We take your land(farms) your water, your villages, your freedom. Blockade you, starve you, treat you like a third class citizen and are outraged that you dare to resent us. Whats the world coming to.

@Johna, I suggest you re-examine the chronology of events. Even setting aside the missile barrage initiated from Gaza, or the ceasefires they broke, even when the Egyptian president was visiting Gaza there is indeed a bigger picture. Israel for the most part successfully took out Hamas's stocks of longer range missiles supplied from Iran. This follows air strikes which took out an Iranian missile manufacturing site in Sudan. There is already a state of war between Israel and Iran, which at present is being fought through proxies and the missile attacks from Gaza were at the direct behest of Tehran.

As for Israel and her right of self-defense. Well had 500 missiles dropped on London you can be dam_n sure the UK would have responded as Israel did, indeed every sovereign nation would do the same.

http://blogs.telegra...we-have-before/

Benjamin Netanyahu holding dolls of William Hague and Tony Blair

My chronology is correct, your analogy of London being bombed is facile, this conflict could be solved with the creation of a Palestinian state but that would bring an end to Israeli Liebestraum

Of course a vote is due at the UN on 27th November regarding Palestine Nationhood status. Israel are desperate to derail this vote. Indeed a Government spokesperson stated this week that they would 'Topple' the Abbas government if the vote went in Palestine's favour, Israeli democracy in action! Plus of course there is an Israeli election coming up. It is worth noting that 'Operation Cast Lead' also happened in the months before the last Israeli election, a bombardment of Gaza by whoever is the current government seems to be part of an Israeli election campaign. The opposition of course have to cheer and declare that they would be more brutal and effective.

Regarding the timeline of events. http://mondoweiss.ne...ceasefires.html

The link provided states there was a "two-week lull in violence" previous to November 8, 2012.

Sort of missed rocket attacks on October 24th, 25th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, November 4th and 6th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012#October - separate links on page).

I wonder if all the productive effort and materials used to make rockets could improve the life of those in Gaza if it was put to better use. And then they might not have to rebuild all the infrastructure lost in retaliatory attacks.

On the same note, if all the time spent teaching religion and hate was put into useful education, perhaps they might eventually work out that they have spent an average lifetime fighting a losing battle.

And so it goes on, seemingly without an end ever in sight. As long as Palestinians and, in particular, the factions and warlords continue to use Palestine as a means of bludgeoning Israel (and, indirectly, 'the West' and all it stands for) and furthering their own aims rather than the legitimate Palestinian cause of statehood; as long as American Middle East policy is dictated by the power of the Jewish lobby in the US and by the vested interests that so many American (and other countries) corporations have in prolonging, even promoting, conflict as a means of either selling arms or 'rebuilding' war-torn countries such as Iraq; as long as the existence as a legitimate, independent sovereign state of neither Palestine nor Israel are universally recognised by all parties; as long as these circumstances prevail then there can never be peace in the Middle East, only a continuous cycle of ever-increasing violence and blame and counter-blame.

Israel, and its sympathisers, may argue against the political, geographical and historical legitimacy of a Palestinian state but the state of Israel itself was created out of political and historical turmoil, 'terrorism' even (eg against the British in 1948). Of course, both sides can go back in time to justify their respective causes but "if we don't learn from history then we are condemned to repeat it". Let us hope that more recent history (WW2 and all its horrors) will not repeat itself. Israel is becoming increasingly the aggressor in this conflict - its over-reactions far exceed what might be construed as legitimate defence or retaliation and, do not forget, that Israel is still an occupying force. Continuing Palestinian attacks on Israel arise out of increasing frustration at both the absence of any meaningful peace process and the failure of the international community to exert any positive influence.

For the sake of humanity, let there be peace.

We take your land(farms) your water, your villages, your freedom. Blockade you, starve you, treat you like a third class citizen and are outraged that you dare to resent us. Whats the world coming to.

If you go back historically, the land was Canaanite. The Jewish bible has Canaan as a grandson of Noah. If Noah was a Jew, then the Palestinians are recent immigrants. Some say they have Philistine blood, but to all intents and purposes the Philistines disappeared from history.

