Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[StreetCowboy]

Scotlands independence is a highly emotive issue for many - including a lot of people who are not personally involved, but who feel that nationalism or "empire-ism" is a "good thing". Inevitably there are more commentaries than truths, so making a judgement is, to say the least, difficult. Perhaps people need to look at their own motives for believing Scotland should or should not be independent.

Statistics can be used to prove anything. Discovering what makes people want YES or NO is much more interesting.

I'll start the ball rolling by saying that the united kingdom is a politically manufactured anachronism which ignores cultural values and differences. So I will vote YES

It's not politically manufactured, it came about because the King of Sdcotland became the King of England, and the subsequent inheritors wanted to cement that union. The Union came about because two neighbouring and similar countries, having once unified, wanted to cement that union.

SC

Whoa cowboy The union was a convenience to England and certain anglophiles in Scotland after the English had defeated the Scots. There was no wish amongst the Scots at the time to join England, as even a cursory read of history will show you.

We all seem to have our own histories. I'm quite happy with mine, and it comes up as far as where I am now. With the exception of Chiangmai Kelly, most of us are too young to remember, and he was in Pattaya with the Portuguese at the time, I believe.

SC

[transam]

I am English and don't like being called British. Noooooooo disrespect to the Welsh, Scots or Irish.

Why, cos l rather folk know l am English at not perhaps ''really'' from a far off country who don't ''really'' like England. .

Our anglophobia wold be so much more convincing if we had fewer English friends. The exceptions prove to be the rule.

SC

Followed my family history back to 1200 and something, seems we were Normans.

BUT, my eyes have two colours so a bit of native English l think .

There's no such thing as "native English" - you're clutching at straws. When you consider the number of times the islands were raided and conquered you will realise that "English" is a myth. Celts, Romans, Vikings, Dutch, Germans, Normans, etc have all been there.

As an aside - did you realise that the Normans are actually Vikings?

Well l do know some English history. As for straws, hmmmmmmmmm, never invaded by Asians, Africans or Chinese. Ooooop's, wait a minute, l forgot about modern history.

[jpinx]

......

Well l do know some English history. As for straws, hmmmmmmmmm, never invaded by Asians, Africans or Chinese. Ooooop's, wait a minute, l forgot about modern history.

ha ha -- you blinked

[folium]

..........

P.S the origins of the Haggis,some experts say that it originated in Lancashire others believe China.

Bagpipes are arguably Pakistani and kilts Greek. Gaelic is a celtic language coming from the same roots as modern sanskrit. Whiskey was first distilled in Ireland. The list is endless, but Queen Victoria's era seemed to put all that right

The UK TV show QI had a bit of a go about Scottish heritage myths, see below:

" What’s interesting about Scotland, kilts, bagpipes, haggis, porridge, whisky and tartan?

None of them are Scottish.

Scotland is named after the Scoti, a Celtic tribe from Ireland, who arrived in what the Romans called Caledonia in the fifth or sixth century AD. By the 11th century they dominated the whole of mainland Scotland. ‘Scots Gaelic’ is actually a dialect of Irish.

Kilts were invented by the Irish but word ‘kilt’ is Danish (kilte op, ‘tuck up’ )

The bagpipes are ancient and were probably invented in Central Asia. They are mentioned in the Old Testament (Daniel 3: 5, 10,15) and in Greek poetry of the 4th century BC. The Romans probably brought them to Britain but the earliest Pictish carvings date from the 8th century AD.

Haggis was an Ancient Greek sausage (Aristophanes mentions one exploding in The Clouds in 423BC).

Oat porridge has been found in the stomachs of 5,000 year old Neolithic bog bodies in central Europe and Scandinavia.

Whisky was invented in ancient China. It arrived in Ireland before Scotland, first distilled by monks. The word derives from the Irish uisge beatha, from the Latin aqua vitae or ‘water of life’.

The elaborate system of clan tartans is a complete myth stemming from the early nineteenth century. All Highland dress, including what tartan or plaid there was, was banned after the 1745 rebellion. The English garrison regiments started designing their own tartans as an affectation, and to mark the state visit of King George IV to Edinburgh in 1822. Queen Victoria encouraged the trend, and it soon became a Victorian craze. "

All a little unfair as almost all nations have their heritage tales that are largely based on myth, half-truths and blatant lies.

