Second Anti-Govt Rally Planned At Government House: Thailand

[MILT]

At long last, the seeds of discontent are starting to grow in numbers.

I hope they grow & have a good harvest, if as good as the rice crop then the government will be in trouble.

Are you hoping for more riots, airport seizures, military coups, corrupt political courts so the democrats can get back in?

I know they can't win an election but that is too extreme for me.

No one is hoping for the scenarios you have mentioned. This rally was not based on a particular campaign agenda to get the Democratic s "back in". It appears, in my opinion that it was a peaceful non threatening demonstration to have a collective voice in shutting down this farce of a government. The Democratic's lost the last election do to several reasons one of them being "Vote buying". To suggest that courts are corrupted you would have show me proof of your accusations and not just lose talk based on nothing. Funny how the courts are corrupted but no mention of the obvious nepotism, cronyism and corruption and a Puppet Prime Minister.

[Skywalker69]

Police estimated the crowd at 6,000

I wouldn´t trust them they are x-colleagues to Thaksin.

[Skywalker69]

At long last, the seeds of discontent are starting to grow in numbers.

I hope they grow & have a good harvest, if as good as the rice crop then the government will be in trouble.

Are you hoping for more riots, airport seizures, military coups, corrupt political courts so the democrats can get back in?

I know they can't win an election but that is too extreme for me.

Are you against democracy in action?

[whybother]

Ahhhhh, but there's the nub. He's acting like he's their best mate, not just some unwashed, ill educated mass north of rangsit.

The dems will take 40 years to undo the influence of PTP in Isaan and the north.

The Dems had their chance, they missed it. That's politics.

The Dems have a couple of seats up north and also in the East. Also, in Central areas, the PTP won a few seats with as little as 30% of the vote, so it wouldn't take too much to get past that.

My prediction ... next election PTP won't get a majority of seats, but will form government with a coalition. The election after ... who knows.

[Thai at Heart]

Ahhhhh, but there's the nub. He's acting like he's their best mate, not just some unwashed, ill educated mass north of rangsit.

The dems will take 40 years to undo the influence of PTP in Isaan and the north.

The Dems had their chance, they missed it. That's politics.

The Dems have a couple of seats up north and also in the East. Also, in Central areas, the PTP won a few seats with as little as 30% of the vote, so it wouldn't take too much to get past that.

My prediction ... next election PTP won't get a majority of seats, but will form government with a coalition. The election after ... who knows.

Possible. By then abhisit may have to make way if he loses the next election. Who have they got that can appeal to the "poor" in the north, north east. Sondhis love child? Suthep or chuans grandson? Yawn.

Of course, what they should do is canvas around and find some powerful families in the reds areas and commandeer the kids quickly through the ranks. But could you imagine a democrat from issaan in a powerful position.

What would the neighbors think if we had him over for dinner. Lest we forget this is a country where a major role model for isaan are the darker skin roles or as maids on sitcoms.

[nurofiend]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Hopefully this will lead to less corruption.

Ever heard of being democratically elected and ousted because of massive corruption?

Stealing billions is fine if you are elected right?

You understand democracy right?

yes.

no, is that what you are saying is happening, with evidence to back it up of course?

no i have no idea, please explain it to me.

[rubl]

Pitak Siam, Yellow shirts, Multi-coloured shirts....they are all the same bunch that turn out every time. Same inbreeds, different name. Take a look at the key speakers, all yellow & multis. And yes who was right, front & centre...no other than the wonderfully insane Dr DNA Tul. If you don't know about this freak, please do some research.

'inbreeds', 'insane Dr. DNA Tul', 'freak' ?

I assume you're not in Thailand dear Rich teacher. Thai defamation laws are really strict

Well you should mention that to those who constantly abuse the reds, and the Shinawatra family including the current PM

Should I? You mean 'why me and not the others'? Have to start somewhere, my dear chap.

