CBR250 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I once supported Israel fervently in its attempt to establish a new state based in democratic liberal ideals in the Middle East. I now cringe at the outrageous spin used by Israel in trying to justify the continuing annexation of ever more land on the West Bank, and the current attempt to bully Gazan's into submission for having the temerity to elect a government that Israel doesn't want to talk to. Unless Israel adopts some humanity in its dealings with the Palestinian people, I am a lost supporter - I suspect along with many others. Recent events in Gaza - as well as continuing "settlements" on the West Bank - serve to reinforce a view that Israel is governed by a combination of religious zealots, ultra nationalists and war-mongering fanatics. My sympathies to those many Israelis who vehemently oppose the current policies, but appear too few to force a change of government in the forthcoming election. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) To be clear, there has never been a modern independent nation state called Palestine. Maybe there will be someday. Borders to be determined. Edited November 20, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) I once supported Israel fervently in its attempt to establish a new state based in democratic liberal ideals in the Middle East. I now cringe at the outrageous spin used by Israel in trying to justify the continuing annexation of ever more land on the West Bank, and the current attempt to bully Gazan's into submission for having the temerity to elect a government that Israel doesn't want to talk to. Unless Israel adopts some humanity in its dealings with the Palestinian people, I am a lost supporter - I suspect along with many others. Recent events in Gaza - as well as continuing "settlements" on the West Bank - serve to reinforce a view that Israel is governed by a combination of religious zealots, ultra nationalists and war-mongering fanatics. My sympathies to those many Israelis who vehemently oppose the current policies, but appear too few to force a change of government in the forthcoming election. Why would it be rational to talk to a government officially dedicated to destroying your nation? (The Hamas charter.) I am also not clear how it is that people expected Israel to do nothing about being rocketed. I follow the progressive Israeli press and they don't tolerate their country being rocketed either, and why should they? You don't have to be at all religious, ultra nationalist or a war mongering fanatic to understand that rational nations need to respond to endless rocket attacks. Not sure why people expect Israel to be so fatalistic and masochistic. None of our home countries would be and we would quickly toss out any leaders that were. I agree that it is not wonderful that Israel's leadership is right wing, but I think responding to endless rocket attacks transcends "wings" in any country. You can argue that Israel's response was too much, or not enough, but from Israel's point of view the hoped for result is no more rocket attacks and to damage the capability for future attacks. Edited November 20, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boater Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 This might cause more to kick off http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235635/Gaza-conflict-Egyptian-president-says-peace-Gaza-imminent-predicts-lasting-ceasefire-begin-tomorrow.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR250 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Jingthing The Israeli government seems to be talking to Hamas now. Or are reports of meetings in Egypt incorrect? And the big question is not what should Israel do about being rocketed, but what has Israel done that has caused Gazan's to engage in such a futile show of anger? Perhaps if our home countries were being deprived of power (on a regular if whimsical basis), effective health care, essential imports, freedom to travel, opportunities to export to earn money, materials for the repair of damaged buildings from previous invasions etc they would fire rockets too - and vote for extremist governments that promised to oppose the oppressors. You reap what you sow. I know there are Israelis who desire nothing more than an Israeli government that will sincerely try to find a peaceful long-term accord with the Palestinian people. It would be difficult of course, but the lack of any sincere attempts to try illustrate the nefarious nature of the current government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. They are on record as being interested in no Israel. Yes, it takes two to tango and with three when the two Palestinian sides are basically schizophrenic, you've got a near hopeless mess. And don't forget the Palestinians are deeply divided. The political conflict between Hamas (the terrorist element) and Fatah (the open to negotiation element), both Palestinians, not so long ago, resulted in thousands of Palestinian deaths, Palestinian on Palestinian. Fatah is probably interested in peace but he is powerless to make it happen (his own support base among the greater Palestinian people, nothing to do with Israel). As another poster said before, there are no innocents in this conflict, all of the sides have culpability (politically, obviously there are lots of innocent people). Edited November 20, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) This might cause more to kick off http://www.dailymail...n-tomorrow.html I doubt it will make a difference. Rather expected behavior when catching spies during wartime in an Islamic fundamentalist society like Gaza, wouldn't you say? Hope they really were spies and weren't murdered for nothing. Somehow I doubt they got fair trials. Edited November 20, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boater Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 This might cause more to kick off http://www.dailymail...n-tomorrow.html I doubt it will make a difference. Rather expected behavior when catching spies during wartime in an Islamic fundamentalist society like Gaza, wouldn't you say? Hope they really were spies and weren't murdered for nothing. Somehow I doubt they got fair trials. Highly doubt they had a fair trial Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johna Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The Problem With Hamas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koheesti Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The thread's topic is "Gaza Crisis: Un's Ban Calls For Ceasefire After Israeli Airstrike Kills Civilians". You'd think that the United Nations General Secretary would know that the word "ceasefire" in that part of the world means "don't shoot me while I regroup and prepare for my next attack"....or then again maybe he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 WOW !! You have been going at it all night. Latest out of Gaza is that Hamas has executed 6 collaborators. Moral of the story is if you want to be a spy then don't get caught. Warning graphic footage http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e49_1353437540 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folium Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 To be clear, there has never been a modern independent nation state called Palestine. Maybe there will be someday. Borders to be determined. Similar to Scotland in other words..