Australian Charity Head Accused Of Faking The Rescue Of Thai Hill Tribe Children Resigns

[Yunla]

It is no coincidence that many random email-scams are now based around the notion of philanthropic charity & alleviating suffering, rather than just attaining instant wealth for the email recipient.

The heart is a direct highway to the wallet, bypassing the brain entirely.

My own view is that if you are a billionaire then you can throw money at every charity you find and at least *some* of the macro-scale money will reach the needy.

But that for ordinary people it is far better to help your local communities, assist peoople around you with your time & energy & money too. That way you are directly assisting & you can actually SEE your money going to good use.

My longest-time Thai friend is single Mum with two kids & she is also repaying her ex-husbands gambling debts (he borrowed a lot of money from bkk mafia then fled to Taiwan, leaving his wife to shoulder the debt). As she gets no assistance at all from the state and her children were suffering from the debt repayments, I assisted and in this way helped 2 small girls out of severe poverty without resorting to a 3rd Party. I am not rich and I'm not a charity worker but I am a Buddhist and believe that we should all help those around us on a micro scale for their benefit and our own.

[samsiam]

I would agree with that with a couple of caveats.

The Grey Man and other anti trafficking groups cause much of the problem by requesting young women from brothel managers (Grey Man does this as per his web site training manual (See “down the rabbit hole”)). At the request of the anti trafficking groups the brothel managers procure underage women. Empower Foundation also points out this problem and also the prison like conditions that the ladies are confined in after their arrest/rescue.

The other thing is the Great White Aussie Hope thing. How would you feel if some bored Thai para military types started busting Aussie brothels and raiding homes of child abusers? What is the difference? There a lot of brothels in Australia and one occasionally reads about under age employees in Aussie brothels. So tell me how you would feel?

So I have only two problems. It is not just Grey Man it is the rescue mentality of white guys saving brown people again and ending up part of the problem instead the solution and the white. superiority complex demonstrated this time instead of the white only Australia policy it is the white morality is better than Asian morality and we will come and fix you. I know you white ex cops and military fellows think you are more moral and better people than Thai cops and military fellows but it is not your country to make those decisions.

That you bribe a few officials to operate in Thailand does not impress me the attitude remains.

Wow...seems age does not always come with knowledge and understanding.

The brothel managers or procurers have these children a long time before any customer comes along.

And as for a Thai busting Australian brothels and such....Australia and most western countries have a complex and well funded system in place to cope with all of this kind of stuff....it may not always work, but their resources to investigate and willingness to do so is tenfold on any Thai or Cambo as such based operation.

If a westerner wants to travel from their home country to fiddle with kids...why do you think that is so....because it is easier than in their home country....so if that country does not care to do so much to stop it and if that countries police force are a part of it....then it is up to others to try to at least do something about it.....

People like you Kerry have the attitude to leave it all to the Thais to do properly...we have seen where that goes and your attitude to it all sucks big ones....really.

'So tell me how you would feel?'.....to be honest if it got the job done and it was the same as what is done here....research and evidence gathering and then working with the Australian police to raid it...I would be all for it if a child was taken from sexual abuse and the instigators were locked up.

But I guess you would be against that kind of Brown Knight syndrome.

[Jessi]

Kerry, you spoke earlier in the topic about an Orphanage near Rayong. I was at that Orphanage last week met a young girl 7 years old infected with HIV, I'm told she contacted HIV when she was raped at 4 years of age. If that was left up to the Thais she would be discarded like a piece of rubbish I have seen this in the past. Now that she is in this orphanage at least she has a chance of getting the correct medication and leading a normal life.........So what your saying Kerry is to just leave it up to the Thais.

[metisdead]

A reply to a post has been removed as the act of replying to the post altered the quoted text.

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Posters are reminded to stay on topic and to refrain from comments concerning the character of other posters. More posts to be removed.

[kerryk]

I believe if you read the Grey Man site you will find out that Grey Man is not after Farangs who come to Thailand but Thai men and other Asian men who frequent brothels with younger workers.

That's where the problems started because his paramilitary guys who wanted the action and excitement came to Thailand but did not speak Thai so the Thai Grey Man Thai operative sent them away.

