Looking To Rent Land For Sugarcane

[klubex99]

Hi all.

I am new to this forum, and I have spent probably in excess of 40 hours of so reading through the threads over the past week.

I was recently looking at some investment options in Thailand. I live in Muang, Nakhon Ratchasima at present and I am already part way into some projects around farming in particular.

Now I am no farmer, but I do like to study all the pitfalls before jumping into something and rather than spend the next years falling into those pits and climbing my way out half injured, I decided to spend all that time reading and studying and anylising where others have gone wrong (and right). Obviously I can't farm through a screen, so i apreciate that there will be some problems.

Anyway,

I have been interested in sugar since I arrived here, as I see it as a robust crop once the conditions are right. It also seems to have a good stable price that rarely goes down thanks to the latest explosion in ethanol production, demand is always going to be there. I have read up a lot on its biology and all the husbandry techniques known. I think I am ready to go out and get some land and give it a go.

I am not the type of person who likes dirt on his hands, although it would never keep me awake at night if I had to get them stuck into some hard graft. However, I like to work smart rather than work hard.

What I am basically looking for at this moment is 50+ rai of land for rent in the chaiyaphum province, hopefully it will be parcelled together, and will require it on a 5 year minimum contract. I don't know if anyone around that area who may be able to point me in the right direction. I have already driven around my own province for a couple of days but to no avail, and I am a bit insistent on the presence of good water, and the underground water is quite saline here so I have heard so boreholes are probably out in this area.

If in chaiyaphum, I have a good notion that boreholes would be an option if I can't find a site near good surface water.

Cost is pretty much not an issue at the moment. I am ready to invest freely to get what I want with regards to crop investment capital. If for example I can get 50 rai, I intend to set out 44 rai as standard 'rule of thumb' husbandry, the other 6 rai will be split into 6 plots and I will use this as the experimental sugar cultivation using the best practices as to maximise yield. Recently as I am sure you most have read, a cooperation set up an experimental crop and invested heavily in doing it to perfection. cost was around Bt45,000 per rai, but yielded over 100 tons per rai.

Now, I am not going to go for that because of the intensity of the cultivation etc.... I am more than happy to strip down the procedures and have a mix of certain permutations and combinations of methods, so as to get the economics proportioned correctly. If I can achieve 30 ton per rai with a single method with a lot less capital outlay, then I am happy to go ahead and expand it. The other 44 rai will produce enough to pay for the entire experiment (if I have crunched the numbers right).

So if anyone can help me out regarding land, I would be more than grateful, and hey guys, no need to just keep the convo on that track. I would be very very happy to hear any other tips and tricks... What would you do? Is there already a 'perfect' method out there? Would be nice to share your thoughts. If anyone had any questions, fire away, I am an open book

Have a great day.

[Michael Hare]

I don't know much about sugar cane, but I am told that one has to have a contract with the local sugar mill in order to sell the cane. This is unlike cassava, which one can plant and sell when ever one wants to sell, dependent on price. That is why one sees cassava every where in northeast Thailand but only see sugar cane in certain areas in close proximity to sugar mills. I suggest you check out the markets before deciding on planting sugar cane.

[klubex99]

I don't know much about sugar cane, but I am told that one has to have a contract with the local sugar mill in order to sell the cane. This is unlike cassava, which one can plant and sell when ever one wants to sell, dependent on price. That is why one sees cassava every where in northeast Thailand but only see sugar cane in certain areas in close proximity to sugar mills. I suggest you check out the markets before deciding on planting sugar cane.

Thanks Michael.

Yes, I have done a bit of study on that. The reason for needing to be within a certain distance of the mill is because once the cane is cut, it starts to lose its sugar content immediately and needs to be processed fast. There are as I beleive, 47 sugar mills in Thailand, the location is a definite consideration for the siting. There are 16 in northeast so I think most sites will be close enough.

A contract is fine with me, I ultimately need to sell it anyway, its all a proximity thing really. I could ring around and find which processor is giving the best deal and then chose a site around there, but these are finer point logistics and to be honest, I don't think it counts for much because each year prices can change between them and what is best payer one year can be fourth best the next.

The most important things at the moment are soil type and water availability. Trying to find good land around here with good surface water availability is difficult.