Israeli elections preceded by attacks on Gaza: 1955, 1961, 1981, 1996, 2009, 2012. Using the blood of civilians to harness support during an election campaign is the antithesis of a civilised democracy. This Israeli action is being taken to punish or delay the Palestinian UN bid, not to mention to harness support for Netanyahu in the forthcoming election.

This link gives some idea of what Palestinians are up against politically, Tutu got it about right in his comments when he visited.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-new-israeli-apartheid-poll-reveals-widespread-jewish-support-for-policy-of-discrimination-against-arab-minority-8223548.html

So, why are the Palestinians lobbing over 500 missiles at Israel, if it is Israel that is the bad guy?

And so it goes on, seemingly without an end ever in sight. As long as Palestinians and, in particular, the factions and warlords continue to use Palestine as a means of bludgeoning Israel (and, indirectly, 'the West' and all it stands for) and furthering their own aims rather than the legitimate Palestinian cause of statehood; as long as American Middle East policy is dictated by the power of the Jewish lobby in the US and by the vested interests that so many American (and other countries) corporations have in prolonging, even promoting, conflict as a means of either selling arms or 'rebuilding' war-torn countries such as Iraq; as long as the existence as a legitimate, independent sovereign state of neither Palestine nor Israel are universally recognised by all parties; as long as these circumstances prevail then there can never be peace in the Middle East, only a continuous cycle of ever-increasing violence and blame and counter-blame.

Israel, and its sympathisers, may argue against the political, geographical and historical legitimacy of a Palestinian state but the state of Israel itself was created out of political and historical turmoil, 'terrorism' even (eg against the British in 1948). Of course, both sides can go back in time to justify their respective causes but "if we don't learn from history then we are condemned to repeat it". Let us hope that more recent history (WW2 and all its horrors) will not repeat itself. Israel is becoming increasingly the aggressor in this conflict - its over-reactions far exceed what might be construed as legitimate defence or retaliation and, do not forget, that Israel is still an occupying force. Continuing Palestinian attacks on Israel arise out of increasing frustration at both the absence of any meaningful peace process and the failure of the international community to exert any positive influence.

For the sake of humanity, let there be peace.

Does seem to run around in circles with no end in sight, especially as there's no proper leadership on both sides.

That said - Israel is not an occupying force in Gaza for some time now. There's more Israeli military presence in the West Bank and the situation there isn't nearly as bad. Also, the rockets attacks coming from Gaza have very little to do with Palestinian frustration over the "absence of any meaningful peace process" - the Hamas doesn't not hold with making formal agreements with Israel, nothing by way of compromise. The frustration you refer to is more relevant to the PA, but so far their efforts are concentrated more on the international diplomacy front (the UN bid).

So, why are the Palestinians lobbing over 500 missiles at Israel, if it is Israel that is the bad guy?

Cos next month the Mayan Calendar finishes it's current cycle. Some people think it's the return of their hero.

So if Palestinian Statehood is on the table, why would the Palestinians start shooting 500 missiles into Israel. Kind of counter productive, isn't it?

Good question.

The bid in the U.N. is about changing Palestine's role in the U.N. from observer entity to nonmember state, a largely SYMBOLIC change. Realistically the only way Palestine (Gaza and West Bank) becomes a state is through a direct negotiation process with Israel.

Israel's reaction to rockets from Gaza is justified by self defense. But will it be effective for Israel in the long run in the much changed political environment in the region? That's another question.

http://www.slate.com...will_leave.html

The fresh round of Israeli reprisals follows an uptick in attacks from militant groups in Gaza. It began last Saturday with the firing of an anti-tank missile at an Israeli army jeep that wounded four soldiers. Several days of intensive rocket fire from Gaza followed. Israel responded by assassinating Ahmed Jabari, the head of Hamas’s military wing in Gaza, and launched an air campaign to try to destroy as many weapons depots as possible.

In 2012, there’s barely been a week when at least a handful of rockets haven’t been fired from Gaza into Israel. Every month or so there is an escalation, like during one six-day period in June when 162 rockets landed in Israel. “No government would tolerate a situation where nearly a fifth of its people live under a constant barrage of rockets and missile fire,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the foreign media on Thursday as he authorized more intensive strikes in Gaza.

Spot on.

