Chicog Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Joy stick warriors against Firecracker warrios, game over! 5 to 167 for the joy stick warrios. I don't think 172 deaths is something about which to make smug remarks. Do you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The Hamasniks among the people of Gaza are celebrating. Hell, they like to celebrate so hard that one got killed and three wounded just from the happy Hamas party shooting indiscriminately in the air! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hamas has a history of launching missile and rocket barrages when its popularity wanes. Amsrch 2012: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/03/20/palestinians-punish-hamas-not-shooting-rockets-israel/ In respect to the above Palestinian polling, Iran's media had a different but similar interpretation http://www.abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=152761 The characteristic was evident even back in 2009; Before Israel’s Invasion, Hamas Popularity Was Waning Among Its Neighbors -- Even in Gaza Itsel fby Richard Wike, Associate Director, Pew Global Attitudes Project January 8, 2009 http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1075/before-israels-invasion-hamas-popularity-was-waning-among-its-neighbors-even-in-gaza-itself Ok, enough links from media sources that cannot be accused of Israeli bias. However, I think it cannot be denied that a war serves to help unite the warring factions in Gaza against a common enemy: Israel. Time and time again, whenever Fatah has inched closer to some sort of agreement in the peace process, Hamas starts launching rockets. The biggest loser in all of this? Turkey. It's rival, Egypt comes out as the hero for "brokering" a truce. Turkey has invested heavily in the Palestinian cause, all but severing diplomatic relations with Israel. And what does it have to show for its efforts? A mess with Syria, limited support from the arab world in its Syrian peace plan, and an even more diminished perception of its strategic role in the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The Hamasniks among the people of Gaza are celebrating. Hell, they like to celebrate so hard that one got killed and three wounded just from the happy Hamas party shooting indiscriminately in the air! If one dies from 'celebratory fire' are they considered to have been martyred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Celebratory fire is often used as an excuse to settle a lot of scores in the Middle East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Ok, an initial summary of winners and losers. Israeli population; Losers, missiles still sporadically being fired in spite of a so called ceasefire. Their government has bowed to international pressure and didn't finish the job off properly, which needed a ground invasion to stop the rockets effectively. Palestinian population; Losers, They have been clobbered by Israel and Hamas are now even more solidly in control of Gaza. This means privations due to the tyrannical rule of Hamas, who would rather keep their people oppressed with Israel used as a scapegoat to divert attention from Hamas criminals. Israeli government; Jury still out. Iron dome was a big success, but having Egypt as the monitor of a ceasefire is putting the fox in charge of the henhouse. Muslim Brotherhood; Winners, They have been billed as peacemakers, when in reality they took the role Washington projected for them with U.S. aid used as a stick. Iran; Losers. They will be furious if Hamas have changed allegences back to the Sunni sponsors of Qatar, this may make Lebanon their only border from which to directly attack Israel from. The above may change with time and I will be interested in two things. Firstly how Iran reacts, secondly how effectively Egypt polices borders with Gaza to prevent arms being smuggled in. I suspect egg on Washington's face and the same for the Israeli government soon enough, but with Hamas's most effective weapon being western bed wetters and useful idiots perhaps this farce needs to blow up before steps are taken which should have already been here and now. I think dubbing sides as "winners" or "losers" depends on time perspective. Most of what you stated is probably holds for the short term - not so sure if the implications of long term effects are quite the same. The Israeli population - right now doesn't seem rockets are being fired from Gaza, not sure what you refer to. As to how long it will last... wouldn't put any money on it. Having the Israeli government not living up to their expectations might make the Israelis vote for another in the upcoming elections - so possibly a gain, depends on one's political views. Getting the job done is a slogan - what you get is a temporary respite, with a diplomatic price tag (not to mention casualties). Palestinian population - took a beating, but compared to the last round and the fears of a ground invasion, the hits they took and damage done aren't as bad as could have been (once again, indiscriminate targeting by IDF and IAF are mostly hollow