sutton1001 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Hi guys me and my wife are paying for the land today in Trang. I don't need replies of a bad nature I've been wife my wife quite long enough and with a child due in may we both made a collective decision to live in Thailand full time. Just a question should I get an usufruct or not bother if I trust my wife?! And is it really of any use? Thanks Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 An usufruct or lease will not protect your investment in the event of a divorce as agreements between spouses can be unilaterally dissolved. However, I would still get one, the cost is minimal and it will protect your rights to use the land in the event that the worst happens and your wife should pre-decease you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton1001 Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Thanks crossy! Can a usufruct be done at a later date or only the day of land purchase. And yes I am aware in the event Of A divorce I stand to lose everything. Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaibruce Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Honestly, I shake my head in disbelief sometimes when I read threads like this where people delay researching such potentially important matters until the last possible moment. No doubt linked to the corresponding number of (subsequent) threads along the lines of 'only investing in thailand what you are prepared to lose'. Yes you can enter into a usufruct after the sale, but the world can change in a heartbeat so I would advise doing it now. Be sure to request that the usufruct is for the term of your life. No, you do not necessarily stand to "lose everything" in a divorce. Again you should research Thai divorce laws - the info is just a google click away. Generally you would only lose half of the value of post-marriage assets ... but obviously this would depend on individual circumstances, the level of preparation, and the perhaps the calibre of your lawyer. Edited January 15, 2013 by chiangmaibruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton1001 Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Haha... Sorry changmaibruce I have read up many times just a little nervous and got a million things going round my head. As the wife is the only English speaker. I've posted a few threads myself on this and had answers just pooping a little! Cheers Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce. Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story. Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommoPhysicist Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Wait till baby is here then word Usufrunct to include you and baby. That will stop it being canceled at a later date. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark131v Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce. Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story. Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim I think that is crap advice Jim, it isn't all about people getting ripped off but also about what happens if the wife dies before you, no pre planning and you could end up with a year to sell and a world of hurt, personally for the sake of a couple of hundred baht it seems like a complete no brainer to me 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrain Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Haha... Sorry changmaibruce I have read up many times just a little nervous and got a million things going round my head. As the wife is the only English speaker. I've posted a few threads myself on this and had answers just pooping a little! Cheers Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Why nervous? You are long enough with the wife and trust her, you are sure nothing can go wrong.Why even bother to open a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce. Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story. Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim I think that is crap advice Jim, it isn't all about people getting ripped off but also about what happens if the wife dies before you, no pre planning and you could end up with a year to sell and a world of hurt, personally for the sake of a couple of hundred baht it seems like a complete no brainer to me Wife can make a will, leave you to live there, kids get land. Usufrunct will not hold up in a Thai court for a non national. You have civil law and criminal laws that Govern this, plus family law..As a farang you can not claim the right to own or control land, that's it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark131v Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce. Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story. Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim I think that is crap advice Jim, it isn't all about people getting ripped off but also about what happens if the wife dies before you, no pre planning and you could end up with a year to sell and a world of hurt, personally for the sake of a couple of hundred baht it seems like a complete no brainer to me Wife can make a will, leave you to live there, kids get land. Usufrunct will not hold up in a Thai court for a non national. You have civil law and criminal laws that Govern this, plus family law..As a farang you can not claim the right to own or control land, that's it. Jim There was a guy on here not long ago who has been through the whole thing with his wife dying, the usefruct stands and he is allowed to stay in the house until he dies I imagine if there where no children involved it could be an issue with leaving a foreigner in a house once the wife has gone even if she did leave it in her will and maybe you leave yourself open to family claims as well As I said I am no expert but have read a lot of stuff on this and yours is the only voice I have heard saying it cant/wont work personally for the price of 220baht and a morning at the land office I will give it a go Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phronesis Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 PM me if you want to put my name on the usufruct. That way you will be protected if your marriage goes bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maprao Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Usufructs can also only be done on land with "proper"titles not possessory rights. Does the land you are buying have a Chanote? Sent from my GT-P1000 using Thaivisa Connect App Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Jean Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 A usufruct will stand in case of death of the Thai spouse. The land can be willed to anyone, but that anyone has to honor the usufruct. This is the reason why it is registered on the land title, no exceptions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaibruce Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Jim, can you provide any actual real life examples of an ex-wife having a usufruct cancelled? I have not heard of any Mark, yes, a Thai wife can leave a property to a non-Thai husband in a Will. According to the law he has a year to either sell it or transfer to a Thai (for e.g. a half Thai child) or the land department can sell it out from under him. BUT I have not heard of any examples of that actually happening and what appears to occur is that the foreign husband (quietly and unofficially) is often allowed to remain in the property until he dies or sells it at a later date. Of course you should not rely on that occurring, and presumably you would not want to have any upset relatives with their eye on the property, etc, calling for the law to be upheld. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Jim, can you provide any actual real life examples of an ex-wife having a usufruct cancelled? I have not heard of any Mark, yes, a Thai wife can leave a property to a non-Thai husband in a Will. According to the law he has a year to either sell it or transfer to a Thai (for e.g. a half Thai child) or the land department can sell it out from under him. BUT I have not heard of any examples of that actually happening and what appears to occur is that the foreign husband (quietly and unofficially) is often allowed to remain in the property until he dies or sells it at a later date. Of course you should not rely on that occurring, and presumably you would not want to have any upset relatives with their eye on the property, etc, calling for the law to be upheld. No don't know any sad stories on wife cancelling the deal, but not many farangs out this far, but never seen one keep the house/land after a break up or divorce. Would think the first thing a lawyer for the wife would advise her to do, would be avoid the usufrunct. Family court will avoid it anyways. Jim . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark131v Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Jim, can you provide any actual real life examples of an ex-wife having a usufruct cancelled? I have not heard of any Mark, yes, a Thai wife can leave a property to a non-Thai husband in a Will. According to the law he has a year to either sell it or transfer to a Thai (for e.g. a half Thai child) or the land department can sell it out from under him. BUT I have not heard of any examples of that actually happening and what appears to occur is that the foreign husband (quietly and unofficially) is often allowed to remain in the property until he dies or sells it at a later date. Of course you should not rely on that occurring, and presumably you would not want to have any upset relatives with their eye on the property, etc, calling for the law to be upheld. Cheers Bruce, that is what I thought wrt the will situation i.e, 1 year to sell in the event of death of a spouse though I had heard rumours of the possibility to be left alone afterwards if you are lucky, it does seem that getting a usefruct is a complete no-brainer really even if it is just for piece of mind I am married with a daughter so I am aware that we can will the property to my daughter when she is older I am also aware that divorce is always a possibility, no one least of all me expects it but it is a common enough occurrence none the less I don't think anything is certain here and many things are blatantly stacked against Farangs but I do think that it is foolish to not think about this subject, I am 45 and the Missus is 37 so we are not expecting anything to happen but I have always been taught to expect the unexpected and we will get the usefruct this time when I get back from work James I know a French guy who had been with his girlfriend for 10 years it went bad and they have since split up, they bought the house together with his money through her, she thought she was due the house and a big payday when they split, didn't happen as he had got a usefruct when they bought, guess who is living in the house now..... Edited January 16, 2013 by mark131v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Jim, can you provide any actual real life examples of an ex-wife having a usufruct cancelled? I have not heard of any Mark, yes, a Thai wife can leave a property to a non-Thai husband in a Will. According to the law he has a year to either sell it or transfer to a Thai (for e.g. a half Thai child) or the land department can sell it out from under him. BUT I have not heard of any examples of that actually happening and what appears to occur is that the foreign husband (quietly and unofficially) is often allowed to remain in the property until he dies or sells it at a later date. Of course you should not rely on that occurring, and presumably you would not want to have any upset relatives with their eye on the property, etc, calling for the law to be upheld. Cheers Bruce, that is what I thought wrt the will situation i.e, 1 year to sell in the event of death of a spouse though I had heard rumours of the possibility to be left alone afterwards if you are lucky, it does seem that getting a usefruct is a complete no-brainer really even if it is just for piece of mind I am married with a daughter so I am aware that we can will the property to my daughter when she is older I am also aware that divorce is always a possibility, no one least of all me expects it but it is a common enough occurrence none the less I don't think anything is certain here and many things are blatantly stacked against Farangs but I do think that it is foolish to not think about this subject, I am 45 and the Missus is 37 so we are not expecting anything to happen but I have always been taught to expect the unexpected and we will get the usefruct this time when I get back from work James I know a French guy who had been with his girlfriend for 10 years it went bad and they have since split up, they bought the house together with his money through her, she thought she was due the house and a big payday when they split, didn't happen as he had got a usefruct when they bought, guess who is living in the house now..... Then he has one very stupid girl friend, she could simply have gone and told the land office that he gave her money to buy the land so that he could live there. Not legal, he may have even signed a statement to the effect that the money was a gift and he had no claim on the land. Criminal offence, making a false statement. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 One other thing not mentioned, you can have more than one usufruct registered. Ex GF could give her next boyfriend one on the same land. These things are no there to allow back door home ownership. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton1001 Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Some negative comets! I expect that here tho haha. We did get the land with a chanote (three in total) all done and dusted. Didn't do the usufruct will do that next week. Yes I do trust my wife, we've been together for quite some time not not just a couple of years. Yes lots of Thai girls are bad, real bad from some experience that some of my friends have had here and my wife was one of the ones to say to me she's no good! Anyway I don't really care about Other people's failed marriages I just look at my own. My local land registry had never had a farang come with wife it was their first time! When I do go back next week how do I pronounce the usufruct?! In Thai or is it the same? And when my son is born we will do it again. Thanks for the positive advice! Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark131v Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Bruce do you know anything reference if it can be willed to a foreign spouse?? Jim, can you provide any actual real life examples of an ex-wife having a usufruct cancelled? I have not heard of any Mark, yes, a Thai wife can leave a property to a non-Thai husband in a Will. According to the law he has a year to either sell it or transfer to a Thai (for e.g. a half Thai child) or the land department can sell it out from under him. BUT I have not heard of any examples of that actually happening and what appears to occur is that the foreign husband (quietly and unofficially) is often allowed to remain in the property until he dies or sells it at a later date. Of course you should not rely on that occurring, and presumably you would not want to have any upset relatives with their eye on the property, etc, calling for the law to be upheld. Cheers Bruce, that is what I thought wrt the will situation i.e, 1 year to sell in the event of death of a spouse though I had heard rumours of the possibility to be left alone afterwards if you are lucky, it does seem that getting a usefruct is a complete no-brainer really even if it is just for piece of mind I am married with a daughter so I am aware that we can will the property to my daughter when she is older I am also aware that divorce is always a possibility, no one least of all me expects it but it is a common enough occurrence none the less I don't think anything is certain here and many things are blatantly stacked against Farangs but I do think that it is foolish to not think about this subject, I am 45 and the Missus is 37 so we are not expecting anything to happen but I have always been taught to expect the unexpected and we will get the usefruct this time when I get back from work James I know a French guy who had been with his girlfriend for 10 years it went bad and they have since split up, they bought the house together with his money through her, she thought she was due the house and a big payday when they split, didn't happen as he had got a usefruct when they bought, guess who is living in the house now..... Then he has one very stupid girl friend, she could simply have gone and told the land office that he gave her money to buy the land so that he could live there. Not legal, he may have even signed a statement to the effect that the money was a gift and he had no claim on the land. Criminal offence, making a false statement. Jim I don't know Jim, I do know that he is in the house and she accepted a small payoff on the advice of a Lawyer and he is allowed to stay in the House until he pops his clogs, this was probably about 3 months ago but I will ring the missus and get the other info. No offence Jim but you are speaking from stuff you have no real experience of where as I know this guy in his case with an unmarried girlfriend and also have no reason to disbelieve the other poster whose wife died before him, I reckon we must agree to disagree on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton1001 Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Haha... Sorry changmaibruce I have read up many times just a little nervous and got a million things going round my head. As the wife is the only English speaker. I've posted a few threads myself on this and had answers just pooping a little! Cheers Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Why nervous? You are long enough with the wife and trust her, you are sure nothing can go wrong.Why even bother to open a thread. Erm do I trust her?! Dur! Yes it is not about trust when your wife happens to get slammed by a car or tragically get ill! Get a grip man! Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Mark Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department. Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time. As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail. You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark131v Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Mark Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department. Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time. As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail. You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies. I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office? I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phronesis Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Mods..shouldn't this thread be locked. The "1pm Today" is no longer relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Mark Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department. Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time. As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail. You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies. I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office? I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one There you go, so if a usufruct was legal [they are not meant for housing], but mining and agriculture. Get a usufruct on your rubber trees. The right to collect the fruits of the land etc. You now have a life time work permit to farm, an occupation prohibited for non Thais.I would have done it years ago. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrain Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Mark Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department. Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time. As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail. You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies. I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office? I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one There you go, so if a usufruct was legal [they are not meant for housing], but mining and agriculture. Get a usufruct on your rubber trees. The right to collect the fruits of the land etc. You now have a life time work permit to farm, an occupation prohibited for non Thais.I would have done it years ago. Jim What has a Usufruct have to do with a workpermit? Mark is talking about an Usufruct the guy got from his girlfriend, which is a completely different thing from wife Edited January 17, 2013 by jbrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrain Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Mods..shouldn't this thread be locked. The "1pm Today" is no longer relevant. It's 1pm once everyday, isn't it ? Edited January 17, 2013 by jbrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Mark Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department. Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time. As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail. You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies. I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office? I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one There you go, so if a usufruct was legal [they are not meant for housing], but mining and agriculture. Get a usufruct on your rubber trees. The right to collect the fruits of the land etc. You now have a life time work permit to farm, an occupation prohibited for non Thais.I would have done it years ago. Jim What has a Usufruct have to do with a workpermit? Mark is talking about an Usufruct the guy got from his girlfriend, which is a completely different thing from wife That's what a usufruct is, a right to work or mine land. Nothing to do with habitation. If you have one on some land you can farm it ergo no need for a WP.You can't cherry pick bits here and there, it either is or is not. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton1001 Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ok I will try again. I need to get usufruct sorted. They didn't know what I was trying to say regarding the usufruct no one spoke English and I am the first farang that they have had to deal with. Can somebody point me at maybe a Thai page I can show them on my phone please? Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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