Gaza Crisis: Un's Ban Calls For Ceasefire After Israeli Airstrike Kills Civilians

[Pakboong]

The Israeli penchant for deception when combined with Palestinian stupidity and incompetence, makes the truth very hard to find.

[mania]

Thank you for explaining why there is no blockade Goods and material enter Gaza.

You have misunderstood my post

[simple1]

Checkpoints and open borders exist where and when violent conflict is absent.

Note that there are no such limitations on the West Bank, for example.

Egypt enforces pretty much the same regulations on their side of the border with Gaza, even under the leadership of the current government. And they're not even in direct conflict with the Hamas....

Yes I basically agree with that & gave examples such as the TSA

But to limit an amount of food or types of foods etc. Does that not seem a bit of an over reach?

It appears more of a economic control.

Perhaps more accurately to undermine support for Hamas within the population

[simple1]

Do not know why some posters are still minimising the relevance of the blockade, no matter what form it takes.

There is a good analysis on the current impasse and the possibility of future violence even if a cease fire is agreed at the URL below. The following quote summaries, "one primary obstacle is Israeli and U.S. opposition to Palestinian reconciliation or anything that might be seen as strengthening Hamas. This self-defeating policy has been disastrous for Palestinians and Israelis alike as well as a spectacular failure

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/20/opinion/elgindy-gaza/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

[Scott]

I don't know that posters are minimizing the blockade, because there have been numerous posts concerning the blockade removed. This article is about the UN's call for a ceasefire and the discussion is generally being limited to the topic. Hopefully, there will be some updates that will provide a broader scope of discussion on the topic.

[Steely Dan]

Again we have the world's most incompetent terrorists suffering on the short (long) end of a 30+ to 1 kill ratio. Any thinking man or woman would never consider such a ridiculous stat as a serious matter. Whatever has gone on, silly logic such as human shields and such are simply to simple to consider.

This matter, as in the past, when put to the who benefits test, does not stand up in the most basic of terms. I don't know what is going on, I only know what we think is going on is not the case. This would be a perfect opportunity for Iran go give the Palestinans their hardware to test it under real combat conditions but no such hardware is ever involved. Why not? Most consider Hamas to be an Iranian proxy. Not much of a proxy if the current situation is taken at face value.

What we are actually sure of is that we are not sure of anything.

Let's have a little fact check here shall we. First of all Iran do supply Hamas, Hamas have indeed admitted as much. As for their incompetence, I would suggest that they do have an improved arsenal as witnessed by missiles landing in the vicinity of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, however Iron Dome intercepts about 90% of the missiles thought to be a threat. It is actually too bad for Gaza's residents that they have no Iron Dome, seeing as Hamas hit their own with friendly fire twice as often as they hit the Israelis. Still, every death is a winner of sort as long as the media follow the narrative.

http://frontpagemag....y-hit-israelis/

Poor little Mahmood Sadallah, I expect the press will be along soon to record this human tragedy.

This incident was reported on CNN if I remember correctly sometime yesterday. As you said, with no facetiousness on my part "Poor little Mahmood Sadallah" As quoted from the anti Islamic web media source:

Blogger Elder of Ziyon notes, “CNN here does not admit that they reported the accusation as fact and still pretends that there is still a good chance that the child and neighbor were killed by an Israeli airstrike. Slightly more accurate; but no indication of regret for a slander.”

You remember incorrectly. An airstrike is not a missile strike, thus giving the false impression the boy died in an Israeli airstrike as oppose to a Hamas missile strike. Note also that no mainstream news has reported on the ratio of friendly fire casualties to 'enemy' casualties resulting from Hamas rockets attacks.

As for the BBC, you gave their feeble excuse for the last piece of mis-reporting, but they are coming thick and fast. The following is a most disgusting piece of blood libel with casualty pictures lifted from Syria and attributed to Israeli action in Gaza. It's funny how often the BBC fails to do even the most rudimentary of fact checking and how all the so called mistakes are in the same direction.

http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-jon-donnison-tweets-malicious-fauxtography/

Just for once I will show the mis-attributed picture just to show what a pro-Islamist joke the BBC has become.