talk). Border situation supposed to improve, so a gain (which will be attributed to Hamas). The view that they are under tyrannical rule might be true - but not sure you could say they population in Gaza will subscribe to this point of view wholesale. Being under economic and military pressure, exposed to constant propaganda, having limited political alternatives and belonging to a different cultural/religious mindset, may make them have a different take on the situation. Israeli government - The Iron Dome is mostly chalked up to the previous government (which at the time the current PM ridiculed as weak vs. the Hamas...) and the generosity of the USA. Also, it does intercept rockets very effectively but doesn't make routine life possible. Whether this will effect the upcoming elections, hard to say - depends a lot of the next couple of months, much can happen and public memory is very short. Having Egypt agree to play a more active role in preventing arms smuggling is a major win (not necessarily for the current government) - if Egypt lives up to it, good - if they don't, it's pretty much the same as it is now and clear who's responsible. Nothing to loss, really. The very fact that the new Egyptian regime had to deal directly with Israel is an important and positive development. Egypt (which you termed the Muslim Brotherhood) - yes, they gained prestige, but on the other hand they are now committed to uphold certain things which they weren't keen to (opening the border pass, dealing with arms smuggling, dealing with Israel). Might not sit all that well with radicals within, opposition, and voters. And may I add another "winner"? The USA. Showed who's got more clout, didn't get further tied up in any significant, and mostly perceived as got it done (less of the usual they-are-pro-Israel-bias talk). On the contrary, the EU, UN, Arab league proved quite irrelevant, not to mention Russia or China which were hardly involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) The Hamasniks among the people of Gaza are celebrating. Hell, they like to celebrate so hard that one got killed and three wounded just from the happy Hamas party shooting indiscriminately in the air! If one dies from 'celebratory fire' are they considered to have been martyred? Interesting point, that should test the scholars of terrorism. Edited November 22, 2012 by uptheos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) Celebratory fire is often used as an excuse to settle a lot of scores in the Middle East. I attended a wedding celebration in Eastern Turkey, a long time back. Shots were fired by the groom's family inside the wedding hall, causing a sizable chunk of the ceiling to come down and almost hit the future mother-in-law. Could have been a failed preemptive strike... Edited November 22, 2012 by Morch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) A different viewpoint, from the New York Times, (FYI not a Jihadist media outlet) on the murder of the Head of the Hamas Military Wing, Jabari, that kicked off the recent conflict. In summary saying the assassination was a miscalculation by the Israelis. Jabari was involved in negotiating an Egyptian-brokered comprehensive, long-term cease-fire with Israel when he was killed. Jabari had been given a near-final version of a ceasefire agreement by the Egyptians hours before he was killed. Had he not been killed, Jabari would have been responsible for enforcing the agreement to stop rockets fired by various Palestinian groups from Gaza into Israel. http://www.nytimes.c...ation.html?_r=0 Edited November 22, 2012 by simple1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) I think dubbing sides as "winners" or "losers" depends on time perspective. Most of what you stated is probably holds for the short term - not so sure if the implications of long term effects are quite the same. The Israeli population - right now doesn't seem rockets are being fired from Gaza, not sure what you refer to. As to how long it will last... wouldn't put any money on it. Having the Israeli government not living up to their expectations might make the Israelis vote for another in the upcoming elections - so possibly a gain, depends on one's political views. Getting the job done is a slogan - what you get is a temporary respite, with a diplomatic price tag (not to mention casualties). Palestinian population - took a beating, but compared to the last round and the fears of a ground invasion, the hits they took and damage done aren't as bad as could have been (once again, indiscriminate targeting by IDF and IAF are mostly hollow talk). Border situation supposed to improve, so a gain (which will be attributed to Hamas). The view that they are under tyrannical rule might be true - but not sure you could say they population in Gaza will subscribe to this point of view wholesale. Being under economic and military pressure, exposed to constant propaganda, having limited political alternatives and belonging to a different cultural/religious mindset, may make them have a different take on the situation. Israeli government - The