Second Anti-Govt Rally Planned At Government House: Thailand

[DocN]

At long last, the seeds of discontent are starting to grow in numbers.

I hope they grow & have a good harvest, if as good as the rice crop then the government will be in trouble.

Are you hoping for more riots, airport seizures, military coups, corrupt political courts so the democrats can get back in?

I know they can't win an election but that is too extreme for me.

I don;t recollect the democrats or yellows causing any riots.... that's a trademark of the red shirts.

Now THAT is interesting!

Oh no...it was just good food and music at Survanabhumi!

[smutcakes]

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

yes all politicians are corrupt, here and in the west....that it the reason they went into this job....

But there is a difference between normal small corruption and a corruption that destroys the country.

The fire truck corruption died because Samak died just before they get him at court.

The juristic system in Thailand is complete inefficient....I recall that Sondhi told that there are 500 cases against him at court.

Obviously there is no possibility that the court simply don't accept nonsense cases, to have enough resources to do the real cases.

And of course the politicians are not interested to make it more efficient. That is one of the reasons that many people hope for a coup and a "good dictator" who fix all problems.

(which is as realistic as believing in Santa Claus)

So in your opinion who is this good dictator? you are very critical of the current administration which is fair enough, it looks like there is all sorts going on, but where are your solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Who in the Army or whoever who could instigate a coup put in charge? and why should people really trust the army, they are not squeaky clean themselves.

As i think DrEvil.... mentioned today, the ideal scenario would be for politicians like Abihisit and Korn to form their own party.

I don't believe in a "good dictator" but I believe that any half decent person would be better than this bunch of criminals which are in power now.

Why should people really trust the army?

a) over many years the army tried their best to help and it is very popular in the south and in Bangkok (I don't know North or Northeast, it might be very different there).

the government after the last coup was the best one I saw in the last 12 years. While they didn't do as much as I hoped they were reasonable and clean.

c) I can't imagine any worse government than the current one, we are somehow on the bottom already.

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

[DocN]

"Tul said his multicoloured-shirt group and the allies should have a clear idea by late next week of how to move against the government." The proper way to "move against the government" in a democratic society is to run against the seated officials in the next election. The current government was voted in and the only proper way to remove them is to vote them out. The courts are certainly friendly to the anti-government folks; therefore, if they have any real evidence of corruption they can always take the matter to the courts. It appears to me to be a large jerk off rally.

The proper way for parties to run elections is without full scale vote buying.

So if you buy your way into power instead of democratic elections you should not whine if pro democracy groups want to oust you.

You & nobody really knows the extent and perpetrators of vote buying, so claiming one side is worse than the other is pointless. You simply can't get accurate statistics on this. Claiming that 'my brother-in=law said....' simply doesn't cut it. PT tried time & time again to have independent international observers to oversee the election & voting, but the coalition refused it (along with Preah temple as well of course).

Also please explain how paying money can make someone inside a secure, private voting booth cross the name of a particular candidate or party.

Don't pretend to be silly....It is well known that everyone gets his money.....It is complete in the open and people speak about how much they got from what party. The Democrats may have some minor cases but they have no billionaire who can pay that. And it wouldn't make much sense as the South vote for them anyhow and Isaan wouldn't vote for them even if they pay.

And you may or may not recall the discussion about banning mobile phones when voting (make a picture of what you voted) and when Thaksin made the voting boots so small so you can see what people vote for (proofed by the PAD showing what his wife voted (surely illegal to film that)).

Beside that it is a cultural thing that low educated people outside the centers are grateful for gifts.

Of course that is an educational thing.

But who is blocking the Democrats and the PAD to promote their views in the Northeast??

So...as long as the Democrats don't have enough money, their attempts of vote- buying are ...somehow okay?

[OzMick]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

Notice that you are not living in Thaksinland?

[smutcakes]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

Notice that you are not living in Thaksinland?

I 100% agree that the army are corrupt, but h90 is making out they have only ever held coups to save democracy, whatever that is here which is patently rubbish as their track record testifies to.

[OzMick]

At long last, the seeds of discontent are starting to grow in numbers.