[simple1]

There is from time to time inaccurate reporting will happen, maybe deliberately, indeed in any conflict. However, arguing over the specifics of 1/2 deaths is as previously mentioned; pathetic

EDIT: no doubt the mods will delete your post & my response as being off topic.

Edited November 21, 2012 by simple1

[Scott]

Enough. Now back on the topic.

[coma]

Fox News.

Are Gaza strikes a dress rehearsal for potential Israeli assault on Iran?

Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz2Cogv1f4F

Is Gaza just a training grund for the next Iran war?

No!

[awayego]

"Does seem to run around in circles with no end in sight, especially as there's no proper leadership on both sides.

That said - Israel is not an occupying force in Gaza for some time now. There's more Israeli military presence in the West Bank and the situation there isn't nearly as bad. Also, the rockets attacks coming from Gaza have very little to do with Palestinian frustration over the "absence of any meaningful peace process" - the Hamas doesn't not hold with making formal agreements with Israel, nothing by way of compromise. The frustration you refer to is more relevant to the PA, but so far their efforts are concentrated more on the international diplomacy front (the UN bid)." - Morch

In reply to Morch, I do understand that it is the West Bank that is still under Israeli occupation and not Gaza. However, my reference to occupation was in the broader context of any possible Israel/Palestine settlement. One might argue that Israel's blockade is, in fact, a de facto form of occupation by virtue of the fact that Israel determines who/what has access to Gaza by sea. Regardless, I can't agree that Hamas has no intention of ever recognising the state of Israel - I think you'll find that even Hamas may well regard that as negotiable if a comprehensive permanent settlement was on the table. Even they must realise that not to do so must inevitably rule out any possibility of a settlement now or in the future.

The problem of course remains that each side has pre-conditions to any negotiations which in themselves stop any possibility of such negotiations taking place.It is entirely fruitless to blame or justify the actions of one side or the other in this - it merely perpetuates justification for conflict and that is a completely negative approach.

I have to put my neck on the block and say that my sympathies are with the Palestinians and the PA but, that said, they have not been well served by the actions and motives of Hamas. As long as they continue to allow Hamas to determine policy towards Israel then there can be little hope of progress towards a peaceful settlement.

One thing Hamas has succeeded in doing, however, and this may well be their prime motivation, is to put the Palestine/Israel situation firmly back on the front page of the world's press and restored the political spotlight. Things are moving again, although whether that will be in a positive direction or not remains to be seen. Let us hope so.

[Jingthing]

Hamas is not one person. There are factions. The majority of those in power in Hamas have no intention of ever recognizing Israel and their CHARTER is very clear on that point. Let's see them change their charter. How about that? There is a reason they are categorized as a terrorist organization by a number of countries.

I do agree it is simply wrong to put all of the blame on any one side of this conflict, and there are at least three sides to talk about. People can argue about which side is "more" to blame ad nauseum; does it really matter and does that really bring peace any closer?

Also the most important problem in the Middle East today is not the Israel-Palestinian conflict, not even close!

Also no Gaza is not occupied. You're either occupied or not, like being pregnant.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[Morch]

A bus exploded in central Tel Aviv on Wednesday, wounding at least 15 people, three of them seriously.

It was not immediately clear what caused the blast on the corner of Shaul Hamelech and Henrietta Szold Streets, but Israel Police suspect it was a terror attack.

Large police forces were deployed to the area, and a chase was opened after the suspected terrorist. Eyewitnesses say they saw a terrorist plant an explosive and run away.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/bus-explodes-in-tel-aviv-at-least-10-wounded-police-suspect-terror-attack-1.479535

[Pakboong]

The Israeli penchant for deception when combined with Palestinian stupidity and incompetence, makes the truth very hard to find.

