Hurting Another's Feelings With (Perhaps Your Idea Of) Truth. Is This The Buddhist Way?

[rockyysdt]

I'm told that I can be blunt and forward, often unintentionally hurting another's feelings.

A trait I picked up from my mother.

She can be unintentionally hurtful when sometimes unnecessarily pointing out another's flaw proclaiming:

"But it is the truth".

I'm mindful of feeling uncomfortable from a recent post in which l pointed out possible aversion and delusion of another.

My intentions were to help, but is it my place?

Without appropriate practice would it make any difference anyway?

No one likes others to turn against them, or attack their ego, especially in a public forum.

The variables are many and can include an inability to fully convey ones stance.

This prompted me to write.

Is an unrequested bruising of another's ego un Buddhist like or (if valid) an opportunity to evaluate?

or

Am I being pompous to believe that what l offer is right, or of help in some way?

Is it against Buddhist teachings to point out another's aversion, or greed, (which wasn't requested) especially if this may illicit hurt?

Edited October 4, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Buddha said.... 'When talking about others, do not mention their faults, only their good points; but when talking about ourselves mention only our faults, and avoid talking about our good points..'

Not easy in this time when everyone brags how great they are and likes to find fault with others.

Stopping and thinking, 'will what i am going to say lead to harmony or disharmony?'

Ideals...but hard to live up to.....by all of us I suspect.

[rockyysdt]

Buddha said.... 'When talking about others, do not mention their faults, only their good points; but when talking about ourselves mention only our faults, and avoid talking about our good points..'

Not easy in this time when everyone brags how great they are and likes to find fault with others.

Stopping and thinking, 'will what i am going to say lead to harmony or disharmony?'

Ideals...but hard to live up to.....by all of us I suspect.

I like your quote.

I view this forum as a mini Sangha.

We are here for each others benefit, and encouragement.

Would it apply when interacting with members of a Sangha?

Especially if put in a positive way.

[Several]

Compared to some other forums we seem to be pretty good here. I get the same response as you sometimes, Rocky. I've been told my way of putting a point across can be very strong, even if I did not intend to bulldoze anothers argument. But we both feel bad about hurting anothers feelings which is a good sign. Seems to me you're not trying to score points, just trying to make one.

[IMA_FARANG]

I think we've all made that mistake....usually unintentionally....but it's still a mistake. I know I've made that mistake before, myself.

We all need to sit back and think about what we say before we speak, even when that speech has no intent to give offense to the other person.

We need to be "mindful" of our speech....we need to consider not only what we say, but also what the unintended perception of our words my cause in the listener.

That is exactly why we should all practice, at least as much as we can, what is called "Right speech".

That's not always easy to do, especially when we feel deeply about what we want to say.

What are the three points we must consider as Buddhists?

Isn't it that our speech should be first of all:

1. Trurhful as we understand it?

2. Not intended to give offense to the listener(s), even if offense is not intended we need to be mindful of it's possible offense to the listeners?

3. And compassionate....that our speech is not without compassion for those who listen to it?

If we can't mindfully feel our speech doesn't meet at least those three conditions.....then it is usually best to keep quiet, and wait for another time.

Waiting for another time is also wise when our own best judgement is clouded by our own passion.... even our pssion for the "truth" as we see it.

Passion for the truth is a form of desire.....and a "poison" we should avoid that "poison". Practicinfg "Right Speech" requires being mindful of avoiding that "poison" of desire....even when we intended no harm.

And as I know myself....being mindful of "Right Speech" like that is very difficult to do.

Edited October 5, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[Several]

But compassion is also a sword. A true friend will tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Also some people take offence at any little thing, even the most objective statements are perceived as hiding some insult or derisive message. I usually tell them that when a thief loses something he assumes he's been robbed.

I met one Monk who would, upon hearing some tale of woe, tell that person it was due to their Kamma. Every time. He was a bit bewildered by the negative responses he got. I told him people don't want to hear that their suffering is due to their actions. Sometimes they just want to let it out. I advised him to not offer opinions on causes unless asked for one. You may be right, your intentions may be good, but you can lead a horse to water and sometimes the bugger drowns itself.

A smart man knows the answer, the wise man knows the right time to offer it.

[Sateev]

See Asperger Syndrome.

[huli]

Hi Rocky,

A lot of people will say in conversation "the truth is..." as a prelude to something or other. I don't think it is necessarily offensive, usually it is just framing an idea, but it kind of bugs me.

I don't expect that what I write here will help someone, or have a goal to convincing others. I wouldn't likely be calling someone aversive or greedy or anything. I just share what I consider to be interesting thoughts or viewpoints, for the pleasure of dialogue. Which is why I read it also.

However,at times, after certain replies, I feel frustrated in my eagerness to have a dialogue, and more than once I have posted an irritated reply of my own, which cause me to feel guilty, and then I stay away from this forum for a while. Honestly.

I believe Buddha said that right speech is supposed to be helpful, not just true and pleasant. Right speech is always for the observed need and benefit of the listener. This is not the same as compassion which does not itself require speech, unless it is further concluded that speech would be helpful.

Thanks for starting this topic.

Huli

[BusyB]

A nurse on whose ward I once spent some time insisted that each single criticism of a person should always be accompanied by 6 items of praise.

I also hold myself that truly ego-less and therefore loving truth telling hurts no one other than those who want to hide from it, something for which they are responsible. I'm speaking from personal experience here. But truly loving truth telling is also an art form very few master ... at least on a regular basis.

