Buying Vs Being A Lifelong Renter

[USNret]

I've seen hints of this topic in other discussions, but I'd like to draw some clarity in the conversation. I'm interested in the thoughts on being a homeowner in Thailand vs the prospect of renting forever.

I'm talking about owner-occupied home or condo; not investment purchases for rental.

The concept of home ownership in Thailand seems to be entirely contrary to my experience in the States. Here are the 3 big issues I see, and why home ownership might not make sense. I would appreciate any additions to the pro's or cons on this list.

1) Buying an owner-occupied home in Thailand is not really a great investment. In developed countries, you might reasonably expect your home value to increase over the years. In Thailand, this is not a realistic expectation. Home value will very likely be flat or go down, so economically buying vs renting may not make sense.

2) Homes are not built to last (other than very high-end European builders using top quality materials.) You can expect major maintenance problems in a few years, and expect the whole darn house to fall down in a decade or so.

3) Zoning (lack of enforcement thereof) can make your life miserable. You can buy into a peaceful neighborhood, only to have an all-night karaoke bar or steel foundry to open next week in your neighborhood. You may or may not be able to do anything about it; probably you can't.

Being a renter fits my lifestyle, being easier to pick up & move on short notice. This is just me; many of you have no intention of moving. Still, being a renter makes it easier to move if (1) the house is falling down or (2) the neighborhood becomes undesirable.

With these considerations, what is the advantage of home ownership in Thailand for the average farang?

[rgs2001uk]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

2. You get what you pay for, have a look at the "gated communities".

3. See answer 2.

With these considerations, what is the advantage of home ownership in Thailand for the average farang?

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

[USNret]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

2. You get what you pay for, have a look at the "gated communities".

3. See answer 2.

With these considerations, what is the advantage of home ownership in Thailand for the average farang?

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

I can accept the truthfulness of #1. This being the case, if you buy land developed with a house, then in order to make economic sense the land might have to appreciate enough to offset tearing down the house & rebuilding in the future. This might be realistic, but again you might be buying into a bubble which won't help at all.

2. I don't see gated communities as a panacea to quality. I've toured several. The new ones are shiny & brightly painted, with sparkly pools. The older once are dingy, cracked, with green pools. In a while the new shiny ones will be old dingy ones. This is, of course, a generality but I see it a lot. Looking at older communities makes me not want to buy into newer communities.

3. Good point.

There's another conversation touching on the real estate bubble:

My views might be colored by this. I've been looking at Thai real estate for about 6 years. Six years ago, I thought it was overpriced. Today, I think it is hideously overpriced. Perhaps if the bubble popped and prices return to what I consider a fair value (as though my opinion means anything) then the economics of everything changes. I had the great good fortune to do exactly this in California. The bubble popped in '97; I bought and rode the next bubble to 2005 at which I sold for a great profit. This was all a matter of luck, not smarts, but I hope to replicate this experience one day in Thailand if the bubble will ever burst.

[dave111223]

I don't see how a house built out of poured reenforced concrete should be expected to fall down in 10 years.

Sure if you never paint it and let dogs poop all over it, it's not going to look very nice in 10 years; but fall down...nope.

[PattayaPhom]

If you prefer to rent them rent. You can owna condo in Thailand. Buy in a developed area and your concerns if karaoke etc won't happen. Many condos 20 years old and still in 1st condition, these same condos have increased 10 fold in value. Naysayers won't agree but they talk of poor build in bad locations.

[diddums]

Chasing the bubble takes a long time.

Tis a risky sport.

Moreso depends entirely on your personal situation.

I built a house in Bkk for 12mil and sold it for 18.

Next one was 4mil and sold for 6.

Current block cost 4 but now worth 5 times that...so go figure.

[likewise]

hmm, our house build 6 years ago, still looking new and not even close to falling apart. Only I have to get off my ass and paint the perimeter wall .

It is indeed in a gated community so as far as karaokes go..... nah, no way.

Price wise it has gone up, I bought ours for 4.5 million, same house is now being sold at 6 million and yes there are buyers.

[A. BOOZER]

If you are just considering yourself, renting may well be the correct choice.

However, as I am in my early sixties, my Thai wife of some 13 years is a similar age. My wife has been fantastic both to, and for me, and due to various heath issues, expect her to far outlive me. Therefore I want her, not only to have an income from my estate, but something concrete (no pun intended0, to inherit. She also has two children, both in their thirties, who I would like to think, will ultimately, gain some benefit from our demise.