It is my opinion Israelis don't have any special "penchant" for deception any different than any other country on earth including the Palestinians if they were a nation. Nations act in their own self interest. Period.

The Mossad motto suggests otherwise.

[Chicog]

I'm sure this is a direction consequence of recent events. Will more follow? iron Dome isn't much use here.

TEL AVIV, Nov 21 (Reuters) - An explosion hit a bus in the heart of Tel Aviv on Wednesday, wounding at least 10 people in what officials said was a terrorist attack.

The blast shattered windows on the bus, which was driving on a street that runs alongside Israel's defence headquarters. Israel's ambulance service said three of the wounded were in a moderate-to-serious condition.

"A bomb exploded on a bus in central Tel Aviv. This was a terrorist attack. Most of the injured suffered only mild injuries," said Ofir Gendelman, a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

[Samuimike1]

Bomb exploded in Tel Aviv.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

[coma]

Bomb exploded in Tel Aviv.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20425352

A rather amatuer and largely ineffective attempt at terrorsim I must say. They [ hamas ?] go through all the hassle of getting an operator into that position to carry out an attack in the heart of Tel Aviv and the device goes off like a fire bunger the Thais use during Loy Krathong. More to this story me thinks ?

[Steely Dan]

Bomb exploded in Tel Aviv.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20425352

The Israelis try their best to avoid civilian casualties taking measures including dropping of leaflets to give advanced warning, Hamas aim almost exclusively at civilians and greet Israeli deaths or injuries with celebratory gunfire, as has happened with the bus bombing.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Scott]

Conspiracy theory posts have been deleted as well as replies.

[lemoncake]

It isn't rocket science (no pun intended). If a foreign country was given land in Australia by the UN..then it progressively expanded its holdings on the same scale as is happening in Israel / Palestine ... I expect a few Aussies would be a tad pissed off and might even throw a few rocks at them. Israel can do no wrong as long as the west / Islam divide is maintained.

I am unable to upload a map showing Israeli expansion since 1946 but it makes chilling viewing. Just do a Google search on Israeli expansion and you will see what I mean.

only Gaza is not occupied and terrorism increased since it was given back to Palestinians yet instead of developing, they continued with the same terror acts.

Yes you can be pissed off, but that does not change anything, perhaps time to think "outside the square" and actually do something productive with what you got.

No point picking a fight with some where you know you can not win.

If and i emphasize IF Palestinians did build an economy and did concentrate on developing, i have no doubt Israel will not have any support from anyone, but when they have spent past century on ONLY terrorism its hard to support them, though with nice fiction movies and propaganda it seems to work for some.

If Israel was as savage as some like to believe, the death toll would be thousands PER DAY and multiplying, just look at Syria

We are fed a story by the media .... both sides... as we know the first casualty in war is the truth. I think it is incredibly naive of you to say by inference that Israel has 'developed' whilst the Palestinians have not. If the west were to immediately pull all aide to Israel... and Include military as well as everything else...lets see how long it would stay viable. Even a cursory glance at the statistics for just the US will show you that Israel soaks up by far the most foreign aid by America to any other nation...and that is just from America. If the UN had decided to give Israel its 'homeland' in say Greenland, or Chile, or anywhere else for the matter the whole middle east issue would be a non event. However, because some ancient manuscript dug up out of the desert claims that this patch of mother Earth is theirs by divine right, we have what we have. But for god's sake don't go on about how wonderfully developed Israel is as if they have done it on their own ... cos they haven't.

Why would UN give land in Chile for people who come from the middle east with deep historic roots of over 5000 years?

Yes America aids Israel, BUT it is conditional aid where 80% is to be spend back in US.

You also seem to forget that Israel has one of the strongest economy's in the world and is center of innovations across all fields, that is certainly not a result of US aid.

Israel ranks 17th among 187 world nations on the UN's Human Development Index, which places it in the category of "Very Highly Developed".