[MAJIC]

Up to now this Government PTP has had little resistance,from other Parties,or indeed the people, whilst it quietly made very poor decisions of Thailands future,or none at all, A Government run by the incompetant,inexperienced,and inept,Run by a Puppetmaster,who dare not enter the Country he controls,for fear of Justice being meted out for his past illegal activities,and having to serve a Jail sentence,which Judgment has already been passed.

Let the fight back begin!

[MAJIC]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Hopefully this will lead to less corruption.

Ever heard of being democratically elected and ousted because of massive corruption?

Stealing billions is fine if you are elected right?

You understand democracy right?

yes.

no, is that what you are saying is happening, with evidence to back it up of course?

no i have no idea, please explain it to me.

Ask the Redshirts,they are also finding Democracy difficult to understand,so you are not on your own.

[metisdead]

A reply to a post has been removed as the act of replying to the post altered the quoted text. When replying to a post do not reply within the quoted even with different colored font. Correct way to respond to certain parts of a post is to use the quote function. Replies containing the altered quoted post have been removed as well.

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[Nickymaster]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Hopefully this will lead to less corruption.

Ever heard of being democratically elected and ousted because of massive corruption?

Stealing billions is fine if you are elected right?

You understand democracy right?

yes.

no, is that what you are saying is happening, with evidence to back it up of course?

no i have no idea, please explain it to me.

"no i have no idea, please explain it to me"

You just confirmed what I thought. Thx.

[Gary A]

What some people don't realize is that the democrats have a major problem that there is no cure for. The problem is that they can't win an election. The elite hate democracy, The idea of one person, one vote just doesn't work for them. They just refuse to accept that a poor farmer's vote counts for as much as their vote.

It's possible that the very rich, powerful and equally very corrupt can somehow arrange another coup. After the coup, then what? Maybe totally kill democracy? Another election will end up with the same result.

Corrupt politicians? Of course they are corrupt. Not just one side or the other, they all abide by the same code. You don't tell on me and I won't tell on you regardless of their party.

[h90]

What some people don't realize is that the democrats have a major problem that there is no cure for. The problem is that they can't win an election. The elite hate democracy, The idea of one person, one vote just doesn't work for them. They just refuse to accept that a poor farmer's vote counts for as much as their vote.

It's possible that the very rich, powerful and equally very corrupt can somehow arrange another coup. After the coup, then what? Maybe totally kill democracy? Another election will end up with the same result.

Corrupt politicians? Of course they are corrupt. Not just one side or the other, they all abide by the same code. You don't tell on me and I won't tell on you regardless of their party.

You are mixing some things. The democrats don't have the money to win elections. The Democrats aren't the elite, people like the Shinawatras are the elite. And the coups and the demonstrations were always to restore democracy.

And on corruption there is a big difference if someone pockets 5-10 % "commission" or something like 50-60 % and destroying structures, like "privatize" state property so he can get it for little money

[Thai at Heart]

What some people don't realize is that the democrats have a major problem that there is no cure for. The problem is that they can't win an election. The elite hate democracy, The idea of one person, one vote just doesn't work for them. They just refuse to accept that a poor farmer's vote counts for as much as their vote.

It's possible that the very rich, powerful and equally very corrupt can somehow arrange another coup. After the coup, then what? Maybe totally kill democracy? Another election will end up with the same result.

Corrupt politicians? Of course they are corrupt. Not just one side or the other, they all abide by the same code. You don't tell on me and I won't tell on you regardless of their party.

You are mixing some things. The democrats don't have the money to win elections. The Democrats aren't the elite, people like the Shinawatras are the elite. And the coups and the demonstrations were always to restore democracy.

And on corruption there is a big difference if someone pockets 5-10 % "commission" or something like 50-60 % and destroying structures, like "privatize" state property so he can get it for little money

It isn't solely about money. They basically neglected the North and the North East forever, and chose to deal with local politicians up there and throw them a bone every now again instead of building their own political strength in these areas. It isn't as though they didn't have the chance over their history. They are too Bangkok and South biased, and that is the reality they have to deal with, and the whole system is too Bangkok centric. PTP has smashed that situation wide open and the Dems have been left hanging in the wind.