However, as is normal in this life, you pay your money and take your choice.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

"3) Zoning (lack of enforcement thereof) can make your life miserable. You can buy into a peaceful neighborhood, only to have an all-night karaoke bar or steel foundry to open next week in your neighborhood. You may or may not be able to do anything about it; probably you can't."

This is the main problem. Neighbourhood issues of all types. No matter where you are in Thailand some idiot is pretty much bound to come along and make a noise or worse.

If you can be CERTAIN (short of accidental death) that you will want to live for 20 or 30 years in the place you are thinking of buying, buy it. If however you are like me and are doubtful that you will want to live somewhere for more than a year or three, just rent.

I cant overemphasise the peace of mind that I have when I go to sleep at night in my rented condo, knowing that no matter what happens I can walk away from it and lose absolutely nothing.

Edited February 4, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[rgs2001uk]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

2. You get what you pay for, have a look at the "gated communities".

3. See answer 2.

With these considerations, what is the advantage of home ownership in Thailand for the average farang?

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

I can accept the truthfulness of #1. This being the case, if you buy land developed with a house, then in order to make economic sense the land might have to appreciate enough to offset tearing down the house & rebuilding in the future. This might be realistic, but again you might be buying into a bubble which won't help at all.

2. I don't see gated communities as a panacea to quality. I've toured several. The new ones are shiny & brightly painted, with sparkly pools. The older once are dingy, cracked, with green pools. In a while the new shiny ones will be old dingy ones. This is, of course, a generality but I see it a lot. Looking at older communities makes me not want to buy into newer communities.

3. Good point.

There's another conversation touching on the real estate bubble:

http://www.thaivisa....its-in-bangkok/

My views might be colored by this. I've been looking at Thai real estate for about 6 years. Six years ago, I thought it was overpriced. Today, I think it is hideously overpriced. Perhaps if the bubble popped and prices return to what I consider a fair value (as though my opinion means anything) then the economics of everything changes. I had the great good fortune to do exactly this in California. The bubble popped in '97; I bought and rode the next bubble to 2005 at which I sold for a great profit. This was all a matter of luck, not smarts, but I hope to replicate this experience one day in Thailand if the bubble will ever burst.

1. I know of moo baans where the house with land was purchased about 25 years ago for say 6-800k baht, these houses are now being sold for at least 6 million due to the price per tw of the land, its basically buy the land and get a house for free.

Thats what many moneyed Thais are doing, these houses arent out in the sticks like some of the new moo baans, the puchaser will buy the house then demolish it, get a reputable company to build a new one to replace the original.

The beauty of this is, you can see exactly what you are buying into.

Many Thais living in Bkk arent from Bkk, they will come and work here, the house will be part of a retirement plan, they dont worry about house refurbishment, when they retire they sell the house and go back to where they came from.

2. In the main I agree, in fact many I wouldnt touch with a barge pole, especially any that are below 5 million, take a look at some of the gated communities up near the airport in Bkk on the Bang Na - Trat highway.

On you other comments I agree, I posted on another thread about property the mrs and I looked at in Hua Hin 10 years ago, total cost 2.5 million, or 30k sterling, recently saw a similair house for sale at 7.5 million or 150k sterling.

Are you buying a house to live in and see out the rest of your days or are you looking to speculate, if the former most guys end up buying in the area where their mrs is from, never a good idea if trying to make a quick buck, if its the latter I personally believe we will see prices stagnate for a good few years, for the simple reason most farangs dont have the cash to buy outright.

For many it makes no economical sense to buy, rent a place for say 120k per year, and invest your money elsewhere, if the neighbourhood goes to the dogs, move.

If you are looking to leave your mrs someplace to live in then buy by all means.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

That depends totally on where the house is. As the costs of labour and materials increase the building (or re-building) costs increase in proportion. It may be in some countries like the UK that there is a shortage of building land and so land prices are artificially high, making the land worth more than the building that is on it, but there are many parts of Europe where land is not in short supply and where building costs amount for most of the cost of a house and land amounts for relatively little.

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

A condo is not a home?

[rgs2001uk]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

That depends totally on where the house is. As the costs of labour and materials increase the building (or re-building) costs increase in proportion. It may be in some countries like the UK that there is a shortage of building land and so land prices are artificially high, making the land worth more than the building that is on it, but there are many parts of Europe where land is not in short supply and where building costs amount for most of the cost of a house and land amounts for relatively little.

