Why Do Men Expect Bar Girls To Love Them?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

My view is that it is more often the Gloria Steinem women's lib atheist types who are all over this one. Some of each, granted. Everyone has an agenda.

Yes, bizarre alignment of groups that would usually be at each other tooth and nail. First wave feminism and some of the more "neo" branches still can't get away from an anti-male POV in portraying women as victims.

However also remember that judeo-christian "values" are very much embedded into our cultural collective unconscious and still very much reflected in what even the most rational atheists consider "universal" or "objective" morality.

[spidermike007]

very few of these rules apply, if you are smart enough to seek out a middle class woman, with a college degree, who speaks great english, and has an established family. Many of these women can be found online. Interview them, and determine their status, before you even waste your time, or hook up. Otherwise, you need to plan to spend a minimum or one or two million baht on a house, retiring the family debt, supporting mom and dad, and the deadbeat brother, which a high percentage of Thai families have.

Most guys will not listed to this advice. Most will not hear it, nor want to hear it. But, buyer beware.

Most guys won't listen to your advice because it's crap advice (IMHO).

Internet dating attracts mostly far worse girls than the bars, you delusions are a variation on 'my girl is different'.

As for your rules

1. All women can wait 5-10-15 years before taking you, time means nothing.

2. Don't give her family money ever, it's your money, keep it for you.

3. No major gifts ever, buy everything in your own name, let them use the stuff.

4. They get no 'moving in' rights in Thailand, and you are only renting the place anyway.

5. Marriage in Thailand gets the woman no benefits, divorce is cheap, why not do it right away and get yourself a marriage extension.

6. Don't take her to your country ever, her rights are entirely different there.

7. Don't bother reading books written by losers.

There, I feel much better now!

Are you always so kind to strangers? LOL. My experience has been alot different from yours. Do you allow that possibility? Actually, I think some of your points are well taken. We all have our own approach, and mine is somewhere between what you advise, and my own experience, which has been positive. I have been with the same Thai gal for 7 years now, and she is delightful on a daily basis, and has my back 100%. But, I have avoided taking her to the states. However, I have helped her family start a business, and it was a success from day one. They have used that capital to improve their lives in every way, and they never ask for a penny now. So, there are some possible exceptions. My advice on the books was meant to help prevent many of the pitfalls. I have a friend who read a few of them, and when the exact thing happened to him he cracked up laughing, and teased the gal, and made fun of her "canned" approach, and did not lose one dollar in the deal.

[brewsterbudgen]

What really is love anyway? I love my sister and I love my parents. And, if I had, had children I would have loved them as well. I once loved my ex, but not after finding him in bed with a "former" girlfriend. However, those are/were all different types of love. Sexual attraction is another thing entirely and nobody ever seems to be the same. I see some creepy looking guys with some gorgeous gals and I have seen handsome guys with big, fat nasty wives. There doesn't seem to be any general rationale. I find certain types of men attractive, and their age doesn't seem to matter. I would imagine that some bar girls could find love with an older man if he was decent with her. It is just that the young pretty ones have so many customers that they are having too much fun to settle for just one guy. And, they think it is going to last forever.

A voice of reason and sanity.

[true blue]

cannot believe someone would critisize a group thats rescued over 100 children.

well done, what have you done lately.

he just spends endless hours on a biased farang web site,spouting verbal diarrear,and thinking in his mind he is uttering pearls of wisdom,but he is just boring.

[TommoPhysicist]

About the only people really qualified to discuss this topic are the old codgers in their 60s who have spent 20 years or more with the various bar girls.

..........

I'm in my mid-40s; been here 5 years; been to a gogo bar on two occasions - the 2nd time dragged kicking and screaming - despite living in Asoke less than 50 yards from the jewel in the P4P crown, Soi Cowboy.

I'm not and never will be the type who spends inordinate amounts of time around females of doubtful virtue but that doesn't mean I'm not qualified to discuss the topic.

