Coping With Sexism In Thailand

[oiuy1]

Hello fellow female expats. I moved to Thailand last year and have been working in Bangkok for the past several months. Over that time I've become increasingly frustrated with the expat work culture here. I want to vent, but I also need the perspectives of other women who have been here longer than me. I'd also love to hear from men who don't think that I should leave because I'm not fine with being treated like a object. I'm getting career value out of Thailand, I like living here, and I'm not leaving.

Some things I've encountered in the last year:

- Networking often occurs in male-only spaces such as hooker bars, Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, golf trips, poker games, etc. I am not invited, cutting me off from the benefits of this networking. Networking that I am allowed to attend is mostly binge drinking and talking shit about women. I'm mainly talking about informal, after hours networking, not formal networking venues like Chamber of Commerce events.

- Managers (male expats) are free from gender discrimination laws and routinely objectify female employees, Thai women on the street, etc. They get in the personal space of female employees. This would be considered sexual harassment in the West. They talk so much shit about Thai women it's amazing.

- I moved here with my long term male partner. Everyone likes to tell me how I can't compete with a Thai woman and it is only a matter of time before he leaves me for one. Or alternatively, they tell me that women professionals don't last long in Asia and I should leave.

It's these constant efforts to devalue me that I need to address.

If you're a woman who's living in Thailand (or has lived here) what do you do to mitigate the sexism here? How do you experience Thailand as a foreign woman?

[Hedghog]

No.1 Its great here with no PC overkill,(speak free)

No.2 Do you actually play golf ?

No.3 Would you want to be invited on a stag night,to Nana,Cowboy,etc.

No.4 Blokes are blokes.

No.5 sexual harassment, goes both ways.

No.6 you have a long term partner that you go home to (what's the problem.

No.7 you left all what you have mentioned behind you in the west,

Also you have only been in country a few months,relax,or you will be going home,soon.

Yes I am a man this thread was floating about in general forum.

Good luck.

[Fookhaht]

THIS is the society in which you have chosen to work (click link to another TV post).

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5991987

Sorry, I'm a male too, but couldn't resist posting this link here after sympathetically reading your OP.

Unfortunately, the cultural environment gives free reign to the less-PC inclinations of a lot of expats who live and work here--especially when many Thai women accept or even encourage it.

It's a tough go if you are fresh from a PC country.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Fookhaht

[oiuy1]

And it took under half an hour, but Hedghog is a common example of men brushing off sexism as an issue. Hedghog, you aren't effected by sexism here, you don't have to deal with it, and if you have nothing else to do than defend it, you're part of the problem.

[oiuy1]

THIS is the society in which you have chosen to work (click link to another TV post).

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5991987

Sorry, I'm a male too, but couldn't resist posting this link here after sympathetically reading your OP.

Unfortunately, the cultural environment gives free reign to the less-PC inclinations of a lot of expats who live and work here--especially when many Thai women accept or even encourage it.

It's a tough go if you are fresh from a PC country.

I agree, and I'd like to note that "less-PC inclinations" is a very PC way of saying sexist, racist and prone to harassment. My Thai female coworkers tolerate it, and given the cultural context of Thailand I understand why. Also, in environments where women have considerably less power (like here), it's common to see women try to gain that power back through sexual attraction. That's why you don't find ambitious, intelligent women with power allowing balding middle managers to make loud comments about their ass in the office.

[Hedghog]

I have no axe to grind.

Seems you have.

When I moved here I left the western world behind.

I enjoy every minute new experience, new culture,new mindset.

You can't change a country you are a guest in by burning your bra.

Close the door on the way out.

Don't leave the toilet seat down.

[IrishIvan]

Yes I experienced sexism when I lived in Australia. But I disagree with you. I find that Thailand is different, its tottally opposite. I feel like the shoe is on the other foot, and as a male I am not discriminated against at all

[bobo42]

Well.., Hedgehog did not put it well, but on the major point, he's pretty right. The major point being - it is what it is. Unfortunately, that is the way of things here, and there is basically nothing you can do to change the big picture. You either need to find a way to live with it, or I imagine you will find yourself very unhappy.