I hope they grow & have a good harvest, if as good as the rice crop then the government will be in trouble.

Are you hoping for more riots, airport seizures, military coups, corrupt political courts so the democrats can get back in?

I know they can't win an election but that is too extreme for me.

I don;t recollect the democrats or yellows causing any riots.... that's a trademark of the red shirts.

Now THAT is interesting!

Oh no...it was just good food and music at Survanabhumi!

Well, except for those protesters dead and maimed from M-79 attacks. Still a mystery who could have done that.

[DocN]

Seriously...is there anyone here, who can give me any VALUABLE info on this Protect Siam Group? I still can't shake the feeling, they may be a lot...but not democrats. The name somehow gives it away.

[h90]

So...as long as the Democrats don't have enough money, their attempts of vote- buying are ...somehow okay?

No as long as the Democrats don't have enough money, their attempts are non existing.

[Thai at Heart]

Again, in the name of historical accuracy, may I point out that " all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want. " is far from what happened in 2010.

And if the Pitak group starts doing what the reds like to pretend they were doing in 2010, the reds are going to go barmy??? Is barmy another word for a murderous rage?

Note to Pitak - don't carry any wall-clocks to your protest. Last demonstrators to do so were physically assaulted by a group of reds because it was "thought" to be part of a bomb. Miniaturisation has yet to reach Isaan apparently.

I have little doubt that if the Pitak group assembles in Bangkok and creates a sit in protest that goes on for extended time, it will be just like the PAD protests of yesteryear, with a completely useless police force trying their best to get them to move on, but failing utterly, and the reds will up the ante very quickly resulting in the odd grenade, initially, ending in a nasty crescendo and a coup.

The PAD started with rallies, where everyone went home at the end of the night, but no one paid them any attention, so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it. Now someone else is going to have a go. Lets see how long it takes until it becomes another season of part of downtown Bangkok being commandeered. Not long I reckon, or the reds will realise the only way is to nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty.

For some reason your version of history downplays the level of violence exhibited by the reds. "The PAD....... so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it." M-79 and RPG attacks, MIB, blood pouring, barricades were red and red alone.

Now your saying that if PAD et al try to occupy downtown in an attempt to overthrow the government, the reds will turn even more violent to prevent this. Wouldn't violence from a political parties private militia against people peacefully exercising their democratic rights be justifiable grounds for a coup? Don't the reds know any political solutions other than violence and mob rule?

I am not commenting about what happened before, i am giving an opinion about what I believe will happen next.

Raking over what happened before is largely irrelevant in terms if working out how serious any future problems may be.

And no, it doesn't need to cause a coup if only the police and the courts would do their job however, there is plenty of precedent for army being used for crowd control.

However, would the army clear an anti ptp rally? Doubt it

Edited October 30, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[DocN]

So...as long as the Democrats don't have enough money, their attempts of vote- buying are ...somehow okay?

No as long as the Democrats don't have enough money, their attempts are non existing.

wait! Now you are saying the Democrats didn't try to buy votes?

[h90]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

you are sure you don't confuse Thailand with Myanmar?

What grip on everyone?

Where do they mess in civilian matters?

Of course there is corruption inside the army, but nothing close to what the government is doing. The corruption inside the army is like a runny nose in compare to a full scale cancer at the government.

And on what accounts did the army fail massively?

[philw]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

Notice that you are not living in Thaksinland?

He makes a good point, sad you are that you respond with cheap sarcasm.

If you live in Thailand, you might be in Thaksinland...........

it's against the law to call for a coup , is it not ???

Generals, all be it retired, suggesting a " coup" as the way forward is called sedition in Australia, is it not ??

You are proud to be a soldier, defend that position.

[siampolee]

What I find amusing is the fact that all the P.T.P. supporters here are getting their underwear tangled about the anti government protest. demonstration rally last Sunday .

Yet these same people keep on telling us that this P.T.P. is here for eternity in fact in their view said party is unassailable.

Seems as if the delusion serum might just be wearing off and reality is coming into view.

.

[smutcakes]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

you are sure you don't confuse Thailand with Myanmar?

