"death Railway" In Thailand Proposed To Be New World Heritage

[chuchok]

When I think of the famous bridge (and I am not still in nappies and I do know about what happened more or less) and how people react to it I mostly think of war atrocities and anti Japanese sentiment....to me this is not some heritage that needs to be preserved.

You wouldn't happen to work for the Japanese ministry of education would you?

==============================================================

"CHOWNAH" you are very obviously a very ill-informed person, with no regard for other people's feelings. I strongly suggest that you stop any further hurtfull comments, because you are hurting a lot of people.

My own grandfather carried HIS father for many miles down this "Railway-Of-Death" and he didn't even know his father had died miles ago . . . . . . . Yes Sir; he was one of those 18,000 odd Dutch unfortunate, - but extremely brave P.O.W.'s who gave his life, so that "people like you", also, may enjoy freedom & democracy !

Show a little gratitude and hope & pray YOU don't ever have to go through that hel_l that stands for "The Bride Over The River Kwai".

I'll thank you very much for refraining from any further commenting on this topic.

I can't see that I have made any hurtful comments. The topic of this thread is about a proposal for the "death Railway" to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site....and I'm against it. If people are hurt because of my views then perhaps they are too sensitive to be reading about it on ThaiVisa. Do you think that there will be no controversy on this topic? Do you think that all opposing views should be censored? We mostly all have loved ones who have died in war. We mostly all have loved ones who have killed someone elses loved ones in war. This is not a heritage to be celebrated but a great mistake to be remembered so that it won't be repeated....to me there is a huge difference between these two.

I guess you wont be thanking me very much since I haven't refrained.

This wasn't just a War, it was a war atrocity.You can read, educate yourself a little on the subject.Some japanese were executed for there blatant disregard to the Geneve convention. Have a little respect. Don't be such an antagonistic twerp.

[Ricardo]

There is also no German concentration camp on the list.

So I don't think it's the best way to keep the deaths in remembrance...

Maybe there should be.

1. To remember & respect the dead.

2. To remind ourselves why fascist states, unfettered nationalism, unquestioning respect for authority, censorship of the media & blatant propaganda, etc are so bad, and why we should stand up for democracy, with all its faults.

3. I'd also throw-in one of the Boer-War concentration camps, in South Africa, to remind myself of what my own country was capable of.

[chownah]

There is also no German concentration camp on the list.

So I don't think it's the best way to keep the deaths in remembrance...

Maybe there should be.

1. To remember & respect the dead.

2. To remind ourselves why fascist states, unfettered nationalism, unquestioning respect for authority, censorship of the media & blatant propaganda, etc are so bad, and why we should stand up for democracy, with all its faults.

3. I'd also throw-in one of the Boer-War concentration camps, in South Africa, to remind myself of what my own country was capable of.

I agree that war and its atrocities should be remembered so that they can be avoided in the future. I think that perhaps there is some misunderstanding about what a "heritage" is. It is my understanding that a heritage is some valuable cultural trait that he inherit from previous cultures. I don't see this as happening in relation to the "death Railway". The "death Railway" does not bring to my mind some treasured cultureal heritage....it brings to my mind the atarocities of war and a continuing anti-Japanese sentiment....neither of these are things that I want to encourage people to maintain as part of their heritage...these are things I want to eliminate from the face of the earth. My cultural heritage is that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the birthright of all humans everywhere in the world....so now that I have described part of what my cultural heritage is would the people who want to make the "death Railway" a UNESCO World Heritage site please describe exactly what part this plays in their heritage?

[JXXXL]

these are things I want to eliminate from the face of the earth. My cultural heritage is that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the birthright of all humans everywhere in the world....so now that I have described part of what my cultural heritage is would the people who want to make the "death Railway" a UNESCO World Heritage site please describe exactly what part this plays in their heritage?

Oh, I see, you want these things removed from the face of the earth. Believe me, you happen to be in the ignorant minotiry on this issue.

Just to make it simple, for peace to prevail, it's more important to preserve things of this nature than simply benign relics.

Anti-Japanese sentiment? Gimme a break, you're an idiot.

Edited February 14, 2006 by JXXXL

[Maejo Man]

There is also no German concentration camp on the list.

So I don't think it's the best way to keep the deaths in remembrance...

Please check your facts before posting!

1947 act of the Polish parliament established the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum on the grounds of the two extant parts of the camp, Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II-Birkenau.

The site was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1979.

[chownah]

Below I have copied and pasted PART of the citeria for inclusion on the World Heritage list. It came from this website:

http://whc.unesco.org/opgulist.htm#para23

It is too long to post it all here...I chose what seemed to be the most pertinent section but I'm not trying to hide the rest so if you think the "death Railway" should be listed then please go look at the criteria in full and in detail...and then I would apprecitate it if you would report back and explain under which criteria you believe the "death Railway" should be listed. I'll assume that if you do not come back with an explanation of which criteria, then you agree with me that it should not be listed...hahahahahhahahaha! ha!

"................