I think you should concentrate on looking for tips on how to improve your own personal situation, rather than trying to affect overall change. What ways can you work within the current culture to try to rise above it. I know that's a crappy, impersonal answer, but maybe it might lead you in a better direction. If you are trying to change the culture here, no matter how unfair it may be, you're going to find yourself banging your head against a brick wall. Perhaps by finding a better path for yourself, you might inspire other ladies to do the same? I think that is the best case you can hope for.

And yes, I'm a guy, just trying to give you a reasonable reply.

[oiuy1]

Well.., Hedgehog did not put it well, but on the major point, he's pretty right. The major point being - it is what it is. Unfortunately, that is the way of things here, and there is basically nothing you can do to change the big picture. You either need to find a way to live with it, or I imagine you will find yourself very unhappy.

I think you should concentrate on looking for tips on how to improve your own personal situation, rather than trying to affect overall change. What ways can you work within the current culture to try to rise above it. I know that's a crappy, impersonal answer, but maybe it might lead you in a better direction. If you are trying to change the culture here, no matter how unfair it may be, you're going to find yourself banging your head against a brick wall. Perhaps by finding a better path for yourself, you might inspire other ladies to do the same? I think that is the best case you can hope for.

I said nothing in my original post about changing the culture, just that I wanted advice and perspective on navigating/coping with the environment here. I'm not going to change Thailand, that's up to Thai people and Thai feminism. Given the environment, I want to mitigate the sexism as best I can so I'm not at a constant disadvantage. And thank you for giving a reasonable reply.

[Boo]

the op didn't ask how to change Thailand, only for advice & experiences of other ex pat women.

Any male posters will have zero idea on what it is like so anyone wanting to bitch about western culture or how pc it might be in the west is not the discussion.

This here is not the place to air YOUR issues with women having the right to live free from aggression, harassment & discrimination so either contribute in a civil manner or stay away.

Hope this is clear enough cause I have a zero tolerance for twattism, so be warned.

[QED]

Twattism? haha, classic. Do they still have that post of the day award in Bedlam?

[isawasnake]

I would just always ask yourself one simple question: what is the path of least resistance. Or, as Bruce Lee would put it, "be like water my friend". The way I see the world, for every difficulty you face, there must also be an advantage, or equal and opposite reaction. You are in a unique position if you think about it; the people in unique spots are usually more successful. Try to find the positive aspect of all these situations.

[JimShortz]

I've tried hunting out a definition of "twattism" but can't find one anywhere. I am sure posting in a language other than English is against forum rules. Can I request a mod to remove Boo's foreign Language comments please.

Boo, please read forum rules carefully, and try to adhere to them closely...

:-)

[mike123ca]

Networking often occurs in male-only spaces such as hooker bars, Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, golf trips, poker games, etc. I am not invited, cutting me off from the benefits of this networking. Networking that I am allowed to attend is mostly binge drinking and talking shit about women. I'm mainly talking about informal, after hours networking, not formal networking venues like Chamber of Commerce events.

- Managers (male expats) are free from gender discrimination laws and routinely objectify female employees, Thai women on the street, etc. They get in the personal space of female employees. This would be considered sexual harassment in the West. They talk so much shit about Thai women it's amazing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sounds like you don't like the place where you work.

If it was me, I would be looking elsewhere. Life is too short to be miserable.

I would just move on. Yes, I know, it's easy to say, but remember

it's not impossible to do.

[Ave]

What you are experiencing is not uncommon over here but as you would like to have other female expats' opinion I'll give you mine. I have lived, worked and socialised in "dirty" Pattaya for five years now and I have mostly met western guys who have shown me lots of respect an offered their friendship and valuable advice to me. I'm not expecting them to fancy me or anything as I'm not interested in them that way but so far I've not been in a crowd that has excluded or belittled me as a female.

It can be a shock in the beginning as it was for me the first time I moved here but I learnt to appreciate my new environment and learn from it. You are lucky to have a partner with you. And I think that if your relationship is strong you have nothing to fear. I totally agree with isawasnake.