What grip on everyone?

Where do they mess in civilian matters?

Of course there is corruption inside the army, but nothing close to what the government is doing. The corruption inside the army is like a runny nose in compare to a full scale cancer at the government.

And on what accounts did the army fail massively?

If you live here, which i am sure you do, then you will know that most people talk about coups fairly regularly I would of thought for a businessman like you, you would realize this given how politically aware your workforce seem to be.

They mess in civilian matters by having coups, commenting permanently on political matters.

Yes, the corruption now in the government probably far exceeds the army corruption, but how long has that corruption been going on, and to what extent we will never know due to the power they hold over the country. A simple glance at the assets, cars, etc of military personnel and the extended families would suggest it is fairly rampant and has been for decades.

The army failed as we are still in massive political strife, let it take its natural course.

[OzMick]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

Notice that you are not living in Thaksinland?

He makes a good point, sad you are that you respond with cheap sarcasm.

If you live in Thailand, you might be in Thaksinland...........

it's against the law to call for a coup , is it not ???

Generals, all be it retired, suggesting a " coup" as the way forward is called sedition in Australia, is it not ??

You are proud to be a soldier, defend that position.

Let me put it this way Phil. Ex-PM Paul Keating was heavily involved with pig-farming. If his government suggested that they would buy all pork at a 50% premium, including his, and they didn't throw him out of office, I would support a coup to do so. But an Oz PM wouldn't even try that, or remove the capital gains on rural holdings the week before he sold up, because we have laws that are upheld and enforced, and checks and balances to keep governments under control.

And I didn't suggest that the Thaksin reign would continue their criminal endeavours for 20 years, that was their own work.

[OzMick]

Again, in the name of historical accuracy, may I point out that " all you have to do is sit down long enough and you get what you want. " is far from what happened in 2010.

And if the Pitak group starts doing what the reds like to pretend they were doing in 2010, the reds are going to go barmy??? Is barmy another word for a murderous rage?

Note to Pitak - don't carry any wall-clocks to your protest. Last demonstrators to do so were physically assaulted by a group of reds because it was "thought" to be part of a bomb. Miniaturisation has yet to reach Isaan apparently.

I have little doubt that if the Pitak group assembles in Bangkok and creates a sit in protest that goes on for extended time, it will be just like the PAD protests of yesteryear, with a completely useless police force trying their best to get them to move on, but failing utterly, and the reds will up the ante very quickly resulting in the odd grenade, initially, ending in a nasty crescendo and a coup.

The PAD started with rallies, where everyone went home at the end of the night, but no one paid them any attention, so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it. Now someone else is going to have a go. Lets see how long it takes until it becomes another season of part of downtown Bangkok being commandeered. Not long I reckon, or the reds will realise the only way is to nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty.

For some reason your version of history downplays the level of violence exhibited by the reds. "The PAD....... so they went a step further and commandeered downtown. It worked for them. Then the reds largely copied it." M-79 and RPG attacks, MIB, blood pouring, barricades were red and red alone.

Now your saying that if PAD et al try to occupy downtown in an attempt to overthrow the government, the reds will turn even more violent to prevent this. Wouldn't violence from a political parties private militia against people peacefully exercising their democratic rights be justifiable grounds for a coup? Don't the reds know any political solutions other than violence and mob rule?

I am not commenting about what happened before, i am giving an opinion about what I believe will happen next.

Raking over what happened before is largely irrelevant in terms if working out how serious any future problems may be.

And no, it doesn't need to cause a coup if only the police and the courts would do their job however, there is plenty of precedent for army being used for crowd control.

However, would the army clear an anti ptp rally? Doubt it

So the crowd control would be needed for the peaceful anti-government protesters. Who is going to control the reds trying to "nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty."?

Which side is likely to be violent, looking at historical precedent?

[whybother]

Do you not feel that the power of the army and the grip they have on everyone is symptomatic of many of the issues they have in Thailand? i.e until they stay out of civilian matters, it will can always be used as a political tool/threat? Do you completely ignore the army corruption, not to mention the police? If they are assisting the situation by having more coups, by all accounts they have failed massively, or have i missed something?