C. Criteria for the inclusion of cultural properties in the World Heritage List

23. The criteria for the inclusion of cultural properties in the World Heritage List should always be seen in relation to one another and should be considered in the context of the definition set out in Article 1 of the Convention which is reproduced below:

"monuments: architectural works, works of monumental sculpture and painting, elements or structures of an archaeological nature, inscriptions, cave dwellings and combinations of features, which are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history, art or science;

groups of buildings: groups of separate or connected buildings which, because of their architecture, their homogeneity or their place in the landscape, are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history, art or science;

sites: works of man or the combined works of nature and of man, and areas including archaeological sites which are of outstanding universal value from the historical, aesthetic, ethnological or anthropological points of view."

24. A monument, group of buildings or site - as defined above - which is nominated for inclusion in the World Heritage List will be considered to be of outstanding universal value for the purposes of the Convention when the Committee finds that it meets one or more of the following criteria and the test of authenticity. Each property nominated should therefore:

represent a masterpiece of human creative genius; or

exhibit an important interchange of human values, over a span of time or within a cultural area of the world, on developments in architecture or technology, monumental arts, town-planning or landscape design; or

bear a unique or at least exceptional testimony to a cultural tradition or to a civilization which is living or which has disappeared; or

be an outstanding example of a type of building or architectural or technological ensemble or landscape which illustrates (a) significant stage(s) in human history; or

be an outstanding example of a traditional human settlement or land-use which is representative of a culture (or cultures), especially when it has become vulnerable under the impact of irreversible change; or

be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance (the Committee considers that this criterion should justify inclusion in the List only in exceptional circumstances and in conjunction with other criteria cultural or natural);

and

meet the test of authenticity in design, material, workmanship or setting and in the case of cultural landscapes their distinctive character and components (the Committee stressed that reconstruction is only acceptable if it is carried out on the basis of complete and detailed documentation on the original and to no extent on conjecture).

have adequate legal and/or traditional protection and management mechanisms to ensure the conservation of the nominated cultural properties or cultural landscapes. The existence of protective legislation at the national, provincial or municipal level and/or a well-established contractual or traditional protection as well as of adequate management and/or planning control mechanisms is therefore essential and, as is clearly indicated in the following paragraph, must be stated clearly on the nomination form. Assurances of the effective implementation of these laws and/or contractual and/or traditional protection as well as of these management mechanisms are also expected. Furthermore, in order to preserve the integrity of cultural sites, particularly those open to large numbers of visitors, the State Party concerned should be able to provide evidence of suitable administrative arrangements to cover the management of the property, its conservation and its accessibility to the public.

............."

[tuky]

Your not an Aussie then...

[Jai Dee]

Settle down please people... can you please keep antagonistic comments out of this thread?

Thanks.

[Maejo Man]

Below I have copied and pasted PART of the citeria for inclusion on the World Heritage list. It came from this website:

I'll assume that if you do not come back with an explanation of which criteria, then you agree with me that it should not be listed...hahahahahhahahaha! ha!

C. Criteria for the inclusion of cultural properties in the World Heritage List

groups of buildings: groups of separate or connected buildings which, because of their architecture, their homogeneity or their place in the landscape, are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history

Amongst that and other factors is how Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II-Birkenau was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1979.

Your quote from an earlier post ...."My cultural heritage is that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the birthright of all humans everywhere in the world"

Very American, however, I'll go along with that, as long as you bear in mind that your precious liberty was obtained by some very selfless people, in order that you could continue to enjoy your "pursuit of happiness"

[JXXXL]

...so if you think the "death Railway" should be listed then please go look at the criteria in full and in detail...and then I would apprecitate it if you would report back and explain under which criteria you believe the "death Railway" should be listed.

ced below:

"monuments: architectural works, works of monumental sculpture and painting, elements or structures of an archaeological nature, inscriptions, cave dwellings and combinations of features, which are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history, art or science;

There you go Einstein, found your criteria in the first para.

[chownah]

...so if you think the "death Railway" should be listed then please go look at the criteria in full and in detail...and then I would apprecitate it if you would report back and explain under which criteria you believe the "death Railway" should be listed.

ced below:

"monuments: architectural works, works of monumental sculpture and painting, elements or structures of an archaeological nature, inscriptions, cave dwellings and combinations of features, which are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history, art or science;

There you go Einstein, found your criteria in the first para.

You aren't being very clear in what YOUR criteria is so I'll assume that you are asserting that the bridge is a structure of an archaeological nature which is of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history. Also I want to get one thing very clear...I do not have a criteria....I don't think the "death Railway" should not be a world heritage site because there is not valid criteria to make it so in my opinion.

It is my understanding that the existing bridge is a bridge built much later than the original and that it is not built according to the original design......if this is correct then the bridge that exists today is not an archaeological structure at all...it is just a bridge built to commemorate the atrocities and as a focal point for tourists who come to the site.

Does anyone know if I am right or wrong about this? Is the existing bridge a newer structure than the original and is new bridge of a different design than the original?

