of the OP and for 24 hours after it the deceased was a John Doe. I therefore used TV as a tool to get information out to the expat community ASAP with the intent on maybe alerting some people who may have known the deceased to come forward and assist authorities with identification. And indeed numerous people have posted on this tread stating they did know the deceased. There was nothing but GOOD intentions. There was no disrepect in it at all. Grab a local paper where I sourced all the content for the thread and that is the picture you see. Welcome to Thailand and the way Thais deal with such cases.

Edited October 2, 2012 by coma

weka · October 3, 2012

Coma -

By providing those links at the start of the thread you sped up the process of "finding" my friend and notifying the next of kin by hours or even days. Thank you

These are difficult times for us which have nothing to do with cultures or crime rate.

Some hideous PEOPLE have brought this about through their choice to execute a wonderful person. It matters not what country, or culture these people are from. They are despicable people and the only reflection of this whole episode is on THEM.

It's not right or fair to drag all of Thailand into disrepute for the actions of about 6 totally dysfunctional people - may they get what they deserve and rot in hell

Buchholz · October 3, 2012

Thai police hunt killers of South African man

Thailand's police are searching for the killers of a South African man whose body was dumped next to a grave they believe was intended for him, Thai media reported on Tuesday. According to the Thai-language Daily News, police had seized a vehicle, which they believed was connected to the murder of Oswald Heinrich Duvel.

Thai media reported that Duvel's body was discovered in the foothills of Saraburi province. The Thai Rath newspaper reported that Duvel, who was shot three times, was found wearing only his watch and a pair of blue underpants. Both newspapers reported that a partially dug grave was found near the body.

The Pattya Daily News reported that police believed those who dug the grave fled because they might have been spooked by a passerby. Several reports indicated that Duvel went missing after leaving his home in Bangkok to visit his three-year-old son at the home of his ex-wife.

Continued:

http://www.thenewage.co.za/64294-1007-53-Thai_police_hunt_killers_of_SA_man_Reports

New Age (South Africa) - Oct. 2, 2012

.

Buchholz · October 3, 2012

the victim's Facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/oswald.duvel

.

Buchholz · October 3, 2012

LinkedIn page of the victim:

Oswald Duvel

CEO at CCI (Singapore) Pte Ltd

Singapore

Professional Training & Coaching

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/oswald-duvel/6/16a/103

.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Buchholz

farang000999 · October 3, 2012

Just got the daily email from ThaiVisa news and like clockwork http://www.thaivisa....on-koh-phangan/ seems like a daily occurrence.

Edited October 3, 2012 by farang000999

exona · October 3, 2012

It's very refreshing for me waking this morning and seeing the tone of this thread about our much loved friend change for the better. Thank you! Coma you have helped immensely in this process by your op. I personally saw my friend's photo Monday morning on this thread and did not recognise him at all, I also was not aware that he was missing at that point. I can tell you all for fact that this original thread helped in Oswalds quick identification!

I'm glad you guys here at TV have tracked down the wire story about this horrendous crime coming out of South Africa. The story is not going to go away and it's profile is only going to rise both here and there. As many of you would be aware often a high profile results in quick and just results. I'd hope that all you good people out there get behind Oswalds case and do your part in helping to bring his killers to justice. Remember for every one of his friends who have commented here there are hundreds who have not! He was a man who made an immense impact on all who knew him.

The last thing Oswald would have wanted was for he to be responsible for a base argument about Thai/Farang/ thai justice, blah blah blah thing!

That was not the man!

Can I ask that from now on we try to use this forum constructively as a means of bringing these murderers to justice.

Any advice,past experience or worthwhile contacts would be welcome. Please feel free to message me direct if you'd prefer.

Thanks.

NewlyMintedThai · October 3, 2012

Just wondering about his former wife. Maybe those who knew him can shed some light on her background, personality, etc.

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