Who knows, maybe this a legacy of the army attempting to prevent a truly nationwide political party, which if it is the case, has come back to bite them on the ass.

Now their chance has passed, and Thaksin has solidified all of these guys under the PTP banner

[Gary A]

What some people don't realize is that the democrats have a major problem that there is no cure for. The problem is that they can't win an election. The elite hate democracy, The idea of one person, one vote just doesn't work for them. They just refuse to accept that a poor farmer's vote counts for as much as their vote.

It's possible that the very rich, powerful and equally very corrupt can somehow arrange another coup. After the coup, then what? Maybe totally kill democracy? Another election will end up with the same result.

Corrupt politicians? Of course they are corrupt. Not just one side or the other, they all abide by the same code. You don't tell on me and I won't tell on you regardless of their party.

You are mixing some things. The democrats don't have the money to win elections. The Democrats aren't the elite, people like the Shinawatras are the elite. And the coups and the demonstrations were always to restore democracy.

And on corruption there is a big difference if someone pockets 5-10 % "commission" or something like 50-60 % and destroying structures, like "privatize" state property so he can get it for little money

The democratic party may not have the money but the democrat and other politicians certainly must have plenty. I seem to remember that somewhere around 191 million baht in donations to the democrat party came up missing. What happened to that money? Has anyone gone to jail for the massive corruption involving the Bangkok fire trucks and fire boats deal. That didn't involve millions, it was billions.

My wife recently voted in the local elections. She came home with 800 baht in her pocket that came from several politicians. I asked her who she voted for and she told me that she voted for whoever she wanted to vote for, but took the money from whoever was offering it.

The entire system is rife with corruption and people who try to paint one side or the other as dirtier should wake up look at the entire picture of all the politicians.

[whybother]

The democratic party may not have the money but the democrat and other politicians certainly must have plenty. I seem to remember that somewhere around 191 million baht in donations to the democrat party came up missing. What happened to that money? Has anyone gone to jail for the massive corruption involving the Bangkok fire trucks and fire boats deal. That didn't involve millions, it was billions.

My wife recently voted in the local elections. She came home with 800 baht in her pocket that came from several politicians. I asked her who she voted for and she told me that she voted for whoever she wanted to vote for, but took the money from whoever was offering it.

The entire system is rife with corruption and people who try to paint one side or the other as dirtier should wake up look at the entire picture of all the politicians.

"Bangkok fire trucks"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/485785-bangkok-fire-truck-scandal-nacc-files-charges-against-apirak/

BMA had instructed a bank to open the Letter of Credit for the deal on August 31, 2004

The one who signed the purchase agreement (Samak) is now dead.

"191 million baht in donations" ... more information please.

[Buchholz]

Meanwhile, to counter the anti-government rally, infamously violent Red Shirt Leader Kwanchai has come out to say his Love-Udon-Red-Shirt-Or-Else faction will hold a counter-rally anywhere in the country that Pitak shows up at.

He went on to issue threats to the current government that if they fail to return Thaksin to Thailand within their four years of administrating, his group will pull their support from them.

In response, Deputy Prime Minister Police Captain Chalerm has told the Red Shirts to stay put and not come to Bangkok to counter-demonstrate. He said if they were dissatisfied, they could protest locally at their provincial halls.

(not addressed was that the last time Red Shirts demonstrated locally at provincial halls, their arson burned a number of them out of commission)

,

Edited October 30, 2012 by Buchholz

[Thai at Heart]

Meanwhile, to counter the anti-government rally, infamously violent Red Shirt Leader Kwanchai has come out to say his Love-Udon-Red-Shirt-Or-Else faction will hold a counter-rally anywhere in the country that Pitak shows up at.

He went on to issue threats to the current government that if they fail to return Thaksin to Thailand within their four years of administrating, his group will pull their support from them.

In response, Deputy Prime Minister Police Captain Chalerm has told the Red Shirts to stay put and not come to Bangkok to counter-demonstrate. He said if they were dissatisfied, they could protest locally at their provincial halls.