..........

@HS

Sorry if I've confused you with someone else.

But didn't you previously post that you haven't had a girlfriend for 5 years.

I which case you have never had a gf in Thailand.

Which makes some of your posts and opinions a little odd.

PS. I agree that gogos aren't any fun at all too.

@rene

Thank god, finally a foreign woman in Thailand who appears to have a bit of common sense and understanding.

Edited November 19, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[TommoPhysicist]

i am sensative about bargirl issues, i know i piss people off a lot about it here.

I would say you amuse us, rather than annoy anyone.

PS. Much better avatar, this one makes you look much slimmer.

Edited November 19, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[chiangmaikelly]

About the only people really qualified to discuss this topic are the old codgers in their 60s who have spent 20 years or more with the various bar girls.

Sorry but that's drivel.

I'm in my mid-40s; been here 5 years; been to a gogo bar on two occasions - the 2nd time dragged kicking and screaming - despite living in Asoke less than 50 yards from the jewel in the P4P crown, Soi Cowboy.

I'm not and never will be the type who spends inordinate amounts of time around females of doubtful virtue but that doesn't mean I'm not qualified to discuss the topic.

I don't need to get pissed on Chang, play Connect 4, converse in "pidgin" English and bounce down the street hand-in-hand with a girl in skin-tight cutdowns, 20+ years my junior to know that any liaison beyond a few financially-motivated laps around the proverbial track will end in absolute disaster for me if I was dumb enough to believe that money wasn't her primary motivation.

Shit, you don't need to get shot to know it'll hurt, right?

I think in your case it may not be drivel. You wrote, “I'm in my mid-40s; been here 5 years; been to a gogo bar on two occasions - the 2nd time dragged kicking and screaming - despite living in Asoke less than 50 yards from the jewel in the P4P crown, Soi Cowboy.”

The above statement is a long way from being accurate. Soi Cowboy is not the jewel in the P4P crown. No way.

I think you may, in this case, have to be allegorically shot to know it hurts.

Looking at organizations that do good and are all over the world and have large memberships one would have to go a long way to get better and larger than AA. I believe AA has around 2 million members. If I wanted to know something about drunks I would go to AA. I am comparing drunks, the bad side of drinking with bar girls the bad side of monogamous relationships. If I wanted to find out about war I would go to someone who was in the military. If I wanted to find out about sex slaves I would go to a group like the Empower Foundation which is made up of women who were sex slaves.

If I was looking for information on Thai visas I would go to Thai Visa dot com. If I was looking for information about relationships with bar girls I would go the the reader submissions of a well known Thai oriented bar entertainment website.

Based on what you have shared about yourself I don't feel you have the expertise to accurately discuss the issue as well as others available to the forum.

[NeverSure]

Yes, bizarre alignment of groups that would usually be at each other tooth and nail. First wave feminism and some of the more "neo" branches still can't get away from an anti-male POV in portraying women as victims.

However also remember that judeo-christian "values" are very much embedded into our cultural collective unconscious and still very much reflected in what even the most rational atheists consider "universal" or "objective" morality.

Agree. I just can't get down on any one group as a whole because most countries including Russia and the former USSR and Thailand have some kind of religious beliefs or superstitions which affect them. Sometimes I think it contributes to a collective embodiment of culture. Good and bad everywhere...

There's just one religious group I can't abide and you know what that is. I consider bloody acts of terrorism against innocents or even your own kind immoral on any standard, but that's just me.

Oh well. As they say, everyone needs to believe in something, and I believe I'll have a beer.

[true blue]

cannot believe someone would critisize a group thats rescued over 100 children.

well done, what have you done lately.

he just spends endless hours on a biased farang web site,spouting verbal diarrear,and thinking in his mind he is uttering pearls of wisdom,but he is just boring.

glad u liked that bkk

cannot believe someone would critisize a group thats rescued over 100 children.

well done, what have you done lately.

he just spends endless hours on a biased farang web site,spouting verbal diarrear,and thinking in his mind he is uttering pearls of wisdom,but he is just boring.

glad u liked that post bg bkk,at least u admit to your own faults.

