Hiit The Magical Cure It All

[robblok]

Hi,

Just my opinion on HIIT after having read about it and done it.

I don't think the afterburn of HIIT is that great some research has been done saying its not that great. So i still believe you can burn more by normal cardio. I do MAF cardio.

However i try to do 1 HIIT session on my rower because it does get you in shape faster (not talking about loosing fat but stamina). Stamina then again helps you to do more steady state cardio.

I doubt its a good idea for me to do it more then once a week as i have a heavy workout load already. It does take an enormous toll on the central nervous system.

HIIT is just interval training, sprinting 30 seconds normal walk 60 seconds.. rinse and repeat 5 times preferable with a warmup and cool down.

Things like sprinting, or a spinning bike, or the rowing machine are great for HITT because you have to be able to adjust the drag fast and release it fast. A treadmill is not that good for it as it takes to long to increase or slow down. Personally i love it on the rower because you only have to pull harder, no settings nothing. Just pull harder.

I do hate HIIT and don't really like doing it because its hard, but i do believe it will help build stamina quite fast and that in turn helps you with your other sports and loosing fat.

I also believe HIIT helps to conserve muscle more then steady state cardio as you put a higher demand on your body so it will not break down muscle because it thinks it does not need it.

I got all this information from various sources, some rave about HIIT others don't im in the middle saying it has its uses.

[Tolley]

I did the interval training on the bike a few years back. I think it was sprint 8 secs then slow speed for 12 seconds then repeat for 30 mins.

According to all the research it is the best way to maximise weight loss in a cardio session.

I got bored with it as it is quite monotonous doing the sprint rest all the time.

[robblok]

Depends, some research says its the best other says its not. I don't know what to believe. Some say the afterburn (burning calories when you are done is super) other says its only 100cals.

On the rower i do 1minute (250 meters i set meters not minutes) sprint and then 500 meters normal. Rinse and repeat 5 times... more if you get in better shape. I can tell you its real intense a minute of sprinting is hard. But its ok once you are done.

But i read more about it and it is said it does really strain your central nervous system. Combine that with my other workouts and its a recipe for over training. So i just do it once a week, but only to improve my stamina VO2 max so i can burn more in steady state cardio.

A 45-50 minutes MAF (is 180 - age) heart-rate row is less hard but burns more calories. then my HIIT session. Also it strains my body less. But the more your stamina is the more you can burn.

Tropo has a concept 2 rower too and pulls a bit harder then me. (he used one much longer as me) He burns more in the same time while keeping in his MAF range. I just hope the HIIT helps me to improve on my MAF rowing sessions.

But just like your sessions the general rule is that recovery is 2 times the sprint. Anyway its always good to mix things up a bit.

[JSixpack]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

[robblok]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

Its quite rough on the body i can imagine. I am wheezing like a 79yo climbing a mountain when im doing it.

[SamGio]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

Its quite rough on the body i can imagine. I am wheezing like a 79yo climbing a mountain when im doing it.

Agree with all above on taking care about over training. You also eat an elephant one bite at a time.

On HIIT, I had good help with various plans. They can be adapted to various equipment. I've used it for a rower and a threadmill.

The plan I used was The Pete Plan. You can google it. It's not commercial, just a guy helping folks with input.

It took me some years, but now I do about 12 different sessions a week - three of them HIIT - I don't follow the Pete plan now, but it was a steppingstone for me and of course one has to be mindful of overtraining. However a lot is up to conditioning, genes and no ego. Do it for yourself, not to be better than someone else. So HIIT is helpful - it also toughens you up.

Just think about it: If you ever take a rest day on a non-rest day, you will cut that corner again and again. So HIIT can be part of a structured lifestyle, but as you all say - not too often.

[robblok]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

Its quite rough on the body i can imagine. I am wheezing like a 79yo climbing a mountain when im doing it.

Agree with all above on taking care about over training. You also eat an elephant one bite at a time.

On HIIT, I had good help with various plans. They can be adapted to various equipment. I've used it for a rower and a threadmill.

The plan I used was The Pete Plan. You can google it. It's not commercial, just a guy helping folks with input.

It took me some years, but now I do about 12 different sessions a week - three of them HIIT - I don't follow the Pete plan now, but it was a steppingstone for me and of course one has to be mindful of overtraining. However a lot is up to conditioning, genes and no ego. Do it for yourself, not to be better than someone else. So HIIT is helpful - it also toughens you up.