[JXXXL]

...so if you think the "death Railway" should be listed then please go look at the criteria in full and in detail...and then I would apprecitate it if you would report back and explain under which criteria you believe the "death Railway" should be listed.

ced below:

"monuments: architectural works, works of monumental sculpture and painting, elements or structures of an archaeological nature, inscriptions, cave dwellings and combinations of features, which are of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history, art or science;

There you go Einstein, found your criteria in the first para.

You aren't being very clear in what YOUR criteria is so I'll assume that you are asserting that the bridge is a structure of an archaeological nature which is of outstanding universal value from the point of view of history. Also I want to get one thing very clear...I do not have a criteria....I don't think the "death Railway" should not be a world heritage site because there is not valid criteria to make it so in my opinion.

It is my understanding that the existing bridge is a bridge built much later than the original and that it is not built according to the original design......if this is correct then the bridge that exists today is not an archaeological structure at all...it is just a bridge built to commemorate the atrocities and as a focal point for tourists who come to the site.

Does anyone know if I am right or wrong about this? Is the existing bridge a newer structure than the original and is new bridge of a different design than the original?

If it's not clear to you already, MY personal criteria has already been me for making this a WHS. I think a reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand why from reading my posts in this thread. However, I thought you challenged me to show that the railroad met the criteria posted on the WHS website, part of which you pasted in your post. Either way, it passes.

Regarding the bridge, yes, it has been rebuilt but that is of little relevance because we are talking about more than simply a bridge. Namely, about half a millon skeletons along the entire route of the railroad.

I'm done with you and this issue. I suggest you get some remedial education before you engage yourself in this kind of discussion again.

[Nordlys]

Does anyone know if I am right or wrong about this? Is the existing bridge a newer structure than the original and is new bridge of a different design than the original?

I recall reading an article from Bangkok Post many years ago that the original bridge was not even at the present location.

[Donz]

No the bridge is at the original place, the bridge was actually destroyed by the Us to stop the japs supplies, I know a man who was a australian POW and some of the stories he says are shocking, making them sleep on piss and shit.

The bridge was rebuilt in rememberance of all the people who died.

Alot of local thais also dies there

[sierra01]

I may be wrong as well but I think that the middle of the bridge came from Japan after the war, to replace the sections destroyed by allied bombing, but the rest is original.

As for the wooden bridge that of course is long gone but was originally 100/200M from the steel bridge, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ricardo]

I agree that war and its atrocities should be remembered so that they can be avoided in the future.

and the JEATH railway is an excellent example for teaching this, whose WHS-listing might help raise awareness amongst Thais, currently sadly lacking, of the S.E.Asians who died here

I think that perhaps there is some misunderstanding about what a "heritage" is. It is my understanding that a heritage is some valuable cultural trait that he inherit from previous cultures.

Agreed, but can this not also include negative, as well as positive, examples ?

....it brings to my mind the atarocities of war and a continuing anti-Japanese sentiment....neither of these are things that I want to encourage people to maintain as part of their heritage...these are things I want to eliminate from the face of the earth.

Those who forget their history are doomed to re-live it. I think it is especially relevant that the designation is being proposed by a Japanese who was there. I would also propose, on similar grounds, Ground-Zero at Hiroshima & Nagasaki . I definitely don't see this as encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment.

My cultural heritage is that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the birthright of all humans everywhere in the world..

With you 100% on that

/quote]

I would add that for me World Heritage Site status would include, as well as the tightly-defined categories discussed above, other places where important things happened. Rule-Books are guide-lines only, rigidly following them can be misleading, human-beings make wiser judgements !

[sierra01]

[gburns57au]

I have just met a Thai guy who was instrumental in the events leading to the opening of the bridge and its current status....He is Kanchanaburi born and bred and is a leading advocate of it being listed, His grandfather was killed for helping the prisoners by smuggling food to them. He is very proud of the bridge and the sacrifice that was made in the building of it.

nuff said.

[Kan Win]

sierra01 Thank you for the photo taken, me think over the now Felix Hotel or may have been the other side of the river to this Hotel.

Last years’ reenactment and has been going on since 1980.

For a bigger picture visit here

Yours truly,

Kan Win

Edited February 14, 2006 by Kan Win

[Maejo Man]

The Bridge

One of the prime reasons for the construction of the railway by the Japanese was to overcome the total reliance on sea transport as the only means of supplying Burma once the country was under their control by June 1942. Shipping on the long sea voyage around Singapore was prone to submarine attack once the allies were fully operational out of India.

Engineers had surveyed the 415 km route but expressed doubts about the economics of the project. However with a vast source of labour at their disposal in the form of Allied Prisoners of War it was planned to begin construction from both ends at once using metre gauge single track.

The first prisoners arriving at Ban Pong to begin construction on 23 June 1942

The first bridge across the river Mae Khlaung was a wooden trestle bridge 220 meters long completed in February 1943 and a second eleven span concrete and steel construction using semi-eliptic spans brought from Java and completed in July 1943.

The two lines met at Konkuita on 17 October 1943. The Burma teams having built 152 km of track while those from Thailand a total of 263 Km.

Once the bridges were completed they became prime targets and a number of raids were carried out that unfortunately killed a number of prisoners.

source www.hellfirepass.com