Atm - No Not The Atm As A Foreigner Giving Cash Away.

[theDukes]

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here. Any private service ATM machines out there? Maybe a good business for someone.

[eyecatcher]

What a great idea; I too have the visa credit machine and dont pass the charge on to the customer; its surprising how 20bt or so is charged per 1000bt, plus when you get the phone bill there is another charge for each and evey transaction via the phone line.

I always thought it a bit petty and wondered why many business charge 2% surcharge for credit cards....I make a minumum charge now of 1000bt to use credit card, otherwise cash only.

[Mapguy]

Won't the banks go along with this if you have adequate volume in the area? Unfortunately, your stores are not all so close to high density areas.

I don't know how banks make money on ATM machines except to save labor (that is, staff costs), but they make a sizable profit from merchants on credit cards so, in some ways, they might indeed be a little reticent to absorb the costs of a machine that is not in high traffic areas.

There are some exceptions! Anyone know of one?!

Edited November 2, 2012 by Mapguy

[hellodolly]

Well most ATMs charge 150 baht if the card is from a different bank.

I would have no problem if it was a bank of Siam machine but others would want 150 baht.

I would rather pay a 3% surcharge on a 1,000 baht bill that would only be 30 baht.

[Tywais]

Well most ATMs charge 150 baht if the card is from a different bank.

I would have no problem if it was a bank of Siam machine but others would want 150 baht.

I would rather pay a 3% surcharge on a 1,000 baht bill that would only be 30 baht.

Just a correction. The 150 Baht is for overseas (non-Thai) cards. Very small fee for Thai interbank use.

The Thai Bankers’ Association have recently introduced ATM cash withdrawal fees for credit and debit cards registered outside of Thailand.

Thaizer

[NancyL]

Have a Thai speaking person with reasonable business-sense call the banks. We have one of those mobile money vans confirmed for the JJ Market Christmas Charity Fair on November 24. Us English-speakers weren't making any progress until we got a Thai person with business-sense involved.

They wanted to know things like power supply, how much money per day, security, etc. All reasonable concerns if you're asking someone to park a van full of money someplace, I imagine they'd ask the same questions about someone wanting an ATM machine installed in their business.

Incidentally, the van is from Krueng Thai. Just giving them a plug.

Edited November 2, 2012 by NancyL

[ALFREDO]

Well most ATMs charge 150 baht if the card is from a different bank.

I would have no problem if it was a bank of Siam machine but others would want 150 baht.

I would rather pay a 3% surcharge on a 1,000 baht bill that would only be 30 baht.

Just a correction. The 150 Baht is for overseas (non-Thai) cards. Very small fee for Thai interbank use.

The Thai Bankers’ Association have recently introduced ATM cash withdrawal fees for credit and debit cards registered outside of Thailand.

Thaizer

20 Baht fee in Thailand for Thai cards transactions. Out or In your account.

Take money out of ATM, I think except the ATM at your exactly Bank branch where you have your account.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

Correction: It's NOT common for restaurants.

It's common in a couple very competitive areas, either as a 2-3% extra charge for credit card use, or, more common these days, the willingness to discount by that amount when paying in cash. (And sometimes an even bigger discount, as it allows the shop to manage the books a bit more creatively.)

BTW I would expect a fancy-ish restaurant to allow paying by credit card, especially one in a tourist area. And it would very much be a reason not to visit a particular place if it had to be cash. (Speaking for myself only) An ATM is really not a substitute, ATMs are all over Chiang Mai anyway. The point is that it's not cash out of one's pocket right away but only due a month or so later, allowing the spreading of expenses over a longer period.

I'd much rather you just add 2% on top of the 7% VAT that somehow doesn't make it in the individual prices in the menu.

Or better yet, if you want for example 235 baht for a dish including VAT and potential credit card use, just put a 2 a 3 and a 5 in the menu. It's not that hard. No wait, it's easier.

Edited November 2, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Awk]

Unfortunately exchanging the acceptance of credit card for an ATM might also exchange credit card paying customers for non-customers.

Many banks carry a hefty fee for credit card cash advance from an ATM (e.g., one of mine carries a fee of something close to 300B + a percentage of amount), while there is usually only a very small fee or no fee for purchases done with the credit card. Add to that the 150B fee levied by all Thai banks for doing an ATM cash withdrawl with a non-Thai issued credit card.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Awk

[elektrified]

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

Correction: It's NOT common for restaurants.