The major industrial sectors include metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment. Israel diamond industry is one of the world's centers for diamond cuttingand polishing.

Israel is a world leader in software, telecommunication and semiconductors development

Furthermore, Palestinians have been living off the aid for years, just in the past 4 years they received over $10 billion.

Now, lets put that aside, Israel has US to aid Israel, what is stopping all the arabs to aid Palestinians?

All the taxes Israel collects for them and taxes collected from arab workers in Israel, all goes to Palestinians, and yet they have done very little to build an economy.

Gaza was given back 100% and in return, all they have been doing is spending money on rockets and bombs.

If Hamas has enough money to build kilometers long tunnels to smuggle weapons, no doubt they can spend some money to build bomb shelters and warning system to warn its citizens since they have no desire to make peace and stop the rockets.

[Steely Dan]

Bomb exploded in Tel Aviv.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20425352

A rather amatuer and largely ineffective attempt at terrorsim I must say. They [ hamas ?] go through all the hassle of getting an operator into that position to carry out an attack in the heart of Tel Aviv and the device goes off like a fire bunger the Thais use during Loy Krathong. More to this story me thinks ?

Apparently they have caught the bomber, who was promptly lynched and the dead body was dragged along the street tied to the back of a motorbike...no...wait...I must be thinking of somewhere else like Gaza, though had it been the case it would undoubtedly have been front page news with the MSM.

[Jingthing]

Palestinian tactics, whether Hamas with their Iranian missiles clearly allowed in by Egypt ... or Fatah, are not working. Forgetting Israel's faults for a moment, why don't the Palestinians change their tactics, big time?

This opinion piece may sound flippant and perhaps it is, but personally I think he is really on to something.

First and foremost, if they'd been a nonviolent movement, they'd have had their state 20 years ago. No understanding at all of either the Jewish or the American conscience, which resists "resistance" at all costs but melts at the first sight of a person standing before a tank holding a rose.

...

None of this is meant as a defense of Israeli leadership. They're schmucks, too, or worse. So I don't really like either side very much, in terms of their leaders I mean, which is why I don't write about this very often. But I do know that if Palestinians moved to nonviolence and undertook a smart campaign to improve their image here, they'd turn things around on a dime. Israel will ultimately do what America tells it to do, and America will become more sympathetic to the Palestinians when the Palestinians become more sympathetic.

http://www.thedailyb...-never-win.html

OK, yes this does means the Palestinians will have to drop the demand for the destruction of Israel and unlimited right of return into Israel completely. That combined with the roses, change could be QUICK.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[folium]

It isn't rocket science (no pun intended). If a foreign country was given land in Australia by the UN..then it progressively expanded its holdings on the same scale as is happening in Israel / Palestine ... I expect a few Aussies would be a tad pissed off and might even throw a few rocks at them. Israel can do no wrong as long as the west / Islam divide is maintained.

I am unable to upload a map showing Israeli expansion since 1946 but it makes chilling viewing. Just do a Google search on Israeli expansion and you will see what I mean.

only Gaza is not occupied and terrorism increased since it was given back to Palestinians yet instead of developing, they continued with the same terror acts.

Yes you can be pissed off, but that does not change anything, perhaps time to think "outside the square" and actually do something productive with what you got.

No point picking a fight with some where you know you can not win.

If and i emphasize IF Palestinians did build an economy and did concentrate on developing, i have no doubt Israel will not have any support from anyone, but when they have spent past century on ONLY terrorism its hard to support them, though with nice fiction movies and propaganda it seems to work for some.

