Smoke, Smog, Dust 2013 Chiang Mai

[tangcoral]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

[TommoPhysicist]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

[chiang mai]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Is absolutely the wrong answer!!

Go google "the dangers of high PM10" and read what you find, here, this'll get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates

[tangcoral]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Okay since I'm in that group, I would literally need to run a marathon everyday for a whole year to be considered a cancer risk correct?

A few days of leisurely outdoor walking is not considered a cancer risk correct? Some of the post hear scare me so I was just making sure.

[chiang mai]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Okay since I'm in that group, I would literally need to run a marathon everyday for a whole year to be considered a cancer risk correct?

A few days of leisurely outdoor walking is not considered a cancer risk correct? Some of the post hear scare me so I was just making sure.

You'll forgive me but Tommo is speaking utter rubbish on this point:

Polluted air comprises particles of a range of sizes but PM10 is most commonly known and is fairly easy to measure. The real danger however is in particles that measure less than PM2.5 since these are the ones that can bypass the human respiratory defence mechanisms and lodge themselves in the lungs and airways and they include carcinogens. The volume of PM2.5 in any mass of polluted air is mathematically derived from the PM10 figure since PM2.5 is actually quite difficult to measure directly, there is not believed to be any minimum threshold of exposure to PM2.5 concentrations before they become a direct threat to health in anyone, young, old, fit and helathy etc etc..

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Okay since I'm in that group, I would literally need to run a marathon everyday for a whole year to be considered a cancer risk correct?

A few days of leisurely outdoor walking is not considered a cancer risk correct? Some of the post hear scare me so I was just making sure.

yeah you will wake up tomorrow with cancer after a longer walk ;-)

It's long term risk before your DNA will mutate into a cancer.

It's mostly inflammation risk which causes many diseases including cancer but it takes time to progress.

What country are you from? Just curious.

[TommoPhysicist]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Okay since I'm in that group, I would literally need to run a marathon everyday for a whole year to be considered a cancer risk correct?

A few days of leisurely outdoor walking is not considered a cancer risk correct? Some of the post hear scare me so I was just making sure.

If you are 5, it may increase your risk of cancer when you are 50.

If you are 55, it may increase your risk of cancer at age 110.

I'm not all that concerned at the prospect of having increased cancer risk at 110 ....... I don't expect to be around then.

Edited March 21, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[rene123]

A friend who just came back from Fang told me that Chiang Rai was already at a critical level... what ever that means. I don't need someone to tell me when smog is bad. This is worse than anything I saw in Los Angeles. Thankfully, I'll be back in rainy BC in a few weeks and I will be able to breath clear air and drink pure water from a mountian spring that i know of in the mountains. I might even get some snow skiing in before winter ends in the mountains. Spring skiing can be the best. I'll be thinking of all you poor sods breathing smoke when I'm back home. I'll return in November or October when the air is clear again.

[KRS1]

eyes were actually burning this morning and my motorcycle is running better with the smoke...<deleted>?

well...looks like ol' Yingluck didnt come through for us...promises of no more smoke and all.

Edited March 21, 2013 by KRS1

[mania]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

You know I have been trying to get a handle on the facts myself.

Only because I do try to exercise daily & for the most part still do.

I did have a stomach ailment the day before yesterday & not sure if it is

connected but I rarely have any problems at all. So rare in fact I know the last one was

in December 2007

But anyway,

back in this post

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/611721-smoke-smog-dust-2013-chiang-mai/page-7#entry6213464

I noticed from a report someone linked it said,

On the basis of the average reduction in the PM2.5 concentration (6.52 μg per cubic meter) in the metropolitan areas included in this analysis and the effect estimate from model 4 in Table 2, the average increase in life expectancy attributable to the reduced levels of air pollution was approximately 0.4 year.....

In metropolitan areas where reductions in PM2.5 were 13 to 14 μg per cubic meter, the contribution of improvements in air quality to increases in life expectancy may have been as much as 0.82 year

So that seems like a non event.

Meaning 4-8 months shorter life in the bigger picture does not seem like something to

get too alarmed over.

But, I am not clear on the measurements given.

They cite two examples 6.25 & 13-14 ug per cubic meter averages

Yet when I look at http://aqmthai.com/

They show today's average as 57.41 for PM2.5 particles today in Chiang Mai

so a very large difference of about six times as great a density

So.... While I will not spend all my time worrying about it as I think stress kills just as fast.

I will try to use common sense & judge whether I will subject myself to

deep breathing like when exercising in this kind of air if the day is bad enough

[mania]

my motorcycle is running better with the smoke...<deleted>?

Must be unburnt fuel in the air & your bike is making use of it

[chiang mai]

Sorry for my ignorant post but how bad is pm10 of 200+ can anyone put it into a nice perspective

I can see why this would affect the young, elderly and those with respiratory issues but for the young healthy adult, I don't see this as being any critical than a few days of second hand smoke or is it worse?

Should I be locking myself indoors with all entry points sealed?

It's not a problem for normally healthy people.