Excellent book about history as taught in US schools entitled "Lies my Teacher told me", and the follow up "Lies Across America" about the misleading signs, plaques and memorials telling a somewhat erroneous version of their respective stories. See below:

http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0684818868

http://www.amazon.co... across america

So when will Caledonia seek its independence from the Irish Scots??

Edited November 27, 2012 by folium

[awayego]

At least we're getting the chance to decide either YES or NO to independence.

Voters registered in Scotland can vote, but Scottish voters in England and around the world are dis-enfranchised, probably by personal choice. If it comes to a tight vote there will be a lot of acrimony both ways - much like US presidential pantomimes .-- I mean elections

I must say I am more than a little frustrated by the fact that I will not be eligible to vote on the future of my country. I was born and brought up in Scotland and spent all my working life in the service of a British company, working in many locations all over the world, including England and Scotland. The irony is I decided to retire to Thailand for various reasons, one of the main ones being that my pension, not large by any means, gives me a reasonably, not quite comfortable, decent standard of living here in Thailand. I would not be able to maintain anything like that level on the same pension in Scotland or indeed UK. But as said it is my choice, but why should I, or in fact any Scot in similar circumstances, be denied the right to vote on the future of our country simply because we are trying to do the best we can to spend our twylight years at the highest standard of living that we can afford.

The salt in the wound is that any Tom, Dick, or Harry from anywhere in the world who happens to have registered in Scotland in 2014 will be eligible to vote. I personally find this way beyond bizarre!!! Acrimony is way too mild a wprd.

By the way I am paying UK tax on my pension and I served in the armed forces should anyone wish to know.

Couldn't agree more - on every point. And here was me wondering if I was the only one!

[trompelemonde]

Scotlands independence is a highly emotive issue for many - including a lot of people who are not personally involved, but who feel that nationalism or "empire-ism" is a "good thing". Inevitably there are more commentaries than truths, so making a judgement is, to say the least, difficult. Perhaps people need to look at their own motives for believing Scotland should or should not be independent.

Statistics can be used to prove anything. Discovering what makes people want YES or NO is much more interesting.

I'll start the ball rolling by saying that the united kingdom is a politically manufactured anachronism which ignores cultural values and differences. So I will vote YES

It's not politically manufactured, it came about because the King of Sdcotland became the King of England, and the subsequent inheritors wanted to cement that union. The Union came about because two neighbouring and similar countries, having once unified, wanted to cement that union.

SC

Whoa cowboy The union was a convenience to England and certain anglophiles in Scotland after the English had defeated the Scots. There was no wish amongst the Scots at the time to join England, as even a cursory read of history will show you.

And as I've already posted,the English people also did not vote on this union,only the so called elite people in Scotland and England. The exact same can be said when the clans of Scotland came together,only the chieftains decided.

If you look to earlier posts by Gentleman Jim ( post 120 & 122)he explained the evolution of Scotland and in fact most countries in the world far better than I can.

But why did the English want a Union with Scotland in 1707?

(Nobody has explained this)

[StreetCowboy]

...

But why did the English want a Union with Scotland in 1707?

(Nobody has explained this)

To prevent the union being broken up when the Scots supported a different claimant to the throne. To make the Jacobites secessionists and rebels, rather than potentially unfriendly neighbours.

SC

[phuketjock]

At least we're getting the chance to decide either YES or NO to independence.

Voters registered in Scotland can vote, but Scottish voters in England and around the world are dis-enfranchised, probably by personal choice. If it comes to a tight vote there will be a lot of acrimony both ways - much like US presidential pantomimes .-- I mean elections

I must say I am more than a little frustrated by the fact that I will not be eligible to vote on the future of my country. I was born and brought up in Scotland and spent all my working life in the service of a British company, working in many locations all over the world, including England and Scotland. The irony is I decided to retire to Thailand for various reasons, one of the main ones being that my pension, not large by any means, gives me a reasonably, not quite comfortable, decent standard of living here in Thailand. I would not be able to maintain anything like that level on the same pension in Scotland or indeed UK. But as said it is my choice, but why should I, or in fact any Scot in similar circumstances, be denied the right to vote on the future of our country simply because we are trying to do the best we can to spend our twylight years at the highest standard of living that we can afford.