[ozzydom]

Your figures may be a bit skewed, the 2011 Thailand average yield was 12.3 tonnes per Rai, a far cry from your quoted figures.

Australia has a fairly high yield of 64 tonne per acre or 25.6 tonne per rai. grown under irrigation.

whereas much of Thailands crop relies on seasonal rains.

[klubex99]

Your figures may be a bit skewed, the 2011 Thailand average yield was 12.3 tonnes per Rai, a far cry from your quoted figures.

Australia has a fairly high yield of 64 tonne per acre or 25.6 tonne per rai. grown under irrigation.

whereas much of Thailands crop relies on seasonal rains.

Hi Ozzydom

Thank you for your input.

I don't think my figures are skewed. I am expecting my 'rule of thumb' for the 44 rai to bring in exactly what I expect rule of thumb to be.... around 10 to 15 tonnes.

My experimental crops on the other 6 rai will be to try to emulate the 103 tonnes achieved between a cooperation between the biggest sugar producer and a university.

I am not expecting to get anywhere near that 100 tonnes, I am looking to find a happy medium of realistic ecconomics and 30+ per rai.

As far as I am aware nobody else is doing this, and I feel the need for myself to at least try it. If I don't at least try it once, then we will never know, If I try it and I fail and lose money, then I don't really care, becaue at least I tried and I know, rather than never try and never know.

[IsaanAussie]

Perhaps you should have another think about Ozzydoms input because there is an underlying factor here that can upset the best plans. Ultimately you have two choices, you do it yourself, however you like, or, you do it the Thai way. Until I experienced this trait personally I didnt believe it, I thought I could teach the locals what I wanted. But Thais will do it the way they know or not at all until they can see results of something better. Very slow to adopt something different.

Good luck with the six rai YOU WILL have to do yourself. Ozzy's numbers will be pretty good for the rest.

[klubex99]

Perhaps you should have another think about Ozzydoms input because there is an underlying factor here that can upset the best plans. Ultimately you have two choices, you do it yourself, however you like, or, you do it the Thai way. Until I experienced this trait personally I didnt believe it, I thought I could teach the locals what I wanted. But Thais will do it the way they know or not at all until they can see results of something better. Very slow to adopt something different.

Good luck with the six rai YOU WILL have to do yourself. Ozzy's numbers will be pretty good for the rest.

Hi IsaanAussie.

Thank you very much for that. I totally agree. I already had the same conversation with my wife, at which she scowled at me... She is very defensive of the Thais and hates negativity, but I know from my own experience that what you say is right.

I am totally expecting to do the 6 rai with my wife, I will also use her cousin who is no sugar farmer which I think is a good thing. The local labour will be doing the 44 rai. Us three will look after the 6, that is the most important thing. The 44 the Thai way will more than adequately cover the entire costs at a 10 tonne per rai yield. There may be a bit of profit, there may be a small loss. But all I am interested in really is the 6 raio experiment. This whole project is about the 6 rai. The rest is just balancing the books.

Anyway, I am going out now to look at 130 rai of which we can rent as little or as much as we want, and it has a small river running alongside, so I know the bit I will be wanting.

[klubex99]

Dang! We drove 2 hours just to get to the dirt track leading to the land. The owners said it was 2km to the land when we spoke on the phone. They sent a bunch of guys to meet us on the main road, when they turned up they said NO! velly far.... 17KM to the land. I went about 1km up the dirt track to a section that had been washed away by a stream that was now dried up, a 4x4 would struggle to breech it, and i just knew then that there was no way we were going to see a truck with drawbar trailer get to the land come harvesting time.

I didn't bother going any further, it was pointless.

Then we get a call from a land owner who said he had 60 rai for sale but we can talk about renting, so we made another 2 hour drive to get to his land only for him to see a farang getting out of a red lable car, and all of a sudden, the possibility of renting was out of the window and it was sale only, another waste of my time.

Ah well.... onwards and upwards so they say.

