Is Real Democracy Dead?

[Berkshire]

You don't seem to realise that ALL so called democratic elections, in ALL so called democratic countries are about bribing the votors.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "real" democracy these days, if there ever was.

Good point. The Thais are just a bit too direct, which seems to offend the good folks here on TV. Let's be a little more discrete about how our politicians buy our votes so we can pretend that we're a real democracy. In the just completed US presidential elections, the two candidates spent in excess of US$2 billion. That's billion with a "B." But of course, everyone will say their vote wasn't bought. Yeah, right.

[StreetCowboy]

You don't seem to realise that ALL so called democratic elections, in ALL so called democratic countries are about bribing the votors.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "real" democracy these days, if there ever was.

Good point. The Thais are just a bit too direct, which seems to offend the good folks here on TV. Let's be a little more discrete about how our politicians buy our votes so we can pretend that we're a real democracy. In the just completed US presidential elections, the two candidates spent in excess of US$2 billion. That's billion with a "B." But of course, everyone will say their vote wasn't bought. Yeah, right.

I don't think Obama put his hand in his own pocket to get elected so that he could plunder the treasury. I think the party spent the money because they thought they could run the country better for the benefit of their supporters than the opposition, and the companies that sponsored them thought that they would be better off under such a government. I'm sure some amongst us have belonged to political parties at one time or another in the belief that those parties, when in government, would be more favourable to us, and not through the direct award of government contracts.

On some of the other fora you'll hear quite vocal discussion of technical issues of policy - not something that you hear in the Thai political press.

SC

[thaimite]

You don't seem to realise that ALL so called democratic elections, in ALL so called democratic countries are about bribing the votors.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "real" democracy these days, if there ever was.

Good point. The Thais are just a bit too direct, which seems to offend the good folks here on TV. Let's be a little more discrete about how our politicians buy our votes so we can pretend that we're a real democracy. In the just completed US presidential elections, the two candidates spent in excess of US$2 billion. That's billion with a "B." But of course, everyone will say their vote wasn't bought. Yeah, right.

Anybody sponsoring any candidate in any election is doing it for their own gain.

Thus the sponors of the US elections will be looking for their 2 Billion back. Of course no sponsor would risk loosing all his money so they sponsor both sides and that way are assured a return on your investment.

That is why things never chnage no matter what promises are made during the election. The power is not with the president / Prime minister, but with those who bought him

Edited January 18, 2013 by thaimite

[swissie]

Corruption is a worldwide thing. But at least in "the west" there is a free press with plenty of "Investigative-Reporters", that are more than eager to expose "Corrupt Office Holders".

But in Thailand it's a way of live and has been for the last 200 years. And never forget, if you are on the receiving end of corruption, it's not so bad at all (Thai-Thingking).

No doubt in my mind, Thailand will eventually shake it. There is an educated generation starting to emerge and I would not underestimate their will to change things. But until this takes hold, it will take their children and grandchildren to accomplish the task.

As I am 60 years old, unfortunately, I will not see it happen.

Cheers.

[CPH]

Government should make a piece of paper with the text " I hereby sign that I have not recived any money in connection with this election. If it is later shown that i have received money for my vote I risk up to 10 years in jail ". Maybe this could stop some of the vote buying.

[edwinchester]

Well wifey came home with some somtam and a big smile about an hour ago.

There is a second election at the same time for the deputy and she picked up another one thousand baht!

[endure]

Wow. I have heard about this stuff, I didn't realize the $$ or ฿ was that big. I'd love to know the economics of it all.. Where the money comes from, along with the votes, what else are they buying? Why is the position worth so much?? I've lived here for 6.5 years, and I know I'll never really know what goes on here.

How long until someone makes a post about the same thing happens everywhere in the world?

Governments buy votes all over the world, west or east. Vote for us and we will give you this or that. Thailand they just pay up front, win or lose. Once you win, lots of opportunities to redeem the money spent getting into office.

Some don't pay much and not a lot to be made on the side. FIL is one, but it is a life time position. Puts his uniform on every 2 weeks, goes to a meeting, but gets paid every month until 60 or 65 years old. Jim

Saying "Vote for us and we'll give you ..." is a lot different than "Here is .... Now vote for us."