[ChrisB87]

I think it is fine.

Read this story about how the Buddha dealt with someone needing help.

http://www.vridhamma.org/en2008-04

An Abbott, whom i much respect, once told a monk, "it's better to be a stream-enterer than a dog" (after the young monk had exclaimed that he had entered the stream)

The monk became upset at being called a dog and Ajahn Chah walked away saying, "the stream-enterer is angry"

I think it fair enough.

Feelings are just sensations.

[Sheryl]

Need to consider if what you say is likely to be helpful, and that in turn calls for some assessment of the receptivity of the listener. If it is not likely to be helpful (i.e. if the intended recipient does not seem likely to be receptive to it), it is often wiser to hold one's tongue.

And, as another pointed out, need to be sure that in addition to being truthful, speech is compassionate in intention and tone.

[AYJAYDEE]

Compared to some other forums we seem to be pretty good here. I get the same response as you sometimes, Rocky. I've been told my way of putting a point across can be very strong, even if I did not intend to bulldoze anothers argument. But we both feel bad about hurting anothers feelings which is a good sign. Seems to me you're not trying to score points, just trying to make one.

but the fact that we are here should mean we are open to the thoughts of the others here. we have , in effect, REQUESTED your opinion.

[fabianfred]

Nice story about the pots

The Buddha said that before speaking we should decide if what we are to say leads harmony or disharmony...if the latter then do not speak.

I must admit that right now I am getting a bit annoyed. We as Buddhists should not go around preaching or trying to get others to become Buddhist. If asked we can explain things, but not threaten others with some kind of punishment because they do not wish to believe.

But this is exactly what Christian missionaries do....anyone not Christian is told they are evil and will suffer for eternity.

The lack of tolerance and arrogant attitude of these people is very annoying, especially when you see it ruins other people's lives.

this is what I found annoyed me..

[Eleodel]

My teacher once said 'There are people who still believe that truth exists!!!' before cracking up.

While I wouldn't go that far, the 'truth' you perceive is still subjective.

Also, it is only one of 3 doors that our words are supposed to cross before exiting our lips

Is it true?

Is it useful?

Is it kind?

You've got the first one going, now what about the following 2?

Another thing my teacher said: 'Expressing yourself is not communicating'. Sometimes, we need to vent, to get those righteous frustrations off our chest. Of course we do. But. It is almost a guarantee - in any culture - that if you're venting TO the person who annoyed you, they will clam up and get all defensive, or even aggressive, for the simple reason NO ONE likes to feel wrong, even if it is true.

Now if you want to COMMUNICATE with the person who annoyed you, it is better to 'get rid' of your feelings first, take a walk and breathe and vent with someone else, so the aim of non-confrontational getting things to work again isn't impaired.

Just sayin'. All of this has been useful to me;0)

[Eleodel]

Buddha said.... 'When talking about others, do not mention their faults, only their good points; but when talking about ourselves mention only our faults, and avoid talking about our good points..'

Not easy in this time when everyone brags how great they are and likes to find fault with others.

Stopping and thinking, 'will what i am going to say lead to harmony or disharmony?'

Ideals...but hard to live up to.....by all of us I suspect.

I like your quote.

I view this forum as a mini Sangha.

We are here for each others benefit, and encouragement.

Would it apply when interacting with members of a Sangha?

Especially if put in a positive way.

I think the rule of thumb is to not offer UNrequited advice, but as long as we are kindly, it is right to answer questions that were asked... Humbly. (After all, what is true for us may not be true/right for someone else...)

[MrRealDeal]

Pointing out other peoples flaws unrequested that may cause hurt is just plain rude ...... it really wouldn't matter if you could find some book or another giving you an excuse to do it ..... it would still be rude and poor behavior.

If you want to find an excuse to be rude based on one religion or another you will be looking a long time.

Is an unrequested bruising of another's ego un Buddhist like or (if valid) an opportunity to evaluate? ....... An opportunity ? ... I guess if your idea of a grand opportunity in the world is hurting peoples feelings.

You're basically trying to find some excuse to do to others what you didn't like being done to you by your mother as I see it .... Try googleing the "golden rule"

[rockyysdt]

Pointing out other peoples flaws unrequested that may cause hurt is just plain rude ...... it really wouldn't matter if you could find some book or another giving you an excuse to do it ..... it would still be rude and poor behavior.

If you want to find an excuse to be rude based on one religion or another you will be looking a long time.

Is an unrequested bruising of another's ego un Buddhist like or (if valid) an opportunity to evaluate? ....... An opportunity ? ... I guess if your idea of a grand opportunity in the world is hurting peoples feelings.

You're basically trying to find some excuse to do to others what you didn't like being done to you by your mother as I see it .... Try googleing the "golden rule"

Humbly speaking, are you pointing out my flaws & in the process bruising my ego?

[Tchooptip]

Nice story about the pots

The Buddha said that before speaking we should decide if what we are to say leads harmony or disharmony...if the latter then do not speak.

I must admit that right now I am getting a bit annoyed. We as Buddhists should not go around preaching or trying to get others to become Buddhist. If asked we can explain things, but not threaten others with some kind of punishment because they do not wish to believe.

But this is exactly what Christian missionaries do....anyone not Christian is told they are evil and will suffer for eternity.

The lack of tolerance and arrogant attitude of these people is very annoying, especially when you see it ruins other people's lives.

this is what I found annoyed me..

Abosolutely incredible video on the other hand it did not surprised me at all