It's common in a couple very competitive areas, either as a 2-3% extra charge for credit card use, or, more common these days, the willingness to discount by that amount when paying in cash. (And sometimes an even bigger discount, as it allows the shop to manage the books a bit more creatively.)

BTW I would expect a fancy-ish restaurant to allow paying by credit card, especially one in a tourist area. And it would very much be a reason not to visit a particular place if it had to be cash. (Speaking for myself only) An ATM is really not a substitute, ATMs are all over Chiang Mai anyway. The point is that it's not cash out of one's pocket right away but only due a month or so later, allowing the spreading of expenses over a longer period.

I'd much rather you just add 2% on top of the 7% VAT that somehow doesn't make it in the individual prices in the menu.

Or better yet, if you want for example 235 baht for a dish including VAT and potential credit card use, just put a 2 a 3 and a 5 in the menu. It's not that hard. No wait, it's easier.

Agreed.

Hi Dave, Please DO NOT discontinue taking credit cards. I am a frequent customer at your restaurant and often pay by credit card; American Express or other. Not always but I like having the option. Sometimes things are tight and I need to pay by credit card and pay in 30 days. I'm sure many people feel the same as me and Winnie. I think for upscale places like yours, you have to accept credit cards or it could hurt business. I know when I am visiting other countries I prefer to go out to restaurants that accept credit cards rather than carry much cash around in an unknown country/city or visit an ATM at night.

[wimpy]

Actually, there is no longer a charge for using a Thai ATM card from one bank in another banks ATM machine. This has been eliminated - as long as you are not from another province.

[hml367]

Actually, there is no longer a charge for using a Thai ATM card from one bank in another banks ATM machine. This has been eliminated - as long as you are not from another province.

I have found this to be correct in my case also, Wimpy. I even got away with it in Chiang Rai with a Chiang Mai bank account.

MSPain

[NeverSure]

Since the late 60's businesses all over the world have been happy to accept credit cards because it increases business. Not counting AMEX which was then for those with higher means, BankAmericaCard which became Visa was the working man's card.

Without going off topic and talking about the middle class debt it created, it did allow people to spend before payday, or when they were a little short. They would also spend more on impulse.

It's been proven over and over that businesses, when finally accepting credit cards, see not only an increase in unique customer sales, but an increase in the average customer purchase amount. There is a reason why almost every notable business world wide accepts those cards even with the expense.

Before you decide to charge extra for those using a credit card, I'd read my merchant agreement. Every one I've seen makes it a violation to do so, and a business can find itself without having credit card service at all. It is of course OK to add a little to the menu price if the market will bear it.

$.02

[jackr]

Op, reckon it's a plus to have an ATM machine at your gaff(s), but removing the CC option might do you a disservice and make it appear a bit of a tacky outfit.

[pgthompson]

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

Correction: It's NOT common for restaurants.

It's common in a couple very competitive areas, either as a 2-3% extra charge for credit card use, or, more common these days, the willingness to discount by that amount when paying in cash. (And sometimes an even bigger discount, as it allows the shop to manage the books a bit more creatively.)

BTW I would expect a fancy-ish restaurant to allow paying by credit card, especially one in a tourist area. And it would very much be a reason not to visit a particular place if it had to be cash. (Speaking for myself only) An ATM is really not a substitute, ATMs are all over Chiang Mai anyway. The point is that it's not cash out of one's pocket right away but only due a month or so later, allowing the spreading of expenses over a longer period.

I'd much rather you just add 2% on top of the 7% VAT that somehow doesn't make it in the individual prices in the menu.

Or better yet, if you want for example 235 baht for a dish including VAT and potential credit card use, just put a 2 a 3 and a 5 in the menu. It's not that hard. No wait, it's easier.

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

Correction: It's NOT common for restaurants.

It's common in a couple very competitive areas, either as a 2-3% extra charge for credit card use, or, more common these days, the willingness to discount by that amount when paying in cash. (And sometimes an even bigger discount, as it allows the shop to manage the books a bit more creatively.)

BTW I would expect a fancy-ish restaurant to allow paying by credit card, especially one in a tourist area. And it would very much be a reason not to visit a particular place if it had to be cash. (Speaking for myself only) An ATM is really not a substitute, ATMs are all over Chiang Mai anyway. The point is that it's not cash out of one's pocket right away but only due a month or so later, allowing the spreading of expenses over a longer period.

I'd much rather you just add 2% on top of the 7% VAT that somehow doesn't make it in the individual prices in the menu.

