Pattaya Brits Still Have No Consular Support

[LeCharivari]

.... I also know FAR MORE about the current situation than you as well. ....

With all due respect to your work as Honorary Consul, I think you are deluding yourself here - the Embassy wasted no time in dispensing with your services once it was decided that your face didn't fit, so one thing you are NOT privy to is the goings on at the Embassy.

4. I am speculating that the recent shooting of a Brit in the South has delayed the interviewing process for a new Hon Con.

Yes you are - the shooting in Haad Rin on 1 Jan is a Thai police matter and the only Embassy/Consular involvement is accompanying the mother to identify the body and passing on information from the Thai police to next of kin.

Interviews for Embassy posts and selection, as you should know, usually takes around three weeks so should have been completed well before Christmas, but appointments are not confirmed until "training" is complete. A far more likely "speculation" is that the Ambassador will make the announcement at his address to the Expats Club, due later this month.

The embassy reply, posts on our website, clearly states that the region WILL have an hon con. that Hon con WILL have the same powers as the previous ones, including Howard but, as we know, wont be acting as a clerk and handing out documentation, which is disappointing.

"powers" ??? Just what "powers" are those? and just what "emergency functions" ??

I think you mean responsibilities, and those are now very limited and the new Hon.Con will be little more than a "gofer" for the Embassy when necessary, with the Embassy dealing with all Consular enquiries initially then tasking the Hon.Con to do what little leg work they can't be bothered to do themselves. Prior to Howard and Barry I doubt if anyone could even name the Hon.Con, as is the case elsewhere, and after the initial back-slapping and euphoria dies down once the new Hon.Con is named the only people who will know or care will be those unfortunate enough to discover just how little the Hon. Con can do.

I can't actually work out why anyone should be "amazed", etc, at the lack of a Hon.Con, except for those who applied and who were not short-listed .... even if one had been appointed, and in the absence of a tsunami, all they would have had to do so far would be arrange the Ambassador's visit. Let's be realistic, please ...

[hm1973]

With all due respect to your work as Honorary Consul, I think you are deluding yourself here - the Embassy wasted no time in dispensing with your services once it was decided that your face didn't fit, so one thing you are NOT privy to is the goings on at the Embassy. I am still in regular contact with people at the Embassy, sometimes "business" and sometimes "pleasure"

Yes you are - the shooting in Haad Rin on 1 Jan is a Thai police matter and the only Embassy/Consular involvement is accompanying the mother to identify the body and passing on information from the Thai police to next of kin. Sorry I was wrong

Interviews for Embassy posts and selection, as you should know, usually takes around three weeks so should have been completed well before Christmas, but appointments are not confirmed until "training" is complete. Not true. I received my formal training about 5 months after my appointment. I was lucky to have been informally trained by Barry Kenyon 3 weeks before I started which he did out of the kindness of his own heart and was not asked to do it by the Embassy. If he had not helped me I would have been in real trouble when I started A far more likely "speculation" is that the Ambassador will make the announcement at his address to the Expats Club, due later this month. I hope that is the case, its a great way to do it!

"powers" ??? Just what "powers" are those? and just what "emergency functions" ?? You're right about powers but Honorary Consular Officers are mentioned in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. It's Chapter III entitled: REGIME RELATING TO HONORARY CONSULAR OFFICERS AND CONSULAR POSTS HEADED BY SUCH OFFICERS. Take a read if you have the time

[LeCharivari]

...978 British nationals required consular assistance in Thailand between 1 April 2011 and 31 March 2012, including for the following types of incident: 296 deaths; 217 hospitalisations; 204 arrests for a variety of offences.

and just what "consular assistance" did the 25 + Consular staff at the Embassy give? Even if you take out the few locally employed staff who actually do the work and man the office that's less than 3 a day between them!

296 deaths ... and all the vast majority needed and got were their death registered and a death certificate issued.

217 hospitalizations ... so what? Very few got a visit, even if they asked for one repeatedly.

204 arrests ... and just what involvement did the Consular staff have, apart from producing a list of lawyers that, at least in Pattaya's case, includes a law firm headed up by a British lawyer who has been suspended indefinitely in the UK for incompetence!

So the Pattaya Consulate's closed because it was too expensive to train the staff and too small for the queue when it was only open 2 days a week .... so that's all the Consul's fault, as he chose the Vice Consul who took 5 months to train (3 months in Bangkok followed by 2 months under Bangkok staff supervision in Pattaya) and then only stayed in the job for 4 months in Pattaya before asking for a transfer then resigning as she'd never been to Pattaya before and hated the place .... so he's now choosing the new Hon.Con .... SO WHAT?? There are no more Brits here than there were four years ago when the Consulate opened in 2009, probably less, and prior to Barry doing hospital and prison visits as a volunteer no-one knew or cared who the previous Hon.Con was (I wonder how many other people here can name MC?). I really do appreciate HM and BK's time and effort, but apart from making life easier with Proof of Pension letters, etc, the Consulate and a working Hon.Con didn't actually make life that much easier for Brits here from 2009 to 2011 than it had before, so its really a lot of fuss over very little.