The salt in the wound is that any Tom, Dick, or Harry from anywhere in the world who happens to have registered in Scotland in 2014 will be eligible to vote. I personally find this way beyond bizarre!!! Acrimony is way too mild a wprd.

By the way I am paying UK tax on my pension and I served in the armed forces should anyone wish to know.

Couldn't agree more - on every point. And here was me wondering if I was the only one!

I suspect there may be many more, than you and me, in the same or very similar circumstances??

Doesn't seem right or fair does it?

Edited November 28, 2012 by phuketjock

[StreetCowboy]

...

...

I must say I am more than a little frustrated by the fact that I will not be eligible to vote on the future of my country. I was born and brought up in Scotland and spent all my working life in the service of a British company, working in many locations all over the world, including England and Scotland. The irony is I decided to retire to Thailand for various reasons, one of the main ones being that my pension, not large by any means, gives me a reasonably, not quite comfortable, decent standard of living here in Thailand. I would not be able to maintain anything like that level on the same pension in Scotland or indeed UK. But as said it is my choice, but why should I, or in fact any Scot in similar circumstances, be denied the right to vote on the future of our country simply because we are trying to do the best we can to spend our twylight years at the highest standard of living that we can afford.

The salt in the wound is that any Tom, Dick, or Harry from anywhere in the world who happens to have registered in Scotland in 2014 will be eligible to vote. I personally find this way beyond bizarre!!! Acrimony is way too mild a wprd.

By the way I am paying UK tax on my pension and I served in the armed forces should anyone wish to know.

Couldn't agree more - on every point. And here was me wondering if I was the only one!

I suspect there may be many more, than you and me, in the same or very similar circumstances??

Doesn't seem right or fair does it?

Surely it would be a wicked injustice to condemn our compatriots to the lonely misery of secession when we are not willing to share their bleak hardship. Given the freedom of movement legislation and therefore the liberties enjoyed by Poles and Brits in any future independent Scotland, How many of us will be swapping our passports for a new tartan one? How will eligibility be determined?

SC

Will Johnny Foreigners living in Scotland be eligible to vote? Or only Brits? EU nationals? BNOs?

[phuketjock]

...

...

I must say I am more than a little frustrated by the fact that I will not be eligible to vote on the future of my country. I was born and brought up in Scotland and spent all my working life in the service of a British company, working in many locations all over the world, including England and Scotland. The irony is I decided to retire to Thailand for various reasons, one of the main ones being that my pension, not large by any means, gives me a reasonably, not quite comfortable, decent standard of living here in Thailand. I would not be able to maintain anything like that level on the same pension in Scotland or indeed UK. But as said it is my choice, but why should I, or in fact any Scot in similar circumstances, be denied the right to vote on the future of our country simply because we are trying to do the best we can to spend our twylight years at the highest standard of living that we can afford.

The salt in the wound is that any Tom, Dick, or Harry from anywhere in the world who happens to have registered in Scotland in 2014 will be eligible to vote. I personally find this way beyond bizarre!!! Acrimony is way too mild a wprd.

By the way I am paying UK tax on my pension and I served in the armed forces should anyone wish to know.

Couldn't agree more - on every point. And here was me wondering if I was the only one!

I suspect there may be many more, than you and me, in the same or very similar circumstances??

Doesn't seem right or fair does it?

Surely it would be a wicked injustice to condemn our compatriots to the lonely misery of secession when we are not willing to share their bleak hardship. Given the freedom of movement legislation and therefore the liberties enjoyed by Poles and Brits in any future independent Scotland, How many of us will be swapping our passports for a new tartan one? How will eligibility be determined?

SC

Will Johnny Foreigners living in Scotland be eligible to vote? Or only Brits? EU nationals? BNOs?

