Poll: Expat Retirees -- Do You Worry About Running Out Of Money Before You Run Out Of Time?

[TwoDogz]

Just ask your financial planner/advisor how much money/assets he/she has and to prove it to you before you will pay them any money or fees to take and/or even listen to their advice.

[jamescollister]

Run out of money here or anywhere and you are poor. No difference, just cheaper here. Jim

But run out of money in the UK and you'll get a rent-free place to live and some spending money. You'd still be poor, but not as poor as here. where you'd have nothing at all.

An option for some would be to start earning something part-time and saving for later years. Internet based stuff always brings in at least some money.

So all those sleeping on the streets are in fact the new breed of urban outdoors men, not homeless. Jim

[55Jay]

Mai bpen rai. Falang tink too mut.

They have confidence in the Thai Social Security System, so they don't have to worry about such trivial things.

Edited October 3, 2012 by 55Jay

[yoshiwara]

Surely you'd never leave your own country for good unless you were 100% sure you'll never need to return.............

I can only imagine having perhaps to return home from Sunny Pleasant Thailand to a cold winter in an Old Peoples home in the uk ??

If you are concerned why not have the best of both worlds and spend 6 months in each country. I'd never burn my bridges in the first place to be honest though.

You would think so, but it isn't always immediately obvious to someone whether a position is tenuous or not and they are not exactly listening to or have available appropriate advice.

The magic word is income and the risky word is capital. An underestimation of how burning through capital is easy.

Those with regular income (renting out home side property, pension) always in a sounder position.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

I'm not worried about running out of money before I run out of time.

I am very worried about English beer supplies to Thailand being interrupted by an international incident!

[Jingthing]

Actually, many, many people leave their country to at least attempt retirement in less than ideal financial circumstances. It's called real life and real circumstances as opposed to idealistic pipe dreams. Many people over 50 are actually pushed out of gainful employment much earlier than they would normally choose. Then what? For some, retirement abroad because it MAY be more economically viable than staying in a higher cost home country. Life involves risks. Retiring abroad without great wealth is high risk but many rational people choose that risk with a clear head over their alternatives, which may be very limited and indeed worse.

University of Virginia demographics reasearcher Kevin Martin, who has been studying migrations based on economic factors, said he believes the decline in income and net worth will continue with retirement-aged Americans and this will lead to more overseas retirement relocations. “We have seen exponential growth in the number of people retiring is such contries as Mexico, Panama and Ecuador. This is a trend that has gone under the radar of many economic studies. It is just now beginning to be noticed.”

http://www.cuencahig...elocations.aspx

Carlos Alvarez, a Cuenca developer who worked for 15 years in Miami, says one of the reasons for the falling sales to gringos is that more of them are renting. “This makes sense, of course, to get to know the community before you buy. Another reason, however, is that many of the newer gringos cannot afford to buy even if they want to. Many of them, unfortunately, are part of the group referred to as economic refugees.”

Elizabeth Cowans, a British demographer who has been a visiting profesor at two of Cuenca’s universities, agrees with Alvarez. “As a sideline to my teaching, I have been following the expat community here for seven years and I can safely report that it has changed remarkably in the past two or three years,” she says. “To be blunt, as a group, the more recent exapts are older and poorer, and this obviously affects real sales.”

http://www.cuencahig...s-declines.aspx Edited October 3, 2012 by Jingthing

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

A paranoid and personal view!

People who offer to manage your money are only out to make money. They are very adept at persuading you that the process of caring for your money is very complex and reliant on concepts and principals you wouldn't understand. They offer reassurance in the form of expensive suits and Mercs and they sometimes have names like Justin St Paul. They are usually very good at explaining the factors that caused your investments to fail.

Most private sector pension schemes are a rip off and nothing more than a gravy train for an army of lawyers,auditors,investments managers and accountants.

If you want to be sure that your money is safe and won't run out, you have to learn to manage it yourself !

After the most recent financial recent financial crash, how many experts crawled out of the woodwork to offer their expert and learned opinion on why it occurred !

If there was all that wisdom around why did it happen ? Because the only thing most of them know about is looking good in a suit and cheating people out of their money !

My little rave is over!

[IMA_FARANG]

Well, I'll put it this way.

I'm 66 years old and retired now.

I'm moderately certain I won't make it until I reach 100 years.