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

A condo is not a home?

Thought we were talking about Thailand. Yes agree, that why its about location, one of the reasons I mentioned about Thais buying houses in older moo baans, lets say buy a property for 5 million, 100 tw at 50k per tw. Trash the house and build a new house for a cost of 5 million, total cost 10 million. You now have a house built to your design and spec's, now go and have a look at what 10 million buys you elsewhere in Bkk.

If we are talking Issan, then yes the second part of your post makes sense.

Why would I want a condo?

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Thought we were talking about Thailand. Yes agree, that why its about location, one of the reasons I mentioned about Thais buying houses in older moo baans, lets say buy a property for 5 million, 100 tw at 50k per tw. Trash the house and build a new house for a cost of 5 million, total cost 10 million. You now have a house built to your design and spec's, now go and have a look at what 10 million buys you elsewhere in Bkk.

I thought we were talking about property in general. The OP make several specific comparisons with property in the States and Europe.

But your comment is an eloquent description of the huge bubble that is Thai land values.

Why would I want a condo?

How should I know? Why should I care?

You said that as a farang you cant own a home here. This is nonsense. You can. But you cant own land.

[persiananueva]

All depends how old you are. And how sure you are about the location where the condo is.

Me, i bought a condo five years ago in Pattaya, now i decide to live in another place inside thailand, and i just rented my condo out, and getting 10 per cent of my investment a year, no tax to paid. In ten years i could have my money back, or also with that money just rent for myself where i want to live.

If you don't want to loose money when you buy a condo, my advice is buy cheap and in good location. Then your condo cant go down in price. If you buy luxurious condo, and the area go down or the condo get old.. you could loose a lot of money. If you buy cheap in a old condominium , you know that will not go worse , and only could go better. Also old condos usually are bigger , new condos is just shoe box.

[davejones]

1. Wrong, its the land that increaes in value not the house.

2. You get what you pay for, have a look at the "gated communities".

3. See answer 2.

With these considerations, what is the advantage of home ownership in Thailand for the average farang?

As a farang I am not allowed to own a home, so its of no concern to me.

I can accept the truthfulness of #1. This being the case, if you buy land developed with a house, then in order to make economic sense the land might have to appreciate enough to offset tearing down the house & rebuilding in the future. This might be realistic, but again you might be buying into a bubble which won't help at all.

2. I don't see gated communities as a panacea to quality. I've toured several. The new ones are shiny & brightly painted, with sparkly pools. The older once are dingy, cracked, with green pools. In a while the new shiny ones will be old dingy ones. This is, of course, a generality but I see it a lot. Looking at older communities makes me not want to buy into newer communities.

3. Good point.

There's another conversation touching on the real estate bubble:

http://www.thaivisa....its-in-bangkok/

My views might be colored by this. I've been looking at Thai real estate for about 6 years. Six years ago, I thought it was overpriced. Today, I think it is hideously overpriced. Perhaps if the bubble popped and prices return to what I consider a fair value (as though my opinion means anything) then the economics of everything changes. I had the great good fortune to do exactly this in California. The bubble popped in '97; I bought and rode the next bubble to 2005 at which I sold for a great profit. This was all a matter of luck, not smarts, but I hope to replicate this experience one day in Thailand if the bubble will ever burst.

I don't think what you did in California will ever work in Thailand. It's hard to build in many areas of California, so that tends to push prices up - more demand than supply. In Thailand, there is so much land that can be built on, that they won't be running out any time soon. This will keep prices low.

I have only rented so far, and have no current plans to buy. But in a few years if I decide to stay forever, I will probably buy. The advantage for me would be a place built or renovated to my exact specifications. That's important to me, but may not be to others. If I stay forever, whether it goes up or down in value doesn't matter, because I will never need to sell it. Even if I had to sell at a small loss 10 years later, it wouldn't matter to me, because having the perfect home is what's important to me. Suppose I lose 1 million baht over 10 years, that's 100,000 a year, or less then 10,000 a month. I don't look at a home as being something that needs to make a profit. It's like saying people that drink every weekend aren't making a profit from their beer investments. But they are getting pleasure out of it (I hope), and that's what they are paying for. I will get pleasure from my home and am willing to pay for it.