Notice that you are not living in Thaksinland?

He makes a good point, sad you are that you respond with cheap sarcasm.

If you live in Thailand, you might be in Thaksinland...........

it's against the law to call for a coup , is it not ???

Generals, all be it retired, suggesting a " coup" as the way forward is called sedition in Australia, is it not ??

You are proud to be a soldier, defend that position.

I doubt it is against the law to call for a coup. Free speech and all that.

[nurofiend]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Hopefully this will lead to less corruption.

Ever heard of being democratically elected and ousted because of massive corruption?

Stealing billions is fine if you are elected right?

You understand democracy right?

yes.

no, is that what you are saying is happening, with evidence to back it up of course?

no i have no idea, please explain it to me.

"no i have no idea, please explain it to me"

You just confirmed what I thought. Thx.

ha yeah, i think it's the other way around.

carry on.

[Buchholz]

One of the culprits died so the rest of them are permitted to slither away?

You can research the missing money. I won't bother to concern myself with things I have no control over. From what I can remember the money was donated by big businesses which is apparently somehow illegal. When it came time to prosecute someone, the money had disappeared and the mess was buried as are most of the other corrupt acts.

The question is "Who are the others?"

The Democrats weren't in power in Bangkok at the time the deal was signed.

I tried searching for the missing money and couldn't find anything specific for (or near) that amount. I think you might be referring to the TPI Polene case.

That's my entire point. It doesn't matter who is in power, they are all corrupt. Again just from memory there were five people accused of skimming over four billion baht from the fire truck deal. Like other outrageous thefts, things just get buried and forgotten.

There are seven who were indicted in the 6.6 Billion Baht case.

Five of the seven were directly associated (some very directly) with Thaksin include Bangkok Governor Samak Sundaravej; former interior minister Bhokin Palakula; former deputy interior minister Pracha Maleenont; former commerce minister Watana Muangsuk, Police Major-General Athilak Tanchukiat

One associated with the Democrats, Apirak Kosayodhin.

and one with the Austrian manufacturer, Steyr Daimler Puch.

Bhokin Bhalakula (far right, under the Thaksin banner)

A former deputy prime minister and interior minister, Bhokin Bhalakula is Thaksin's top legal expert and the outgoing speaker of parliament.

He is said to have played a significant role in Mr Thaksin's political strategy in recent months.

As interior minister during Mr Thaksin's first term, he was involved in the 2003 crackdown on drugs which drew criticism from human rights watchers

.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Buchholz

[whybother]

No problems of there being another rally. Boonlert says in the other paper that there won't be a rally if the numbers are less than a million.

[Buchholz]

Anti-government group to stage new rally Nov. 24-25

BANGKOK, Nov 8 - The anti-government Pitak Siam group will rally again Nov 24-25 aiming to draw as many as a million protesters to unseat the Yingluck Shinawatra government. If it fails, organisers say, they will call it quits.

The leader of the new movement, Boonlert Kaewprasit, said today that the second mass rally is initially set to be held at Bangkok’s Royal Turf Club. He expected the demonstration will draw a million participants.

Pitak Siam’s organiser said more details will be given at a news briefing on Saturday.

The retired general denied allegations that prospective demonstrators have been recruited, paid to join the rally. He said that yellow shirt leader Sondhi Limthongkul will not definitely join the rally.

Gen Boonlert pledged he would end the demonstration if the target of one million participants cannot be achieved.

"If it is not successful this time, I will stop the move completely as the people turn their backs (against us)," he said. "If the government stays, I go, if the government ceases to exist, I prevail."

Gen Boonlert downplayed security concerns for his safety, saying he would not ask police for protection. He however urged the police and other agencies not to obstruct people wishing to join the event.

The Pitak Siam leader dismissed the purported assassination plot against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra as groundless, saying he believed the government might want to exploit the matter to sway public attention.

-- TNA 2012-11-08

[whybother]

aiming to draw as many as a million protesters to unseat the Yingluck Shinawatra government. If it fails, organisers say, they will call it quits.