One the other side I'm also reasonably certain that unless there are major changes in the next 34 years...when I'm going to be reaching 100 if I do survive until then....much of the world's economic system will be in very bad shape by that time.

Putting the two things together....I expect to be gone before the entire world economy is staring to go to h-ll in 40 years or so.

So I have a reasonable expectation of running out of time before it starts to get really nasty in 40 to 50 years.

I personally believe that in 50 years things will be getting so bad in the world that does who are still living will be sorry they are.

I'm glad I very likely won't be around then.

Capitalisim is like a mad dog devouring it's own children....but I won't be around when it really gets ugly.

[doggie888888]

Whether the money runs out before time is sometimes beyond our control (eg bank failure, prolonged depression, bad investment choices, personal misfortune etc etc).

But we can sometimes choose our own end.

My plan has always been to ensure that I have my stash of pentobarbital, well before I lose my quality of life as a result of illness or intolerable (and irreversible) poverty. Why get messy jumping off a balcony, meddle with knots or other painful (bloody!) methods when a suitable dose of happy drugs can put you to sweet endless sleep?

[Naam]

Actually, many, many people leave their country to at least attempt retirement in less than ideal financial circumstances. It's called real life and real circumstances as opposed to idealistic pipe dreams. Many people over 50 are actually pushed out of gainful employment much earlier than they would normally choose. Then what? For some, retirement abroad because it MAY be more economically viable than staying in a higher cost home country. Life involves risks. Retiring abroad without great wealth is high risk but many rational people choose that risk with a clear head over their alternatives, which may be very limited and indeed worse.

that retiring abroad is a risk has been stated over and over again in this forum, accompanied by advice such as "don't burn your bridges!" and the like. no matter how hard i try, i fail to see the rationale in these warnings because specific reasons are never mentioned.

therefore my questions:

-who or what is stopping an expat who retired abroad to take the next available flight to his home country (assuming he has not spent his last penny curing buffaloes, paying sin sod or purchasing property for other people)?

-what does "burning bridges" mean? selling a home? if he hasn't wasted the money on bar fines and beer but invested it he can always buy "back home" a home again. in a number of countries cheaper than what he sold his home for earlier.

-why does one need "great wealth" when retiring in a country where general living costs are much lower than "at home" and where in many cases (tough luck for you Americans) the taxman does not put his claws on any income before it arrives in one's own pocket?

note! answers like "in Boise, Idaho a bag of potatoes is much cheaper than in Villa Market" will not be accepted!"

[HidyHo]

But we can sometimes choose our own end.

As morbid as it sounds, I like to think it's also a controllable variable (for me). I just never want to be in a situation where it's no longer a controllable variable - that's the real fear.

[transam]

Is this a continuation of ''Would you cross a busy road to save 50 bht'' thread by the OP ?

[JSixpack]

Yeah, I can relate. I fear severe poverty more than death. I wouldn't last a day on the streets.

In my case, I haven't worked for pushing ten years now, and I thought I'd be richer at this point than I actually am. What hit me wasn't so much inflation or personal events, but the BAD luck of the TIMING of when I stopped working. (Market meltdowns.)

What about the expense of eating out so often?

[JSixpack]

The two events, running out of money and time, can easily be simultaneous as so many Pattaya residents have demonstrated.

[transam]

Yeah, I can relate. I fear severe poverty more than death. I wouldn't last a day on the streets.

In my case, I haven't worked for pushing ten years now, and I thought I'd be richer at this point than I actually am. What hit me wasn't so much inflation or personal events, but the BAD luck of the TIMING of when I stopped working. (Market meltdowns.)

What about the expense of eating out so often?

Or his new fridge. (Why do l remember that stuff, l was hopeless at history)

[yoshiwara]

Actually, many, many people leave their country to at least attempt retirement in less than ideal financial circumstances. It's called real life and real circumstances as opposed to idealistic pipe dreams. Many people over 50 are actually pushed out of gainful employment much earlier than they would normally choose. Then what? For some, retirement abroad because it MAY be more economically viable than staying in a higher cost home country. Life involves risks. Retiring abroad without great wealth is high risk but many rational people choose that risk with a clear head over their alternatives, which may be very limited and indeed worse.

Some confuse wealth with income. Those with regular income can manage except for one item. Those with liquid wealth but without regular income are more vulnerable.