Edited November 3, 2012 by klubex99

[nev]

I don't know much about sugar cane, but I am told that one has to have a contract with the local sugar mill in order to sell the cane. This is unlike cassava, which one can plant and sell when ever one wants to sell, dependent on price. That is why one sees cassava every where in northeast Thailand but only see sugar cane in certain areas in close proximity to sugar mills. I suggest you check out the markets before deciding on planting sugar cane.

Spot on. was at the sugar cane factory registration on saturday up near chumpae, there was hundreds registering and just as many new registering as regulars,my girlfriend has been supplying there for 10years.

There is more than meets the eye sugar farming, has she has been teaching me, she gets the latest seeds, and gets around 20 tonnes per rai, you will not get much more than this believe me.

[klubex99]

I don't know much about sugar cane, but I am told that one has to have a contract with the local sugar mill in order to sell the cane. This is unlike cassava, which one can plant and sell when ever one wants to sell, dependent on price. That is why one sees cassava every where in northeast Thailand but only see sugar cane in certain areas in close proximity to sugar mills. I suggest you check out the markets before deciding on planting sugar cane.

Spot on. was at the sugar cane factory registration on saturday up near chumpae, there was hundreds registering and just as many new registering as regulars,my girlfriend has been supplying there for 10years.

There is more than meets the eye sugar farming, has she has been teaching me, she gets the latest seeds, and gets around 20 tonnes per rai, you will not get much more than this believe me.

Yes, I know all this. I keep attempting to get readers to understand why I am doing this. It is to emulate a scientific experiment.

See here. from The Nation March 2010

http://www.nationmul...s-30125211.html

This year they managed to break the 100 tonne barrier from 1 Rai.

I have a good friend who is a botanst in the UK who works for The marquess of Northamptom who will be coming to add some of his expet knowledge and my wife's mother is a supervisor at the local government office for agricultural water uses as well as being a major centre for crop watering research. As a matter of fact, we were out and about today with some of the workers from the research facility to see different land and take samples etc.

The research centre where MIL works has 5 rai of sugar planted as well as casava, rice and a few other things, all for government research.

I have no intention of getting 103 tonnes a rai, but I want to try combinations of the 6 step experiment that led to that success. If I can get 30 tonnes with Bt10K per tonne investment gives a much better return that the norm. Its all a matter of ecconomics.

I agree, most people will never get more than 15 to 20 tonnes per rai, lots will get even less. But that is a matter of attitude and not one of inability.

Edited November 6, 2012 by klubex99

[nev]

I don't know much about sugar cane, but I am told that one has to have a contract with the local sugar mill in order to sell the cane. This is unlike cassava, which one can plant and sell when ever one wants to sell, dependent on price. That is why one sees cassava every where in northeast Thailand but only see sugar cane in certain areas in close proximity to sugar mills. I suggest you check out the markets before deciding on planting sugar cane.

Spot on. was at the sugar cane factory registration on saturday up near chumpae, there was hundreds registering and just as many new registering as regulars,my girlfriend has been supplying there for 10years.

There is more than meets the eye sugar farming, has she has been teaching me, she gets the latest seeds, and gets around 20 tonnes per rai, you will not get much more than this believe me.

Yes, I know all this. I keep attempting to get readers to understand why I am doing this. It is to emulate a scientific experiment.

See here. from The Nation March 2010

http://www.nationmul...s-30125211.html

This year they managed to break the 100 tonne barrier from 1 Rai.

I have a good friend who is a botanst in the UK who works for The marquess of Northamptom who will be coming to add some of his expet knowledge and my wife's mother is a supervisor at the local government office for agricultural water uses as well as being a major centre for crop watering research. As a matter of fact, we were out and about today with some of the workers from the research facility to see different land and take samples etc.

The research centre where MIL works has 5 rai of sugar planted as well as casava, rice and a few other things, all for government research.

I have no intention of getting 103 tonnes a rai, but I want to try combinations of the 6 step experiment that led to that success. If I can get 30 tonnes with Bt10K per tonne investment gives a much better return that the norm. Its all a matter of ecconomics.

I agree, most people will never get more than 15 to 20 tonnes per rai, lots will get even less. But that is a matter of attitude and not one of inability.

We have a contract with the sugar cane factory to supply 2000 tonnes, last year my tilac told me she got 32 and 38 tonne/rai on some, and this year a few of the farm's look very tightly packed and very high, so maybe on some we will get the 30 tonne/rai.