Okay since I'm in that group, I would literally need to run a marathon everyday for a whole year to be considered a cancer risk correct?

A few days of leisurely outdoor walking is not considered a cancer risk correct? Some of the post hear scare me so I was just making sure.

If you are 5, it may increase your risk of cancer when you are 50.

If you are 55, it may increase your risk of cancer at age 110.

I'm not all that concerned at the prospect of having increased cancer risk at 110 ....... I don't expect to be around then.

I have no idea what the lag time is between breathing PM2.5 concentrations and devloping cancer. But I do know that the lag time between inhaling PM2.5 and developing coronary artery disease is a period of under five years. I also know that same lag period when applied to brochitis is measured in days.

[TommoPhysicist]

I have no idea what the lag time is between breathing PM2.5 concentrations and devloping cancer. But I do know that the lag time between inhaling PM2.5 and developing coronary artery disease is a period of under five years. I also know that same lag period when applied to brochitis is measured in days.

CHD mainly happens to obese people with high blood pressure and an unhealthy lifestyle.

It's not a problem for normal healthy people (as I already stated).

Same for bronchitis.

If you are a fat, diabetic, beer swilling smoker who never exercises ...... CM is not the place to be in smoky season.

Edited March 21, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[chiang mai]

I have no idea what the lag time is between breathing PM2.5 concentrations and devloping cancer. But I do know that the lag time between inhaling PM2.5 and developing coronary artery disease is a period of under five years. I also know that same lag period when applied to brochitis is measured in days.

CHD mainly happens to obese people with high blood pressure and an unhealthy lifestyle.

It's not a problem for normal healthy people (as I already stated).

Same for bronchitis.

If you are a fat, diabetic, beer swilling smoker who never exercises ...... CM is not the place to be in smoky season.

Is also the wrong answer! Anyone seriously interested in an answer to the health issues associated with PM2.5 is advised to google the subject and seek independant testimony rather than listen to the current exchange which I agree is somewhat pointless and boring.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

it's really complicated to know about effects.

What are a persons genetics and epi-genetics?

What is a persons baseline inflammation levels?

How well do they eat?

How fast is their detoxification rate based on their lifestyle? clean water consumption etc.

Everything being equal it's going to raise inflammation and oxidation which will cause an increase in many different diseases and aging.

Where it gets tricky is the modification of lifestyle in the face of air pollution.

If a person reduced other areas of inflammation such as quitting smoking, reducing alcohol consumption, decreasing sugar, increasing intake of antioxidants, stress reduction, level of quality sleep etc etc.

By modifying other areas of lifestyle the air pollution might not increase a given persons disease risk at all.

It's very specific health risk that needs to be taken in larger context of overall lifestyle habits.

Everything being equal it's not going to help a persons health situation.

[chiang mai]

it's really complicated to know about effects.

What are a persons genetics and epi-genetics?

What is a persons baseline inflammation levels?

How well do they eat?

How fast is their detoxification rate based on their lifestyle? clean water consumption etc.

Everything being equal it's going to raise inflammation and oxidation which will cause an increase in many different diseases and aging.

Where it gets tricky is the modification of lifestyle in the face of air pollution.

If a person reduced other areas of inflammation such as quitting smoking, reducing alcohol consumption, decreasing sugar, increasing intake of antioxidants, stress reduction, level of quality sleep etc etc.

By modifying other areas of lifestyle the air pollution might not increase a given persons disease risk at all.

It's very specific health risk that needs to be taken in larger context of overall lifestyle habits.

Everything being equal it's not going to help a persons health situation.

Agreed, but we also know that there's no positive effect associated with anyone being exposed to pariculate matter, only often unquantafiable negative effects, that in itself should be enough for anyone.

[Rasseru]

. . . Thankfully, I'll be back in rainy BC in a few weeks and I will be able to breath clear air and drink pure water from a mountian spring that i know of in the mountains. . . . I'll be thinking of all you poor sods breathing smoke when I'm back home. . . .

If you don't mind, rene123, and certainly if you want your thinking to be well-founded, think of me rather breathing the clear (and warm) air of Bali while you're back home. Cuz that's where I'm a-gonna be next month.

[TommoPhysicist]

Is also the wrong answer! Anyone seriously interested in an answer to the health issues associated with PM2.5 is advised to google the subject and seek independant testimony rather than listen to the current exchange which I agree is somewhat pointless and boring.

You link to wiki shows your level of expertise, anyone with the slightest credibility would be linking to peer reviewed scientific studies.

I agree your scare tactics to push forward a personal agenda are both pointless and boring.

[Rasseru]

If you are a fat, diabetic, beer swilling smoker who never exercises ...... CM is not the place to be in smoky season.

Um, hello? If you are those things, nowhere is the place to be. And where you will be, generally speaking, sooner rather than later.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Some answers:

Yes that is a pick value but it tells you how bad it can get!

The reading for Chiang mai today around 14:00 is 224 ug/m3..........and it was pretty smokey, actually I think I never seen it like this anywhere else beside Kuala Lumpur and Sumatra in 2005. At 300 ug/m3 they closed all the schools within affected areas and advised everybody to stay indoor! (in KL).