As far as I am aware at the present time only persons registered on the electorial roll in Scotland

at the time of the referendum are eligible to cast their vote on independance for Scotland, but I am

unsure whether or not 16,17 year olds can register on the electorial roll ??? although it has been

stated that they will be eligible to vote. Any knowledgeable posts welcomed???

Edited November 28, 2012 by phuketjock

[phuketjock]

After some research on the Scottish election commision website it seems that the

age for registration is 16 but voting age is 18 in Scotland and that there may be

a requirement for legislation to allow voters aged 16,17 to vote, enquiries are

apparently ongoing.

I also found on another UK government site stating that if you left UK less than 15 years

ago then you are eligible to vote " in general elections and referendums"

( my underline ) if you are British.

It would seem that there are some things requiring clarification before 2014!!!

Edited November 29, 2012 by phuketjock

[jpinx]

After some research on the Scottish election commision website it seems that the

age for registration is 16 but voting age is 18 in Scotland and that there may be

a requirement for legislation to allow voters aged 16,17 to vote, enquiries are

apparently ongoing.

I also found on another UK government site stating that if you left UK less than 15 years

ago then you are eligible to vote " in general elections and referendums"

( my underline ) if you are British.

It would seem that there are some things requiring clarification before 2014!!!

Well researched I hope this information is widely broadcast for all ex-pat Scots. Who knows - it might provoke another landslide

[7by7]

Scottish independence: 'Deal agreed' on referendum

Scotland Office Minister, David Mundell, who has been involved in the negotiations, told the BBC...................

..............."It will be up to Scottish Parliament to determine who can vote in the referendum in Scotland.........................."

Scots expats will NOT get to vote in independence referendum say SNP

THE Scottish Government has rejected calls to extend the vote on independence to expatriates.

It followed the proposal by a Labour MSP to let Scots living outside the country take part in the referendum, due to be held in autumn 2014.

Government strategy minister Bruce Crawford said the idea goes against international precedent and would prove too complex.

Speaking in a debate on the issue at Holyrood, he said only those registered to vote in Scotland will be eligible................

"..........in determining the rules for an independence referendum, the Scottish Government's view is that voting rights should be based firmly on residency."

[smokie36]

It is only right and proper that residents of Scotland have their say. Expats don't count....and rightly so. If you want to vote then obtain Thai citizenship!

[elliss]

good news for the jocks,

is there any possibility the brits will be allowed to vote on, leaving the European Economic Cockup

democracy , i think not .

Edited November 29, 2012 by elliss

[jpinx]

Scottish independence: 'Deal agreed' on referendum

Scotland Office Minister, David Mundell, who has been involved in the negotiations, told the BBC...................

..............."It will be up to Scottish Parliament to determine who can vote in the referendum in Scotland.........................."

Scots expats will NOT get to vote in independence referendum say SNP

THE Scottish Government has rejected calls to extend the vote on independence to expatriates.

It followed the proposal by a Labour MSP to let Scots living outside the country take part in the referendum, due to be held in autumn 2014.

Government strategy minister Bruce Crawford said the idea goes against international precedent and would prove too complex.

Speaking in a debate on the issue at Holyrood, he said only those registered to vote in Scotland will be eligible................

"..........in determining the rules for an independence referendum, the Scottish Government's view is that voting rights should be based firmly on residency."

Back to plan A - get yourself on the electoral roll at some family members address......

Edited November 29, 2012 by jpinx

[MAJIC]

Scottish independence: 'Deal agreed' on referendum

Scotland Office Minister, David Mundell, who has been involved in the negotiations, told the BBC...................

..............."It will be up to Scottish Parliament to determine who can vote in the referendum in Scotland.........................."

Scots expats will NOT get to vote in independence referendum say SNP

THE Scottish Government has rejected calls to extend the vote on independence to expatriates.

It followed the proposal by a Labour MSP to let Scots living outside the country take part in the referendum, due to be held in autumn 2014.

Government strategy minister Bruce Crawford said the idea goes against international precedent and would prove too complex.

Speaking in a debate on the issue at Holyrood, he said only those registered to vote in Scotland will be eligible................

"..........in determining the rules for an independence referendum, the Scottish Government's view is that voting rights should be based firmly on residency."