Or better yet, if you want for example 235 baht for a dish including VAT and potential credit card use, just put a 2 a 3 and a 5 in the menu. It's not that hard. No wait, it's easier.

I agree, things that put me off, stop be going in, to a restaurant are -

% Service charge will be added to the final bill.

% Charge for using credit card.

V.A.T added to the bill.

Why can't business's be up front and honest and advertise the final price?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I agree, things that put me off, stop be going in, to a restaurant are -

% Service charge will be added to the final bill.

% Charge for using credit card.

V.A.T added to the bill.

Why can't business's be up front and honest and advertise the final price?

In fairness, they mostly are in that they mention it or have it stated on the menu. But I do very much agree that I would like to see a single price on a menu, and not any kind of percent-game.

[jagi00]

#15 & #16 says it all for me!

[Payboy]

At least those Visa, MasterCard stickers at various establishments let me know which way to open the door.

[barefoot1988]

raise the prices, then 2% discount when paying in cash

[trainman34014]

I think that more places should be accepting cards by now, not less. How far behind do Thailand's business people want to be? What will happen after 2015 when ,we hope, more people will arrive from the likes of Seoul, Singapore, KL and so on ,where much larger numbers of folks are using cards on a daily basis. Will they be happy when they can't use their cards for purchases as they can elsewhere in the civilised world?

Not long after I got here I went into a Builders merchants to buy numerous items. When I got to the till I was told that certain items had a surcharge for using a card and certain items didn't. What kind of business thinking is this? I have since found that Global do the same thing, as well as others. IMO it's all backward or non-progressive thinking in todays world. I would have thought by now that Restaurant owners would have solved this problem by adding a little more to menu prices. After all; it wouldn't have to be a hefty rise on each menu item and would in the bigger picture be unoticed by most customers.

If you lads go the ATM route you will lose my custom...unless you can talk AEON into installing at your premises. Don't do it; I think your heads have been in Thailand for too long !

[chiang mai]

Since the late 60's businesses all over the world have been happy to accept credit cards because it increases business. Not counting AMEX which was then for those with higher means, BankAmericaCard which became Visa was the working man's card.

Without going off topic and talking about the middle class debt it created, it did allow people to spend before payday, or when they were a little short. They would also spend more on impulse.

It's been proven over and over that businesses, when finally accepting credit cards, see not only an increase in unique customer sales, but an increase in the average customer purchase amount. There is a reason why almost every notable business world wide accepts those cards even with the expense.

Before you decide to charge extra for those using a credit card, I'd read my merchant agreement. Every one I've seen makes it a violation to do so, and a business can find itself without having credit card service at all. It is of course OK to add a little to the menu price if the market will bear it.

$.02

Agreed, Visa rules state that merchants must not charge customers for using their cards, Visa will refund any such charge if the customer obtains an invoice specific to that charge alone - clearly no merchant is ever going to provide such an invoice since they'll be bollocked/charged by Visa.

[NancyL]

Back when Hubby and I owned a greenhouse/nursery business, I did a little study on customer spending patterns and found the average sale per customer was substantially higher with credit card purchases than with cash or debit cards.

One of our friends had a big retail greenhouse and farm produce stand that was well known for good quality and cheap prices. People would drive for miles to visit his place once a year to buy their bedding plants or vegetables for canning. He had to hire off-duty policemen to direct traffic around his business during the peak season. He was well-known as cash-only. Finally, he started to accept credit cards and he said his sales went up 30% the year he did that and stayed up in at the level in future years.

Also, finally, someone put together a small website for him, with obvious info like map, operating hours, and a number you could call to hear a recording of what products were "in season". Those two little enhancements also increased his business by 30%.

So, I'd agree with everyone who is cautioning Dave not to discontinue credit cards.

Edited November 3, 2012 by NancyL

[Chicog]

Are you confusing "Credit" cards with "Debit" cards, which are usually just a payment card that deducts straight from your bank account.

And are the charges the same? I have a Siam Commercial Debit card, if I use it in your restaurant, what % would you lose compared to be using an overseas Credit or Debit card?

I think we should be told.