[TommoPhysicist]

There's just one religious group I can't abide and you know what that is. I consider bloody acts of terrorism against innocents or even your own kind immoral on any standard, but that's just me.

Catholics?

[giddyup]

There's just one religious group I can't abide and you know what that is. I consider bloody acts of terrorism against innocents or even your own kind immoral on any standard, but that's just me.

Catholics?

Not recently.

[NeverSure]

There's just one religious group I can't abide and you know what that is. I consider bloody acts of terrorism against innocents or even your own kind immoral on any standard, but that's just me.

Catholics?

LOL. Ain't goin' there dude. Enough on that subject for me.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Found a dramatic doco from NatGeo, those new to these issues may well be "shocked" by it, but I'm sure that others here will have a good chuckle at the over-the-top tone set by the voiceover and music soundtrack, interviewing the Thai special forces guy, the Christian missionary slant etc. Had no idea that FREELAND had branched into this lucrative industry; when they did their saturation advertising on the BTS last year they were only flogging their wildlife protection schtick, now they seem to be putting the "human slavery" issue at the forefront and partnering with international media.

Note I in no way defend the true instances of genuine trafficking apparently illustrated here, obviously the battle does need to be fought, but this footage is a perfect example of how this particular issue is portrayed with so much hype, and many can see the selfish interests of many of those involved reading between the lines.

Anybody here get caught on the secret cameras in Bossy or around Nana and Pattaya?

Also, the original grey man thread here on TV.

[BookMan]

If I was looking for information on Thai visas I would go to Thai Visa dot com. If I was looking for information about relationships with bar girls I would go the the reader submissions of a well known Thai oriented bar entertainment website.

You might even find a CMK submission there

[Travel2003]

If a good looking sexy woman treats you like a King, while you really are the Jester.

The woman farangs seem to marry are anything BUT sexy. They arent physically attractive at all!!!!!!

The woman farangs???

[Travel2003]

Does an overweight, old guy with receeding gums and hairline really think that a bar girl is dancing around a pole and being 'bar fined' because she wants to... 99% of these girls are in it for the money - to support their family. Is it really possible for a 'pay for play' girl to fall in love after being a hooker. Is she really just using the guy for money / financial security

what are the 1% in it for?????????????????????????

advancebooking,

Dont answer cheechoo.

cheechoo is either a troll (just look through his last 10 posts), or extremely immature.

[Morakot]

Why Do Men Expect Bar Girls To Love Them?

They are morons?

What's religion got to do with it?

Well spotted.

Word has it that some of them worship Mammon.

[rene123]

You are right, with the not so fun to be with, in case you look into the 'only for Thai'-part of the business.

But how comes, that you don't call it 'forced into? It's the only way, for lo-so girls, to earn enough money, to support the family (cause the government is thinking on this only just before elections). Everyone wanna have a motorcycles, LCD/:ED TV, a iPhone, a car, a house. The girls have the 'business' opportunity, to get it. So it's their duty, to support the elder. And the lazy brother's!

Being "forced" by economic conditions is entirely different from actually being coerced or deceived - essential to the definition of true trafficking.

The goods you're talking about their striving for are certainly not necessary for survival, and if in fact every human on this planet could afford them, at current population levels there wouldn't be any resources left within a very short time, the modern western lifestyle is simply not sustainable long term and if the distribution of goods is going to become anything close to fair, will have to give way to a lifestyle much closer to the rural Thai's than a more developed one.

Very few people are actually wanting for food in Thailand; in fact if they didn't import cheap foreign workers from the three poor neighboring countries wages would instantly and dramatically rise, for Thai citizens it's very close to a full employment situation here, even the most inexperienced, uneducated worker can come to Bangkok and get a job at the drop of a hat.