The elephant in the room is potential health costs. I don't think I know anybody with a 100% clear head on that one who has burned their boats.

[David006]

5555..Lots of things to worry about ...run out of beer , run out of cigs, run out of steam.

Don't understand your poll...to what end..is it raining and you are bored?

Here it has just started raining again..and I am bored and very worried about running out of scotch.

Count me GOM...... I am an old silver spoon-er, lazy, apathetic, procrastinator with beautiful half Chinese/half my age Hi So independently wealthy ....yadda yadda yadda and she washes my ....

Have a good one mate...

Think I will go back to the "Do you live in Thailand" pissing contest now.....naaa bugger it.... read me book instead

What a strange person!

Strange? Of course I am strange, it is a prerequisite to be on a social network rambling on about stuff ..drop over to FB if ya wanna see strange. ...

.....beats some of the other epithets i guess

[balo]

Im happy to be in my 40s so its a long way to go until I will be retired.

But if I should end up broke in Thailand when Im old, I can always go back to native Norway.

The best social welfare system in the world is waiting for me, and its free for Norwegian passport holders.

[californiabeachboy]

Years ago I listened to an interesting radio program in which they interviewed a woman who had been diagnosed with a terminal disease (AIDS, back in the day when that was a death sentence). After a couple of years she discovered that she didn't have the disease. She was obviously relieved, but she said that when she thought she only had a few years to live, her life was so simple - live in the moment. Then when she found out she wasn't dying, her life became much more compicated - should I buy a house?, what kind of mortgage should I get?, should I go back to school, buy a new car, etc.

The big problem with worrying about running out of money is that it will make your life much more complicated.

[Naam]

at age 48 i was diagnosed with liver cancer and i thought "what a shit to go at that age. but hey, nobody can take away those 2 years of retirement i really enjoyed!"

[Morakot]

[davejones]

A paranoid and personal view!

People who offer to manage your money are only out to make money. They are very adept at persuading you that the process of caring for your money is very complex and reliant on concepts and principals you wouldn't understand. They offer reassurance in the form of expensive suits and Mercs and they sometimes have names like Justin St Paul. They are usually very good at explaining the factors that caused your investments to fail.

Most private sector pension schemes are a rip off and nothing more than a gravy train for an army of lawyers,auditors,investments managers and accountants.

If you want to be sure that your money is safe and won't run out, you have to learn to manage it yourself !

After the most recent financial recent financial crash, how many experts crawled out of the woodwork to offer their expert and learned opinion on why it occurred !

If there was all that wisdom around why did it happen ? Because the only thing most of them know about is looking good in a suit and cheating people out of their money !

My little rave is over!

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

Edited October 4, 2012 by davejones

[yoshiwara]

A paranoid and personal view!

People who offer to manage your money are only out to make money. They are very adept at persuading you that the process of caring for your money is very complex and reliant on concepts and principals you wouldn't understand. They offer reassurance in the form of expensive suits and Mercs and they sometimes have names like Justin St Paul. They are usually very good at explaining the factors that caused your investments to fail.

Most private sector pension schemes are a rip off and nothing more than a gravy train for an army of lawyers,auditors,investments managers and accountants.

If you want to be sure that your money is safe and won't run out, you have to learn to manage it yourself !

After the most recent financial recent financial crash, how many experts crawled out of the woodwork to offer their expert and learned opinion on why it occurred !

If there was all that wisdom around why did it happen ? Because the only thing most of them know about is looking good in a suit and cheating people out of their money !

My little rave is over!

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

They do on the buy-sell spread. Also the cumulative tax relief can be quite substantial.

[Naam]

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

They do on the buy-sell spread. Also the cumulative tax relief can be quite substantial.

they don't take their fees/commission on the spread but from the full amount of buyer and seller. either "public" or hidden in the bid/ask spread. nobody buys or sells without paying!

[transam]

A paranoid and personal view!

People who offer to manage your money are only out to make money. They are very adept at persuading you that the process of caring for your money is very complex and reliant on concepts and principals you wouldn't understand. They offer reassurance in the form of expensive suits and Mercs and they sometimes have names like Justin St Paul. They are usually very good at explaining the factors that caused your investments to fail.

Most private sector pension schemes are a rip off and nothing more than a gravy train for an army of lawyers,auditors,investments managers and accountants.