The Israelis will probably enjoy a tactical success and Gaza will pay a heavy price, but long term it harly does Israel any strategic favours.

We take your land(farms) your water, your villages, your freedom. Blockade you, starve you, treat you like a third class citizen and are outraged that you dare to resent us. Whats the world coming to.

We're talking about GAZA here. Historically, the most recent change of ownership was when the Jewish state of Israel forcefully kicked out their OWN settlers from Gaza as a gesture of peace.

http://www.cbsnews.c...tch/?id=780650n

Edited November 17, 201213 yr by Jingthing

Israeli elections preceded by attacks on Gaza: 1955, 1961, 1981, 1996, 2009, 2012. Using the blood of civilians to harness support during an election campaign is the antithesis of a civilised democracy. This Israeli action is being taken to punish or delay the Palestinian UN bid, not to mention to harness support for Netanyahu in the forthcoming election.

This link gives some idea of what Palestinians are up against politically, Tutu got it about right in his comments when he visited.

http://www.independe...ty-8223548.html

Israel had 18 general elections so far, the current one will be the 19th (guess that is what you meant by 2012) - so maybe the other 13 times they didn't hold the tradition?

1955 - Gaza was under Egypt's military rule. There was indeed a military operation - lasted about 4 days and was conducted 4 months prior to the elections.

1961, 1981, 1996 - there were military operations which might be tied to election time, but not in Gaza,

The effectiveness of military operations as vote getters is somewhat doubtful, if memory serves, last couple of times you refer to the government actually lost the elections.

The Hamas got very little to do with the PA UN bid, they are not really in favor of bargaining or acknowledging Israel. Tying it all together doesn't make it true - there is no united Palestinian position on this issue.

The link provided might bear on the political climate within Israel, but the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. In addition, you will find similar attitudes toward Israelis (well, Jews, actually, Arab Israeli citizens are another issue) in poles conducted amongst Palestinians. Mutual hatred is one of the cornerstones of this conflict.

So if Palestinian Statehood is on the table, why would the Palestinians start shooting 500 missiles into Israel. Kind of counter productive, isn't it?

Not necessarily. Hamas are against the Palestinian authority (sic) statehood bid, the reasons for this may have something to do with pressure being brought to bear on Hamas to join such an entity and in doing so their leaders may become legally accountable for their actions at the Hague. Though I will add that I don't know whether such accountability extends to those with observer status such as the Vatican, perish the thought.

Thanks. It seems a little backwards on their part, but makes sense.

1. Though Britain responded strongly with targeted killings n Ireland I don't remember them ever using officially sanctioned collective 100-1 punishment (read murder) of men women and (many many ) children at any time. This however is more or less stated policy of Israel and must be never be accepted by the world at large......which it outrageously IS by the US. It is not acceptable for Hamas to be sending these things off. It is an act of utter frustration from a castrated people in resction to excesses whereas the Israeli action is extremely heavy and cold and calculated. 2. I keep hearing about Iran and the "evidence" of arms supplies. I would find it suicidal for Iran to do this. The sharpest pencil on this, Zbigniew Brzezinski, says Iran is a "rational nation". They are not stupid or suicidal. I don't believe for a minute they do supply missiles, most of which of course are six foot lumps of flying pipe. 3. Feel sorry for the very large minority of decent Israelis who detest their own government's actions as much as I do. I had a friend back in the UK named Yishay who had been a paratrooper there. He couldn't stand it a day longer and left for good.

I agree with this. If Iran was supplying arms to the Palistinians then where is the evidence of them being used. What ? Are the Iranians supplying pipe bombs and missiles to them ? The kind that alot of young lads try thier hand at making as youngsters. The simply fact of the matter is that nobody is supply arms to the Palistinians.