[LeCharivari]

With all due respect to your work as Honorary Consul, I think you are deluding yourself here - the Embassy wasted no time in dispensing with your services once it was decided that your face didn't fit, so one thing you are NOT privy to is the goings on at the Embassy. I am still in regular contact with people at the Embassy, sometimes "business" and sometimes "pleasure"

Yes you are - the shooting in Haad Rin on 1 Jan is a Thai police matter and the only Embassy/Consular involvement is accompanying the mother to identify the body and passing on information from the Thai police to next of kin. Sorry I was wrong

Interviews for Embassy posts and selection, as you should know, usually takes around three weeks so should have been completed well before Christmas, but appointments are not confirmed until "training" is complete. Not true. I received my formal training about 5 months after my appointment. I was lucky to have been informally trained by Barry Kenyon 3 weeks before I started which he did out of the kindness of his own heart and was not asked to do it by the Embassy. If he had not helped me I would have been in real trouble when I started A far more likely "speculation" is that the Ambassador will make the announcement at his address to the Expats Club, due later this month. I hope that is the case, its a great way to do it!

"powers" ??? Just what "powers" are those? and just what "emergency functions" ?? You're right about powers but Honorary Consular Officers are mentioned in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. It's Chapter III entitled: REGIME RELATING TO HONORARY CONSULAR OFFICERS AND CONSULAR POSTS HEADED BY SUCH OFFICERS. Take a read if you have the time

I probably know considerably more about the "powers" of Consular staff than you do, as I've had to take care of their security in the past. I am, however a bit confused by your reference which I am also very familiar with - it simply makes it clear that Hon.Cons have NO sort of immunity from arrest, search, detention, etc, except that under a few very limited circumstances they cannot be subpoenaed as a witness for what are agreed to be "official acts". It has nothing to do with "powers" or "emergency functions".

As I've said before, I respect the job you and Barry did as Hon.Cons, but please let's not BS about what Hon.Cons do and don't do.

[hm1973]

I probably know considerably more about the "powers" of Consular staff than you do, as I've had to take care of their security in the past. I am, however a bit confused by your reference which I am also very familiar with - it simply makes it clear that Hon.Cons have NO sort of immunity from arrest, search, detention, etc, except that under a few very limited circumstances they cannot be subpoenaed as a witness for what are agreed to be "official acts". It has nothing to do with "powers" or "emergency functions".

As I've said before, I respect the job you and Barry did as Hon.Cons, but please let's not BS about what Hon.Cons do and don't do.

Sorry I should have made myself clearer. I know and agree with you that Hon Cons have no powers whatsoever, I was simply highlighting the chapter in the convention as a point of interest.

One thing I did learn is that if an Hon Con is arrested by the Police, they are obligated to deal with you in a speedy manner, which means they can queue jump at the custody suite.....now that is power!!!!!

[evadgib]

Am I right in assuming that LeCharivari and Satcommlee are among the candidates that have submitted their CV's to wireless road?

[LeCharivari]

One thing I did learn is that if an Hon Con is arrested by the Police, they are obligated to deal with you in a speedy manner, which means they can queue jump at the custody suite.....now that is power!!!!!

That might have been what you were told but its completely untrue, like a considerable amount of the information some Consuls tell their Hon. Cons to boost their egos.

Hon. Cons have NO Consular immunity anywhere in any form whatsoever. The obligation to deal expeditiously with Embassy and Consular staff arrested or detained is specifically for Diplomatic Service Staff (cooks, drivers, butlers, etc), career Consular Officers, and Consular Employees (clerks, etc), and then it is only by bilateral agreement between certain countries.

Hon. Cons are singled out as NOT having ANY such privileges, even though they are Consular Employees - the clerk who worked in your office had them, as do the security guards at the Embassy and the Ambassador's two butlers, but whatever you might have been told you didn't. The details are actually in your own reference.

Similarly, I expect that you were told that you were not allowed to talk about any of the work you were called on to do, particularly individual cases. A myth designed to stop Consular staff and Hon. Cons spilling the bans about what the real Consular staff do (or don't do) and make them look important, and continued by many Hon. Cons for the same reason.