What is their definition of "fails"? Not getting a million protesters? There is as much chance of them getting a million protesters as the red shirts had in 2010. But I doubt they'll call it quits.

[tominbkk]

So that's 60,000 attendees, if it had been a Red-Shirt meeting, right ? Thai maths can be confusing !

Nice to see a peaceful protest-meeting, democracy in action, way to go.

Hooray. Shows that a good protest does not have to inconvenience people or hold a city for ransom with idle threats or arson and pigs-blood splattering!

[tominbkk]

hopefully this will lead to a democratic solution eh guys?

Democracy is not my goal - Thaksin Shinawatra

not that again... why don't you show the ful quote, anyway, i'm not getting into it.

logging out.

ciao.

all that matters is the quote in my signature... and "Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai Acts!"

[Thai at Heart]

So the crowd control would be needed for the peaceful anti-government protesters. Who is going to control the reds trying to "nip this in the bud early, and then it will be very nasty."?

Which side is likely to be violent, looking at historical precedent?

Well, any protest can remain peaceful, but come to a point where it is illegal. Protest is a right, but sitting on public space forever is still illegal. This goes for all sides. Have your protest, but don't put down permanent roots and take over part of town. If you want to do that, do it somewhere you don't inconvenience the entire place. Once that happens, it is perfectly ok with me for the police to have the right to go in, move people on, and arrest and move people who won't go.

When the PAD went into town and put down their roots, the police tried utterly ineptly to break it up, the resistance was very organised, and a lot of people got injured. However, everyone and their dog knew that there was no way the army was ever going to get involved. On the other foot, the reds knew that the police weren't going to get too involved in moving them on, so the army was required. This is what happens when supposedly "independent" organisations become politicised.

It doesn't abrogate the fact though, that once there is a legal order for people to disperse because they have gone beyond the right of protest and are in defiance of the law either by blocking public highways or occupying public areas, all bets are off. Thus, I hope they keep having their protests at the turf club, no one gets hurt, no one gets massively inconvenienced and the publicity is generated. Just don't get any bright ideas and go and plant 10,000 people in the main street in town, put up permenant stages, generators, loud speaker systems. That is destined to end in a biiiiig mess.

[Thai at Heart]

No problems of there being another rally. Boonlert says in the other paper that there won't be a rally if the numbers are less than a million.

How are they supposed to know how many they have until everyone turns up? Whoops, guys, rally is cancelled, we only got 950,000???

[Buchholz]

Thaksin's ex-classmate to show force against Pithak Siam group

Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's former classmate at Pre-Cadet Academy would show force on Friday against the Pithak Siam group, former army chief Chaisith Shinawatra said.

Alumni of class 10th at the Pre-Cadet Academy would gather at a Bangkok hotel to show their support to the government under Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and their former classmate Thaksin, said Chaisith who study in the class fifth at the military academy and also a cousin of Thaksin.

"I do not organise the gathering but our brothers want to express their view. Many of my classmate and I will join them to show our stance," he said.

"It's not the right thing to call a protest to topple the elected government," Chaisith said referring to the anti-government protest. "If the government did anything wrong we should allow the parliament to scrutinise in accordance with democratic way."

Retire General Boonlert Kaewprasit, the leader of Pithak Siam (Protecting Siam) movement, said the next rally against the government would be held on November 24 or 25 and he expected that the number of demonstrators would be 20 times higher than the last rally.

Boonlert's movement held a rally at the Royal Turf Club on October 28, drawing more than 10,000 demonstrators.

He said he would hold a press conference tomorrow to announce more details of the next rally. He said he expected more than 100 groups of activists to join the press conference.

He said he believed the yellow shirted People's Alliance for Democracy would join the next rally although PAD leaders have announced they would not participate in the protest.

Boonlert said the protest would be held on the same causes and he would lay down his "thump card" to try to topple the government if the rally failed to bring it down.

"If the next rally fails, everything will be over and I will not hold another rally. I'll stop my role because I'll regard that the people do not support me," Boonlert said.

"But if a lot of people join the rally and we still fail to oust the government, I'll unveil my thump card."

-- The Nation 2012-11-09