This idea that sex workers don't choose to be in the sex industry is just one of the myths propagated by the traditional anti-sex aspects of Christianity and old-school first wave feminism. Talk to the workers themselves and as long as the context doesn't cause them to think they've got something to gain by giving you a sob story 99% of the time it's clear they are there by choice and would only want to leave the business if a better offer comes along.

Very well said, BigJohnny. Hypocrites bother me more than anything and I see far too many of them in the "religious" sectors.

[poanoi]

If a good looking sexy woman treats you like a King, while you really are the Jester.

The woman farangs seem to marry are anything BUT sexy. They arent physically attractive at all!!!!!!

The woman farangs???

Sour grapes...

[HardenedSoul]

I think in your case it may not be drivel. You wrote, “I'm in my mid-40s; been here 5 years; been to a gogo bar on two occasions - the 2nd time dragged kicking and screaming - despite living in Asoke less than 50 yards from the jewel in the P4P crown, Soi Cowboy.”

The above statement is a long way from being accurate. Soi Cowboy is not the jewel in the P4P crown. No way.

I think you may, in this case, have to be allegorically shot to know it hurts.

Looking at organizations that do good and are all over the world and have large memberships one would have to go a long way to get better and larger than AA. I believe AA has around 2 million members. If I wanted to know something about drunks I would go to AA. I am comparing drunks, the bad side of drinking with bar girls the bad side of monogamous relationships. If I wanted to find out about war I would go to someone who was in the military. If I wanted to find out about sex slaves I would go to a group like the Empower Foundation which is made up of women who were sex slaves.

If I was looking for information on Thai visas I would go to Thai Visa dot com. If I was looking for information about relationships with bar girls I would go the the reader submissions of a well known Thai oriented bar entertainment website.

Based on what you have shared about yourself I don't feel you have the expertise to accurately discuss the issue as well as others available to the forum.

Whether or not Soi Cowboy is the P4P jewel in the crown is largely irrelevant to the wider discussion so I'll leave it to the mongers to make the call on that.

Back on topic, lemme see if I've got you right; I need to have had a bargirl girlfriend in Thailand to be able to comment on bargirls and the reasons as to why so many men - young and old - expect love from them, right??!!

I think my first post on this thread gives a reasonably accurate account of the typical sequence of events in a "clown-falls-in-love-with-bargirl" situation. I didn't actually have to go out and make the mistakes others have to prepare that account. Simply by talking to a lot of men and bargirls and keeping my eyes and ears open was more than enough.

[chiangmaikelly]

I think in your case it may not be drivel. You wrote, “I'm in my mid-40s; been here 5 years; been to a gogo bar on two occasions - the 2nd time dragged kicking and screaming - despite living in Asoke less than 50 yards from the jewel in the P4P crown, Soi Cowboy.”

The above statement is a long way from being accurate. Soi Cowboy is not the jewel in the P4P crown. No way.

I think you may, in this case, have to be allegorically shot to know it hurts.

Looking at organizations that do good and are all over the world and have large memberships one would have to go a long way to get better and larger than AA. I believe AA has around 2 million members. If I wanted to know something about drunks I would go to AA. I am comparing drunks, the bad side of drinking with bar girls the bad side of monogamous relationships. If I wanted to find out about war I would go to someone who was in the military. If I wanted to find out about sex slaves I would go to a group like the Empower Foundation which is made up of women who were sex slaves.

If I was looking for information on Thai visas I would go to Thai Visa dot com. If I was looking for information about relationships with bar girls I would go the the reader submissions of a well known Thai oriented bar entertainment website.

Based on what you have shared about yourself I don't feel you have the expertise to accurately discuss the issue as well as others available to the forum.

Whether or not Soi Cowboy is the P4P jewel in the crown is largely irrelevant to the wider discussion so I'll leave it to the mongers to make the call on that.