(not addressed was that the last time Red Shirts demonstrated locally at provincial halls, they burned a number of them out of commission)

,

Which is exactly why the concept of inpromptu large scale public rallies are a good and a bad thing. The precedent is set by the yellows and the red proved that all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want.

So, since the authorities aren't going to act to stop people sitting down as long as they want, the opposition protesters are going to do the authorities job. Once again a massive failing of the "system", because Thailand has an utterly ineffective judicial system and police force to enforce judgements about things like blocking public highways and the such.

Lets see what this Pitak group does. A public protest is all good, but if they start erecting stages, sitting down in the road for extended periods, the reds are going to go barmy.

[whybother]

Meanwhile, to counter the anti-government rally, infamously violent Red Shirt Leader Kwanchai has come out to say his Love-Udon-Red-Shirt-Or-Else faction will hold a counter-rally anywhere in the country that Pitak shows up at.

He went on to issue threats to the current government that if they fail to return Thaksin to Thailand within their four years of administrating, his group will pull their support from them.

In response, Deputy Prime Minister Police Captain Chalerm has told the Red Shirts to stay put and not come to Bangkok to counter-demonstrate. He said if they were dissatisfied, they could protest locally at their provincial halls.

(not addressed was that the last time Red Shirts demonstrated locally at provincial halls, their arson burned a number of them out of commission)

,

Interesting that he also said that PTP two previous incarnations had failed to bring Thaksin home. I wonder how TRT could have brought him home?

[OzMick]

Meanwhile, to counter the anti-government rally, infamously violent Red Shirt Leader Kwanchai has come out to say his Love-Udon-Red-Shirt-Or-Else faction will hold a counter-rally anywhere in the country that Pitak shows up at.

He went on to issue threats to the current government that if they fail to return Thaksin to Thailand within their four years of administrating, his group will pull their support from them.

In response, Deputy Prime Minister Police Captain Chalerm has told the Red Shirts to stay put and not come to Bangkok to counter-demonstrate. He said if they were dissatisfied, they could protest locally at their provincial halls.

(not addressed was that the last time Red Shirts demonstrated locally at provincial halls, they burned a number of them out of commission)

,

Which is exactly why the concept of inpromptu large scale public rallies are a good and a bad thing. The precedent is set by the yellows and the red proved that all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want.

So, since the authorities aren't going to act to stop people sitting down as long as they want, the opposition protesters are going to do the authorities job. Once again a massive failing of the "system", because Thailand has an utterly ineffective judicial system and police force to enforce judgements about things like blocking public highways and the such.

Lets see what this Pitak group does. A public protest is all good, but if they start erecting stages, sitting down in the road for extended periods, the reds are going to go barmy.

Again, in the name of historical accuracy, may I point out that " all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want. " is far from what happened in 2010.

And if the Pitak group starts doing what the reds like to pretend they were doing in 2010, the reds are going to go barmy??? Is barmy another word for a murderous rage?

Note to Pitak - don't carry any wall-clocks to your protest. Last demonstrators to do so were physically assaulted by a group of reds because it was "thought" to be part of a bomb. Miniaturisation has yet to reach Isaan apparently.

[Thai at Heart]

Meanwhile, to counter the anti-government rally, infamously violent Red Shirt Leader Kwanchai has come out to say his Love-Udon-Red-Shirt-Or-Else faction will hold a counter-rally anywhere in the country that Pitak shows up at.

He went on to issue threats to the current government that if they fail to return Thaksin to Thailand within their four years of administrating, his group will pull their support from them.

In response, Deputy Prime Minister Police Captain Chalerm has told the Red Shirts to stay put and not come to Bangkok to counter-demonstrate. He said if they were dissatisfied, they could protest locally at their provincial halls.

(not addressed was that the last time Red Shirts demonstrated locally at provincial halls, they burned a number of them out of commission)

,

Which is exactly why the concept of inpromptu large scale public rallies are a good and a bad thing. The precedent is set by the yellows and the red proved that all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want.