In Thailand you get the money up front. In the west you get an IOU that's often not honoured.

[jamescollister]

Must counties work on a 2 party dictatorship, you vote for people you least dislike. If a new group, left, right or in between starts to grow too strong. Laws will be enacted to stop them getting any real power.

If there was true democracy the people would be able to decide. USA, Government of the people, by the people for the people. Yet 400 people own 50% of all the wealth of the country, no different than most countries. If you asked the people to vote on real wealth distribution, think most would think that was not fair. Not going to happen, Jim

[Loptr]

Democracy is a game that the elites play in order to allow the masses to think they have a say in the greater good. When in fact the masses are just that, human capital that are traded on the open market like any other commodity. The only difference between the west and Thailand is that they are not quite as good as covering up the sham as they are in the west. There is no "free will" anymore, it was stolen with the rest of our rights by greedy governments with their own agendas, which are not in your's nor my best interests. Same, same in Thailand.

[thaimite]

Democracy is the illusion that you get to choose your dictator!

[StreetCowboy]

Must counties work on a 2 party dictatorship, you vote for people you least dislike. If a new group, left, right or in between starts to grow too strong. Laws will be enacted to stop them getting any real power.

If there was true democracy the people would be able to decide. USA, Government of the people, by the people for the people. Yet 400 people own 50% of all the wealth of the country, no different than most countries. If you asked the people to vote on real wealth distribution, think most would think that was not fair. Not going to happen, Jim

I don't think I would like my wealth redistributed by popular demand.

The fact is that the reason why democracy is not particularly effective is that most people don't really care. It's apathocracy - rule by others because we can't be bothered to do it for ourselves. We should be grateful to the insecure, the megalomaniacs and the election addicts who are willing to govern on our behalf

SC

[whybother]

In Thailand you get the money up front. In the west you get an IOU that's often not honoured.

Yes, you're right. But it's a lot easier to stand up and say "But you promised ..." in the west, and the politician will worry about getting elected next time around.

In Thailand, they don't "promise", so there is nothing to complain about, and next time around they just pay you again.

[nisakiman]

It will be some time before the Thai politicians catch up with the EU.

Brussels has dispensed with all that tiresome democracy stuff. Well, you just can't rely on voters to vote the right way, can you? Much better to sidestep all that voting stuff and just appoint your mates that are ideologically sound to the important posts.

Job done. No need to buy votes.

Still, doubtless the Thais will catch on soon enough...

Edited January 18, 2013 by nisakiman

[endure]

In Thailand you get the money up front. In the west you get an IOU that's often not honoured.

Yes, you're right. But it's a lot easier to stand up and say "But you promised ..." in the west, and the politician will worry about getting elected next time around.

In Thailand, they don't "promise", so there is nothing to complain about, and next time around they just pay you again.

So in Thailand you get paid every time whereas in the west you may never get paid at all...

[StreetCowboy]

In Thailand you get the money up front. In the west you get an IOU that's often not honoured.

Yes, you're right. But it's a lot easier to stand up and say "But you promised ..." in the west, and the politician will worry about getting elected next time around.

In Thailand, they don't "promise", so there is nothing to complain about, and next time around they just pay you again.

So in Thailand you get paid every time whereas in the west you may never get paid at all...

Since it's your own money you're getting back, I'd rather not pay the taxes to be plundered, and then handed out to deadwoods.

My tax rate in Thailand was the highest I've paid anywhere.

SC

[endure]

In Thailand you get the money up front. In the west you get an IOU that's often not honoured.

Yes, you're right. But it's a lot easier to stand up and say "But you promised ..." in the west, and the politician will worry about getting elected next time around.

In Thailand, they don't "promise", so there is nothing to complain about, and next time around they just pay you again.

So in Thailand you get paid every time whereas in the west you may never get paid at all...

Since it's your own money you're getting back, I'd rather not pay the taxes to be plundered, and then handed out to deadwoods.