I don't agree that houses are so bad that they will fall down in 10 years. You are just perpetuating myths. Yes, plenty of property here is not to Western standards, but I think things are improving. Build a house and you can make sure it's good quality. Not going to get into an ownership of houses debate, as I really don't care whether I'd own it or not. I'd buy in wife/gf name. I don't worry as much as many on here. I know plenty for foreigners that have bought in wife's name and have lived happily ever after.

If you buy in a good area, I can't see why a karaoke bar would open nearby. That just seems a bit ridiculous. Same could happen in a Western country. Not karaoke, but noisy bar. Yes it does happen, but that's life.

I think you worry too much, so keep renting.

[davejones]

"3) Zoning (lack of enforcement thereof) can make your life miserable. You can buy into a peaceful neighborhood, only to have an all-night karaoke bar or steel foundry to open next week in your neighborhood. You may or may not be able to do anything about it; probably you can't."

This is the main problem. Neighbourhood issues of all types. No matter where you are in Thailand some idiot is pretty much bound to come along and make a noise or worse.

If you can be CERTAIN (short of accidental death) that you will want to live for 20 or 30 years in the place you are thinking of buying, buy it. If however you are like me and are doubtful that you will want to live somewhere for more than a year or three, just rent.

I cant overemphasise the peace of mind that I have when I go to sleep at night in my rented condo, knowing that no matter what happens I can walk away from it and lose absolutely nothing.

Not true. I have lived in three different condos and never had a single problem with bad neighbours anywhere in the building or even the surrounding areas.

Renting obviously suits you, but many other go to bed at night knowing that the condo they are living in has doubled in value since they bought it. Different types of people rent and buy. Many renters on here just seem too scared to buy. Scared people miss out on a lot in life.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Not true. I have lived in three different condos and never had a single problem with bad neighbours anywhere in the building or even the surrounding areas.

Maybe you are just deaf. Some people dont seem to notice noise at all (most Thais dont, for a start). In all of Pattaya I only know of one condo building that I would describe as being in a quiet area, and it isnt my condo. That said, I also have had no problems at all with bad neighbours and I really like where I am living. But I also know that this could change overnight if some idiot opened a karaoke bar in the car park, or some drunken hippo moved in next door. And I would rather not be locked into anywhere knowing that this could happen at any time.

I do know other people in other buildings who have had huge noise problems, and many people have posted on here about the same sort of thing. So to say that it isn't true is really a bit silly.

Renting obviously suits you, but many other go to bed at night knowing that the condo they are living in has doubled in value since they bought it.

Tell that to my landlord who has been trying to sell the unit I am in for 3 years. And all he wants to do is get the price he paid for it. Not much chance of that happening soon, I think.

Many renters on here just seem too scared to buy. Scared people miss out on a lot in life.

I've owned several properties in my life and I dont quite see what one could possibly miss out on by not owning a Thai condo. There's enjoyment to be had in living in a nice one, certainly, but owning one offers nothing special that I can see. The same applies to Thai houses as far as I'm concerned.

[davejones]

Not true. I have lived in three different condos and never had a single problem with bad neighbours anywhere in the building or even the surrounding areas.

Maybe you are just deaf. Some people dont seem to notice noise at all (most Thais dont, for a start). In all of Pattaya I only know of one condo building that I would describe as being in a quiet area, and it isnt my condo. That said, I also have had no problems at all with bad neighbours and I really like where I am living. But I also know that this could change overnight if some idiot opened a karaoke bar in the car park, or some drunken hippo moved in next door. And I would rather not be locked into anywhere knowing that this could happen at any time.

I do know other people in other buildings who have had huge noise problems, and many people have posted on here about the same sort of thing. So to say that it isn't true is really a bit silly.

Renting obviously suits you, but many other go to bed at night knowing that the condo they are living in has doubled in value since they bought it.

Tell that to my landlord who has been trying to sell the unit I am in for 3 years. And all he wants to do is get the price he paid for it. Not much chance of that happening soon, I think.

Many renters on here just seem too scared to buy. Scared people miss out on a lot in life.

I've owned several properties in my life and I dont quite see what one could possibly miss out on by not owning a Thai condo. There's enjoyment to be had in living in a nice one, certainly, but owning one offers nothing special that I can see. The same applies to Thai houses as far as I'm concerned.