Just think about it: If you ever take a rest day on a non-rest day, you will cut that corner again and again. So HIIT can be part of a structured lifestyle, but as you all say - not too often.

Yea overtraining can be a factor, and yes i have taken rests on non rest days but trained on non training days too. But now almost every day is a training day. Actually, i workout every day so if once every few weeks i take a rest i don't care about it.

I used to just train 4 days.. but now on my rest days i row. That is why 2 sessions are MAF (180-age) is the heartrate you aim for. That is not a rough cardio session, it keeps thing doable and your not dead when you leave the rower. Actually get energy from it.

1 day HIIT now.. but that does leave me dead, but i do think it can help.

And yes i heard of the Pete Plan, thing is with 4 days of lifting and just 3 days left to row (and i don't make those days too hard else i will destroy myself) i cant really go for something like that.

[SamGio]

@robblok

Your points are well taken. I agree and as you say, training progresses. You used to do 4 days weight training. Now you even row on your "days off" MAF training is hard too, so it just goes to show how much you progressed in your body's ability to recuperate.

[robblok]

@robblok

Your points are well taken. I agree and as you say, training progresses. You used to do 4 days weight training. Now you even row on your "days off" MAF training is hard too, so it just goes to show how much you progressed in your body's ability to recuperate.

Sure but i am on the edge of overtraining i took a week off and everything went up.. (weights i lifted speeds with rowing) shows that i am not having enough rest. But soon ill have a few weeks of because i am going on a real holiday.

Its just something you have to be careful with.. and HIIT really can be that little bit too much that you do.

[tropo]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

Its quite rough on the body i can imagine. I am wheezing like a 79yo climbing a mountain when im doing it.

Agree with all above on taking care about over training. You also eat an elephant one bite at a time.

On HIIT, I had good help with various plans. They can be adapted to various equipment. I've used it for a rower and a threadmill.

The plan I used was The Pete Plan. You can google it. It's not commercial, just a guy helping folks with input.

It took me some years, but now I do about 12 different sessions a week - three of them HIIT - I don't follow the Pete plan now, but it was a steppingstone for me and of course one has to be mindful of overtraining. However a lot is up to conditioning, genes and no ego. Do it for yourself, not to be better than someone else. So HIIT is helpful - it also toughens you up.

Just think about it: If you ever take a rest day on a non-rest day, you will cut that corner again and again. So HIIT can be part of a structured lifestyle, but as you all say - not too often.

Having read your recent posts about how much rowing you do in a week, I'd have to say you come across as a dedicated over-trainer.

I've done my fair share of over-training too, but I'm more careful these days. I combine weight sessions with rowing and other cardio types - at the moment stationary biking however I would prefer a Cybex Arc Trainer if only I could find one to use. I don't think doing one exercise is the way to go. Rowing is good, but doing it everyday is eventually going to take its toll - as would anything else done too frequently. Variety is the key to a healthy training program.

You haven't mentioned your age - it makes a huge difference. Connective tissue loses its elasticity as we age. At age 53 I definitely have to use more common sense than a younger guy. Tendons, ligaments and joints have to be treated kindly.

[tropo]

It's great but it gave me tendonitis I've yet fully to recover from.

Its quite rough on the body i can imagine. I am wheezing like a 79yo climbing a mountain when im doing it.

Agree with all above on taking care about over training. You also eat an elephant one bite at a time.

On HIIT, I had good help with various plans. They can be adapted to various equipment. I've used it for a rower and a threadmill.

The plan I used was The Pete Plan. You can google it. It's not commercial, just a guy helping folks with input.

It took me some years, but now I do about 12 different sessions a week - three of them HIIT - I don't follow the Pete plan now, but it was a steppingstone for me and of course one has to be mindful of overtraining. However a lot is up to conditioning, genes and no ego. Do it for yourself, not to be better than someone else. So HIIT is helpful - it also toughens you up.

Just think about it: If you ever take a rest day on a non-rest day, you will cut that corner again and again. So HIIT can be part of a structured lifestyle, but as you all say - not too often.

Yea overtraining can be a factor, and yes i have taken rests on non rest days but trained on non training days too. But now almost every day is a training day. Actually, i workout every day so if once every few weeks i take a rest i don't care about it.