Back on topic, lemme see if I've got you right; I need to have had a bargirl girlfriend in Thailand to be able to comment on bargirls and the reasons as to why so many men - young and old - expect love from them, right??!!

I think my first post on this thread gives a reasonably accurate account of the typical sequence of events in a "clown-falls-in-love-with-bargirl" situation. I didn't actually have to go out and make the mistakes others have to prepare that account. Simply by talking to a lot of men and bargirls and keeping my eyes and ears open was more than enough.

The question is a bit hard to discern but as near as I can separate it out from his opinions is, “What did they (the John) expect ,its their job ,they are working ,and nobody works for free ,so when he cannot afford to pay her any longer ,she is off ,just like the gardener or the plumber if you couldnt pay for their services.” Or “Did you expect your bar girl lady to stick around after you stopped paying her?”

Perhaps you have a different take on the question than I do. I would be interested to read it. I don't think the OP says clown. I'm pretty sure about that.

But I guess we should agree on the question at least before we spend too much time debating.

So to sum up, I think the question is, “ Did you expect your bar girl lady to stick around after you stopped paying her?”

[TommoPhysicist]

So to sum up, I think the question is, “ Did you expect your bar girl lady to stick around after you stopped paying her?”

Or an alternative question.

"Do you expect to keep having to pay your bar girl lady, when she becomes too fat or old to attract customers"

[AdamRich]

So here he is in Thailand where cash is known to level the playing field. Any insecure, socially-inept, sartorially-challenged gimp can pull a woman several notches above the heifers he had to knock about with back in Farangland.

That goes for anywhere (see original poster's Bernie Ecclestone remark). It's just that in Thailand the amount of cash required to level the playing field is much less and therefore more easily attainable by the average Joe who visits than it was for him in Farangland. As he also said, run out of cash and your days of playing Bernie in Thailand are all over and you are back to the same square that you held in Farangland only now your title is dumb farang instead of teerak.

[Zatoichi]

I agree with the OP and one poster who simply said, "Because they are morons".

You have to be really pathetic to go that route. "Oh oh, Mine's different!" GTFO of here, with that BS! I tell em to their face when they ask me about lovin hoes. And I do so bluntly and in no uncertain terms. I consider it a public service announcement. Wanna be a "White Knight" try and save some dumb noob from wifeing a hooker. LoL, if you can do that, you practically deserve to be knighted

[chiangmaikelly]

I agree with the OP and one poster who simply said, "Because they are morons".

You have to be really pathetic to go that route. "Oh oh, Mine's different!" GTFO of here, with that BS! I tell em to their face when they ask me about lovin hoes. And I do so bluntly and in no uncertain terms. I consider it a public service announcement. Wanna be a "White Knight" try and save some dumb noob from wifeing a hooker. LoL, if you can do that, you practically deserve to be knighted

It was 1970 I was living with a Japanese/Chinese woman who was a product of rape during the Second World War. As a child no one wanted her. Not her Chinese mother nor Japanese people who were trying to forget the "comfort women." She became a hooker. I ran out of money. She moved me out of my hotel and into her small apartment with her and her child. She paid all the bills. It's been a long time. The only thing I remember her saying is, "Kelly, I want typhoon come tonight."

[AdamRich]

of course any prostitute could develop genuine emotions for a customer,as could the customer for her.

tangled up in this is the notion of selling/buying sex, what should be a natural and beautiful thing,becomes a commercial transaction, it may develop different meanings,but the lines become hazy when love/attachment is felt by one and not the other.

You have to admit that most of the time it is the trick who falls in love with the hooker and not the other way around. How many Thai prostitutes do you see killing themselves over a customer everyday? Next to none. They just move on to the next customer as is supposed to be the case.

