Farang Political Leanings

[yourauntbob]

So I have noticed something in the last few months of reading the TV boards and talking with friends/co-workers that I find strange. Please correct me if I am wrong on the perception that most Obama supporters dispise Thaksin, and many republicans on the board seem to defend Thaksin (myself included). This seems counter intuitive because both Thaksin and Obama are self proclaimed populist.

I dont like Thaksin per say but feel he was ousted undemocratically and therefore defend him to a point (although I dont really like his policies). Please dont attack this second paragraph, its just an example of the above statement.

Thoughts?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I don't think one has much to do with the other, more likely from the perceptions picked up by the kind of Thais we associate with than any rational thought-out ideology.

They're all a bunch of lying scam artists. . .

[yourauntbob]

I don't think one has much to do with the other, more likely from the perceptions picked up by the kind of Thais we associate with than any rational thought-out ideology.

They're all a bunch of lying scam artists. . .

Good point, maybe politics is more nurture than nature.

[kennedy]

Just my opinion

Politics are best kept in the country that you are from.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

On that topic, I'd really like to hear from anyone here who has strong opinions about Thai politics, where those opinions are not shared by the Thais they're closest to.

[DP25]

This seems counter intuitive because both Thaksin and Obama are self proclaimed populist.

SELF PROCLAIMED. Thaksin's real interest is in hand outs to the rich, most of all himself. Republicans love Thaksin for his corporate tax cuts, his position on free trade and removing Thailand's protectionist trade barriers, and not doing anything to reign in massive tax fraud and tax evasion (he does this for himself but it benefits many). The situation in Thailand where hardly anyone has to pay taxes and everyone dodges them is basically a Republican wet dream, a bizarre capitalist distopia where the rich can get away with anything. Some Republicans also love his 'drug war' in which thousands of people were murdered without trial and wish we could do the same in the US.

The Thai democrats are also a left leaning party when it comes to social issues and seek to implement a European style social safety net, are not as keen on free trade, and Abhisit at least tried but failed to pass a land a tax which would have finally hit some of the wealthy that do not pay, so policy wise they are still appealing to those who would also support Obama.

[15Peter20]

I see it the other way around. Republicans in the US and Democrats in Thailand both represent the old establishment in their respective countries.

Obama and Thaksin both represent a threat to the old-guard establishment.

I'd say it is US Democrat supporters who would be more sympathetic to PTP and the GOP supporters would prefer the Thai Dems.

That's if we're considering what the parties represent. If we're just talking personalities, I'd imagine Thaksin's self made fortune would be more respected in GOP circles.

[yourauntbob]

Just my opinion

Politics are best kept in the country that you are from.

i am not trying to cause a stir, i am just trying to understand the logic. some of the above posts make sense even if i dont completly agree.

[Zatoichi]

I support President Obama, always have, and I'm a registered Democrat. I'm also a resident of Bangkok, I was here when Taksin's terrorist red shirts swarmed my city looting, and burning everything they could, all the while killing soldiers and civilians alike. I hate Taksin because he's not a true populist leader. He's some rich criminal that paid a bunch of angry backwards peasants a few bhat to do his bidding. If the poor people, he claims to represent, really wanted change then a leader would have emerged from them organically. Like Martin Luther King jr. in America during the civil rights movement. One OF the people who was being oppressed, who marched with his people side by side, and who's voice crystallized the demand for equality that we were all feeling at that time.

Unlike Taksin who's just a scumbag, cowardly, thug, promoting terrorism from afar, while claiming to be about the people. F him, I hope he dies screaming.

[maxme]

Just an opinion, I hear a lot trash-talking about one person yet these people cannot substansiate critical evidence against the one person they hate.

I wonder if some foreigners here are not more or less "persuaded" by their spouses instead of making an objective inquiry into the claims.

[Trembly]

Which one do you like? Go on, pick one. You live in a democracy. You are free to choose . . .

[DocN]

I was always on the left wing of the spectrum.

Therefore the IDEAS of the Reds, appeal to me...IF they were only halfway serious about it.

The problem with politics in Thailand is

a) there is no left/right, as we traditionally have it in the west!

b ) politics (macro and micro) here is steered so much by a thinking of hirarchy, taht is almost impossible, to measure it, the way we are used to.

and c) as said before: no politicians is in it for the greater good, they are all only stuffing their pockets.

d) can not be discussed, but as long as exactly that is the case, politics is a farce anyways!

[JurgenG]

One similarity I found between Thaksin and the Republicans is the alliance between big money and rural states.

On the other hand, the democrats (the party) in both countries are supported by civil servants, teacher unions and universities.