[Fookhaht]

I've tried hunting out a definition of "twattism" but can't find one anywhere. I am sure posting in a language other than English is against forum rules. Can I request a mod to remove Boo's foreign Language comments please.

Boo, please read forum rules carefully, and try to adhere to them closely...

:-)

Twattism: twah'-tizm; being in the state of exhibiting the behavior of a jerk.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Fookhaht

[sbk]

Just as an FYI this thread is in Ladies now and we do follow the rules here rather strictly.

Secondly, it would seem to me OP is talking about Western expat colleagues yes? Not Thai? If not then its got nothing to do with Thai culture does it? But rather the good old boys reasserting their outdated attitudes simply because Thai women are too polite to tell them to take a hike.

[MrRealDeal]

All of Thailand is not like this ..... I can assure you the men at our company don't network at hooker bars or nana plaza !

I can't offer much help except to tell you that not every place is like that to that extent , where my wife works would be pretty much the complete opposite of that.

[TommoPhysicist]

This here is not the place to air YOUR issues with women having the right to live free from aggression, harassment & discrimination so either contribute in a civil manner or stay away.

I was under the impression that western women in Thailand suffered very little from aggression and harassment aimed at them, not sure about discrimination. In Thailand I think we suffer much more discrimination as non-Asian people than in any gender specific way. However, when I worked for a firm in the city of London, we often had blokes nights out, and we didn't think to invite the female employees. The female employees also had girls nights out where they never though to invite us.

I think we have to just accept some activities, arranged at work (but not by work) are not suitable for everyone.

Those activities arranged (and paid for) by management as a works jolly, everyone was welcome and the venues were suitable for all.

Edited January 6, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[frankold]

Whats the name of the Co.? Are there any jobs going?

[IrishIvan]

Networking often occurs in male-only spaces such as hooker bars, Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, golf trips, poker games, etc. I am not invited, cutting me off from the benefits of this networking. Networking that I am allowed to attend is mostly binge drinking and talking shit about women. I'm mainly talking about informal, after hours networking, not formal networking venues like Chamber of Commerce events.

- Managers (male expats) are free from gender discrimination laws and routinely objectify female employees, Thai women on the street, etc. They get in the personal space of female employees. This would be considered sexual harassment in the West. They talk so much shit about Thai women it's amazing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sounds like you don't like the place where you work.

If it was me, I would be looking elsewhere. Life is too short to be miserable.

I would just move on. Yes, I know, it's easy to say, but remember

it's not impossible to do.

I think that it would be hard to employ male employees as most of them are doing male orientated jobs like driving trucks and working in the construction industries. Its just life here. There isnt so many men working in offices. They probably wouldnt do that type of job anyway

[Berkshire]

Just as an FYI this thread is in Ladies now and we do follow the rules here rather strictly.

Secondly, it would seem to me OP is talking about Western expat colleagues yes? Not Thai? If not then its got nothing to do with Thai culture does it? But rather the good old boys reasserting their outdated attitudes simply because Thai women are too polite to tell them to take a hike.

You're stating what should be obvious, but clearly, many of the TV membership don't read too well. Or perhaps their reading comprehension is severely lacking.

I feel for the OP and would say that the unseemly behavior of your colleagues is extremely unprofessional. I work with professionals both Thai and western and we would never "network" or socialize in hooker bars. The problem with some of your farang colleagues, especially those that park themselves frequently in girly bars, is that they've become convinced that they're God's gift to womenhood. Unfortunately, they then seem to have this difficulty in separating normal women (Thai and farang) from those in the business. And yes, Thai women are usually too polite to tell them what they really think. You (and like-minded western men--surely there must be one or two) should do that deed, and right soon.

[Morakot]

- Networking often occurs in male-only spaces such as hooker bars, Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, golf trips, poker games, etc. I am not invited, cutting me off from the benefits of this networking. Networking that I am allowed to attend is mostly binge drinking and talking shit about women. I'm mainly talking about informal, after hours networking, not formal networking venues like Chamber of Commerce events.