If you want to be sure that your money is safe and won't run out, you have to learn to manage it yourself !

After the most recent financial recent financial crash, how many experts crawled out of the woodwork to offer their expert and learned opinion on why it occurred !

If there was all that wisdom around why did it happen ? Because the only thing most of them know about is looking good in a suit and cheating people out of their money !

My little rave is over!

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

Hope your ''organs'' are in tune with your cash. .........................

[yoshiwara]

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

They do on the buy-sell spread. Also the cumulative tax relief can be quite substantial.

they don't take their fees/commission on the spread but from the full amount of buyer and seller. either "public" or hidden in the bid/ask spread. nobody buys or sells without paying!

So, there are a number of costs independent of any other (potential) management fees: the buy-sell spread, the payment to the broker for executing the trade and the stamp tax.

[Naam]

So true. Luckily, I came to that conclusion many years ago. Don't have a personal pension, but have plenty of investments doing much better that other people's pension funds. Plus I have access to the cash if I want it. What the point of a large retirement pot if you can't access most of the money. Another plus - no-one is taking commission from my investments. On the downside, I didn't get tax relief. But I still prefer it my way.

They do on the buy-sell spread. Also the cumulative tax relief can be quite substantial.

they don't take their fees/commission on the spread but from the full amount of buyer and seller. either "public" or hidden in the bid/ask spread. nobody buys or sells without paying!

So, there are a number of costs independent of any other (potential) management fees: the buy-sell spread, the payment to the broker for executing the trade and the stamp tax.

except Switzerland i don't know of any stamp tax and the buy/sell fees a bank charges as well as the "safe custody" fees vary a lot even though both are negotiable based on turnover.

multinational banks in Asia, enabling the client to buy globally any asset without restrictions, charge buy/sell fees between 0.15 and 0.50% and safe custody fees vary from 0% to 5‰.

[CaptHaddock]

The risk of an expat's outliving his assets or income in Thailand increases the more the following are true:

1. younger age at retirement

2. suffer large market losses early in retirement

3. his home currency declines in value (assuming his assets remain in his home currency)

4. inflation in Thailand

(Jingthing, I hesitate to say it, but I think this sounds like you.)

In my opinion, it is crucial to have a long-range financial plan for retirement, to review it often, and to make changes (life style, relocation, etc.) as soon as possible when conditions change. Most retirees are not capable to preparing such a plan, nor are most financial advisors.

For my own situation, I consider moving to Thailand has reduced my risk of going broke, because of the lower cost of living and especially of health care. In the US, health care economists estimate that an average couple will spend $250k in out-of-pocket health care costs during retirement, beyond what Medicare covers. I don't find similar estimates for Thailand, but I am guessing they would be a lot less, particularly at government hospitals, which are the silver-lining to Thailand.

But life in Thailand might not always be so cheap particularly if the USD declines in the long-term as some economists expect. So, I will be prepared to change as necessary.

If you are thinking about the risks to portfolio longevity for the first time, you would be well-advised to read "Unveiling the Retirement Myth" by James Otar, available from his website as a cheap pdf.

http://www.retiremen...ptimizer.com/

Read especially his chapter on the risk in Sequence of Returns. It could keep you from sleeping. The rest of his book is very valuable also.

[Suradit69]

If inflation ramps up to double figures in the expat's home country a lot of people here relying on savings invested in Euros, Dollars, Aussie Wollars, etc. will be getting a lot less bang for their Baht.

Inflation is the big potential danger.

Depending on what sort of assets you have, their nominal value will increase with inflation. That's why many people want to hold gold, silver or even shares in commodity based businesses. It's hoped that their nominal value, in terms of fiat currencies, will keep pace with inflation. Even Social Security and some pensions have some inflation adjustments built into them.

Of course that was once the safety assumed to exist when buying real estate. That turned out to be a bubble in many countries. My condo in Thailand has, theoretically, increased in value. It's certainly saved me a lot compared to paying rent the past 15 years... and maybe the next 15.

Everything in life depends to some extent on dumb luck.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Suradit69

[Lancelot]

at age 48 i was diagnosed with liver cancer and i thought "what a shit to go at that age. but hey, nobody can take away those 2 years of retirement i really enjoyed!"

Hope you are OK now Naam.

dam_n right, about retiring early, IMO. Some folks really love their jobs and good for them but I don't miss w*rk one bit