The 100 tonne/rai was achieved at the factory in controlled conditions and water supply, we would love to achieve 100 tonne/rai but alas soil here very dry, but we do get the latest seeds, and on saturday at the factory have been promised the latest seeds next year.

Good luck with your plans and please post updates on here.

[klubex99]

We have a contract with the sugar cane factory to supply 2000 tonnes, last year my tilac told me she got 32 and 38 tonne/rai on some, and this year a few of the farm's look very tightly packed and very high, so maybe on some we will get the 30 tonne/rai.

The 100 tonne/rai was achieved at the factory in controlled conditions and water supply, we would love to achieve 100 tonne/rai but alas soil here very dry, but we do get the latest seeds, and on saturday at the factory have been promised the latest seeds next year.

Good luck with your plans and please post updates on here.

Yes, it was totally controlled and expensive to get that tonnage. I will certainly post my step by step procedures on the experimental plots. The idea is to share the knowledge, not keep it to myself. Visiters are actually invited to tour the experimental facility and get a full action pack on how to do it. I will find time to go down there, I have already read a lot about the project they did, but nice to go and see them doing it.

32 and 38 tonnes/rai is a great yield, are you in Nakhon Sawan? I here 30 t/r around there is the norm without any effort, my wife says that if you don't get at least 30 t/r there, other will laugh at you.

I think we are getting closer to getting the land we need, and water is of the utmost importance to us. I doubt I will even try if we don't have plenty of H2O for the entire dry season, water is key to weight. I have a bit of a design formed in my mind of a portable irrigation system that can be deployed, retracted and re-deployed..... and no, it isn't a fire engine.

Edited November 6, 2012 by klubex99

[oldestswinger]

Last year we heard of 15 rai available for rent. We were interested in it for sugar cane and enquired about the price. 150,000 baht for 3 years, ie. 3,333 baht per rai p.a. This is in Korat.

[nev]

Last year we heard of 15 rai available for rent. We were interested in it for sugar cane and enquired about the price. 150,000 baht for 3 years, ie. 3,333 baht per rai p.a. This is in Korat.

We have some we are renting, 38rai for 14,000 baht a year, and 28 rai at 10,000 baht a year,those rents keep well away.

Is it a returnable rent?they give you the 150,000 back on return of the land.

Ones we have are just a yearly fee.

[nev]

We have a contract with the sugar cane factory to supply 2000 tonnes, last year my tilac told me she got 32 and 38 tonne/rai on some, and this year a few of the farm's look very tightly packed and very high, so maybe on some we will get the 30 tonne/rai.

The 100 tonne/rai was achieved at the factory in controlled conditions and water supply, we would love to achieve 100 tonne/rai but alas soil here very dry, but we do get the latest seeds, and on saturday at the factory have been promised the latest seeds next year.

Good luck with your plans and please post updates on here.

Yes, it was totally controlled and expensive to get that tonnage. I will certainly post my step by step procedures on the experimental plots. The idea is to share the knowledge, not keep it to myself. Visiters are actually invited to tour the experimental facility and get a full action pack on how to do it. I will find time to go down there, I have already read a lot about the project they did, but nice to go and see them doing it.

32 and 38 tonnes/rai is a great yield, are you in Nakhon Sawan? I here 30 t/r around there is the norm without any effort, my wife says that if you don't get at least 30 t/r there, other will laugh at you.

I think we are getting closer to getting the land we need, and water is of the utmost importance to us. I doubt I will even try if we don't have plenty of H2O for the entire dry season, water is key to weight. I have a bit of a design formed in my mind of a portable irrigation system that can be deployed, retracted and re-deployed..... and no, it isn't a fire engine.

We are in khon kaen, the soil is very dry here so 20,000 baht a tonne is a good yield, last year on a 68 rai plot the cane has packed in more, reducing the gap between the cane, and they are very high and look a very good crop.

[klubex99]

Last year we heard of 15 rai available for rent. We were interested in it for sugar cane and enquired about the price. 150,000 baht for 3 years, ie. 3,333 baht per rai p.a. This is in Korat.