My tax rate in Thailand was the highest I've paid anywhere.

SC

Let us know when you find a country where you don't have to pay tax.

[StreetCowboy]

...

Let us know when you find a country where you don't have to pay tax.

Dubai (UAE?) has income tax at 0%, which is not too onerous.

I don't object to paying tax, but I'd rather the tax money wasn't mostly plundered by criminals.

SC

[lannarebirth]

It will be some time before the Thai politicians catch up with the EU.

Brussels has dispensed with all that tiresome democracy stuff. Well, you just can't rely on voters to vote the right way, can you? Much better to sidestep all that voting stuff and just appoint your mates that are ideologically sound to the important posts.

Job done. No need to buy votes.

Still, doubtless the Thais will catch on soon enough...

Democracy isn't dead in Thailand it was never born. They can't even mange fair elections which is the least important part of a democracy. They don't seem likely to get any of the other more important pillars right. In te west you can still get fair elections but all the other institutions are post democratic. Constitution?, what's that?

[endure]

...

Let us know when you find a country where you don't have to pay tax.

Dubai (UAE?) has income tax at 0%, which is not too onerous.

I don't object to paying tax, but I'd rather the tax money wasn't mostly plundered by criminals.

SC

Good luck with that...

[endure]

It will be some time before the Thai politicians catch up with the EU.

Brussels has dispensed with all that tiresome democracy stuff. Well, you just can't rely on voters to vote the right way, can you? Much better to sidestep all that voting stuff and just appoint your mates that are ideologically sound to the important posts.

Job done. No need to buy votes.

Still, doubtless the Thais will catch on soon enough...

Democracy isn't dead in Thailand it was never born. They can't even mange fair elections which is the least important part of a democracy. They don't seem likely to get any of the other more important pillars right. In te west you can still get fair elections but all the other institutions are post democratic. Constitution?, what's that?

Considering that democracy in Thailand started in 1932(?) they have a little leeway before we can compare them to our flourishing democracies in the west...

[edwinchester]

...

Let us know when you find a country where you don't have to pay tax.

Dubai (UAE?) has income tax at 0%, which is not too onerous.

I don't object to paying tax, but I'd rather the tax money wasn't mostly plundered by criminals.

SC

Always wondered why a certain criminal went there. Now I know, thanks.

[nong38]

The way elections work here seems to be tradtional, its not fair open or honest is it? You grease the electrol roll and hope for the best, if you win you control some budgets which enables you to recoup some of your expenditure, thats the way it works and lets be honest we are talking big money here, only people with money can afford to play politics here.

What is real democracy anyway?

Take the UK, we have a General Election you vote for a party and its candidate, when he gets to Westminster the Government tells him which way to vote. The opposition tell there lot which way to vote, is that democracy? Its a form of democracy and it looks good, just as long as the people at the top who make the decisions are well catered for is all that matters, same as here then more or less. Keep the electorate under control, uninformed and life goes on as it always has done, the ordinary people continue to hope for a better life,

[thaibeachlovers]

The way elections work here seems to be tradtional, its not fair open or honest is it? You grease the electrol roll and hope for the best, if you win you control some budgets which enables you to recoup some of your expenditure, thats the way it works and lets be honest we are talking big money here, only people with money can afford to play politics here.

What is real democracy anyway?

Take the UK, we have a General Election you vote for a party and its candidate, when he gets to Westminster the Government tells him which way to vote. The opposition tell there lot which way to vote, is that democracy? Its a form of democracy and it looks good, just as long as the people at the top who make the decisions are well catered for is all that matters, same as here then more or less. Keep the electorate under control, uninformed and life goes on as it always has done, the ordinary people continue to hope for a better life,

The biggest con ever perpetrated on western people is that they live in "democracies" and have some say.

The most democratic people on the planet are probably the Swiss, but no other country will try their system, probably because politicians will lose some of their power.

[thaibeachlovers]

Yes, you're right. But it's a lot easier to stand up and say "But you promised ..." in the west, and the politician will worry about getting elected next time around.

In Thailand, they don't "promise", so there is nothing to complain about, and next time around they just pay you again.