Hon. Cons are not security cleared, not vetted, and not signatories of or subject to the Official Secrets Act, and attorney/doctor client privilege doesn't apply. The only limitation is that Hon. Cons cannot be subpoenaed as witnesses about anything they did officially, but that doesn't stop them testifying or talking about anything they like to anyone they like if they want to. The only restriction is that they might lose their jobs if they do - and if they've already lost their jobs, they may not be invited to the next Embassy garden party.

[LeCharivari]

Am I right in assuming that LeCharivari and Satcommlee are among the candidates that have submitted their CV's to wireless road?

Maybe you're reading a different thread to me.

I've had no hesitation in trashing the Embassy for a long time and in ridiculing the revised post of Hon. Con (should that be Non. Con ?) in Pattaya since well before applications were due for the post - which, as far as I know, may still be under consideration. As far as I can see there's only one poster here who has expressed any interest in finding out who's got the job and who will get their 15 seconds of fame, but I have no idea whether that means he applied for the post or is simply filling media inches.

I have some knowledge of what Hon. Cons and Embassy staff do, as I mentioned, because " I've had to take care of their security in the past" and because I have some old school friends who still work at the FCO (not in Bangkok!) - that hardly means I want to join them, any more than if Gordon Ramsay or Marco Pierre White commented that a restaurant 's food was rubbish it would mean that they had applied to be the chef there.

I don't think that Brits have any more right to unnecessary help than anyone else and I think that people should take responsibility for themselves, but what annoys me is that Embassy staff are PAID to do certain things for Brits and they simply don't do them - they are SUPPOSED, for example, to "contact" any Brit who goes into hospital within 24 hours, but that simply never happens (usually ever, let alone within a day). When Gareth Davies died in a Bangkok hospital last year he had asked repeatedly for a visit by the Embassy in Bangkok, as had his brother in England who had contacted the Embassy, but no Embassy staff left their office to visit him “because he had access to a mobile phone they didn’t think a contact visit was necessary”, as Asif Ahmad later repeated in justification for their doing nothing (except add him to the list of British deaths, hospitalizations and Consular enquiries they had successfully dealt with).

I'm not complaining that I need more help - I'm complaining that these people aren't doing the job my taxes are paying for.

[hm1973]

One thing I did learn is that if an Hon Con is arrested by the Police, they are obligated to deal with you in a speedy manner, which means they can queue jump at the custody suite.....now that is power!!!!!

That might have been what you were told but its completely untrue, like a considerable amount of the information some Consuls tell their Hon. Cons to boost their egos.

Hon. Cons have NO Consular immunity anywhere in any form whatsoever. The obligation to deal expeditiously with Embassy and Consular staff arrested or detained is specifically for Diplomatic Service Staff (cooks, drivers, butlers, etc), career Consular Officers, and Consular Employees (clerks, etc), and then it is only by bilateral agreement between certain countries.

Hon. Cons are singled out as NOT having ANY such privileges, even though they are Consular Employees - the clerk who worked in your office had them, as do the security guards at the Embassy and the Ambassador's two butlers, but whatever you might have been told you didn't. The details are actually in your own reference.

Similarly, I expect that you were told that you were not allowed to talk about any of the work you were called on to do, particularly individual cases. A myth designed to stop Consular staff and Hon. Cons spilling the bans about what the real Consular staff do (or don't do) and make them look important, and continued by many Hon. Cons for the same reason.

Hon. Cons are not security cleared, not vetted, and not signatories of or subject to the Official Secrets Act, and attorney/doctor client privilege doesn't apply. The only limitation is that Hon. Cons cannot be subpoenaed as witnesses about anything they did officially, but that doesn't stop them testifying or talking about anything they like to anyone they like if they want to. The only restriction is that they might lose their jobs if they do - and if they've already lost their jobs, they may not be invited to the next Embassy garden party.

You seem to misunderstand my humour. I am of course fully aware that Hon Cons have no powers, nor did I want or need any during my time with the Embassy/FCO.

I was security checked when I joined, here in Thailand and in UK and my signature was lodged with the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. My signature could appear on a limited number of documents such as Affirmations of Freedom to Marry and Certified Copies of British Passports.

We were told that we were not allowed to speak to anyone about cases. This was not so we could feel important it was so all detail that was released to the public was done so in a controlled manner through the Embassy Press Office.

I am not trying to challenge everything you say I am just telling you how it was. You may have a different interpretation of the roles of an Hon Con to me. I am no expert, I just went with what I read in the FCO handbook and was told by my "superiors"

[LeCharivari]

Sorry to disappoint you (again!), HM, but you didn't have a "security check" - its typical of the BS that some Embassies and staff come up with, though.

The so-called "security check" for Hon. Cons and Locally Employed Staff (known as "lepers") consists of what was called a "basic" CRB check, or a BC when you had it - a very basic check for unspent convictions, nothing more. Its now called a Baseline Personnel Security Standard (BPSS), which is the standard Embassy check for LEPs (including Hon.Cons) and is unchanged:(unspent convictions only), lower than the DBS "standard" which includes spent convictions, cautions and reprimands.