LOL. You live in Pattaya, so what do you expect. Move to another area of Thailand. I've been in Bangkok for almost 3 years and have never even seen a karaoke place, apart from a couple of soundproofed karaoke rooms in restaurants. I've certainly never seen what you are complaining about. So move to a better area. Live in a low-so area, and of course you could have problems. That's the same the world over.

I have no idea of your landlord's situation. Obviously his asking price is too high if he can't sell. ALL condos will sell at the right price. There is no such thing as a condo that can't sell - only people that are asking too much. So maybe he paid too much to begin with. I don't see what that has to do with others who are making good profits.

You're happy renting, so stick with it, but don't knock others that are actually making money from property they've bought. I know plenty of people that have houses and/or condos that have risen in value of the years. Often quite dramatic rises. Just because you don't see this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Maybe you hang out with the wrong crowd. Just read all of this thread and you'll see people who made good profits. Are you saying they should have rented and missed out on the profits? LOL.

Just so you don't understand me, I think it is great to rent if your choice is renting or buying an overpriced condo. But if the choice is renting versus buying a condo at a great price, then buying is the better option, assuming you want to stay there, can afford it, and other considerations.

All the condos I've lived in have had 100-200 units, and I've never even had or heard of one incident of noise or any other issue. Live in a good building and you won't have problems. If people have so many issues with noise and bad behavior, then they are obviously in a bad area. I've only been to Pattaya twice and don't really know it very well, but from what I've seen, I'm not surprised that there are problems there. You only have to walk around for a 5 mins to see how low-so some of it is.

[utalkin2me]

"3) Zoning (lack of enforcement thereof) can make your life miserable. You can buy into a peaceful neighborhood, only to have an all-night karaoke bar or steel foundry to open next week in your neighborhood. You may or may not be able to do anything about it; probably you can't."

This is the main problem. Neighbourhood issues of all types. No matter where you are in Thailand some idiot is pretty much bound to come along and make a noise or worse.

If you can be CERTAIN (short of accidental death) that you will want to live for 20 or 30 years in the place you are thinking of buying, buy it. If however you are like me and are doubtful that you will want to live somewhere for more than a year or three, just rent.

I cant overemphasise the peace of mind that I have when I go to sleep at night in my rented condo, knowing that no matter what happens I can walk away from it and lose absolutely nothing.

Except the rent you pay every month. Yet I do see your point.

Not having bills is what it is all about to some, or maybe I am speaking for myself. Rent is not a small bill either. It is like doing away with one of the big ones.... not your water bill or something. Imagine never having to pay a food bill again for the month. That isn't attainable, but if it was, isn't it worth going for? I guess some think so, others dont.

All I know is the more bills you have, the more you have to work. It is really that simple to me.

Edited February 5, 2013 by utalkin2me

[BlackPuddingBertha]

.... no matter what happens I can walk away from it and lose absolutely nothing.

Except the rent you pay every month. Yet I do see your point.

Not quite. If I walk away I dont lose the rent I have paid as I have had the use of the apartment for that time. As for what I may have lost by renting rather than buying, this is zero as the interest from a sum equivalent to the asking price of my condo deposited in the bank is much greater than my rent, even before costs.

Not having bills is what it is all about to some, or maybe I am speaking for myself. Rent is not a small bill either. It is like doing away with one of the big ones.... not your water bill or something. Imagine never having to pay a food bill again for the month. That isn't attainable, but if it was, isn't it worth going for? I guess some think so, others dont.

All I know is the more bills you have, the more you have to work. It is really that simple to me.

This is definitely true for some, but I'm retired and have enough income to cover my outgoings several times over. If I was still young enough to be working then I would indeed be thinking more about buying than renting, but even so I would only buy a Thai property if it was well under the average asking price. Prices are very screwed up here, I'm sure of it.

[utalkin2me]

Just like when you pay for anything, and consume it, you have in fact lost those funds. They are gone in the end and you are left with nothing.

MAybe we just disagree, but the thing I would bet on (some may say not wise) is that you will at least be breaking even on buying vs selling price unless you do something terribly wrong. That leaves a buyer after say a 5 year period paying no rent, and a renter paying say 10k a month amounting to well north of half a million baht. That is a lot of leos, and a lot of 200 baht ladyboys But if you feel like moving every 6 months sure, rent it up I guess.

Edited February 5, 2013 by utalkin2me

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Just like when you pay for anything, and consume it, you have in fact lost those funds. They are gone in the end and you are left with nothing.