Thanks for sharing this. This sounds exactly like the situation at corporate executive level in the UK and US. It tends to be extremely difficult to get to meet at more neutral places and times and have events structured around less offending activities. Persistent pushing for reasonable alternatives, coupled with some tolerance might be the way forward.

[kristquark]

Hello ... Cheer up (A guy too but want to tell you these)

1. Be strong not all the people here are like that

2. Go to the park (anywhere) morning or evening that is the best place in this city. (trust me I'm Thai :-)

3. Try to find some Thai girl friends so you can find a difference society

4. About your partner think it this way " you are more value than to have to concern about thing like that if he really go with someone else what different Thai or non-Thai girl, It just he just not good enough for you :-)

[andie]

As a fellow female expat I can relate to some of what you say, although thankfully much of it is not applicable to my company, nor most of those that other female expat friends work in.

To pick up on your specific points:

- I've not found networking to occur in girlie bars, etc. at MNC's or with large Thai/Asian companies. With clients it is centred round going for a nice meal, very occasionally a drink after (but never a girlie bar), or golf. And yes, this is where I feel somewhat left out as a significant amount of business and networking both with clients and internally happens on the golf course and the expat guys will go and play golf at the weekend with each other. It creates a bit of a barrier as you have this expat golfing management clique. That said I do not think it's too dissimilar to the West as a lot of business gets conducted on the golf course there too! The doing business in girlie bars, in my experience (and also that of my dad and uncle who do a lot of business in the Asia), seems to be limited to Thai based SMEs dealing with other SMEs or low level 'management' in a bigger corporation. It sounds like you have been unfortunate and ended up working with a bunch of folk that have been here too long and lost touch with reality, or they are working with clients/customers of a similarly low standing.

- The sexual harassment thing absolutely doesn't happen in my office, nor does talking badly about women, Thai, Asian, Western or otherwise. I work in a very male dominated profession and find Thailand quite refreshing. Whereas the gender balance in our London and NYC office is 25% female:75% male amongst professional staff here in BK (our Asian HQ) it's 80% female:20% male! I reiterate: you're working with a bunch of wanke_rs.

- The 'he'll leave you' comments and 'you won't last here'. Ignore them: sour grapes. The muppets spouting this nonsense were warped individuals before they even set foot in the Kingdom. The myths that perpetuate this nonsense arise from when folks mix in very narrow social circles and start to believe 'their world' to be the only reality. Thailand attracts a diverse range of people, alas the most vocal minority tends to be the elderly male keyboard warrior or sexpat. For everyone of them there are several more folks here in happy stable relationships leading very normal lives, often with families, and too busy getting on with life to feel the need to troll here or make insidious comments whilst out and about

My advice: if you're working for a MNC and have been transferred here then speak to your HR department from where you came and address the inconsistencies in global policy, but do so professionally. If you have an appraisal process then also use this to raise these issues in a constructive manner.

I hate to say it though but it sounds like you have ended up in a crappy workplace/company and if there is no recourse available from an overseas HQ then I would find something else: life is too short to deal with idiots like you describe when there are plenty of other opportunities around. And on the bright side it is still far easier for a professional expat woman to find work here than it is for a man as there are never any questions marks about what your real motivations are for being here and generally you're treated with a lot more respect.

[drnkurmlkshk]

And yes, Thai women are usually too polite to tell them what they really think. You (and like-minded western men--surely there must be one or two) should do that deed, and right soon.

This is the worst advice in the thread, IMO. Fighting fire with fire in your work place is never going to help you, and will often hurt you. It is also extremely unprofessional.

Anyways op:

1. The networking thing is not really a valid complaint. It is inevitable that not all networking opportunities will be available to you. Realize that a big part of why many guys move out here (not all) is that they do like things like the girly bars. So trying to convince them to stop doing the thing they love out here is going to be a fruitless endeavor.