[Beetlejuice]

Good idea, but not possible and here is why:

All ATM machines pertain to the banks that own the cards, meaning that each card, machine transaction, has to be go via the bank’s computer system, which includes the customer’s private bank or card accounts. All ATM machines must be registered with the businesses that acquire them and the business owners vetted, so as the banks can keep tabs on who by and where they’re services are being used, because it`s the bank’s money and they hold the overall responsibility for their customers money and the cash contained within the machines. For example, the banks would be reluctant to let a Mr Iwill Ripemoff ex owner of the Acme money laundry service company have control of one of their ATM machines. This is why the banks charge fees and rentals for the privilege and convenience of having an ATM machine on the business premises or for use of the businesses clientele. Also the security of a premises maybe taken into account, as it`s the customers and bank’s money that is involved here.

If your talking about installing a private ATM type machine, this is not possible as the banks would never agree to it as all ATMs must be registered and business owners must have cleared authorisation from the banks to use their systems, plus I believe it`s not legal to have an unregistered ATM machine on the premises.

Another point worth considering is having ATMs on your premises loaded with cash is a hell of a security concern for obvious reasons.

Sorry to say; but there is no way of beating the banks and in this case for security reasons I completely agree with their policies.

I guess you have already made enquiries with the banks and you concluded that going the ATM machine route was not a viable proposition?

[chiang mai]

There are large numbers of private ATM operators in the UK and also presumably in other countries.

[Dante99]

not a great idea Mr. theDukes, not even a good one

[scottishjohn]

I'm looking for someone to install an ATM machine in my 3 restaurants here in Chiang Mai. I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

Correction: It's NOT common for restaurants.

It's common in a couple very competitive areas, either as a 2-3% extra charge for credit card use, or, more common these days, the willingness to discount by that amount when paying in cash. (And sometimes an even bigger discount, as it allows the shop to manage the books a bit more creatively.)

BTW I would expect a fancy-ish restaurant to allow paying by credit card, especially one in a tourist area. And it would very much be a reason not to visit a particular place if it had to be cash. (Speaking for myself only) An ATM is really not a substitute, ATMs are all over Chiang Mai anyway. The point is that it's not cash out of one's pocket right away but only due a month or so later, allowing the spreading of expenses over a longer period.

I'd much rather you just add 2% on top of the 7% VAT that somehow doesn't make it in the individual prices in the menu.

Or better yet, if you want for example 235 baht for a dish including VAT and potential credit card use, just put a 2 a 3 and a 5 in the menu. It's not that hard. No wait, it's easier.

Agreed.

Hi Dave, Please DO NOT discontinue taking credit cards. I am a frequent customer at your restaurant and often pay by credit card; American Express or other. Not always but I like having the option. Sometimes things are tight and I need to pay by credit card and pay in 30 days. I'm sure many people feel the same as me and Winnie. I think for upscale places like yours, you have to accept credit cards or it could hurt business. I know when I am visiting other countries I prefer to go out to restaurants that accept credit cards rather than carry much cash around in an unknown country/city or visit an ATM at night.

Also please remember that most business people need the credit card receit for expenses, visitors DON'T want to be carrying cash/use the ATM so would also want to use the credit card option as of course do those who want to spread the holiday expenses over a few months, as I do. I would recommend you continue to use the credit card option.

If your intention on this post was to get public opinion on your propossed plan then I think you have received it! KEEP THE CARD. If you want a nearby ATM go ahead

[hellodolly]

Pretty much looks unanimous. Keep accepting credit cards.

Good for business.

[mesquite]

I don't know what the ATM costs are, but I like the OP's idea. Credit cards take too long to process and then there is the delay if the first one is not accepted electronically.

A major ATM from Bangkok Bank or Siam Commercial Bank would be a big plus and might well draw in business. I would much rather pull out 10-20k THB from an ATM located safely inside a restaurant and might well have lunch or dinner while I'm there.

Foreign credit cards generally have bad exchange rates and extra fees. I disagree that visitors to CM want to use credit cards instead of cash.

The only downside I see is if the overall ATM costs are just too high.

Edited November 3, 2012 by mesquite

[NeverSure]

raise the prices, then 2% discount when paying in cash

Unfortunately, violation of merchant agreement. There must be no difference in price if using CC. Again, the merchant's ability to pay the small fee must be in the menu price and a business expense. When done that way the merchant wins because sales will be more.

Also a merchant can look like a cheapskate if dabbling around with 2% or whatever, as if his time isn't worth anything. I know 2% really adds up when taken from the net profit, and is a lot more than 2% of profit. The merchant must just build it into the total price, so the customer never notices it. 2% of gross isn't much to the customer, but 2% of net is a lot to the merchant.

Edited November 3, 2012 by NeverSure