Are Ceremonies Part Of The Teaching Of Buddhism?

[fanciman]

I have been told by monks that in the teaching of Buddhism, there are no ceremonies. There are no priests in Buddhism, as priests carry out ceremonies.

Is this true?

I know that in Thailand monks are invited to funerals. I think they chant there. But as far as I understand, this sort of activity was not taught by Buddha.

What about the following:

Theravadan funeral ceremonies

Mahayana First Bardo ceremonies

Kathina ceremonies

Thank you.

Edited December 10, 2012 by fanciman

[fabianfred]

Kathina are ceremonies where lay-followers make donations of robes,money and other requisites to the monks.

The part which Buddhist monks play in funerals is to chant the passages about death and impermanence....teaching dhamma to the people...giving them the precepts...receiving robes and offerings...which allows the people to make merit which is then shared with the dead person to try and give them a good rebirth.

The Buddha also attended funerals and used them as occasions to teach.

Like all religions Buddhism gets caught up in too much ceremony. The people like it and think it is important.

The Buddha did not want images made, he didn't want the people to worship him.

The way to show your respect for the Buddha and his teachings is to listen to them and practice what he taught. Few do that. He said that if a person clung on to his robe and followed him for years, he would still be far from him, but one who practiced what he taught would be close to him.

People like to make merit by giving..... because it is easier than keeping the five precepts....a sop to many people's conscience.

People (and many monks) like to chant...because it is easier than the real practice of meditation.

I doubt if the monks chanted the praises of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha whilst he was still alive...I bet all that came later.....they spent their time practicing.

[lungmi]

Authentical Buddhism is one side (the Buddhadhamma of.P.A.Payutto) makes a modern analysis, but the Cultural Buddhism is the other.

Most of the contradictions revealed in the different schools of Buddhism are ignorancy of correct interpretation.

Discursive and non-discursive statements (sorry I'm Semiologue) of The Buddha were mixed - in the Abidhamma and ...

Rituals are on one side the proove for the assimilation energy of Buddhism and on the other a jail.

A wheel- chair is good, but for someone who can walk already, it's a jail.

[khaowong1]

Bhuddhahasa Bhikhu at Wat Suan Mohk would not allow ceremonies or even Buddha statues at his temple when he was alive. The only ceremonies I can think of that the Buddha participated in were funeral ceremonies and Kathin. And even those was centered around his teaching nothing like you see now. I get in trouble all the time for mentioning this. These days it's all a show at the temples, allowing people to make merit. I'm constantly told, it's what the people want and it's what keeps the bills paid. When we try and concentrate on just giving his teachings and meditation, very few people show up. It's a mess in Thailand and it's a mess here in the US. But it's the same in Christian churches, if you go now adays, all you will see is music, singing and feel good activities rather than giving the people Jesus's original message. So what's to be done, I don't have a clue. Wat Pah Nanachat is about as close to the original intent that I know of. They have all night Dhamma talks constantly and really, really concentrate on meditation. It's worth a visit to see how they operate. Ajahn Chah, Buddhasas Bhikhu, Ajahn Mun, Luang Ta Maha Boohwa, the old masters are gone. The only one left is Luang Pho Jaran, and he's getting up there in age. If your really interested in the original Buddhism, you should take the time to go visit his temple in Singburi.

[khaowong1]

P.S. a note here about Ajahn Chah. He said many times that he found westerners much more interested in the original Buddhism than most Thai's. Just thought I would throw that out.

[Jawnie]

Not sure what you mean with the word "ceremonies." A lot of the Thai ceremonies I see on tv seem to be 'ceremonial', ie for show, as opposed to ritual or practice. Everyone seems to being going through the motions but I always have the sense that it's all pretty shallow, that they are just doing because that is what you are supposed to do. It all seems completely divorced from "mind training', which would be another purpose of ceremonies. In all things Buddhist, whether an action is positive or negative is completely dependent on the motivation of the individual.