So, since the authorities aren't going to act to stop people sitting down as long as they want, the opposition protesters are going to do the authorities job. Once again a massive failing of the "system", because Thailand has an utterly ineffective judicial system and police force to enforce judgements about things like blocking public highways and the such.

Lets see what this Pitak group does. A public protest is all good, but if they start erecting stages, sitting down in the road for extended periods, the reds are going to go barmy.

Again, in the name of historical accuracy, may I point out that " all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want. " is far from what happened in 2010.

And if the Pitak group starts doing what the reds like to pretend they were doing in 2010, the reds are going to go barmy??? Is barmy another word for a murderous rage?

Note to Pitak - don't carry any wall-clocks to your protest. Last demonstrators to do so were physically assaulted by a group of reds because it was "thought" to be part of a bomb. Miniaturisation has yet to reach Isaan apparently.

I have little doubt that if the Pitak group assembles in Bangkok and creates a sit in protest that goes on for extended time, it will be just like the PAD protests of yesteryear, with a completely useless police force trying their best to get them to move on, but failing utterly, and the reds will up the ante very quickly resulting in the odd grenade, initially, ending in a nasty crescendo and a coup.

The PAD started with rallies, where everyone went home at the end of the night, but no one paid them any attention, so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it. Now someone else is going to have a go. Lets see how long it takes until it becomes another season of part of downtown Bangkok being commandeered. Not long I reckon, or the reds will realise the only way is to nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty.

[MunterHunter]

Blood on the streets by Christmas

[Gary A]

The democratic party may not have the money but the democrat and other politicians certainly must have plenty. I seem to remember that somewhere around 191 million baht in donations to the democrat party came up missing. What happened to that money? Has anyone gone to jail for the massive corruption involving the Bangkok fire trucks and fire boats deal. That didn't involve millions, it was billions.

My wife recently voted in the local elections. She came home with 800 baht in her pocket that came from several politicians. I asked her who she voted for and she told me that she voted for whoever she wanted to vote for, but took the money from whoever was offering it.

The entire system is rife with corruption and people who try to paint one side or the other as dirtier should wake up look at the entire picture of all the politicians.

"Bangkok fire trucks"

http://www.thaivisa....against-apirak/

BMA had instructed a bank to open the Letter of Credit for the deal on August 31, 2004

The one who signed the purchase agreement (Samak) is now dead.

"191 million baht in donations" ... more information please.

One of the culprits died so the rest of them are permitted to slither away?

You can research the missing money. I won't bother to concern myself with things I have no control over. From what I can remember the money was donated by big businesses which is apparently somehow illegal. When it came time to prosecute someone, the money had disappeared and the mess was buried as are most of the other corrupt acts.

[whybother]

One of the culprits died so the rest of them are permitted to slither away?

You can research the missing money. I won't bother to concern myself with things I have no control over. From what I can remember the money was donated by big businesses which is apparently somehow illegal. When it came time to prosecute someone, the money had disappeared and the mess was buried as are most of the other corrupt acts.

The question is "Who are the others?"

The Democrats weren't in power in Bangkok at the time the deal was signed.

I tried searching for the missing money and couldn't find anything specific for (or near) that amount. I think you might be referring to the TPI Polene case.

[Gary A]

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

[h90]

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

yes all politicians are corrupt, here and in the west....that it the reason they went into this job....

But there is a difference between normal small corruption and a corruption that destroys the country.

The fire truck corruption died because Samak died just before they get him at court.

The juristic system in Thailand is complete inefficient....I recall that Sondhi told that there are 500 cases against him at court.

Obviously there is no possibility that the court simply don't accept nonsense cases, to have enough resources to do the real cases.

And of course the politicians are not interested to make it more efficient. That is one of the reasons that many people hope for a coup and a "good dictator" who fix all problems.

(which is as realistic as believing in Santa Claus)

[smutcakes]

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

yes all politicians are corrupt, here and in the west....that it the reason they went into this job....

But there is a difference between normal small corruption and a corruption that destroys the country.

The fire truck corruption died because Samak died just before they get him at court.