The only cases I know of involving foreign men with young people were young boys. There was a Russian piano player and a couple of other guys if my memory serves me correctly. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the Grey Man Paramilitary types go into gay bars? I guess they don't care about that side of the problem. I wonder why? Do you know? They only rescue girls. Why is that? Maybe young boys don't get trafficked?

Edited April 9, 2012 by kerryk

[kerryk]

Kerry, you spoke earlier in the topic about an Orphanage near Rayong. I was at that Orphanage last week met a young girl 7 years old infected with HIV, I'm told she contacted HIV when she was raped at 4 years of age. If that was left up to the Thais she would be discarded like a piece of rubbish I have seen this in the past. Now that she is in this orphanage at least she has a chance of getting the correct medication and leading a normal life.........So what your saying Kerry is to just leave it up to the Thais.

I was not aware there were children there who had been raped I'll ask about it the next time I go.

Actually I only know about the treatment they receive after they get there and I have not listened to how they got there.

You are correct the Thais don't do much about the problem.

I think the orphanage does 100% good works. Maybe 98% as I don't much care for any thing religious but this place is mostly different.

The difference for me is that the orphanage helps the problem. I don't think you can compare it to the traffic rescue people who make the problem worse.

It is not just Grey Man. The Thai rescue people also make the problem worse. There are good NGO's like Empower and the orphanage. I help them they help the people and the problem.

This whole thread I think I may come across as a jerk. It is not that I don't see a problem or care about it. I would like to see it go away. I don't want to see it get worse. The rescue NGO's in my opinion make it worse. That's the only reason I am posting. I am not alone in this belief. Most of the female managed NGO's also hold this belief.

Go ahead see if you can find out something bad about Empower foundation. They don't have scandal problems like Grey Man.

Chantawipa Apisuk, founder of Empower Foundation.

When asked about all the stories of women who have been forced into prostitution by kidnapping and torture, Chantawipa said: "It is not real."

She said that from the foundation's long history of involvement with sex workers - in bars, massage parlours and brothels - it's clear that almost all of them know beforehand that they have to sell their bodies for money.

"The police raids are always accompanied by reporters and photographers. The women's pictures then appear in newspapers and on television. They and their families have to bear a lot of shame," she said.

"After the raids, no one helps them to pay their debts, gives them money for their families, gives them an education or helps them to find a better job. They have to continue bearing their own problems, which are often worsened," said Chantawipa.

http://www.thai-100.com/Empower_Foundation.html

[samsiam]

Your hero Chantawipa also said this..."Much has improved - no more pimps or mamasans"...... which instantly throws some concerns on her credibility.

Your comment here however... 'This whole thread I think I may come across as a jerk. It is not that I don't see a problem or care about it. I would like to see it go away.' ......has some truth about it.

[Geekfreaklover]

I would say that what occured here is a common business practice amongst NGO's working in SE Asia. If you want to start a new business you identify a market. If you start a new NGO you identify a problem. Then you think how to service that problem without actually resolving it. If the market/problem is resolved/satisfied then there is no need for it to continue. Cynical, yes. I've been around a while. NGO's often start with the best of intentions but many of them end up with more money than they know what to do with. They get greedy. They want more money. They post pictures of kids they claim to have rescued in order to get more money to support their lifestyle in an exotic locale.

I see owners of NGO's iving in the best part of town scratching their <deleted> and playing around on facebook. The Christan owner of my local school lives in a mansion with swimming pool and acres of land. He doesn't speak Thai, understands nothing about Thai culture and lives like a lord. I see English teachers working fifty hours a week and getting paid pittance and living in the bad parts of town.

These smash and grab raids don't work. There was a US NGO that rescued a bunch of sex workers in the north a couple of years back. The sex workers were confused, offended. They escaped from the hotel the NGO had put them in and returned to their place of work.

I am with Kerryk on this one.

An Australian got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and the posters defending him have probably got a cookie jar of their own to defend.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Geekfreaklover

[samsiam]

An Australian got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and the posters defending him have probably got a cookie jar of their own to defend.

No cookie jar here.....you fail to see the years that this Mcbride guy has put in of his own time and own money....then.....an incident.....most likely not of his own doing and all of a sudden he is the biggest arsehol_e in the country and should be condemned.....you all have very narrow vision and extremely short memories.

[simon43]

.. and the posters defending him have probably got a cookie jar of their own to defend.