If you have not seen the movie Brooklyn's Finest http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210042/ then I suggest you watch it. Richard Gere plays a police officer who goes to the same prostitute every week. As the business relationship continues over time he develops feelings for her. When he finally decides to retire he goes to the hooker and asks her to marry him. She laughs at him and reminds him that she is a hooker and that although their relationship has gone on for years it is one of business, not love.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Richard Gere

and of course Pretty Woman with the completely literal white knight scene at the end.

Doesn't happen often, but often enough you shouldn't over-generalize.

Just don't put your own lifetime security at risk over your belief in miracles.

[chiangmaikelly]

of course any prostitute could develop genuine emotions for a customer,as could the customer for her.

tangled up in this is the notion of selling/buying sex, what should be a natural and beautiful thing,becomes a commercial transaction, it may develop different meanings,but the lines become hazy when love/attachment is felt by one and not the other.

You have to admit that most of the time it is the trick who falls in love with the hooker and not the other way around. How many Thai prostitutes do you see killing themselves over a customer everyday? Next to none. They just move on to the next customer as is supposed to be the case.

If you have not seen the movie Brooklyn's Finest http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210042/ then I suggest you watch it. Richard Gere plays a police officer who goes to the same prostitute every week. As the business relationship continues over time he develops feelings for her. When he finally decides to retire he goes to the hooker and asks her to marry him. She laughs at him and reminds him that she is a hooker and that although their relationship has gone on for years it is one of business, not love.

It happens all the time and is reported in the Thai media. I know of ten women who have been major league depressed close to doing something rash. Check out the cut marks on Thai ladies. A lot have them. Sometimes a fake but still lots of blood and pain and nights in the hospital. It might be depression at loss of income or love. Who knows? What's the difference anyway?

[GuestHouse]

It happens all the time and is reported in the Thai media. I know of ten women who have been major league depressed close to doing something rash. Check out the cut marks on Thai ladies. A lot have them. Sometimes a fake but still lots of blood and pain and nights in the hospital. It might be depression at loss of income or love. Who knows? What's the difference anyway?

I think CMK this is a significant observation, and one often dismissed by those who claim the sex trade in Thailand is a trade in fully consenting adults.

As mentioned above a distinct difference between the relationship between prostitutes and Johns in Thailand v the same business back in Farangland is the purchase here in Thailand of the 'Girlfriend experience' versus back in the west where prostitutes maintain barriers between intimacy and sex.

Clearly selling the 'Girlfriend Experience' comes with emotional risks - the self harm you have observed is, like self harm elsewhere in the world a symptom of serious emotional disturbance. The price of this 'Girlfriend Experience' is then not simply the bar fine and a further cash payment.

Suicide and self harm are of course extreme manifestations of emotional problems, there are other more common symptoms and we read about those on a regular basis - former prostitutes who exhibit depression, dependancy, severe bouts jealousy and explosive anger.

Thanks for posting, your observations of self harm are I think too often overlooked aspect of the sex trade here in Thailand.

Edited November 19, 2012 by GuestHouse

[Neeranam]

So to sum up, I think the question is, “ Did you expect your bar girl lady to stick around after you stopped paying her?”

Or an alternative question.

"Do you expect to keep having to pay your bar girl lady, when she becomes too fat or old to attract customers"

Now you're getting to the reality of the situation.

The 'bar lady' pretends to love the guy as she knows there is a good chance that he will. This is one of the huge benefits, or pension bonus, of picking up a gullible farang.

Or maybe there is actually some kind of love - If I were a poor farmer's daughter and in return for a bit of sex with an middle-aged/old idiot, I'd get a life of luxury - new pickup truck, best house in the village, never have to do a days work again, all my cousins and siblings able to walk round Tesco while the idiot pays for everything etc, I guess I'd love it.

I was at Tesco in Khon Kaen yesterday and really think the humanitarian thing for them to do would be to refuse service to a single farang over 50 with a trolley and more than 2 Thai people - it's so sad to see. Unless he an show a doctor's note showing that he still has his marbles. Other giveaway sign include wearing a Chang/Singha vest.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Neeranam