If Israel was as savage as some like to believe, the death toll would be thousands PER DAY and multiplying, just look at Syria

We are fed a story by the media .... both sides... as we know the first casualty in war is the truth. I think it is incredibly naive of you to say by inference that Israel has 'developed' whilst the Palestinians have not. If the west were to immediately pull all aide to Israel... and Include military as well as everything else...lets see how long it would stay viable. Even a cursory glance at the statistics for just the US will show you that Israel soaks up by far the most foreign aid by America to any other nation...and that is just from America. If the UN had decided to give Israel its 'homeland' in say Greenland, or Chile, or anywhere else for the matter the whole middle east issue would be a non event. However, because some ancient manuscript dug up out of the desert claims that this patch of mother Earth is theirs by divine right, we have what we have. But for god's sake don't go on about how wonderfully developed Israel is as if they have done it on their own ... cos they haven't.

Why would UN give land in Chile for people who come from the middle east with deep historic roots of over 5000 years?

Rightly or wrongly it was the British who were responsible for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine as per the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The UN did not exist then.

The World Zionist Council did vote in favour though of an earlier British offer to take a chunk of British East Africa (now Uganda/Kenya), but then turned it down 2 years later as neither the indigenous wildlife nor population were deemed to be very hospitable. Australia was another considered option by the British, as was Cyprus.

Tragically Himmler considered deporting all European Jews to Madagascar after the fall of France freed up French colonies but the plan was dropped as the continuing presence of the Royal Navy would have made such transfers impossible to achieve.

Edited November 21, 2012 by folium

[Jingthing]

Zionism wasn't exactly a movement with anywhere near majority Jewish (not to mention non-Jewish) support until the holocaust. The movement of course in Israel existed for a long time before WW2 but it wasn't really headed towards a nation state until then. I find it hard to believe any location but Israel would have ever been acceptable. Jews have been saying Next Year in Jerusalem for centuries, not Next Year in Valparaiso. In any case, like it or not, it is done, and Israel exists.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[Meetoo]

IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school.

Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all.

Nothing in that part of the world ever gels and it never will ... 2 malicious Evils at each others throats and who could at this point bring on a real 3rd world war ,, I think this situation is very scary as they are at each others necks with super power USA clearly and vocally supporting Israel who most of the ..... "fill in the dashes" ...absolutely hate , despise and want to obliterate ... Not a pretty picture this is at all ...

[Jingthing]

The Israel-Palestinian conflict has very little chance of sparking a world war. Iran vs. America, yes that is a threat.

[Morch]

A ceasefire between Hamas and Israel has been agreed and is to be announced within hours, according to a Palestinian official. On Tuesday night, Hamas official Ayman Taha said an Egyptian-brokered truce had been finalised and would take effect from 10pm. But a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the announcement was premature.

http://news.sky.com/story/1014294/gaza-israel-and-hamas-agree-to-a-ceasefire

Not sure if how solid is this, and there's still time for things to go wrong, as they so often do.

Local media on both sides had another take on how things will go - basically that Clinton will ask everyone to behave, Israel will accept and stop the attacks, then (willingly or under Egyptian pressure, not clear) the Hamas and Islamic Jihad will do the same. A more comprehensive agreement to be reached later on. Again, hard to judge how serious are these reports.

Re going-to-war-for-votes: Public opinion in Israel seems to be not overly supportive of a ceasefire under current conditions and according to this outline. If it goes through, might be some political price for decisions made. Two months are a lot of time in the Middle East, though... Palestinian public sees such an outcome as a major victory, what with no ground invasion and Hamas pumping some propaganda about downed Israeli aircrafts, Israeli casualties and direct hits. Guess some sane people on both sides also appreciate the chance for not having it all out this time around.

[Jingthing]

OK. I wonder what percentage of the Hamas rocket capability and military infrastructure that Israel has managed to destroy before this cease fire, assuming it actually goes ahead. If the Palestinian public sees this as a victory in the event that Israel has reached most of that disabling goal, that seems a fair compromise. That is. IF.