Iron Dome is mostly chalked up to the previous government (which at the time the current PM ridiculed as weak vs. the Hamas...) and the generosity of the USA. Also, it does intercept rockets very effectively but doesn't make routine life possible. Whether this will effect the upcoming elections, hard to say - depends a lot of the next couple of months, much can happen and public memory is very short. Having Egypt agree to play a more active role in preventing arms smuggling is a major win (not necessarily for the current government) - if Egypt lives up to it, good - if they don't, it's pretty much the same as it is now and clear who's responsible. Nothing to loss, really. The very fact that the new Egyptian regime had to deal directly with Israel is an important and positive development. Egypt (which you termed the Muslim Brotherhood) - yes, they gained prestige, but on the other hand they are now committed to uphold certain things which they weren't keen to (opening the border pass, dealing with arms smuggling, dealing with Israel). Might not sit all that well with radicals within, opposition, and voters. And may I add another "winner"? The USA. Showed who's got more clout, didn't get further tied up in any significant, and mostly perceived as got it done (less of the usual they-are-pro-Israel-bias talk). On the contrary, the EU, UN, Arab league proved quite irrelevant, not to mention Russia or China which were hardly involved. Thanks for your reply, as ever it is objective and well reasoned, even the parts I disagree with. There are many ironies and possibly many unintended consequences various parties will have to deal with. Netanyahu will probably have to deal with many unhappy Israelis particularly in the South, where I believe there was a demonstration in the town where 3 people were killed. Should the ceasefire break down I think he will suffer some electoral fallout, but I think he was and still is pretty secure. This makes the kneejerk accusation of electioneering look pretty silly, especially as Hamas, who were overdue holding elections with their popularity waning gain a probable electoral boost from the violence, not that I believe they would allow themselves to be voted out in 2013 any more than an Iranian regime could be. Anyway this 3d chess game awaits the next move, if I were to guess I would go for Hezbollah starting missile attacks on Northern Israel, but that's for another day and a future. topic. Edited November 22, 2012 by Steely Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 A different viewpoint, from the New York Times, (FYI not a Jihadist media outlet) on the murder of the Head of the Hamas Military Wing, Jabari, that kicked off the recent conflict. In summary saying the assassination was a miscalculation by the Israelis. Jabari was involved in negotiating an Egyptian-brokered comprehensive, long-term cease-fire with Israel when he was killed. Jabari had been given a near-final version of a ceasefire agreement by the Egyptians hours before he was killed. Had he not been killed, Jabari would have been responsible for enforcing the agreement to stop rockets fired by various Palestinian groups from Gaza into Israel. http://www.nytimes.c...ation.html?_r=0 The negotiations weren't with official Israeli authorities, but proposals and ideas exchanged between Baskin (and probably others) with Hamas contacts. Just to be clear - the offer was not accepted and approved by both sides, so no guarantees that Jabari would have indeed been up to the task of enforcing it. That said, while Baskin isn't an official Israeli negotiator, he was involved in negotiations with the PA and Hamas in the past. Hard to judge if he got any Israeli official unofficial blessing for the latest endeavor. Pays to read the whole article, though - interesting man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 A different viewpoint, from the New York Times, (FYI not a Jihadist media outlet) on the murder of the Head of the Hamas Military Wing, Jabari, that kicked off the recent conflict. In summary saying the assassination was a miscalculation by the Israelis. Jabari was involved in negotiating an Egyptian-brokered comprehensive, long-term cease-fire with Israel when he was killed. Jabari had been given a near-final version of a ceasefire agreement by the Egyptians hours before he was killed. Had he not been killed, Jabari would have been responsible for enforcing the agreement to stop rockets fired by various Palestinian groups from Gaza into Israel. http://www.nytimes.c...ation.html?