I used to just train 4 days.. but now on my rest days i row. That is why 2 sessions are MAF (180-age) is the heartrate you aim for. That is not a rough cardio session, it keeps thing doable and your not dead when you leave the rower. Actually get energy from it.

1 day HIIT now.. but that does leave me dead, but i do think it can help.

And yes i heard of the Pete Plan, thing is with 4 days of lifting and just 3 days left to row (and i don't make those days too hard else i will destroy myself) i cant really go for something like that.

I think it is important to decide what we are training for. I've spent years in the past without a goal. I would do bodybuilding. powerlifting, olympic lifting and swimming all at the same time and succeed at none. IMO the key to success is specializing with clear goals.

I really don't think HIIT rowing has any place in a serious weight training (bodybuilding) program because the muscles you are using are probably bordering on overuse already from your weight training. If they are not, then you're not (weight) training hard enough which I'm sure is not the case with you.

You say you are doing an HIIT rowing session once a week in order to improve your rowing capacity. I don't think it will achieve this and you'll lose muscle building benefits from your regular weight training program by not resting. In other words, that rest day is more beneficial for you than the HIIT session which you say leaves you feeling dead. I can't even see why improving your rowing ability should be a consideration for you. If you wanted to be a competition rower, then you'd have to specialize on rowing and you wouldn't be doing that on a calorie restricted diet anyway.

For the best part of 20 years I've rowed with no idea of how I matched up with anyone else. I just got on the rowing machine and rowed, either as a warmup or a heart rate monitored cardio session. I didn't check the Concept 2 world records to see what percentile I was in and it didn't matter and I didn't care. I never saw rowing as a competition exercise and I never will. One thing is for sure, if one becomes too competitive with others or their own records, injuries are soon to follow because it's nearly impossible to be competitive and sensible at the same time.

If you really wanted to improve your cardio fitness a less upper body intensive workout would be a better choice. (eg biking). Rowing uses the lower back, shoulders and arms too much if you are weight training hard. These bodyparts really need to be fresh when you're doing serious lifting and looking for maximum growth. Often when I get on the rower my shoulders really burn due to intensive shoulder work the previous 2 or 3 days. The shoulders are too vulnerable to overtraining, and in your program they are worked nearly everyday with the exception of a leg only day (if you have one of them). One of the keys to my recent progress is giving the shoulders 2 or 3 days of total rest. If you develop a shoulder injury you're upper body cannot be trained effectively and months of recuperation could be necessary. If you mess up your lower back, which is easy to do with HIIT rowing, then all your core strength will fly out the window.

I know you know all this, I just wanted to get it down in writing.

Edited November 18, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Rowing has something for me, but bodybuilding (as in getting a good physique) is nr 1. I think you are partly right that its foolish to try it all. I have noticed as i told you that im bordering if not really over training. The only reason to improve rowing was to burn more calories. I don't have any set goals as in speed or time.

I'm probably working out a bit too much. I agree there for sure. Might have to scale it back a bit and see how it goes as the main thing right now is getting rid of even more fat.

Edited November 18, 2012 by robblok

[tropo]

Rowing has something for me, but bodybuilding (as in getting a good physique) is nr 1. I think you are partly right that its foolish to try it all. I have noticed as i told you that im bordering if not really over training. The only reason to improve rowing was to burn more calories. I don't have any set goals as in speed or time.

I'm probably working out a bit too much. I agree there for sure. Might have to scale it back a bit and see how it goes as the main thing right now is getting rid of even more fat.

You've already achieved remarkable success this year. Taking a step back later this month while you're on holiday will be good for you. You need that because you're getting into a dangerous "addicted" phase. If you've come out of the last 11 months without any injuries, you've been lucky.

I've had to go through this mental adjustment phase right now. I wanted to continue my training for the whole time I'll be in the Philippines, but decided that 2 full weeks off training will give me some time to reset and help eliminate some minor niggling aches and pains I've developed by overtraining or near overtraining all year.

Taking voluntary time off can be difficult. It's takes more mental effort than overtraining.

Edited November 18, 2012 by tropo

[Tolley]

I reckon the bike would be better to do for cardio as Tropo says.

A half hour of interval training on a weights day off isnt going to hurt you at all.

Still from your reading your posts I think you are training too much.

4 days of weights is surely enough.

And further you should have a few weeks off a couple of times a each year to recharge yourself.

I dont follow a fixed plan I go by what I feel and what other things may be happening in my life.