The difference, and a big one, is that Gore and his supporters never asked for a coup when he was defeated in a very suspicious manner by George Bush. I think that's where the similarity ends between the American Democrats and the Thai "democrats".

[h90]

I was always on the left wing of the spectrum.

Therefore the IDEAS of the Reds, appeal to me...IF they were only halfway serious about it.

The problem with politics in Thailand is

a) there is no left/right, as we traditionally have it in the west!

b ) politics (macro and micro) here is steered so much by a thinking of hirarchy, taht is almost impossible, to measure it, the way we are used to.

and c) as said before: no politicians is in it for the greater good, they are all only stuffing their pockets.

d) can not be discussed, but as long as exactly that is the case, politics is a farce anyways!

While I agree I want to add:

a) in the west the left/right is in many countries disappearing, the big left and right parties are just opportunists now without much of ideology....not yet as bad as in Thailand but heading in that direction.

c) in the west it isn't that obvious but also heading in the same direction.

I think a honest educated leader is more important than the ideology. In Europe now most politicians at max just studied law or economics, but never worked in the real world. No technicians, university profs, business owner (except Germany). I would describe myself as right wing libertarian who really likes some socialist ideas as well. What works, works no matter from what ideology it comes and right or left, if they think the problems thru will often come to similar results. (if smart enough and not corrupt)

[h90]

One similarity I found between Thaksin and the Republicans is the alliance between big money and rural states.

On the other hand, the democrats (the party) in both countries are supported by civil servants, teacher unions and universities.

The difference, and a big one, is that Gore and his supporters never asked for a coup when he was defeated in a very suspicious manner by George Bush. I think that's where the similarity ends between the American Democrats and the Thai "democrats".

Well Bush didn't walk thru the slums and gave everyone 20 USD if he promise to vote for him. As well the PAD isn't exactly Democrat supporter, remember the "No Vote" motion last elections that cost the Democrats a lot.

I think it can't be compared at all, it is now just coincident that they have the same name. If they would call themself Social, people would compare them with the Socialists in Germany, or if they would call themself Freedom party some would compare them with the right wings in Austria.

I think just the name is similar.....

[SteeleJoe]

On that topic, I'd really like to hear from anyone here who has strong opinions about Thai politics, where those opinions are not shared by the Thais they're closest to.

Me.

I know more about Thai politics than a lot of Thais I know as I have somewhat more interest, and generally I have more knowledge than many of those close to me; to the degree that we have the same attitude, if there is an opinion not entirely independently developed, it is my influence on them than the other way around. Indeed I can say that I have not been influenced at all by Thais close to me or any that I know well or at all. (As opposed to scholars, pundits and other knowledgeable people I might have met or read/heard.)

As for the OP, it happens to hold true in my case:

I have respect for Thaksin's abilities but none for his character and I think he's a potentially very dangerous criminal who was ultimately bad for Thailand.

I have conditional respect for Obama's abilities but unhesitatingly voted for him (because I was rather certain I didn't want the other viable candidate). I genuinely believe that given the situation he took on, it is possible that his less than impressive 1st term is not entirely his fault and that he may still manage to do better (and maybe even his 1st term will look better in retrospect).

[SteeleJoe]

I was always on the left wing of the spectrum.

Therefore the IDEAS of the Reds, appeal to me...IF they were only halfway serious about it.

The problem with politics in Thailand is

a) there is no left/right, as we traditionally have it in the west!

b ) politics (macro and micro) here is steered so much by a thinking of hirarchy, taht is almost impossible, to measure it, the way we are used to.

and c) as said before: no politicians is in it for the greater good, they are all only stuffing their pockets.

d) can not be discussed, but as long as exactly that is the case, politics is a farce anyways!

The ideas of the Reds? Absolutely! I wish with all my heart that Thailand would be a place of social equality and justice.

There's zero chance of anyone in power now wanting that and anyone who gained power wouldn't want it either.

PS:

You post is spot on.

[Rancid]

This seems counter intuitive because both Thaksin and Obama are self proclaimed populist.

SELF PROCLAIMED. Thaksin's real interest is in hand outs to the rich, most of all himself. Republicans love Thaksin for his corporate tax cuts, his position on free trade and removing Thailand's protectionist trade barriers, and not doing anything to reign in massive tax fraud and tax evasion (he does this for himself but it benefits many). The situation in Thailand where hardly anyone has to pay taxes and everyone dodges them is basically a Republican wet dream, a bizarre capitalist distopia where the rich can get away with anything. Some Republicans also love his 'drug war' in which thousands of people were murdered without trial and wish we could do the same in the US.