That is a very sweeping (and incorrect) statement. Whilst this post has concentrated on the 'macho' Aussie soldier types of GM, please do not forget that there are a number of expats living in Thailand and other south-east Asian countries who do quietly assist GM, and who are very well versed in the local culture and language.

Like many noble enterprises, those who contribute greatly often go unseen and unrewarded - and do not seek reward.

One final correction concerning GM and gay bars/underage boys in prostitution. They most certainly do get involved in this area, but intelligence gathering/surveillance etc of any sort is not something to talk about publically

Simon

[Geekfreaklover]

An Australian got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and the posters defending him have probably got a cookie jar of their own to defend.

No cookie jar here.....you fail to see the years that this Mcbride guy has put in of his own time and own money....then.....an incident.....most likely not of his own doing and all of a sudden he is the biggest arsehol_e in the country and should be condemned.....you all have very narrow vision and extremely short memories.

My view is narrow and short because I'm looking at a narrow and short inncident. His tactics and methods didn't work. He stepped down.

[Geekfreaklover]

.. and the posters defending him have probably got a cookie jar of their own to defend.

That is a very sweeping (and incorrect) statement. Whilst this post has concentrated on the 'macho' Aussie soldier types of GM, please do not forget that there are a number of expats living in Thailand and other south-east Asian countries who do quietly assist GM, and who are very well versed in the local culture and language.

Like many noble enterprises, those who contribute greatly often go unseen and unrewarded - and do not seek reward.

One final correction concerning GM and gay bars/underage boys in prostitution. They most certainly do get involved in this area, but intelligence gathering/surveillance etc of any sort is not something to talk about publically

Simon

Simon,

Yes it is a sweeping statement (and one that I'm not proud of) but the use of the word "probably" is key. I am sure that there are great NGO workers out there who do more good than harm, but after living my entire adult life here I've yet to meet one. On the other hand I've met many great people who are working for Thais in schools etc that make a huge difference and rely on domestic funds paid for by Thais.

[Ulysses G.]

Your hero Chantawipa also said this..."Much has improved - no more pimps or mamasans"...... which instantly throws some concerns on her credibility.

My guess she is talking about pimps and mamasans in Thailand that force the girls to work against their will and IMO, in general, she is right.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[TAWP]

Has anyone explained how faking rescues is the sign of a good charity yet?

Has Fedpol concluded or even comenced an investigation and determined if they were faked or are they still only allegations? Has the AFP even considered it even warrants an investigation.

Thanks for the non-answer reply.

Let me know when there is any proof there was a rescue and not a scam non-correct public campaign going on.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Within the last 6 months...don't remember when exactly... my Thai wife and I watched a Thai documentary on an organized child sex prositution ring that the Thai police had broken up. The girls shown were between 13 and 25.

....

If that's not considered Thai sex slavery...what is?

The point is that the **international** NGOs aren't putting resources into solving that actual problem anyway. Probably not because they don't care; I think it's more likely a combination of the fact that it's more difficult to get funding for such efforts, more expensive to get the cooperation of the few sectors of Thai law-enforcement and government, and the fact that all major organized crime networks are closely tied in with powerful people that can block the NGOs work in other areas that **are** more important to their central mission.

Those international NGOs in the particular market niche of "ending child sex trafficking" publicly focus on the "windmill" of the above problem having any relationship at all to the normal sex industry that caters to foreign customers. Furthermore, they are coming from a fundamentalist so-called "Christian" point of view where the commercial sex business is inherently bad and assume that the workers in that industry should be "rescued" from it.

They have no interest in Empower's approach, which is to actually help the sex workers through education, grass-roots campaigning for their interests, and protection from their very real problems, a major one of which is local officials being in league with the mafia which together profit from the industry's criminalization. The very real negative consequences of the sex industry, just as with most recreational drugs would disappear if they were decriminalized and regulated - most of the problems actually come from the fact that they have been made illegal!

And these NGOs end up spending huge amounts of time, energy and money (donated as well as tax funds) with very very few real results, since they are generally tilting at windows.

So no one's saying that this sort of thing doesn't still happen in Thailand. However, it is true that the media everywhere tends to exaggerate how common this sort of thing actually is, because it's a story that grabs a lot of readers/viewers. Such things exist in the US as well, also in Europe, and Australia, probably as a percentage nearly as frequently as here. Since the media tends to get its "information" from the self-interested witch-hunting NGOs, they don't actually education the public with the objective facts.