Same evidence the US put forward for WMD - all bullshit. I am sure there are quite a few members here who know Iranians and I am one of them. They are some of the most polite fun loving people I have ever met and a generally high standard of living and education. The 1983 shooting down of a civilian aircraft by the US Navy and they did not retaliate. They never even got an apology. Iran right now is accepting any currency for oil and are not worried about having to accept USD. Good on them. In my opinion, they would not supply arms or rockets to Palestine, Hamas or any other close ally and they are not Arabs. Don't ever offend an Iranian by calling him part of the Arab community. Israel has been subjected through history to more floggings than any other nation. Israeli's are targeted globally. The true nature of the conflict may probably never be known, but for sure, hailing rockets on civilians no matter who fired first, will receive retaliation. Who is right or wrong? I have no idea as the waters continue to be muddied by deliberate misinformation. I can only feel for the innocents on both sides who are victims of these conflicts, otherwise referred to as collateral damage.

Someone said that the ratio of Palestinians killed compared to Israeli's, doesn't seem right.

If Hamas demands 250 prisoners for 1 Israeli prisoner, then they have set the ratio of worth...they should remember that.

Wow, some of the statements offered are a crazen attempt to deceive. Let's have a look shall we?

1. The simply fact of the matter is that nobody is supply arms to the Palistinians.

Really? Then you need to get Hamas, Iran and the PLA to fall in line with your statement. All have made public statements that there is indeed support, both in money and arms. The Israelis have intercepted naval shipments of arms going from Iran to to Hamas.

If no one is supplying arms to Hamas, how then does Hamas have Iranian, North Korean and Chinese sourced weapons? Are they manna from the sky?

2. Same evidence the US put forward for WMD - all bullshit.

Nope. Vey different. Why would Hamas have been in such a tizzy when its arms supplier in the Sudan was eliminated?

Why would Mr. Abbas the Fatah dictator make claims about Iran's support of Hamas?

Do you remember the 2009 arms seizure in Thailand? Thai authorities confiscated 35 tons of weapons, including missiles and explosives .A Russian plane was seized during a refueling stop in Bangkok on is way from North Korea to Iran. The arms were consistent with those used by Hamas and Hizbollah.

3. I am sure there are quite a few members here who know Iranians and I am one of them. They are some of the most polite fun loving people

I have ever met and a generally high standard of living and education.

You are referring to the Iranians that have fled or emigrated from Iran. If they were having a grand time in Iran, they would have stayed where they were. Do you honestly expect people to believe that Iran, a country without an open educational system, where the Immans control social policy and education, where Sharia law prevails and where most people do not get past secondary education is this utopia you proclaim? Poverty and unemployment is the norm, not a high standard of living. It is why the Iranian people are restless.

3. Iran right now is accepting any currency for oil and are not worried about having to accept USD. Good on them.

The problem that the Iranians have is that the Indian clients are not paying their bills in a timely manner. The North and South Koreans and the Chinese have really forced down the price and Iran is barely covering its production costs. In plain language, it's supposed friends are taking advantage of Iran. The Iranian people do however resent the large flow of money from Iran to various groups including Hamas. This is money that should be invested in the Iranian nation.

4. In my opinion, they would not supply arms or rockets to Palestine, Hamas or any other close ally and they are not Arabs.

Brilliant logc. Laughable too. The statement speaks for itself and need not be countered because it is assinine.

Someone said that the ratio of Palestinians killed compared to Israeli's, doesn't seem right.

If Hamas demands 250 prisoners for 1 Israeli prisoner, then they have set the ratio of worth...they should remember that.

An absolutely nonsense post. How many Israeli prisoners are held by Hamas? And how many Palestinian prisoners,( including children, some kept in chains with no access to lawyers), are held by Israel? You make an absolutely ridiculous analogy, which illustrates the depth of ignorance and bigotry held by the cheerleaders of Israel.

It's all very simple really.

You fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel and suffer the consequences.

Simple choice.

The trouble is it's not only YOU who suffer the consequences. It is anyone who happens to live in

Gaza.

Make no bones about it. The Israeli policy is a deterrent of extreme heavy handed collective punishment, and the record is on a 100-1 basis. Thing is it's not just a normal deterrent. It's a deterrent to anyone who has the the temerity to object to their continuing abusive MO.

Similarly how could Iran....a "rational nation" remember....dare to have a nuclear deterrent of their own (that's if they're not in fact simply following American advice during the loathsome Shah's reign of terror to put nuclear power in place because oil won't last forever).

We take your land(farms) your water, your villages, your freedom. Blockade you, starve you, treat you like a third class citizen and are outraged that you dare to resent us. Whats the world coming to.