Not at all. I have the interest from the amount equivalent to the value of the condo that I have on deposit in the bank, that otherwise I would have spent on buying the condo. I also have saved the various charges that I have avoided paying because my landlord pays them for me (building fees, cable TV, "one-off" building surcharges for special expenditure).

MAybe we just disagree, but the thing I would bet on (some may say not wise) is that you will at least be breaking even on buying vs selling price unless you do something terribly wrong. That leaves a buyer after say a 5 year period paying no rent, and a renter paying say 10k a month amounting to well north of half a million baht. That is a lot of leos, and a lot of 200 baht ladyboys But if you feel like moving every 6 months sure, rent it up I guess.

That depends on the figures. I pay well under 4% of the asking price of my condo in rent, not even allowing for extra costs like agent's fees, transfer tax, building maintenance fees etc. Even assuming that I get no interest at all for the sum on deposit it would still take me over 25 years of paying rent to have spent the value of the unit. But I do get interest, and in fact at the moment I get more interest than my rent amounts to. Whereas the owner of my unit is trying to sell it (with no takers at all, I might add) for the same price he paid for it several years ago. So in my case I win either way. And of course another part of the calculation is that I will probably be dead in 25 years time, and I think my inheritors and executors in Europe would much rather deal with paper assets than unsellable Thai condos.

As for moving every 6 months, I've been where I am for getting on for two years and intend to stay until the fancy takes me to leave, at which point I will up and go without having to worry about anything more than redirecting my post. This lack of hassle suits me well.

Edited February 5, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[iluvbeaches]

Just like when you pay for anything, and consume it, you have in fact lost those funds. They are gone in the end and you are left with nothing.

Not at all. I have the interest from the amount equivalent to the value of the condo that I have on deposit in the bank, that otherwise I would have spent on buying the condo. I also have saved the various charges that I have avoided paying because my landlord pays them for me (building fees, cable TV, "one-off" building surcharges for special expenditure).

MAybe we just disagree, but the thing I would bet on (some may say not wise) is that you will at least be breaking even on buying vs selling price unless you do something terribly wrong. That leaves a buyer after say a 5 year period paying no rent, and a renter paying say 10k a month amounting to well north of half a million baht. That is a lot of leos, and a lot of 200 baht ladyboys But if you feel like moving every 6 months sure, rent it up I guess.

That depends on the figures. I pay well under 4% of the asking price of my condo in rent, not even allowing for extra costs like agent's fees, transfer tax, building maintenance fees etc. Even assuming that I get no interest at all for the sum on deposit it would still take me over 25 years of paying rent to have spent the value of the unit. But I do get interest, and in fact at the moment I get more interest than my rent amounts to. Whereas the owner of my unit is trying to sell it (with no takers at all, I might add) for the same price he paid for it several years ago. So in my case I win either way. And of course another part of the calculation is that I will probably be dead in 25 years time, and I think my inheritors and executors in Europe would much rather deal with paper assets than unsellable Thai condos.

As for moving every 6 months, I've been where I am for getting on for two years and intend to stay until the fancy takes me to leave, at which point I will up and go without having to worry about anything more than redirecting my post. This lack of hassle suits me well.

It kind of sounds like it is a poor purchase on the landlords side, either location, overpaying or otherwise but I don't think you can describe all property purchases in Thailand over with one example.

[rgs2001uk]

Just like when you pay for anything, and consume it, you have in fact lost those funds. They are gone in the end and you are left with nothing.

Not at all. I have the interest from the amount equivalent to the value of the condo that I have on deposit in the bank, that otherwise I would have spent on buying the condo. I also have saved the various charges that I have avoided paying because my landlord pays them for me (building fees, cable TV, "one-off" building surcharges for special expenditure).

MAybe we just disagree, but the thing I would bet on (some may say not wise) is that you will at least be breaking even on buying vs selling price unless you do something terribly wrong. That leaves a buyer after say a 5 year period paying no rent, and a renter paying say 10k a month amounting to well north of half a million baht. That is a lot of leos, and a lot of 200 baht ladyboys But if you feel like moving every 6 months sure, rent it up I guess.