Even if "successful" sounds like another temporary band-aid until the next time.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[chooka]

A ceasefire between Hamas and Israel has been agreed and is to be announced within hours, according to a Palestinian official. On Tuesday night, Hamas official Ayman Taha said an Egyptian-brokered truce had been finalised and would take effect from 10pm. But a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the announcement was premature.

http://news.sky.com/...-to-a-ceasefire

Not sure if how solid is this, and there's still time for things to go wrong, as they so often do.

Local media on both sides had another take on how things will go - basically that Clinton will ask everyone to behave, Israel will accept and stop the attacks, then (willingly or under Egyptian pressure, not clear) the Hamas and Islamic Jihad will do the same. A more comprehensive agreement to be reached later on. Again, hard to judge how serious are these reports.

Re going-to-war-for-votes: Public opinion in Israel seems to be not overly supportive of a ceasefire under current conditions and according to this outline. If it goes through, might be some political price for decisions made. Two months are a lot of time in the Middle East, though... Palestinian public sees such an outcome as a major victory, what with no ground invasion and Hamas pumping some propaganda about downed Israeli aircrafts, Israeli casualties and direct hits. Guess some sane people on both sides also appreciate the chance for not having it all out this time around.

Foreign Minister Mohammed Kamel Amr of Egypt, which brokered the ceasefire after marathon talks, announced the cessation of hostilities at a joint news conference in Cairo with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The accord, a copy of which was obtained by AFP, calls on Israel to "stop all hostilities... in the land, sea and air including incursions and targeting of individuals

Edited November 21, 2012 by chooka

[softgeorge]

A ceasefire between Hamas and Israel has been agreed and is to be announced within hours, according to a Palestinian official. On Tuesday night, Hamas official Ayman Taha said an Egyptian-brokered truce had been finalised and would take effect from 10pm. But a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the announcement was premature.

http://news.sky.com/...-to-a-ceasefire

Not sure if how solid is this, and there's still time for things to go wrong, as they so often do.

Local media on both sides had another take on how things will go - basically that Clinton will ask everyone to behave, Israel will accept and stop the attacks, then (willingly or under Egyptian pressure, not clear) the Hamas and Islamic Jihad will do the same. A more comprehensive agreement to be reached later on. Again, hard to judge how serious are these reports.

Re going-to-war-for-votes: Public opinion in Israel seems to be not overly supportive of a ceasefire under current conditions and according to this outline. If it goes through, might be some political price for decisions made. Two months are a lot of time in the Middle East, though... Palestinian public sees such an outcome as a major victory, what with no ground invasion and Hamas pumping some propaganda about downed Israeli aircrafts, Israeli casualties and direct hits. Guess some sane people on both sides also appreciate the chance for not having it all out this time around.

Foreign Minister Mohammed Kamel Amr of Egypt, which brokered the ceasefire after marathon talks, announced the cessation of hostilities at a joint news conference in Cairo with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The accord, a copy of which was obtained by AFP, calls on Israel to "stop all hostilities... in the land, sea and air including incursions and targeting of individuals

The Palistinians are celebrating and claiming victory against Israel.

[Jingthing]

The Egypt factor in this deal is very interesting. As it was Egypt which allowed the more dangerous Iranian built weapons to enter Gaza and it is Egypt who is now promising to stop the entry of such weapons in future. Egypt is putting its neck out on this and its new Islamist government will be more powerful if it succeeds. Personally I don't believe they will stop those weapons which is a different thing than hoping that they do.

As far as any "victory" goes it seems to me the only real significant victories from all this:

Iron Dome has proven quite effective

All the noise about Obama not having Israel's back from the right wing in Israel and America was total bunk (think what that means regarding Iran)

Netanyahu politically

Most significantly, Hamas is now massively more relevant than Fatah among the Palestinians

As far as bringing the Palestinians closer to statehood which some factions there want, this conflict doesn't move that forward at all.

As far as destroying Israel, which some factions there want, it's a mixed bag. Israel is getting more isolated (from Egypt and Turkey) and the American connection is more important than ever. But the American connection isn't going anywhere; it will be stronger than ever for Israel.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Jingthing