We're talking about GAZA here. Historically, the most recent change of ownership was when the Jewish state of Israel forcefully kicked out their OWN settlers from Gaza as a gesture of peace.

http://www.cbsnews.c...tch/?id=780650n

Yes, Israel removed the settlers from Gaza, but then using the Gaza blockade to limit the supply of goods into Gaza as a political tool to try & undermine support for Hamas. A move that would not encourage positive attitude by some of the population in Gaza to Israel.

http://www.guardian....orie-limit-gaza

Edited November 18, 201213 yr by Scott

Nobody is saying that the Palestinian people in Gaza don't have very serious and legitimate objections with Israeli policy but that doesn't mean their own leadership HAMAS which they unfortunately elected isn't a terrorist organization either.

We take your land(farms) your water, your villages, your freedom. Blockade you, starve you, treat you like a third class citizen and are outraged that you dare to resent us. Whats the world coming to.

We're talking about GAZA here. Historically, the most recent change of ownership was when the Jewish state of Israel forcefully kicked out their OWN settlers from Gaza as a gesture of peace.

http://www.cbsnews.c...tch/?id=780650n

Yes, Israel removed the settlers from Gaza, but then using the Gaza blockade to limit the supply of goods into Gaza as a political tool to try & undermine support for Hamas. A move that would not encourage positive attitude by some of the population in Gaza to Israel.

http://www.guardian....orie-limit-gaza

The so-called blockade is/was effectively upheld by Egypt as well, something that seems to slip by each time this comes up. Article fails to mention that Hamas routinely refuses to deal with Israel regarding these matters, even at the price of hurting it's own people. For example, the low fuel reserves situation a while back, which was utter folly.

http://www.jpost.com...d=292313&R=R101

Edited November 18, 201213 yr by Scott

Fortunately, you and those that share your views have little say in such matters. I use the term fortunate as you do not consider the barrage of deadly missiles against Israel a crime against humanity, nor do you seem to consider the Hamas strategy of locating its missile batteries in schools, hospitals and residential buildings as a crime against humanity. At least you didn't offer the usual justification for the Hamas attacks as resistance against an occupation. Israel has no settlements in Gaza, and it maintains a sovereign border.

Edited November 18, 201213 yr by Scott
Deleted quote edited out

A Jews speak out.

A Jews speak out.

...

Not a Jew speaks out. Finkelstein specifically interviewed on Russian pro-Iranian television network speaks out.

For those who are not aware of his background:

The Anti-Defamation League has described Finkelstein as an "obsessive anti-Zionist" filled with "vitriolic hatred of Zionism and Israel."^[76] On being called an anti-Zionist Finkelstein has said: "It's a superficial term. I am opposed to any state with an ethnic character, not only to Israel."

wiki

No issue with hearing Finkelstein's (predictable) reaction to the Gaza escalation at all, but really to describe him as "a Jew" as if that means anything or is any way REPRESENTATIVE of global Jews reaction to current events in Israel is really absurd. As Haaretz has reported, the actual FACTUAL and representative reaction of global Jews is OVERWHELMING support of Israel's right to defend itself against rockets from Gaza. There are of course anti-Zionist Jews but they happen to be a small minority.

Edited November 18, 201213 yr by Jingthing

A Jews speak out.

This may come as a surprise to you, but Judaism is a religious based belief. There are Indians, Russians French etc. jews. The same applies to the followers of Christianity. When Jimmy Carter, a devout Christian voices his opinion, does this mean he speaks on behalf of the USA? In this specific case, the person interviewed on the Iranian channel is hardly an adherent of the Jewish faith, anymore than the kapos of the concentration camps were religious agents or Timothy McVeigh was a representative of Christian beliefs.

Pictures & footage being released on the news is quite depressing/terrible

I see the Israelis are following the American and Syrian model and targeting buildings hosting international media in Gaza.

Nice one. You don't want people reporting the other side, do you?

Arab media building.

Yes, and Sky News. Your point?

A lot of off-topic baiting posts have been deleted. Continue with inflammatory posts which DO NOT express an opinion, but only act to bait other members and you will find yourself suspended.

But why Hamas send homemade rocket to Israel, what is the reason?