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 A number of off-topic posts, personal arguments and other posts as well as replies have been deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuimike1 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school. Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZEMADE Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 This puts things into perspective and shows that the Israeli’s were spot on with their precision bombings and rocket attacks. Also shows the media reporting has been a bit one sided. WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGES GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel at a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing. Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!" The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites. http://au.news.yahoo...rs-with-israel/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 To be clear, there has never been a modern independent nation state called Palestine. Maybe there will be someday. Borders to be determined. What is the objective of making such an empty statement as this one ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school. Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all. On CNN this morning, it was reported that Secretary of State Clinton was working toward a de-escalation in the fighting. The commentator noted it was strange the word ceasefire wasn't used.....for what it's worth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school. Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all. On CNN this morning, it was reported that Secretary of State Clinton was working toward a de-escalation in the fighting. The commentator noted it was strange the word ceasefire wasn't used.....for what it's worth. As usual the situation is as clear as mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keemapoot Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school. Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all. On CNN this morning, it was reported that Secretary of State Clinton was working toward a de-escalation in the fighting. The commentator noted it was strange the word ceasefire wasn't used.....for what it's worth. As usual the situation is as clear as mud. The US prefers to now use the term de-escalation, rather than cease-fire because...well...sh*t happens. It's a more modern term of the realities of these conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 IDF are dropping leaflet into Gaza ordering residence to leave the houses immediately. Causing chaos as families are fleeing their houses and taking shelter in school. Other reports state that a ceasefire will take effect within a few hours. Doesn't gel at all. On CNN this morning, it was reported that Secretary of State Clinton was working toward a de-escalation in the fighting. The commentator noted it was strange the word ceasefire wasn't used.....for what it's worth. As usual the situation is as clear as mud. The US prefers to now use the term de-escalation, rather than cease-fire because...well...sh*t happens. It's a more modern term of the realities of these conflicts. Probabley because they know a ceasefire is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuimike1 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Fox News. Are Gaza strikes a dress rehearsal for potential Israeli assault on Iran? Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/19/are-gaza-strikes-dress-rehearsal-for-potential-israeli-assault-on-iran/#ixzz2Cogv1f4F Is Gaza just a training grund for the next Iran war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) What is the objective of making such an empty statement as this one ?? It is a form of justification for actions taken Same when people justify the blockade by saying things like it is "legal" Or "well just look at the Palestinians they are not starving" Same thing with "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" Take the blockade for instance, Yes understandable as a stop or check for bombs. There are legal blockades all over the world in various forms. But they are called checkpoints. Even the TSA in the USA could be called a blockade/checkpoint. Checking for illegal items that could cause harm. Yet when a blockade dictates even what types of foods are allowed how is it a checkpoint & not a form of capture or enslavement of a people? Statements like "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" another type of justification for actions as the reality is BOTH sides are guilty of "words" Just the other day we saw something to the effect of Only When We Bomb Gaza Back To The Stone Age Will We Have Peace So better to judge actions than words used for justification of actions. IMO Edited November 21, 2012 by mania 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What is the objective of making such an empty statement as this one ?? It is a form of justification for actions taken Same when people justify the blockade by saying things like it is "legal" Or "well just look at the Palestinians they are not starving" Same thing with "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" Take the blockade for instance, Yes understandable as a stop or check for bombs. There are legal blockades all over the world in various forms. But they are called checkpoints. Even the TSA in the USA could be called a blockade/checkpoint. Checking for illegal items that could cause harm. Yet when a blockade dictates even what types of foods are allowed how is it a checkpoint & not a form of capture or enslavement of a people? Statements like "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" another type of justification for actions as the reality is BOTH sides are guilty of "words" Just the other day we saw something to the effect of Only When We Bomb Gaza Back To The Stone Age Will We Have Peace So better to judge actions than words used for justification of actions. IMO Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keemapoot Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Evidently, Hilary Clinton left Asia and went directly to the Middle East in what many are calling her "swan song" as her final potential accomplishment as Secretary of State. That is, if she can really be of influence in keeping this de-escalation or cease-fire in place and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZEMADE Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Fox News. Are Gaza strikes a dress rehearsal for potential Israeli assault on Iran? Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz2Cogv1f4F Is Gaza just a training grund for the next Iran war? I doubt it, with the US backing Israel they will just bomb the s**t out of the place. The man running that country is a fruitloop and has placed his people in extreme danger and he can not be trusted with a Nuke. This is the same guy that does not believe what happened to the Jews in the 2nd World War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What is the objective of making such an empty statement as this one ?? It is a form of justification for actions taken Same when people justify the blockade by saying things like it is "legal" Or "well just look at the Palestinians they are not starving" Same thing with "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" Take the blockade for instance, Yes understandable as a stop or check for bombs. There are legal blockades all over the world in various forms. But they are called checkpoints. Even the TSA in the USA could be called a blockade/checkpoint. Checking for illegal items that could cause harm. Yet when a blockade dictates even what types of foods are allowed how is it a checkpoint & not a form of capture or enslavement of a people? Statements like "They are on record as being interested in no Israel" another type of justification for actions as the reality is BOTH sides are guilty of "words" Just the other day we saw something to the effect of Only When We Bomb Gaza Back To The Stone Age Will We Have Peace So better to judge actions than words used for justification of actions. IMO Thank you for explaining why there is no blockade Goods and material enter Gaza. What the Israelis have attempted to prevent entering are weapons and other material used to attack Israel. Often it is easier to blame Israel for the hardship than it is to recognize that one of the problems is the absolute hatred that exists between Hamas and Fatah. A case in point is medical care. Hamas does contribute much for the medical care of Gaza residents. Rather the funds come from the PA which in turn is funded by Gulf states, the west and the tax revenues Israel collects on behalf of the PA.The Palestinian Authority funds medical treatment outside the Gaza Strip for Gaza residents only when treatment is not available in Gaza. It is the PA that decides who gets refered to hospitals in Israel, Egypt or the PA controlled area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMagus Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It isn't rocket science (no pun intended). If a foreign country was given land in Australia by the UN..then it progressively expanded its holdings on the same scale as is happening in Israel / Palestine ... I expect a few Aussies would be a tad pissed off and might even throw a few rocks at them. Israel can do no wrong as long as the west / Islam divide is maintained. I am unable to upload a map showing Israeli expansion since 1946 but it makes chilling viewing. Just do a Google search on Israeli expansion and you will see what I mean. only Gaza is not occupied and terrorism increased since it was given back to Palestinians yet instead of developing, they continued with the same terror acts. Yes you can be pissed off, but that does not change anything, perhaps time to think "outside the square" and actually do something productive with what you got. No point picking a fight with some where you know you can not win. If and i emphasize IF Palestinians did build an economy and did concentrate on developing, i have no doubt Israel will not have any support from anyone, but when they have spent past century on ONLY terrorism its hard to support them, though with nice fiction movies and propaganda it seems to work for some. If Israel was as savage as some like to believe, the death toll would be thousands PER DAY and multiplying, just look at Syria We are fed a story by the media .... both sides... as we know the first casualty in war is the truth. I think it is incredibly naive of you to say by inference that Israel has 'developed' whilst the Palestinians have not. If the west were to immediately pull all aide to Israel... and Include military as well as everything else...lets see how long it would stay viable. Even a cursory glance at the statistics for just the US will show you that Israel soaks up by far the most foreign aid by America to any other nation...and that is just from America. If the UN had decided to give Israel its 'homeland' in say Greenland, or Chile, or anywhere else for the matter the whole middle east issue would be a non event. However, because some ancient manuscript dug up out of the desert claims that this patch of mother Earth is theirs by divine right, we have what we have. But for god's sake don't go on about how wonderfully developed Israel is as if they have done it on their own ... cos they haven't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Posts which are nothing more than an argument with another poster have been deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Checkpoints and open borders exist where and when violent conflict is absent. Note that there are no such limitations on the West Bank, for example. Egypt enforces pretty much the same regulations on their side of the border with Gaza, even under the leadership of the current government. And they're not even in direct conflict with the Hamas.... Yes I basically agree with that & gave examples such as the TSA But to limit an amount of food or types of foods etc. Does that not seem a bit of an over reach? It appears more of a economic control. Edited November 21, 2012 by mania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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