_r=0 The negotiations weren't with official Israeli authorities, but proposals and ideas exchanged between Baskin (and probably others) with Hamas contacts. Just to be clear - the offer was not accepted and approved by both sides, so no guarantees that Jabari would have indeed been up to the task of enforcing it. That said, while Baskin isn't an official Israeli negotiator, he was involved in negotiations with the PA and Hamas in the past. Hard to judge if he got any Israeli official unofficial blessing for the latest endeavor. Pays to read the whole article, though - interesting man. Sure, no guarantees, but it appears from the article the intent was in-place from Jabari. A very interesting man & sheds some light on what goes on in the back channels of communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 ...It is really hard to believe it is 2012 & this is how far we as humans have not come. ... Yes it is really hard to believe because that video is from 2008-9, not 2012. Oooooh ! Thank Gawd! I would hate to think anything similar is occurring these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians . I see we've been watching Netenyahu press conferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians . I see we've been watching Netenyahu press conferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuimike1 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Here we go again! Palestinians: One killed, several wounded by IDF fire on Gaza border Hamas spokesman accuses Israel of violating the Egyptian-mediated truce, says organization will complain to Cairo; Israeli military spokeswoman says army investigating report. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinians-one-killed-several-wounded-by-idf-fire-on-gaza-border-1.480092 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Here is one editorial which dares spell out the truth. Celebration within Gaza after the bombing of a bus filled with innocent Israeli civilians is an object lesson on the so-called Palestine question. Those who would celebrate such a cowardly act are savages. Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/112112-634360-celebrating-bus-bombing-is-reminder-of-hamas-evil.htm#ixzz2D2jeD5s6 Indeed. As for the dead Palestinian today, had he got across the fence then another bus bombing may well have resulted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Here we go again! Palestinians: One killed, several wounded by IDF fire on Gaza border Hamas spokesman accuses Israel of violating the Egyptian-mediated truce, says organization will complain to Cairo; Israeli military spokeswoman says army investigating report. http://www.haaretz.c...border-1.480092 What do you expect if a mob rushes the border fence? One man had already gotten across the border in another incident. He was returned to Gaza by Israel. In the meantime, President Morsi has given himself absolute powers and this has led to protests. I don't know how much longer Egypt will be able to hold itself out as the calming force. If the Egyptian people rise up against Morsi's decision to make his decisions/edicts uncontestable, I anticipate some splinter groups in Gaza will revert to their attacks. What we may have here is a brief respite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 A post in violation of fair use policy has been deleted. Please only quote the first three sentences of an article and then a link to the remainder. To do otherwise, can be construed as a violation of copyright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Joy stick warriors against Firecracker warrios, game over! 5 to 167 for the joy stick warrios. This argument seems to be used to show some kind of moral superiority to the Hamas side. I don't see it. Especially bizarre when it is quite obvious Hamas provoked the Israeli response by massively increasing their rocket attacks and also obtaining and using more serious Iranian missiles. Why does Hamas value the lives of their OWN people so little when the response and uneven results were pretty much assured? The reason Israel's casualties were light is Iron Dome, thanks to Obama's America. I don't think either side has any moral superiority. Actually the Israelis provoked it by imposing collective punishment on the Palestinians for over 40 years. Most of the people alive now had nothing to do with any of the wars against Israel, but their lives suck because of Israeli blocade etc. Hamas values the lives of it's own people so little because they have no hope of resolving the situation unless something drastic happens to change the situation. Everytime a dead Palestinian child is shown on tv it turns hundreds of people against Israel. Using high explosive bombs in a crowded city is a sure way to recruit people to oppose the Israelis. I doubt anyone posting on this forum would be supporting Israel had they been a Palestinian growing up in Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians . Hmmmmmm. Slight bit of difference when Palestinians ( not just Hamas ) fire crude non guided rockets, and the Israelis use laser guided high explosive bombs. Which have more "killing" power? Why is it that when Syria uses bombs against the population it is a crime against humanity, according to the US, yet when Israel does exactly the same thing, the US say it's OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 ... I don't think either side has any moral superiority. ... Agreed. There is massive blame to go all around. So now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) ... I don't think either side has any moral superiority. ... Agreed. There is