The Thai democrats are also a left leaning party when it comes to social issues and seek to implement a European style social safety net, are not as keen on free trade, and Abhisit at least tried but failed to pass a land a tax which would have finally hit some of the wealthy that do not pay, so policy wise they are still appealing to those who would also support Obama.

Wake and smell the roses. All Thai parties are money leaning parties, neither left nor right. Republicans and Democrats are both pro-Wall St, war mongering parties, pure and simple. The only differentiation is gay marraige and abortion, matters of little interest except for those minorities affected (Onamacare socialist, please, insurance and Big Phatma are going to make a killing). Political opposites around the world are all narrowing in policies as they are all financed by the same oligarchs. Small investement for continuity of rape and pillage, in fact probably the best return on investment ever offerred.

[SteeleJoe]

I don't think one has much to do with the other, more likely from the perceptions picked up by the kind of Thais we associate with than any rational thought-out ideology.

They're all a bunch of lying scam artists. . .

As for the first: that is not true for me or several foreigners I know among the relatively few who have a genuine interest and have something to say about it. No doubt it applies to many, maybe the majority, but I think you be somewhat presumptuous in your posit.

As for the second: no doubt.

[KhaoNiaw]

On an individual level, Abhisit probably has far more belief in a parliamentary system of government than Thaksin.

For Thaksin, elections are simply the way to legitimize his right to do whatever he wants and he didn't really espouse any democratic ideals until after he was removed from power. During his time in government, he effectively gagged media criticism and set back the development of a free press which had started to take root from the early 1990s. In one particular incident, a small group of elderly anti-Thaksin protesters were attacked and beaten by thugs who were later filmed with the senior police officers directing crowd control (and whose men failed to intervene). A number of local environmental activists were murdered during campaigns against companies with (allegedly) connections to friends of Thaksin. The Tak Bai massacre occurred under Thaksin's watch. The positive effect he had on Thai politics was that he made social issues something that no parties and politicians can ignore.

Abhisit doesn't really fare much better. While I think he actually respects parliamentary democracy much more than Thaksin does, he doesn't respect it enough to refuse to take power on the back of coup. He had his own massacre of course. While the Democrats have generally tried to do more for education than Thaksin, there's not much else that's different. Abhisit doesn't lead a party that shares his or any other ideology.

There is no ideology in the mainstream Thai parties. It's difficult to make comparisons with western politics. For the development of the country and to better the lot of the ordinary Thai, you might feel that supporting the Redshirts is natural. But, as is becoming clear, this does not necessarily mean supporting the current government and its politicians. They've never actually given the grassroots any say in their party and even the Redshirts themselves are very much top-down in their organization.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I must I admit I have been amazed at the relatively high level of rationality displayed in this post, compared to elsewhere on the site regarding this topic.

Either the mods are doing an excellent job or y'all are showing commendable restraint.

I too would like to support any political movement that genuinely would result in a fairer shake for the countryside's poor, particularly wrt improving the education system

However I'm not optimistic about that prospect, nor the possibility of reducing endemic corruption.

So I'll just continue to keep out of it relax and enjoy.

[Trembly]

Electoral politics in the UK and America at least is like WWF / WEF in suits.

[geriatrickid]

I am accused of being a Thaksin apologist and sympathizer. by the frothers of TVF.

On the election threads one chap labeled me a closet commie for supporting President Obama.

I think your assumption doesn't hold with me and thousands of others.

I don't like Cameron, but admire Thatcher and liked Blair.

I liked Sarkozy but not the socialist wit that replaced him.

I also like the dour matron Dr. Merkel.

I like Scanadnavian Green party politics but dslike the socialist/labour types.

I respect the Thai navy and air force officers but despise Thai army senior officers.

[jocko]

I must I admit I have been amazed at the relatively high level of rationality displayed in this post, compared to elsewhere on the site regarding this topic.

Either the mods are doing an excellent job or y'all are showing commendable restraint.

I too would like to support any political movement that genuinely would result in a fairer shake for the countryside's poor, particularly wrt improving the education system

However I'm not optimistic about that prospect, nor the possibility of reducing endemic corruption.

So I'll just continue to keep out of it relax and enjoy.

What info can the Thai people learn about there government from the Thai media, not to much so most i have met just shrug there shoulders on the up's and down's of politics now if you want to talk about the King and the royal family they know everything or so they think.

On saying that none of us know what happens behind closed doors in our own government i am often shocked on reading books or articles about past events that have happened and how our government handled it . just look right now what is happening in the UK regarding Jimmy Savile and child abuse in so called care homes for children when members of the government seem to have been involved .

It's frightening and shocking