That depends on the figures. I pay well under 4% of the asking price of my condo in rent, not even allowing for extra costs like agent's fees, transfer tax, building maintenance fees etc. Even assuming that I get no interest at all for the sum on deposit it would still take me over 25 years of paying rent to have spent the value of the unit. But I do get interest, and in fact at the moment I get more interest than my rent amounts to. Whereas the owner of my unit is trying to sell it (with no takers at all, I might add) for the same price he paid for it several years ago. So in my case I win either way. And of course another part of the calculation is that I will probably be dead in 25 years time, and I think my inheritors and executors in Europe would much rather deal with paper assets than unsellable Thai condos.

As for moving every 6 months, I've been where I am for getting on for two years and intend to stay until the fancy takes me to leave, at which point I will up and go without having to worry about anything more than redirecting my post. This lack of hassle suits me well.

It kind of sounds like it is a poor purchase on the landlords side, either location, overpaying or otherwise but I don't think you can describe all property purchases in Thailand over with one example.

I am in a similair position to BPB.

Last year my Thai stocks increased by about 40%, how did the housing market do?

Take a look at the SET performance for say the last 10 years and compare to housing, my best year was 2003, up over 130% in one year alone.

I sleep easy at night knowing, if I want to sell today I can, I wont have to pay anywhere between 3 and 10% to some agent, I dont need to lower my price, and I dont have to wait months for a seller.

The historical data for these stocks and shares is readily available for all to see, can the same be said for housing?

Some cant afford to rent, some choose to rent, If you chose to buy up to you, I never regret the day I never bought someplace, I wonder how many rue the day they ever made a purchase here?

[davejones]

As for moving every 6 months, I've been where I am for getting on for two years and intend to stay until the fancy takes me to leave, at which point I will up and go without having to worry about anything more than redirecting my post. This lack of hassle suits me well.

Now that is something I can relate to. I don't think renting or buying is better in all circumstances.It all depends on the individual and their situation. For someone that likes moving every few years (like I do), then renting is the way to go in Thailand. But for someone with family who wanted to live in a nice house in a specific area, I think buying would probably be the best option. The children would probably be Thai, and they would inherit a house, which would be good for them.

I think what some renters misunderstand though is how rental and property prices can change over 20-30 years. We've all heard stories about people who bought two years ago and now can't sell anywhere near the same price. But have you talked to people who bought 20-30 years ago. Some land is up 100-fold in that time. I'm not saying that will happen in the next 20-30 years, but I think prices are bound to rise as Thailand continues to develop. Don't forget that it's growing at 5-6% a year.

The other things renters leave out of their calculation is rent rises over extended periods of time. They may have rented somewhere for the last 2-3 years with no rent rises, but over 20-30 years, the rent rise will be significant.

So let's look at a concrete example. Suppose someone at 5 million baht in the bank that was earning 4% interest - 200,000 baht/year. Suppose you're also paying that much in rent. So everything is fine for the first few years. But what happens in 20 years when the rent might be 400,000 a year. Then you're going to be using the 5 million capital, and you'll start running out of money quickly. And what if inflation suddenly takes off, and is 10%+ for a few years. Suddenly, your 5 million would seem so good.

I know there are a lot of ifs and buts here, but for someone looking for long-term security, I think buying is the way to go. You can be sure that if inflation is 10%+ for a few years, then property prices and rents will be shooting up as well. And do you really, honestly think a condo that costs 5 million today, won't have risen in value at all over 20-30 years? Look anywhere in the world, even Thailand, and I think you'll be hard-pressed to find many places where property has been stagnant over a few decades. A few war zone areas maybe, but even those pick up eventually.

So don't kid yourself that you will be able to use the interest on your money to pay the rent for 20-30 years.

I'm still renting, but that's because I'll be moving soon and have no real idea of where I will settle down long-term. It may not even be in Thailand. So renting suits my situation right now. But if I decided to stay in on place for at least 10 years, I would definitely buy. But it wouldn't be one of those overpriced shiny new condos.

[Gary A]

Speaking for myself, I hate the idea of paying rent and being controlled by the landlord. The last time I rented, I wanted to hang a clock on my kitchen wall. The rental contract clearly stated that nothing could be hung on the walls. I asked the landlord and he told me that the rules are the rules. No clock. I was also paying about double the government rate for electricity.

No way would I want to control a house with a Thai company. Paying a lawyer, a bookkeeper and filing a tax return every year doesn't appeal to me. Not to mention that the entire scheme could fall apart at any time.

I wouldn't buy a condo for an investment but I did buy one that I liked. My friends told me I was crazy and was paying too much for the unit. Since then the unit has nearly doubled in value not to mention that I got 41 baht to a dollar then. I chose carefully when I bought it and although it is not for sale, it has been and continues to be an excellent investment.