Instead of focusing on the opportunities that you *don't* have you should put more effort into the ones you do have. You shouldn't be excluded from poker games or golfing, just based on the activity alone. I've done both in Thailand and it is almost always both men and women present. It sounds like your coworkers might not have thought to invite you or perhaps there is some bad blood already that you're not mentioning. Perhaps they really do just hate western women and you're screwed... but a charismatic enough woman would be able to overcome that. It certainly might not be fair, but you could treat this whole thing as an opportunity to improve yourself.

Also you could try to come up with your own networking options. Entice the people that you think will help advance your career to come do things that are an option for everyone.

2. Gender discrimination laws are a two way street. I am an attractive fit "body builder" type guy and I've had women grope my muscles many times, not even just in a night life setting. I don't cause any sort of fuss over it, simply try to deflect their advances with a smile. And please don't say something as stupid as, "But it is different you are a man," because that is real discrimination. I am actually totally okay with it and don't see the problem with it, as long as it is fair both ways. So I won't go off on some anti PC tirade here, just pointing out an obvious culture difference. For comparison, this type of thing only happened to me in clubs and whatnot in the USA (a setting where it goes both ways too).

3. Their generalization is not true for all western women, but it is just stating a simple truth. I know of very few long term western female professionals out here. Yes they do exist, but if we are looking at numbers and being honest for a moment, it is clear which gender actually sees their life out here as an improvement. As for the part of competing with Thai women that is just a bunch of nonsense and your race has nothing to do with that. Many guys miss smart, motivated, independent women out here and I bet you're one of those. Not only that but western women are considering a real prize for Thai men and are considering highly attractive (as long as they are fit just like their Thai counterpart). So you can safely ignore those idiotic claims. Also from a professional standpoint I would argue that learning to ignore or joke off these types of comments will do you a lot better in the long run than complaining to HR, even if you were in the west where they'd clearly side with you. This is a way to alienate other coworkers when word gets around. Again, yes, it is not fair... but it still might be what is best for your career.

Edited January 8, 2013 by drnkurmlkshk

[frankold]

Yeah.. there's almost always women present at guys home poker games and on the golf course NOT!

Edited January 9, 2013 by frankold

[Berkshire]

2. Gender discrimination laws are a two way street. I am an attractive fit "body builder" type guy and I've had women grope my muscles many times, not even just in a night life setting. I don't cause any sort of fuss over it, simply try to deflect their advances with a smile. And please don't say something as stupid as, "But it is different you are a man," because that is real discrimination.

Surely, you can't believe what you're shoveling. There is a HUGE difference between a man and a woman's perception of a great many things, such as groping and physical touching, cat-calling, and the like. This is not a PC thing, but a factual thing. Unless I'm misreading you, you sound like you're from the dark ages. This makes your credibility suspect if you can't grasp this basic concept.

[drnkurmlkshk]

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say Berkshire.

And frankold the poker games I've been to there are plenty of women present. I haven't played that much gold in Thailand, though.

[fletchsmile]

To OP,

There's a lot of things in play here which probably extend beyond sexism, and include a move to a different country and different culture and general upheavals in life. Sounds like you could use some deeper friendships than you'll get on a forum. A couple of basic points I'd make though:

In the workplace:

If you're experiencing sexual harassment towards you, don't tolerate it and in the same way you would back home take it up with HR and your line manager.

Be careful not to rush in and judge behaviours between other people though. Values are different here, and you'll run into a lot of problems if you expect people to behave and interact among themselves how you think they "should" in the west. One thing that goes a long way in Thailand is learning to be less judgemental.

In social settings:

There are a lot of decent guys out here who welcome female expat friends. Just be careful you don't come across as too hostile or high maintenance in social settings because of the difficult time you're having with some guys here.

Many of us are happy to leave the political correctness and sexism behind when coming to Thailand, as the values are different here. As you make friends and get to know people, you'll find support, but people who've been in Thailand a while (like Thais) often don't want to get into confrontations and uncomfortable topics, particularly with someone they've just met.

Perhaps bear in mind also that what you see as "networking" your colleagues see simply as socialising and going out with friends and having a good time, unwinding and actually getting away from work.

Edited January 9, 2013 by fletchsmile