We have some we are renting, 38rai for 14,000 baht a year, and 28 rai at 10,000 baht a year,those rents keep well away.

Is it a returnable rent?they give you the 150,000 back on return of the land.

Ones we have are just a yearly fee.

Yesterday we went over to Pak Thong Chai only 45 minutes drive from my home where 47 rai was up for rent, they quoted us Bt500/rai per year, when we got there it had been sanded over in preparation for building. even grass wasn't able to grow there.

May have had their application to build rejected or something, or maybe they simply can't get the cash to build.

Had a rai of pond full of water though which was bang on the land, not sure the depth. The place might do ok with pineapple though.

[IsaanAussie]

This has been exciting, so what's happening? Found another plot yet or what?

[klubex99]

This has been exciting, so what's happening? Found another plot yet or what?

Nope, drew nothing but blanks, but I have put some word around that I am happy to pay a 'spotters fee' to anyone who can find exactly what I want. Save me a lot of driving about and fuel costs etc...

I need to knuckle down on the administrative side of my projects this week having given them scant attention over the past 10 days or so. If I don't catch up by the end of the week, by next week it will be like trying to juggle buckets of water.

But I can only really devote so much time to this before I have to face reality of either buying the land or moving on to other things.

My MIL keeps asking the wife why I am going into farming, even though I have explained so many times. But Thais find it hard to grasp why a farang who can earn a lot of money doing other things, wants to retard thenselves into what the poor people of Thailand have to do, and mostly not out of choice. Like I am choosing LoSo over HiSo.

But there are many complex reasons, and I don't really expect her to understand. Thais don't normally think big, and that sometimes creates a barrier of understanding.

[IsaanAussie]

I suppose that is why God invented Real Estate Agents and Dorothy wore Ruby Slippers.

The lack of education here is evident in the way they talk, all posed in the form of negative questions. No logic or deductive reasoning. I find it very wearing constantly being asked "why didnt..." in the past tense. No one volunteers a positive suggestion or a warning in advance. But everyone knows what you did wrong or should have done after the event. Very much a "not invented here" society. I have never heard someone ask, that has never been tried here before, how will it work? If you are lucky enough to get something to work then everyone wants in.

If this planting scheme is that good, stick with it. Good luck, the right piece of land will become available sooner or later.

Edited November 13, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[Canada]

Hi. In our area the only land that you can find to rent now is uncleared. You can clear it and get only 2 years for that. You keep the wood

If you can find rentable goos land, the price has gone from 1000 baht per rai per year to 2000 baht and they'll only give you 3 years, meaning they take the 4th or more if the crop is good.

As far as establishing a quota contract with the local sugar mill.... slow down there big rig..... growing sugar and selling sugar are two different businesses. I have bee researching the latter for a couple of years now and I am still not confident that it is possible for a foreigner to do it. All things are possible, yes.... but try managing some Thai workers first. I pretty much guarantee you that you will run them off and you will end up with your wife managing the people that will still work for you. Selling sugar will involve a bunch of Thai workers. The local sugarbrokers that I know all complain the same thing...workers are unreliable. They even give them money in advance to "reserve" them and then a good percentage don't show when it is time to cut sugar. You will need reliable cutters, and some trucks and drivers to get your crop to the mill. Then you will sit in line for a very long time, unless you have a very large quota...500-600 tons is not it.

I would get your land if you can, get your sugar in, learn about it and thais. Then move on to bigger things if you feel you can. There is money to be made buying and selling sugar, but from what I can see, it is a fast business that requires relationships with many local thai people/farmers as well as your workers. Best bet to start is to sell to a sugar broker. Even though they take more than their fair share as far as I am concerned.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[soidog2]

Hi. In our area the only land that you can find to rent now is uncleared. You can clear it and get only 2 years for that. You keep the wood

If you can find rentable goos land, the price has gone from 1000 baht per rai per year to 2000 baht and they'll only give you 3 years, meaning they take the 4th or more if the crop is good.