For what its worth (very little, except to the Walts) the various levels of security checks are BPSS, Enhanced BPSS, Counter Terrorist Check (CTC), Security Check (SC), Developed Vetting (DV) and Positive Vetting (PV).

[marstons]

With all due respect to your work as Honorary Consul, I think you are deluding yourself here - the Embassy wasted no time in dispensing with your services once it was decided that your face didn't fit, so one thing you are NOT privy to is the goings on at the Embassy. I am still in regular contact with people at the Embassy, sometimes "business" and sometimes "pleasure"

Yes you are - the shooting in Haad Rin on 1 Jan is a Thai police matter and the only Embassy/Consular involvement is accompanying the mother to identify the body and passing on information from the Thai police to next of kin. Sorry I was wrong

Interviews for Embassy posts and selection, as you should know, usually takes around three weeks so should have been completed well before Christmas, but appointments are not confirmed until "training" is complete. Not true. I received my formal training about 5 months after my appointment. I was lucky to have been informally trained by Barry Kenyon 3 weeks before I started which he did out of the kindness of his own heart and was not asked to do it by the Embassy. If he had not helped me I would have been in real trouble when I started A far more likely "speculation" is that the Ambassador will make the announcement at his address to the Expats Club, due later this month. I hope that is the case, its a great way to do it!

"powers" ??? Just what "powers" are those? and just what "emergency functions" ?? You're right about powers but Honorary Consular Officers are mentioned in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. It's Chapter III entitled: REGIME RELATING TO HONORARY CONSULAR OFFICERS AND CONSULAR POSTS HEADED BY SUCH OFFICERS. Take a read if you have the time

so your saying the British Embassey are passing information onto you in a social and business contacts. The matter of the appointment should be confidential and be only privvy to the people Employed by her Majesties goverment not just anybody. I will pass on my concerns about your staement to the FO as in my eyes it is totally wrong to do this. The appointment should have been announced by now but probably to the social side of things around Christmas held things up.

[Rimmer]

I regret this is becoming a private argument, please stop it and agree to differ, thank you.

[LeCharivari]

The real reasons for the delay are now clear.

A number of initial appointees for the post of Hon Consul in Pattaya (two, now possibly three) turned down the post once they were told just how much the duties of the revised post had been "downgraded" (emasculated); each time the new provisional appointee had to be approved by the FCO.

The FCO also had to approve a number of new posts in Bangkok which will now do virtually all the work previously done by the Hon Consul (and briefly the Vice Consul) in Pattaya. These include a full time locally employed Senior Pro Consul, two Pro Consuls and at least one Consular Assistant (posts are now being advertised, salaries between 20,000 to 30,000 baht a month after tax, located in Bangkok, most or all will be Thai nationals). Duties include all prison/custody visits and all hospital visits/contact and emergencies. Most hospital contact will be by telephone (no change, except in Pattaya where HM and BK made personal visits) and where this is not possible if a patient is too ill the new Hon Consul will simply hold the phone and pass messages to and fro.

The Hon Consuls' responsibilities in Phuket and Koh Samui remain unchanged for the moment, with them still retaining some leeway for initiative and a stipend, while the British Consulate/British Council in Chaing Mai may be upgraded with a Vice Consul or Pro Consul when the present Hon Consul comes to the end of his term (the Consulate/Council in Chaing Mai already has considerably more full time staff than there were in Pattaya, with more responsibilities). The new Hon Consul in Pattaya will not be given a stipend (and HM was only given half that given to BK, for what little it was worth).

Essentially the new plan will not allow the Hon Consul any room for initiative or responsibility, with all the work being done by full time FCO staff based in Bangkok under the watchful eye of the Embassy, with the Hon Consul acting as little more than a local guide, arranging things for the "real" staff. Most people probably won't notice any difference, but those in difficulties will probably miss the personal touch and the local knowledge afforded by HM and BK (the Vice Consul had no prior experience of Pattaya at all, which was why she left, but as the previous Ambassador let slip in an unguarded TV interview she at least had "pals" at the Embassy).

How are the mighty fallen ...

[billd766]

I am ready to be the Hon Cons up here near Khampaeng Phet as there are about 10 of us Brits.

At least if you came to see me you would get a free coffee.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

At least if you came to see me you would get a free coffee.

Sorry. It's Pimms or nothing as far as I'm concerned.

[billd766]

At least if you came to see me you would get a free coffee.

Sorry. It's Pimms or nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Dream on pal. I live out in Nakhon Nowhere. It is 6km to the nearest 7/11 and you want Pimms?