I usually train 4 days a week but as i say sometimes I only do two if i am busy.

[tropo]

I reckon the bike would be better to do for cardio as Tropo says.

A half hour of interval training on a weights day off isnt going to hurt you at all.

HIIT on the rower is extremely hard work on many muscle groups. 250 m at 1:30 - 1:40 pace is extremely intense and as much exertion as a weight workout for the upper and lower back and arms... and this is done on a day off from weights? I wouldn't do it. These muscles need a good rest after a hard session of weights.

If the weight sessions were lower intensity high reps, then HIIT rowing wouldn't interfere too much, but I don't think Robblok trains with low intensity.

When I do HIIT on a Cybex Arc Trainer (for example), there is no intensity felt in any specific muscle groups. It's easy to get the heart rate high with leg and hip muscles, but using the upper body as in rowing it is much more difficult. Sure, you use legs when you row, but not intensely.

One has to take the whole week's training into consideration. It's not easy to come up with a perfect solution. One way to make it a bit easier is to lose the idea of having to do everything in 7 day cycles. It's an uneven number and makes balancing out the workouts more difficult. For example I mostly use an 8 day cycle and sometimes I push that to 9 or 10 days. If Robblok extended his cycle to 8 days he could still have a rest day and also do an HIIT session.

Edited November 18, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

You are right, anyway soon first a nice holiday with my parents and then when i come back i can look into training again. It looks good, im at a great level now and what i want i can achieve next year.

I just had a great workout chest and triceps and abs. Just good solid workout. The reason i did HIIT on the rower is because (if your not lifting) its made for it. You don't have to set anything you can just pull harder and your doing HIIT. With the bike i will have to set the drag and operate a timer. Still it can be done. I should actually use the bike more but i am in love with the rower.

Just love all the data that comes out of it, but it can lead you to get competitive with yourself. I admit that but still just have to get over that.

[tropo]

Yes, you can use the holiday to reassess your direction and make changes. It's not always easy to change things when you're right into it and a step back can improve focus. I'm already looking forward to start up again after only one week off so far but I'm thinking about making some major changes.

[TheWalkingMan]

Never heard the term HIIT before. I have all ways called it interval workouts with a short recovery.

In my previous life, I was somewhat serious about running and this was a workout I would do for about a month before the more serious training started.

3 sets of 3 x 300m in 60 seconds or less with a 2 minute recovery. 4 minute break between each set. This was done 3 or 4 times per week for about a month. Great workout. Note: I never did this training session in the heat - Always in the winter and after a month or so of running about 5k, 3 or 4 times a week.

For me the workout did what I thought it would, it increased my endurance and got me ready for more strenuous workouts.

[tropo]

HIIT = High Intensity Interval Training. Interval training can be done at lower intensities too. True high intensity training attempted 3 or 4 times per week would soon result in burnout, both mental and physical.

[poanoi]

I finally made it back to the gym, and loath the dreaded cardio as much as anyone,

but am also fatter than ever.

Unfortunately, tony's dont have a punch bag, this is otherwise a cardio i can put up with

without getting bored to beyond death itself.

Have a question: i would really want to work out every day if possible,

or just rest a day on demand.

I also want to split shoulder from triceps & chest.

day 1 shoulders

day 2 triceps chest

day 3 back and (minor) biceps, i dont dare biceps, i mess up my ribs

day 4 stomach legs

back to day 1, or rest a day if needed, or cardio, if i can find something tolerable

Is this a viable schedule ?

Edited November 27, 2012 by poanoi

[tropo]

There is a punching bag opposite the entrance to Sport World. It's in Tony's Muay Tai Training gym. I'm not sure if members can use that section so you'll have to ask.

[poanoi]

I did, and she said NO.

Strange part is, when there was a tony near soi chayapoon (spelling)

on 3rd rd half between pattaya tai & pattaya klang,

i could use the muay thai bags on the basis i have lifetime membership,

but here i dont.

I thought gym always have a punch bag as part of inventory.

I got the email in case others want to bring this up to tony

info[at]tonydisco[dot]com (mods take note no bot can understand that)

What do you think of my schedule btw ?

Edited November 27, 2012 by poanoi

[tropo]

What do you think of my schedule btw ?

The perfect split doesn't exist, but regarding your plan - there's no need for a separate shoulder day the day before chest and triceps. I would put them all together and add some rest days.