I wonder what the Government and the SNP are worried about by denying Scottish Expats the vote,and amazingly allowing 15 and 17 year olds the vote? perhaps they think more expats are likely to vote NO? than YES?

Edited November 29, 2012 by MAJIC

[smokie36]

Perhaps there is a desire to involve young Scots in the democratic process?

The younger they start the more likely they will continue to use their vote.

Works for tobacco companies anyway.....

[MAJIC]

Perhaps there is a desire to involve young Scots in the democratic process?

The younger they start the more likely they will continue to use their vote.

Works for tobacco companies anyway.....

Interesting theory,but I suspect something more of a devious nature than that!

[smokie36]

Perhaps there is a desire to involve young Scots in the democratic process?

The younger they start the more likely they will continue to use their vote.

Works for tobacco companies anyway.....

Interesting theory,but I suspect something more of a devious nature than that!

We expect that of you!

[StreetCowboy]

Scottish independence: 'Deal agreed' on referendum

Scotland Office Minister, David Mundell, who has been involved in the negotiations, told the BBC...................

..............."It will be up to Scottish Parliament to determine who can vote in the referendum in Scotland.........................."

Scots expats will NOT get to vote in independence referendum say SNP

THE Scottish Government has rejected calls to extend the vote on independence to expatriates.

It followed the proposal by a Labour MSP to let Scots living outside the country take part in the referendum, due to be held in autumn 2014.

Government strategy minister Bruce Crawford said the idea goes against international precedent and would prove too complex.

Speaking in a debate on the issue at Holyrood, he said only those registered to vote in Scotland will be eligible................

"..........in determining the rules for an independence referendum, the Scottish Government's view is that voting rights should be based firmly on residency."

I wonder what the Government and the SNP are worried about by denying Scottish Expats the vote,and amazingly allowing 15 and 17 year olds the vote? perhaps they think more expats are likely to vote NO? than YES?

It seems only fair to restrict the vote to those that will suffer the consequences. There is currently no way of definitively distiguishing Scots from English * so which expat brits would you let vote?

SC

* on the subject of differentiation; we were stopped by a chap shining a torch into the car

"Ony Catholics in this car?"

"dinnae be daft, son"

"sorry, lads, but ye cannae tell. They look mair and mair like us a' the time"

----

" 'Look like us?' Whit an eejit that boy wiz!"

"yer ded on thair, Imam, an' take that effin' Keffiyah oaf, eh?"

[jocko]

If Scotland votes for it Cornwall will be next where will it all end, Depression setting in. All countries can have a gripe, Just look at European history we are all mongrels look at the English language . Oh dear pass the Valium .

PS Davy Crocket had Scottish blood as did the great Johnny Cash just to mention a hundred ---------------------------------------------------------

[jpinx]

If Scotland votes for it Cornwall will be next where will it all end, Depression setting in. All countries can have a gripe, Just look at European history we are all mongrels look at the English language . Oh dear pass the Valium .

PS Davy Crocket had Scottish blood as did the great Johnny Cash just to mention a hundred ---------------------------------------------------------

Oi !! Johnny Cash's family came from Ireland

[jpinx]

Does Sean Connery get to vote ?

[smokie36]

Does Sean Connery get to vote ?

No.

[endure]

It seems only fair to restrict the vote to those that will suffer the consequences. There is currently no way of definitively distiguishing Scots from English * so which expat brits would you let vote?

Kilts and monocles surely?

[smokie36]

It seems only fair to restrict the vote to those that will suffer the consequences. There is currently no way of definitively distiguishing Scots from English * so which expat brits would you let vote?

Kilts and monocles surely?

There will be no suffering....except for those without gloves and scarves!

[MAJIC]

Does Sean Connery get to vote ?

He shouldn't do,or the rest of the expat/tax avoiders!

[folium]

Does Sean Connery get to vote ?

No.

If he gets on the electoral roll he will, and for the uncrowned King of Scotland I'm sure arrangements can be made....

[MAJIC]

Does Sean Connery get to vote ?

No.

What about Mel Gibson,after all the Historical lies he told for the Scots?