massive blame to go all around. So now what? The fighting will go on till the Arab population increases to the extent that they become strong enough to destroy Israel, or the US ceases to support Israel, whichever comes first. Whatever happens, it doesn't look good for Israel, unless they make friends with the Arabs soon. It might take 6 or 600 years, but population increase is on the side of the Arabs. Edited November 24, 2012 by thaibeachlovers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Here's another way to look at the situation: These are the realities of the Middle East today. Israel’s astonishing economic growth, its technological prowess, its military preparedness and its tight relationship with the United States have set it a league apart from its Arab adversaries. Peace between the Palestinians and Israelis will come only when Israel decides that it wants to make peace. Wise Israeli politicians, from Ariel Sharon to Ehud Olmert to Ehud Barak, have wanted to take risks to make that peace because they have worried about Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. This is what is in danger, not Israel’s existence. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-israel-dominates-the-middle-east/2012/11/21/d310dc7c-3428-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozfromoz Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 ... I don't think either side has any moral superiority. ... Agreed. There is massive blame to go all around. So now what? The fighting will go on till the Arab population increases to the extent that they become strong enough to destroy Israel, or the US ceases to support Israel, whichever comes first. Whatever happens, it doesn't look good for Israel, unless they make friends with the Arabs soon. It might take 6 or 600 years, but population increase is on the side of the Arabs. The technology increase is on the side of the Israelis. How can Israel make friends with Hamas, who only want to kill them? The last "real" time Arabs all got together to try and wipe them out they had their <deleted> kicked all the way home and then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 ... I don't think either side has any moral superiority. ... Agreed. There is massive blame to go all around. So now what? The fighting will go on till the Arab population increases to the extent that they become strong enough to destroy Israel, or the US ceases to support Israel, whichever comes first. Whatever happens, it doesn't look good for Israel, unless they make friends with the Arabs soon. It might take 6 or 600 years, but population increase is on the side of the Arabs. The technology increase is on the side of the Israelis. How can Israel make friends with Hamas, who only want to kill them?The last "real" time Arabs all got together to try and wipe them out they had their <deleted> kicked all the way home and then some. How do you know what technology will be available to the Arabs in 200 years time? As I said, time is on the side of the Arabs, not the Israelis. Just the increase in Israeli Arabs will see the Jews become a minority in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozfromoz Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Pure hypothetical of course. There's no way anyone can predict what will happen on this planet in 200 years. One could also hypothesise and say that Israel may have a gutful well before the 200 and just off the lot of their enemies. I am having trouble understanding your other point. Does that mean that pure Israelis will procrastinate at a lower rate than what they will allow Arabs to remain inside the borders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) The majority consensus among Israelis (and global Jews) is a desire for Israel to remain a Jewish state meaning demographically a solid Jewish majority is required. There are both theocratic and secular forces with different views on that aspect of it. In the long run, yes there could easily be a demographic issue with Israel retaining a majority Jewish character which is another reason if there is ever to be peace and a real two state solution, Israel could afford to be smaller than it is now if you include the west bank settlements as the current Israel. Jews are an ethnic minority who will always be a small minority in the world, assuming continued existence of some numbers. There is no interest in evangelizing non-Jews and even those who choose to convert to Judaism face a rough ride. As far as birth rates, I'm sure there are lots of statistics about that, but as a rough generalization I think more religious Jews have a tendency towards larger families while more secular ones are more likely to marry non-Jews, have small families, no children, or ... gay. Lots of secular Jews in Israel, so do the math. Edited November 24, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians . I see we've been watching Netenyahu press conferences. I don't need Netanyahu to tell me the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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