So in Thailand you get paid every time whereas in the west you may never get paid at all...

Since it's your own money you're getting back, I'd rather not pay the taxes to be plundered, and then handed out to deadwoods.

My tax rate in Thailand was the highest I've paid anywhere.

SC

Let us know when you find a country where you don't have to pay tax.

No personal tax in Saudi.

Modified to allow posting

[lannarebirth]

It will be some time before the Thai politicians catch up with the EU.

Brussels has dispensed with all that tiresome democracy stuff. Well, you just can't rely on voters to vote the right way, can you? Much better to sidestep all that voting stuff and just appoint your mates that are ideologically sound to the important posts.

Job done. No need to buy votes.

Still, doubtless the Thais will catch on soon enough...

Democracy isn't dead in Thailand it was never born. They can't even mange fair elections which is the least important part of a democracy. They don't seem likely to get any of the other more important pillars right. In te west you can still get fair elections but all the other institutions are post democratic. Constitution?, what's that?

Considering that democracy in Thailand started in 1932(?) they have a little leeway before we can compare them to our flourishing democracies in the west...

Perhaps you misunderstood me. REAL Democracy is already dead in the west. They have already moved into a post-democracy world. It was a non starter here. Thailand couldn't even overcome the lowest of hurdles, that being free and fair elections, let alone democratic institutions which are even more important. and are the true pillars of democracy.

[jamescollister]

Have to say from a local village point of view, things are more democratic than the west. We have village meetings all are welcome, maybe small things like where to put a water pump and water tank or which roads will get street lights, plus whether a trouble maker is told he is no longer welcome.

Grass roots stuff, but at least you get a say and the village decides as a whole rather than some faceless man in an office somewhere else telling you what is best for your village. Jim

[swissie]

The way elections work here seems to be tradtional, its not fair open or honest is it? You grease the electrol roll and hope for the best, if you win you control some budgets which enables you to recoup some of your expenditure, thats the way it works and lets be honest we are talking big money here, only people with money can afford to play politics here.

What is real democracy anyway?

Take the UK, we have a General Election you vote for a party and its candidate, when he gets to Westminster the Government tells him which way to vote. The opposition tell there lot which way to vote, is that democracy? Its a form of democracy and it looks good, just as long as the people at the top who make the decisions are well catered for is all that matters, same as here then more or less. Keep the electorate under control, uninformed and life goes on as it always has done, the ordinary people continue to hope for a better life,

The biggest con ever perpetrated on western people is that they live in "democracies" and have some say.

The most democratic people on the planet are probably the Swiss, but no other country will try their system, probably because politicians will lose some of their power.

Switzerland must be the most democratic country in the world, because I don't know of an other country where the people can challange a governement decision. Called the "Referendum".

= After having collected 300'000 signatures opposing any governement decision, the subject will have to be put up for a public vote. After the vote is taken, there are no more "but, if and maybe's". Many governement decisions have been revoked this way in the past. Or in other words: The voters can challenge governement-decisions successfully.

BTW: Swiss democracy dates back to the year 1291 and is therefore the second-oldest democracy in the world.

The state philosophy of Switzerland has been (and still is): We are too small a country to get involved in word affairs (war games) and stay neutral. This has produced an environment of extreme stability during centuries. Is it any wonder, that over time, substantial amounts of money were transfered to Switzerland, mainly by people from all over the world, that diden't trust their own governements. Question: Why does tax-evasion occur in the first place?

At any rate: Officially, the world agrees, that there can be no more Tax-Havens. Switzerland is under heavy attack. Other Tax-Havens like Singapore, Panama, Cayman-Islands, Monaco, the British Islands, the Bahamas, Belize and the state of Delawere (US) etc, etc are not under attack? Why not?

Could it be, that it is not really about tax-evasion, but more like that the global-power-oligarchs have decided, that we can not possibly have a country left, where the citizens actually can say to the ruling governement: "No, we don't want that, forget it!" Just imagine if a "voter-referendum" like existing in Switzerland would be introduced in all of the western democracies overnight.?

You be the judge. Cheers.