As you know, Mahayana and Vajrayana have tons of ceremonies and rituals. Theravadins like to say the Buddha didn't teach these, but that's not true. Morever, his subsequent incarnation, Padmasambhava, taught the use of ceremonies and ritual extensively, both personal and for groups. Some people say that the Buddha gave the teachings (sutras, etc.) while Padmasambhava gave the practices (ceremonies). They are all meant for both mind training and for making merit, again, according to the motivation of the individual. I'm not sure whether Theravada emphasizes the motivation and mind training aspects of ceremonies.

[rockyysdt]

In all things Buddhist, whether an action is positive or negative is completely dependent on the motivation of the individual.

I sometimes ponder on this.

If one is deluded, then wouldn't this overule motivation/intention if the action is negative?

I'd say, even positive actions may lack merit if greed and delusion are involved.

Many act with what they think is good intention but due to their lack of awareness (delusion/greed) their actions can be misguided.

Edited December 18, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

In all things Buddhist, whether an action is positive or negative is completely dependent on the motivation of the individual.

I sometimes ponder on this.

If one is deluded, then wouldn't this overule motivation/intention if the action is negative?

I'd say, even positive actions may lack merit if greed and delusion are involved.

Many act with what they think is good intention but due to their lack of awareness (delusion/greed) their actions can be misguided.

Correct.

[fabianfred]

An example of how silly the thai belief and understanding ....

The abbot of our temple was sick with hepatitis after a trip to India. They (layity or monks...don't know who) decided to hold a big 'riak kwan' (calling back the spirit) ceremony for him.

They set up the big tripod of wooden poles and bags of white string going everywhere (power cord)....just like they do at a house-warming here in the North, where the family sit under it with string coming down to their heads. He was still in hospital so they had a set of robes and framed photo under it.

Many important monks from the area came and the place was filled with lay-followers. They did lots of chanting and even had a special hour long one which someone had printed out especially.

The intention of course was to make merit and then transfer it to the abbot hoping to improve his condition.

There is an excellent booklet on making merit in Thai..and there are copies at the temple for people to take away.

Anyone who read that knows that five minutes meditation gains far more merit than days and nights of chanting. (chanting is like talking the talk whilst meditation is like walking the walk).

They could have done much more good by forgetting all the elaborate ceremony and just had everyone doing an hours mediation. IMHO this would have earned a million times more merit.

But, of course, chanting is easy, meditation is not....take the easy way, the more popular way out.

Even most monks and novices do not meditate because it is too difficult...and many have never been taught properly.

[hookedondhamma]

I agree completely. Thai Buddhism is Thai Buddhism and Buddhism is Buddhism. but the lines have become so blurred over the years that much is now about making merit and not practicing like one should. there are a few genuine temples that do exist but they are very very few. for those foreigners who ordained for the most part they will have to put up with many many different aspects of Thai culture labeled as Buddhism. which is why it is so important to make sure that one observes correctly to find the right teacher ... Not the one who thinks that the deathless is impossible to achieve and that one should make as much merit as he can to go to heaven. find the right teacher who treats you as a human being and not as something lower than his pristine nationality. find the right teacher who can actually keep control over his mouth his body and his mind, and remember the amount of rank one has has nothing to do with it. it is their practice that matters.

It may take some time but there are perfectly good temples out there suitable for practice. sometimes they are easier to find than others because they are the temples that the monks do not want to live at because they consist of jungle, forest and their 'ghosts'. even then some monks who live there will love to socialize quite a bit - it is the norm here - and that is what makes the forest so great - those who enter it will not have many followers lol

And for the record as far as ghosts go, I believe that much of what they see are tulpas, the exception being those who can actually see other life forms. the mind is a powerful thing.

Edited December 20, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[atlbravosfan]

In all things Buddhist, whether an action is positive or negative is completely dependent on the motivation of the individual.

I sometimes ponder on this.

If one is deluded, then wouldn't this overule motivation/intention if the action is negative?

I'd say, even positive actions may lack merit if greed and delusion are involved.

Many act with what they think is good intention but due to their lack of awareness (delusion/greed) their actions can be misguided.

Here's the thing as well: outward form and action is not true merit. It is merely additional bondage because all you are doing is accumulating more karma. The only true merit resides in concentration and mindfulness. There is only one Buddha, the Buddha of your own mind.

[oldsailor35]

I have asked this question elsewhere, but lost it.

How long does it normally take from death to cremation