Which would have been an average daily value of 300, yes. Again, for comparisons you need to use the daily average.

And I'd keep kids inside (or, go on holiday) well below that level, actually.

and nobody really knows when the season ends because predicting rain is no easy task. If it doesn't start really raining until May then its early in the season. Historically that would be unusual but 2 years ago it rained and rained thru March so this season stuff is not exactly etched in stone.

Does the burning decrease after Sonkran if it doesn't start raining?

I am hoping the rain starts much much sooner.

No, no. There are changes in the weather and/or in the burning that cause things to end in April, even when there is no significant rain. Some people say they expect smog until May, but this has never, ever happened. Even in the worst years it ends early April, well before significant rains start. (before the worst of the hot season starts, actually)

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

i

"Agreed, but we also know that there's no positive effect associated with anyone being exposed to pariculate matter, only often unquantafiable negative effects, that in itself should be enough for anyone."

yeah and who wants to live like a saint just to enjoy air pollution.. not me. not at all.

I do think however that the seasonal pollution could be turned into a positive if a caused a person to clean up their lifestyle and habits due to the pressures of the air pollution season.

If a person really made changes to cope with the bad period and carried those good habits into the rest of the year it could turn into a overall benefit.. It's a stretch but doable.

Crisis equals opportunity.

Unfortunately I doubt many will do that.

Edited March 21, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[chiang mai]

Is also the wrong answer! Anyone seriously interested in an answer to the health issues associated with PM2.5 is advised to google the subject and seek independant testimony rather than listen to the current exchange which I agree is somewhat pointless and boring.

You link to wiki shows your level of expertise, anyone with the slightest credibility would be linking to peer reviewed scientific studies.

I agree your scare tactics to push forward a personal agenda are both pointless and boring.

There's no personal agenda here and I'm not going to waste very much time at all trying to find decent papers/studies to disprove your claims, most posters/viewers will not need to be convinced that there are no negative health aspects to absorbing Pm2.5, but I couldn't stand by and let your claim of, "it's OK, not a problem" stand without some sort of challenge. As for scare tactics: indeed, people, everyone, should be scared at being in the midst of such poor quality air.

[T_Dog]

It doesn't take much time with Google to find papers on how unhealthy this stuff is that we are breathing. I took a hard bike ride in the smoke a few years ago and got quite ill which taught me to not exercise when the PM10 levels are up there.

[Rancid]

Just got back from Ayutaya, better down there but still hazy. As to health issues, I aluded before that many go into denial about the shortcomings here perhaps as a way of justifying their decision to be here. Whatever, if they also want to believe breathing this toxic sludge is harmless then go and believe it. It seems to have joined the ranks of politics and religion.

[ianf]

I have been ill for two days and my eyes are sore and swollen. Huge amount of toxins in the air.

[MESmith]

The rice farmers finished their burning months ago, so they're probably not the main culprit. There's forest fires for mushrooms, and then there's the corn farmers. Loads of corn grown now in the hills, especially between CM & CR. When do they burn off their waste? A lot of dead matter after corn harvest. Can't they be persuaded to grow something else? Or is corn too easy to grow?

[Rasseru]

Is it just me or does it seem to be a little cooler on the days when the smoke is thickest?

I don't want to come across as Pollyanna-ish or anything like that, but could this be a silver lining in our cloud?

[MESmith]

Is it just me or does it seem to be a little cooler on the days when the smoke is thickest?

I don't want to come across as Pollyanna-ish or anything like that, but could this be a silver lining in our cloud?

It's cooler 'cos the sun doesn't get through. I'd rather have the sun & clear air. Same temperature inside my house whatever. There are no benefits to this filth

[seesip]

It doesn't take much time with Google to find papers on how unhealthy this stuff is that we are breathing. I took a hard bike ride in the smoke a few years ago and got quite ill which taught me to not exercise when the PM10 levels are up there.

Agreed. Regardless of the long term effects, the short term ones are hard to ignore: burning eyes, headache, inner ear ache, all from two days ago when the levels were hovering around 115. I tried running a few days ago and there's a big impact on lung capacity. Hoping for rain but the weather reports don't sound very promising.

[Rasseru]

Is it just me or does it seem to be a little cooler on the days when the smoke is thickest?

I don't want to come across as Pollyanna-ish or anything like that, but could this be a silver lining in our cloud?

It's cooler 'cos the sun doesn't get through. I'd rather have the sun & clear air. Same temperature inside my house whatever. There are no benefits to this filth

Oh, I would rather have the sun and clear air too, but as long as I am not able to make that choice, I am going to enjoy the benefit -- for me it is one -- of it being cooler out of doors. Unlike in your case, it is not the same temperature inside my place whatever. The two air filtration machines I have there keep the air inside nice and clean -- that and the regular use of 3M masks out of doors have left me largely unaffected physically by the foul air we're experiencing -- but I do not have air conditioners that cool the air too.