The juristic system in Thailand is complete inefficient....I recall that Sondhi told that there are 500 cases against him at court.

Obviously there is no possibility that the court simply don't accept nonsense cases, to have enough resources to do the real cases.

And of course the politicians are not interested to make it more efficient. That is one of the reasons that many people hope for a coup and a "good dictator" who fix all problems.

(which is as realistic as believing in Santa Claus)

So in your opinion who is this good dictator? you are very critical of the current administration which is fair enough, it looks like there is all sorts going on, but where are your solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Who in the Army or whoever who could instigate a coup put in charge? and why should people really trust the army, they are not squeaky clean themselves.

As i think DrEvil.... mentioned today, the ideal scenario would be for politicians like Abihisit and Korn to form their own party.

[McMagus]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Any democratic solution at the moment will be anyway more democratic than what we have now.....

You heroes are not really an example of democracy

Your views are fantastic... keeps me up all night having a good laugh.

I attended a public forum a few years ago and an academic from one of the universities in all seriousness said and I quote..

'We keep giving them democratic elections but they keep voting in the wrong people'.

Clearly he was not talking about Democrat victories.

[h90]

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

yes all politicians are corrupt, here and in the west....that it the reason they went into this job....

But there is a difference between normal small corruption and a corruption that destroys the country.

The fire truck corruption died because Samak died just before they get him at court.

The juristic system in Thailand is complete inefficient....I recall that Sondhi told that there are 500 cases against him at court.

Obviously there is no possibility that the court simply don't accept nonsense cases, to have enough resources to do the real cases.

And of course the politicians are not interested to make it more efficient. That is one of the reasons that many people hope for a coup and a "good dictator" who fix all problems.

(which is as realistic as believing in Santa Claus)

So in your opinion who is this good dictator? you are very critical of the current administration which is fair enough, it looks like there is all sorts going on, but where are your solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Who in the Army or whoever who could instigate a coup put in charge? and why should people really trust the army, they are not squeaky clean themselves.

As i think DrEvil.... mentioned today, the ideal scenario would be for politicians like Abihisit and Korn to form their own party.

I don't believe in a "good dictator" but I believe that any half decent person would be better than this bunch of criminals which are in power now.

Why should people really trust the army?

a) over many years the army tried their best to help and it is very popular in the south and in Bangkok (I don't know North or Northeast, it might be very different there).

the government after the last coup was the best one I saw in the last 12 years. While they didn't do as much as I hoped they were reasonable and clean.

c) I can't imagine any worse government than the current one, we are somehow on the bottom already.

[OzMick]

Again, in the name of historical accuracy, may I point out that " all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want. " is far from what happened in 2010.

And if the Pitak group starts doing what the reds like to pretend they were doing in 2010, the reds are going to go barmy??? Is barmy another word for a murderous rage?

Note to Pitak - don't carry any wall-clocks to your protest. Last demonstrators to do so were physically assaulted by a group of reds because it was "thought" to be part of a bomb. Miniaturisation has yet to reach Isaan apparently.

I have little doubt that if the Pitak group assembles in Bangkok and creates a sit in protest that goes on for extended time, it will be just like the PAD protests of yesteryear, with a completely useless police force trying their best to get them to move on, but failing utterly, and the reds will up the ante very quickly resulting in the odd grenade, initially, ending in a nasty crescendo and a coup.

The PAD started with rallies, where everyone went home at the end of the night, but no one paid them any attention, so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it. Now someone else is going to have a go. Lets see how long it takes until it becomes another season of part of downtown Bangkok being commandeered. Not long I reckon, or the reds will realise the only way is to nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty.

For some reason your version of history downplays the level of violence exhibited by the reds. "The PAD....... so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it." M-79 and RPG attacks, MIB, blood pouring, barricades were red and red alone.

Now your saying that if PAD et al try to occupy downtown in an attempt to overthrow the government, the reds will turn even more violent to prevent this. Wouldn't violence from a political parties private militia against people peacefully exercising their democratic rights be justifiable grounds for a coup? Don't the reds know any political solutions other than violence and mob rule?