Example:

Day 1: Chest, shoulders and triceps

Day 2: rest

Day 3: Back and biceps

Day 4: Legs & abs.

Day 5: rest

Day 6: start over

That hits everything every 5 days. You could do some cardio on your off days and add another day of rest.

When you start getting stronger rest days are more important and you can vary your split but the above suggestion should be good for several months.

Another variation of the above would be to do chest and arms (biceps & triceps) on one day and back and shoulders on the another.

[poanoi]

I came across this by Manfred Hoeberl

STRONG-ARM ADVICE FOR BEGINNERS

"When I started training, I tried nearly every exercise imaginable," says Manfred. "I usually did four biceps and four triceps exercises for 12-15 sets each bodypart. My arms grew, but not quickly.

"As the gains came slower and slower, I decided to do a little experimenting. I cut back on the number of exercises and sets, and I raised the intensity level. Where before I was doing 12-15 sets, now I was doing six! The results were amazing.

"My arms exploded with new growth. Never before had I experienced such phenemonal results. Yet, I took things one step further: I increased the number of rest days and eventually got to the point where I was working my arms only once per week. And, my biceps and triceps workouts now take only 10 minutes!

"In my hunger for big arms, I thought more work and workouts were the answer. I was wrong. When it comes to massive, unbelievable arms, less is more!"

http://www.kolozzeum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-50989.html

[tropo]

I go out of my way to try and help you by suggesting a split - and not a word of acknowledgment or thanks?

[poanoi]

Sorry,. thanks,

i was exited to re-find/re-member my old ideal Manfred

[Longbow212]

In my experience HIIT is an excellent addition to a balanced exercise routine. There are unique physiological benefits to low intensity cardio in a fasted state and HIIT in a fed state. A mixture of the two yields excellent results in terms of weight loss if all other things are in check such as calorie balance and not sitting for long periods of the day.

[robblok]

In my experience HIIT is an excellent addition to a balanced exercise routine. There are unique physiological benefits to low intensity cardio in a fasted state and HIIT in a fed state. A mixture of the two yields excellent results in terms of weight loss if all other things are in check such as calorie balance and not sitting for long periods of the day.

I should try it more often but my training is already really demanding, i worry if i add 1 session to replace a steady state cardio session i might overload myself. I workout 7 days a week, 4 of those with weights and 3 steady state cardio at MAF to make sure it won't overburden my body.

[Longbow212]

The secret is to make the steady state cardio easy and at a different time of day to hiit/weight/sport. For example first thing in the morning do 30 mins of easy jogging then later in the day do weights and perhaps a short run or circuits that leave you gasping.

Not finishing a workout feeling exhausted leaves many myself in included feeling guilty but you have to realise the purpose of the steady state is only to burn calories and stimulate a physiological change that helps to resist fat gain in the hours that follow. You might even view the steady state as not even a workout.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Longbow212

[tropo]

The secret is to make the steady state cardio easy and at a different time of day to hiit/weight/sport. For example first thing in the morning do 30 mins of easy jogging then later in the day do weights and perhaps a short run or circuits that leave you gasping.

Not finishing a workout feeling exhausted leaves many myself in included feeling guilty but you have to realise the purpose of the steady state is only to burn calories and stimulate a physiological change that helps to resist fat gain in the hours that follow. You might even view the steady state as not even a workout.

We have totally opposite ideas of what constitutes good training.

Feeling good after a workout trumps feeling exhausted. If you push yourself to the point of exhaustion you're more likely to regress than improve. Always leave a little in the tank if possible.

I never feel guilty. Those type of feelings are counter productive and indicate addiction rather than thoughtful training. Don't allow emotions to become involved with your training. You can even turn off days into productive extra rest days. Some people like to think so, but the body is just not a machine.

I detest twice a day training. It's just too much of a good thing no matter how easy you train on one of the sessions. There's still the nutritional preparation that is necessary for a workout and it takes too much of an already short day to do this twice.

Most people over-train rather than under-train.

You say that steady state training can be "not even a workout". Even at MAF, which is a heart rate of only 128 bpm for my age, I'll still have to burn nearly 500 calories on the rowing machine for 30 minutes to maintain that heart rate. That's quite a workout for the whole body on a rowing machine. It's easy for steady state cardio work to interfere with bodybuilding or strength programs. If you train fast enough and keep the pace moving along you're getting sufficient cardio benefit anyway. Fat is controlled mostly by diet, not cardio.