These enormous efforts and funds should go into the empowerment of **local** NGOs, run by southeast asian **women**, ideally current or ex- sex-workers themselves, with the goal of actually helping the victims with their problems - the problems ** they consider to be problems **, not judging them from our alien outsider's irrelevant moral paradigms.

[chooka]

Has anyone explained how faking rescues is the sign of a good charity yet?

Has Fedpol concluded or even comenced an investigation and determined if they were faked or are they still only allegations? Has the AFP even considered it even warrants an investigation.

Thanks for the non-answer reply.

Let me know when there is any proof there was a rescue and not a scam non-correct public campaign going on.

Well the Australian authorities have found no evidence of a scam (Criminal Offence) so these allegations are just <deleted>, just mud throwing on behalf of a few corrupt thais. It is done and dusted and the case closed by Fedpol no subtantial evidence that it didn't happen.

[kerryk]

Has anyone explained how faking rescues is the sign of a good charity yet?

Has Fedpol concluded or even comenced an investigation and determined if they were faked or are they still only allegations? Has the AFP even considered it even warrants an investigation.

Thanks for the non-answer reply.

Let me know when there is any proof there was a rescue and not a scam non-correct public campaign going on.

Well the Australian authorities have found no evidence of a scam (Criminal Offence) so these allegations are just <deleted>, just mud throwing on behalf of a few corrupt thais. It is done and dusted and the case closed by Fedpol no subtantial evidence that it didn't happen.

Since you seem to know, did they investigate? I was under the impression they did not. But I could be wrong of course. Grey Man is not a registered charity in Thailand only Australia so his web site states. Why would they investigate something that happened in Thailand?

[TAWP]

Has anyone explained how faking rescues is the sign of a good charity yet?

Has Fedpol concluded or even comenced an investigation and determined if they were faked or are they still only allegations? Has the AFP even considered it even warrants an investigation.

Thanks for the non-answer reply.

Let me know when there is any proof there was a rescue and not a scam non-correct public campaign going on.

Well the Australian authorities have found no evidence of a scam (Criminal Offence) so these allegations are just <deleted>, just mud throwing on behalf of a few corrupt thais. It is done and dusted and the case closed by Fedpol no subtantial evidence that it didn't happen.

Failure to prove a scam doesn't preclude a scam.

But to put the record right, I asked for proof that the rescue took place. Not for proof that a scam did not took place.

[softgeorge]

@ TAWP -

These are allegations of obtaining financial advantage by deception, an indictable offence in Australia and as such it is up to the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that an offence occured. In Australia the accused does not have to prove innocence or even comment on anything. The slightest little bit of doubt and any investigation or charges will be thrown out and these allegations are riddled with doubt. So as this is an Australian issue then those accusing must prove that the rescue beyond or reasonable doubt was faked and if they can't satisfy the Australian authorities 110% then the rescue took place as stated. It is pointless disgrunted Thais shooting thier mouths off if they can't meet Australian standards, might work in a developing corrupt country but not Australia. So the resue took place and there is nothing to prove otherwise.

[kerryk]

@ TAWP -

These are allegations of obtaining financial advantage by deception, an indictable offence in Australia and as such it is up to the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that an offence occured. In Australia the accused does not have to prove innocence or even comment on anything. The slightest little bit of doubt and any investigation or charges will be thrown out and these allegations are riddled with doubt. So as this is an Australian issue then those accusing must prove that the rescue beyond or reasonable doubt was faked and if they can't satisfy the Australian authorities 110% then the rescue took place as stated. It is pointless disgrunted Thais shooting thier mouths off if they can't meet Australian standards, might work in a developing corrupt country but not Australia. So the resue took place and there is nothing to prove otherwise.

I asked Chooka but I guess it's not his turn to be evasive so I will ask you. Did the Australian government investigate the faking of the rescue of the hill tribe children? I was under the impression they did not. But I could be wrong of course. Grey Man is not a registered charity in Thailand only Australia so his web site states. Why would they investigate something that happened in Thailand?

As far as I know this thread is only about faking the rescue of Thai Hill tribe children.