As far as establishing a quota contract with the local sugar mill.... slow down there big rig..... growing sugar and selling sugar are two different businesses. I have bee researching the latter for a couple of years now and I am still not confident that it is possible for a foreigner to do it. All things are possible, yes.... but try managing some Thai workers first. I pretty much guarantee you that you will run them off and you will end up with your wife managing the people that will still work for you. Selling sugar will involve a bunch of Thai workers. The local sugarbrokers that I know all complain the same thing...workers are unreliable. They even give them money in advance to "reserve" them and then a good percentage don't show when it is time to cut sugar. You will need reliable cutters, and some trucks and drivers to get your crop to the mill. Then you will sit in line for a very long time, unless you have a very large quota...500-600 tons is not it.

I would get your land if you can, get your sugar in, learn about it and thais. Then move on to bigger things if you feel you can. There is money to be made buying and selling sugar, but from what I can see, it is a fast business that requires relationships with many local thai people/farmers as well as your workers. Best bet to start is to sell to a sugar broker. Even though they take more than their fair share as far as I am concerned.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

.

Right On !!, we grow it, sell it to people with mill quotes, infinitely less headaches, everybody makes money.

[Canada]

Soidog...are you being sarcastic??

It is a workable situation, and tough to find a way around it. The selling of your own sugar is not an easy task. Selling to the brokers gives away a lot of money that should be in the farmers pocket. We are just learning the sugarcane end of it. We have had other people do our other two fields the last two years and this year bought more land, a tractor and moved here to do it ourself. We hope to break into to sugarbrokering in the next 2 years or so after we establish ourselves in the area. We are in wifeys home area so she know's a lot of people in the area already in the business.

Anyways, for now, the sugarbrokers are getting a good share of our crop. We start cutting on the 22nd they say...hahahahaha.... wait and see.

[soidog2]

Not at all, sorry if it came through that way.

[Scoop1]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

[soidog2]

In my parts of the Buriram world it is unlikely to happen.

If the land is good; price is attractive, it would make much more sense to take it all; subdivide and rent small parcels at a profit.

You will not have many problems getting up to 1500 B per rai for fertile land.

Long term leases, you better consult a lawyer if you plan to make any serious improvements; other wise why would you want such a long term lease ?

Climate changes, crops go out of fashion, people get old and so on.......

[Livinginexile]

I have 15 rai in Kanchanaburi if anyone's intrested. Prime suger cane land connected to the river Kwai Noi.

Neihbours are always hassling us but they will not pay the rent up front, they want to pay at harvest time. Wife says no way because they will never pay so the land sits vacant. PM me if interested.

[Scoop1]

In my parts of the Buriram world it is unlikely to happen.

If the land is good; price is attractive, it would make much more sense to take it all; subdivide and rent small parcels at a profit.

You will not have many problems getting up to 1500 B per rai for fertile land.

Long term leases, you better consult a lawyer if you plan to make any serious improvements; other wise why would you want such a long term lease ?

Climate changes, crops go out of fashion, people get old and so on.......

i have cosulted a law firm, its more about being able to live in Thailand and have enough room to grow some vegetables, i am wondering about a house and a little bit of land, long term, i wont be growing anything in soil, so i wont need a lot of land

Thank you

cheers

scoop

Edited November 15, 2012 by Scoop1

[soidog2]

Most people in that situation buy a piece of land in a Thai person's name ( wife, etc.) and improve on it.

I would not recommend renting land to live on, unless you are here short term.

Good luck.

[Canada]

Most people in that situation buy a piece of land in a Thai person's name ( wife, etc.) and improve on it.

I would not recommend renting land to live on, unless you are here short term.

Good luck.

Thai landlords are terrible. Tenants don't really have any rights here.

[Canada]

hi all,i was wondering if anyone has had expierience with leasing land long term, say a 30yr lease, does this happen at all, and when you see ie 50rai for 10,000bt/year , is it possible to lease less than the 50 rai or is that not done

Thanks in advance

It does happen, but usually in conjunction with a land purchase. i.e.. your thai gf/wife puts the property in her name and you secure it by registering a long term lease or what they call " seet gep gin" which gives you the right to do whatever you want on the property. You can register this right for a term of 30 years, or for the rest of your life here, which is what I have done on our land. It'll cost you about 100 baht to have this recorded on the back of the title deed at the land registry office or thousands or baht if you get a lawyer to do it for you. Really. I had a lawyer do my first one and did the rest of them myself.