So,to each his own. I would never want to rent for an extended period of time. I am in the middle of a large complex and noise is not and never will be an issue. No crowing roosters or dogs barking. No pets are permitted.

[davejones]

Speaking for myself, I hate the idea of paying rent and being controlled by the landlord. The last time I rented, I wanted to hang a clock on my kitchen wall. The rental contract clearly stated that nothing could be hung on the walls. I asked the landlord and he told me that the rules are the rules. No clock. I was also paying about double the government rate for electricity.

No way would I want to control a house with a Thai company. Paying a lawyer, a bookkeeper and filing a tax return every year doesn't appeal to me. Not to mention that the entire scheme could fall apart at any time.

I wouldn't buy a condo for an investment but I did buy one that I liked. My friends told me I was crazy and was paying too much for the unit. Since then the unit has nearly doubled in value not to mention that I got 41 baht to a dollar then. I chose carefully when I bought it and although it is not for sale, it has been and continues to be an excellent investment.

So,to each his own. I would never want to rent for an extended period of time. I am in the middle of a large complex and noise is not and never will be an issue. No crowing roosters or dogs barking. No pets are permitted.

Something that many on here don't seem to realize is that many projects have strict rules, as with the no pets rule at your complex. So there's no chance of a karaoke bar opening, dogs barking all night, etc.

Glad to hear that you have done so well. About the friends thinking you're crazy - well, friends often think others are crazy just because they're too frightened themselves. Many said I was crazy to move to Thailand. Meanwhile, they are back home complaining how tough life is. But they still think I'm crazy. LOL. Some people just prefer to sit and complain rather than build a good life for themselves. Same with buying condos. It's much easier to come on here and complain about noise and other things, than put in the legwork and find a great condo. And no matter how many people had great success buying a condo, they still cling to their story of the one person they know who can't sell their condo.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Something that many on here don't seem to realize is that many projects have strict rules, as with the no pets rule at your complex. So there's no chance of a karaoke bar opening, dogs barking all night, etc.

And those rules apply outside the building, do they? I dont think so. I can see hundreds if not thousands of other houses, condos, shops, hotels etc etc from my window, and there's nothing I could possibly do to stop them from doing something I dont like, like opening a karaoke bar. Even my lovely view could be partially blocked if some new building went up. I prefer not to buy anything that is potentially subject to that happening as for me my view is very important. So I just rent and retain my get-out-quick card.

Have a read of this:

It's much easier to come on here and complain about noise and other things, than put in the legwork and find a great condo.

? I have a great condo. I found it at a very good price because I put in a lot of legwork. But I dont own it, nor do I want to at the price for which it is on sale.

Edited February 6, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[TommoPhysicist]

The concept of home ownership in Thailand seems to be entirely contrary to my experience in the States. Here are the 3 big issues I see, and why home ownership might not make sense. I would appreciate any additions to the pro's or cons on this list.

1) Buying an owner-occupied home in Thailand is not really a great investment. In developed countries, you might reasonably expect your home value to increase over the years. In Thailand, this is not a realistic expectation. Home value will very likely be flat or go down, so economically buying vs renting may not make sense.

Lots of people in the US haven't seen much of a return on their 'investment'.

I think what some renters misunderstand though is how rental and property prices can change over 20-30 years. We've all heard stories about people who bought two years ago and now can't sell anywhere near the same price. But have you talked to people who bought 20-30 years ago. Some land is up 100-fold in that time. I'm not saying that will happen in the next 20-30 years, but I think prices are bound to rise as Thailand continues to develop. Don't forget that it's growing at 5-6% a year.

Not so good over 20-30 years if you get divorced and the judge gives someone else the house.

Edited February 6, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Rancid]

Do whatever suits your finances, a lump or a stream. I bought in my child's name and the property cost 4 M, I have been here for 6 years so say 1.5 saved in rent, going home for about 6 years soon so say another 1.5 M in the bank when I return. Those figures are minimum rents, when I come back I have a well located house to stay free, later my child has the same. Property now worth at least 6 M, it is a city home so will increase more.

No right or wrong, just about circumstance. Don't like Moobaans as the maintenance at the company's discretion and I don't trust them not to steal. Stand alone better in my opinion, security is a fallacy not an actual issue.