Didn't Andrew Drummond write that Grey Man faked the rescue? I think he did and the Australian press picked up the story. Wouldn't that be libel or or something like that? Isn't that against the law in Australia? Couldn't Grey Man sue him? Or at least the newspapers who ran the story in Australia?

"CHIANGRAI TIMES – Thailand’s Department of Special Investigations has begun an investigation into the alleged fake rescue last year of hill tribe children from sexual slavery by an Australian charity.” Do you know, what did the Thai department of Special Investigations find?

I can't find any reference by any news source that does not say Grey Man faked the rescue. The only person I have seen say that in print is you? Do you have a source we can all look at? I guess you are getting your information from someplace. Where?

[flyingsporran]

@ TAWP -

These are allegations of obtaining financial advantage by deception, an indictable offence in Australia and as such it is up to the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that an offence occured. In Australia the accused does not have to prove innocence or even comment on anything. The slightest little bit of doubt and any investigation or charges will be thrown out and these allegations are riddled with doubt. So as this is an Australian issue then those accusing must prove that the rescue beyond or reasonable doubt was faked and if they can't satisfy the Australian authorities 110% then the rescue took place as stated. It is pointless disgrunted Thais shooting thier mouths off if they can't meet Australian standards, might work in a developing corrupt country but not Australia. So the resue took place and there is nothing to prove otherwise.

Interesting point SoftGeorge. The Australian Police are not investigating the alleged rescue. That has been investigated in Thailand and the findings passed on to the Australian police. TGM has yet to provide any evidence to the public of the rescue of these children and it would be difficult to provide it to the AFP or Queensland Police while the villagers, children, police and ngos deny it it - and the children remain in the village where they have always lived. In short nobody expects the Queenland Police to prosecute - too expensive dragging all the witnesses from Thailand. That was probably a shot across the bows. I suspect the real action will come from the Thai Govt later.

TGM would be better advised following the Australian pimp I came across in Pattaya recently.

Edited April 12, 2012 by flyingsporran

[flyingsporran]

Has anyone explained how faking rescues is the sign of a good charity yet?

Has Fedpol concluded or even comenced an investigation and determined if they were faked or are they still only allegations? Has the AFP even considered it even warrants an investigation.

Thanks for the non-answer reply.

Let me know when there is any proof there was a rescue and not a scam non-correct public campaign going on.

Well the Australian authorities have found no evidence of a scam (Criminal Offence) so these allegations are just <deleted>, just mud throwing on behalf of a few corrupt thais. It is done and dusted and the case closed by Fedpol no subtantial evidence that it didn't happen.

It was a Queenland Police matter. Fed Pol were just the intermediaries

[kerryk]

Dear Mr Drummond and Chooka and Soft George,

Correct me if I am wrong. As I read the news and this thread and the INTERNET everyone thinks the rescue of the 21 Hill Tribe children was a fake except Chooka and Soft George?

Mr Drummond, as I read your interview of the Grey Man he said he was going to provide information that would back up his contention that the rescue was not false but he has not done so?

Is there any evidence that the rescue took place? All the kids who were rescued say it didn't happen and the photo has been exposed as a fraud, what else is there?

As far as I know the Queensland police have said nothing about the rescue? And as far as I know the Australian police have investigated nothing? George and Chooka or George or Chooka do you have access to any information that the Australian police have investigated anything?

[oldsailor35]

Dear Mr Drummond and Chooka and Soft George,

Correct me if I am wrong. As I read the news and this thread and the INTERNET everyone thinks the rescue of the 21 Hill Tribe children was a fake except Chooka and Soft George?

Mr Drummond, as I read your interview of the Grey Man he said he was going to provide information that would back up his contention that the rescue was not false but he has not done so?

Is there any evidence that the rescue took place? All the kids who were rescued say it didn't happen and the photo has been exposed as a fraud, what else is there?

As far as I know the Queensland police have said nothing about the rescue? And as far as I know the Australian police have investigated nothing? George and Chooka or George or Chooka do you have access to any information that the Australian police have investigated anything?

Bye geez ! this kerryk joker really does have a chip on his shoulder. Now i just wonder what really got up his nose, he just won't let go will he. He appears obsessed with it all does'nt he ?

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe he just thinks that the rescue was faked.